继2010年1月15日，人力资产标准公会（筹）第一次筹备会后，3月10日下午，来自全球著名公司的中国区、亚太区人力资源总监、副总裁及国内高校著名教授聚集于浦东新区政府大楼会议室，召开了第二次筹备会，就发起人力资源从业者公会暨人力资产标准公会（HASA）、人力资源行业规范、社会人才结构、就业等普遍关心的问题进一步展开座谈。会议由浦东新区外商（各地）投资企业协会人力资源专业委员会执委会主任兼人力资源从业者公会联络员张臻先生主持。

第二次发起人代表筹备会纪要（2010.3.10）

上海交通大学安泰工商管理学院教授、博士生导师：

石金涛 教授

今 天很荣幸能来到这里和大家进 行 交流。我认为这个公会的成立

有非常重要的意义。我们交大管理学院院长换届选举就进行了全球的招聘，候选人非常的国际化。我们人力资源管理如果能有国际化导向，那发展就将非常快。今天所探讨的问题和以前的主题都不太一样。以前劳动部有一、二、三级人力资源师考试，我们做教材的时候也尽量借鉴外国教材，但国

际化的程度还是不令人满意。我们的任务在于怎样将国际化的东西变为本土化的？ 我们的最终目的要将国际的东西变为我们的。我认为我们主要面临三个问题： 怎样创新？（要和人家现在搞的不一样）

怎样奉献？（在公会内，人人都应当有一定的贡献。）

怎样共享？（在公会内，愿意奉献的人应当享有获得回报的权利）

想要加快发展的步伐，我认为我们必须做到以下三点 ： 1.权 威 性 ； 2.合 法性；3.普适性（让每一个

HR 从 业 者 都 能 理解）。有一些民营企业，发展得很大，但却没有人力资源管理。当这类民营企业发展到了一定阶段，就失去了竞争力。他们有时会请咨询公司帮忙，但当咨询建立好体系之后走了，就束之高阁了，关键他们自己不懂，无法使用这些成果。我相信管理里面出效率，做好人力资源管理是根本，比如留不住最重要的科研人员的话就会失去了根本的竞争力。我认为我们非常重要的任务之一不是让大家来考证，而是让普通的HR从业人员都能使用。作为一名高校的工作者，我也很期待为这个社会做出点贡献。

主要内容

人力资源官方行业

公会的角色和作用

国际国内人力资源

管理和挑战

国际国内人力资源

专业团体发展状况

联合发起人力资产

标准公会及其体系

建设的探讨

行业标准起草计划

培训流程设计及价

值计量

人力资源从业者公会

筹备办公室

浦东新区外商（各

地）投资企业协会

本期目录

人力资源从业者公会第二

次发起人代表筹备会纪要

1

人力资源从业者公会第一

次起草委员代表会议纪要

6

人力资源从业者公会2010

年4-5月工作计划

10

2010年4月1日 2010年第3期

张臻先生首先就国际国内人力资源管理的挑战、人力资源专业团体的发展现状以及人力资源官方行业公会的职能、任务及成立的必要性进行了阐述。会议中，各位发起人反应热烈，各抒己见，对HASA人力资源从业者公会的筹备和发展规划提出了许多有建设性的期许和规划。

人力资源从业者公会（筹） HR Administrators & Specialists Association

浦东新区外商（各地）投资企业协会 人力资源专业委员会主任

人力资源从业者公会联络员 张臻先生

本期支持机构致谢： 复旦大学

（排名不分先后） 美国西北理工大学

上海博达学院

美亚财产保险

上海交通大学

我对今天讨论的话题非常感兴趣，所以主动想发言。我想谈论几

个问题：1.《国富论》主要讲的就是一个分工问题，这对提高生

产效率很有作用。在香港的麦当劳通常会请一些智障人士，这就

是麦当劳高明的地方，既提高了自己的社会形象，其实也是一种

人尽其才，他们对简单的工作已经完全能胜任了。2.人才到底是

否应该快速复制呢？我一向倡导靠制度和标准来管理人才，而不

是过分体现个性化的方面，通过这种方式，企业快速复制人力资

源管理模式和人才培养模式，组织中的人才才能够快速成长，才

能够满足经营对于人力资源的需求。3.我们现在大部分的CEO，都是从CFO、营销、

技术升上去的。那他们和CHO的差别何在呢？我认为我们在企业中的分工并不明确，

招聘、用人等标准都不清晰，每个CHO做事的风格可以完全不一样。这就是我认为的

CHO和CFO最大的区别。CFO可以通过很多途径了解到业界的相关信息，可以量化工作

成果。而到现在CHO的工作在业内还没有什么可比性。CHO和CFO的差别在有无数字管

理能力，而数字对于企业经营至关重要。我是少数做HR但也管钱的人，我很想提高

HR团队的数字分析能力。一般来说岗位配置、岗位贡献率、劳动生产率等等都是公

司非常核心的信息，我们能否通过一个具有公信力的平台，在保障机密的同时又能

够提供行业参考信息？

4.知识管理：很多东西都可以记录下来，但思想是一样无法刻录的东西。需要通过

公会的成立来综合HR管理，这些将使下一代的HR从业人员收益，帮助他们成功。

当然我们也希望能从中得到一些应有的回报。

页 2 人力资源从业者公会（筹）

立邦涂料中国区人事行政总监钱国新先生（PDI HR执委会副主任）

这个协会成立的重要性已毋庸置疑。我同时相信HR是有标准可建

立的。下次我们或许可以分开探讨：例如Operation HR， Strategic HR and etc.现在市面上也有一些关于HR的调查报告，付钱就可以

参加并且得到报告。但是人家是营利性的，而公会是公益性的，

慢慢我们就可以利用越来越多的会员来做事。当然我也希望从这

里能得到些行业信息。

现在有一些中国企业对外国企业进行收购，即使成功了，最大的

挑战还在之后HR的工作。我们通过公会的这个平台就可以了解到

很多各国的HR的标准，因为公会的成员本身就肯定是来自很多国

家的企业。公会还可以探讨如何提高HR从业人员的素质，比如HR管理中的心理学等

等，因为HR也是一门管理艺术。

阿文美驰亚太区人力资源总监杨群声先生

我在担任人保部国家人力资源师考试的评审时就明显感觉到缺乏

衡量的标准。

HR在平时的工作中最大的挑战就是，用什么数据来说服我们的老

板以及直线经理？他们都是习惯看数据的人。如果HR也可以有标

准，可以拿公式套的话，那就会很容易。我们要用他们的语言来

说服他们，数据是一个桥梁。

南美轮船人力资源部总经理唐蓓莉女士

这个公会如何才能做到有权威性？有需求才能生存。国外的市

场环境比较成熟稳定，在那样的环境下，比较适宜标准化一些

东西。目前国外的HR行业里有很多的标准，我们可以借鉴，但

是国外的市场环境和我们国内的情况又大不相同。我们需要思

考中国市场需求究竟是怎样的？中国的HR最需要什么？我们这

个行业公会任务是什么？

关于HR的行业标准，我认为可能是把双刃剑：这个HR标准一旦

制定，一方面对公司正确决策起到重要参考作用，另外一方

面，如果盲目使用标准，生搬硬套，可能不适合本企业发展，对HR管理带来许多

压力。

由于我们大家的社交圈、从事的行业大不一样，我们应该多将我们的经验分

享给自己人，这样也会有更多的人受益，并且愿意加入到公会里面来。这应该是

公会的作用之一。

谈到普适性，我比较关注的一点是，我们公会的宗旨和名称应该更具有广泛

代表性。建立行业标准应该是这个公会的使命之一，而不是其全部内容。公会应

该吸纳更多的会员加入这个公会，这些会员除了来自跨国企业以外，应该更多来

自中资、内资实体。我们不能仅靠有限的个别企业就能够代表整个HR业界的声

音。

我们公司是一个制造业企业。每年在进行预算规划的时候，HR

部门碰到最头疼的问题往往是如何寻找行业标杆。现在我们能

做的只能拿公司内部过去的标准来衡量人力是否足够，但是没

有很有说服力的行业的数据可以借鉴。由于生产线不一样、人

力成本的不一样，会造成HR工作中有很大的差异，这也正是因

为没有统一的标准。

页 3 2010年第3期

美亚财险人力资源副总裁王毅女士

伊顿液压亚太区人力资源总监王芳女士

我对这个公会的成立很兴奋，同时也有忧虑。成立公会这个做

法很好，我曾经在海外工作过相当长的时间，国外许多行业，

例如律师、会计师、医师等等都有全行业性的公会。行业公会

通过公信力，往往对行业的发展拥有很大的影响力。行业公会

可以建立标准、准则来规范行业的发展、纠正行业内不正常的

现象，还可以帮助提升从业人员的水平，培养新一代的接班

人。当然，我们也可以借助这个行业公会和政府部门沟通，比

如社保、养老金等问题，协助政府的公共决策更具有操作性。

这将会是一个很好的交流平台。目前国内许多行业现在大多已有自己的协会，我

们要成立HR的行业公会也面临着一个挑战，就是我们要明确这个行业公会的宗旨

和目标，就是我们这个公会能够起到什么作用？

世邦魏理仕中国区人力资源董事杨鲜红女士

页 4

我们的预期目标是什么？我认为，

1.HR管理固然是一种艺术，但我们也需要一些科学的东西，能够

帮助我们规范地完成艺术的HR工作。

2.行业标杆是非常必要的。标杆就像给公司来一个体检，有一个

健康的指标范围。如果超出的话可以作为一种提醒，是否自己的

公司有做的不够理想的地方。

3.可以科学角度丰富初级的HR从业人员的知识。4.通过行业准

则，可以协助政府规范行业行为。5.通过集中行业的声音和反

馈，可以为政府公共决策起到建言建议的作用。目前北京FESCO公司（北京对外服务

公司）有一个外企人力资源协会，他们在北京市制定劳动管理条例时，为政府提供

了很好的建议，代表HR业界影响了公共决策，为企业创造了更好的投资环境。HASA

作为一家行业性公会，不同于任何商业机构的所属的人力资源俱乐部，它的立场应

该更具广泛的代表性和中立性，我们要想清楚这个协会应该怎样定位？是否能够成

为一个具有客观评判企业HR管理水平的组织，或是其它的什么作用？

葛兰素史克中国人力资源总监蒋靖先生

今天的讨论很有价值。每个地方的HR的情况都不同。对于中国来

说不同的是人力不一样。现在中国人力资源成本增长了很多，与

周边地区相比，马来西亚可能更便宜，因为他们有来自印尼和菲

律宾的人。中国内陆比沿海更便宜。大的跨国企业在法规遵守方

面做得比较规范，如何帮助其它企业创造良好的经营环境？我们

可以怎样协助政府？在劳动法规的制订和实施方面代表HR提出可

行性建言？现在很多HR从业者非常独立自我。我们很愿意拿出经

验和大家分享，也希望在这个网络中得到信息。这样，才能促使

HR的信息、经验的共享。我们通过公会的力量，可以对新生代的

HR进行指导，这样也能促进整个HR行业的从业人员水平的提升。

当我们谈到HR的时候，我们非常关注全球化的问题。但是，HR本土化也非常重要。

印度也有很多HR的网络，他们通过这个平台，建立了圈内的联系，分享经验和成功

的做法。我们需要注意的是，有的行业组织慢慢地会失去吸引力，我们要思索HASA

公会如何才能为成员和HR行业带来帮助和回报。成立这个协会的动机非常好，我们

有一些争论也是有益的。如果我们能建立一些标杆、标准，那么对我们实际工作中

的沟通和帮助将更有效。我们需要保持这样的热情。

伟创力中国人力资源高级总监Menon Jayesh先生

最近，我正在为我手下的HR团队策划一本有关HR管理的教材。我

认为，现在社会上的很多HR教科书、参考书有所缺憾，很重要的

一点就是缺乏实战经验，无论从视角还是实操作性来说，这些书

籍都并不适合直接应用在企业经营中。现在的HR要做好工作，很

重要的一点就是要理解组织对人力资源的需求。组织在经营中对

人力资源的需求是什么？不同的阶段这种需求有否变化？这些将

直接决定HR的角色和工作内容。HASA的发起人都是企业中资深的

HR高层，我们都有丰富的实战经验。如果我们每个人都把自己做

的那块，比如薪酬、培训、招聘里面最精髓的部分总结出来，快速地培训新人，那

人才就可以做到快速复制。

好孩子集团人力资源副总裁李春先生

人力资源从业者公会（筹）

页 5 2010年第3期

一般职业协会都与司法机关、部门是挂钩的。国外的此类协会

通常都是很权威的，权力相当大的。我们是否将来可能与人保

部挂钩？

HR在日常工作中，可能遇到的最重要的问题之一，就是与国家

法律法规有关的一些事务，比如招聘录用、培训认证、薪酬社

保等。这些工作目前都是由企业的HR直接与政府劳动行政管理

部门直接接洽办理的。这样的方式，既耗费大量的HR的精力，

也降低了政府劳动行政部门的管理效率。

我们是否能够和政府部门建立联系，拟订行业规范和准则，并经过政府的授权。

通过这些行业准则，来规范企业在人力资源管理方面的行为。这样，HASA的认证

将能够协助政府履行对企业人力资源管理方面的监管，通过HASA认证的企业在人

力资源管理上将做得更为规范和专业。

阿科玛中国人力资源总监叶诚为先生

国内目前许多行业都有行业协会，比如保险业、银

行业。港台地区和海外还有许多从业人士的公会，比如

医师公会、会计师公会、建筑师公会等等。作为管理社

会劳动力大军的人力资源管理团队，我们这个职业非常

重要，我们自身的素质和管理水平将会直接影响到能否

达成国家经济发展的目标、能否优化人才结构、能否提

高劳动力素质、能否促进社会就业等等宏观经济的战略

目标。国家制订的许多经济发展规划，都需要每个经济

实体、每家公司去具体落实，而这些都是与人力资源密

切相关的。目前，我们HR却没有行业公会，力量非常薄

弱。

那么人力资源管理究竟能给社会什么贡献？交大的

石金涛教授曾经参与一项国家人力资源发展规划的提案

的起草，从人才发展的角度为政府制订产业发展的核心

人才保留、发展提供了非常专业的观点。这就是人力资

源管理者非常重要的贡献之一。

虽然国内外已经有许多标准、证书，但是我们要做

的并不是要去否定他人的成果，相反，我们要在他们的

基础上增加价值。作为行业公会来说，我们应该参考、

汲取前人的工作成果，并充分利用行业公会拥有与时俱

进的行业一线经验和广泛代表性这一特性，检验前人的

专业成果，并化理论为实操，通过行业公会的机制，在

为促进中国的人力资源管理水平、规范人力资源行业行为、为国家在人才发展、社会就业等问题上献计献

策、积极行动，承担HR专业人士的社会责任。经发起人筹备会研究决定，将公会宗旨概括为：

承担政府和经济实体在人力资源管理方面的桥梁纽带作用。从人力资源管理角度与政府保持沟通互动，提供决

策依据，为人力资源管理营造良好社会环境、为保证经济增长的质量和效益，加速现代产业体系的建设做出贡

献。

通过建立行业规范、标杆与准则、专业人才培养、信息交流等工作，培养人力资源管理后继人才，促进各产业

的人力资源管理水平的提升。

配合政府提升社会劳动力素质、优化人才结构，推动社会就业。

后记 整个行业内部达成最大共识。这样产生出来的行业规

范、准则才具备普适性。才能真正为HR人士所认可和使

用。我们今天讨论的目的之一就是向大家反馈第一次筹

备会有争议的议题或者有必要深入探究的议题。这个行

业公会的作用不应该很局限，其衍生的功能应该有很

多。我们两次筹备会都由发起人组成，虽然有不少HR资

深人士作为发起人，由于地域和工作的安排关系，尚不

能亲自参会，但是他们也在会前会后给予了我们许多的

宝贵意见、建议。

公会的发起人所在的企业都是国际国内知名企业、

在这个行业内都处于领头羊地位。虽然发起人不能包括

所有的企业，但是通过行业内标杆企业的HR工作的标

准，完全可以代表HR这个行业的发展趋势。公会既可以

教导的HR从业人员的接班人，也可以作为一座与政府沟

通的桥梁，加强本土的HR的操作能力及为跨国公司本土

化贡献力量。

必须强调的一点是，行业公会不同于学术团体或一

般的自发民间组织。作为行业公会，我们代表整个HR行

业，我们既要保护我们自身的利益，为HR这个行业更好

的发展搭建平台，创造更好的环境，促进交流沟通，争

取应得的权益，同时，作为管理社会劳动力大军的一支

队伍，我们必须要承担社会责任，

第一次起草委员代表会议纪要（2010.3.26）

复旦大学教授、博士生导师

张文贤 教授

非常高兴

今天能够

与大家探

讨这个话

题。我 们

之前已经

进行过多

次的类似

活动

今天的主

题主要还是围绕着如何把建立中

国特色的人力资产标准的问题引

向深入。

选择培训这个模块，也是会前我

征询过多方意见，发现大多数人

还是在这个模块上存在迷茫和理

解上的误区。目前培训市场的供

给存在不规范，不细，而且效果

又差。最后回归到企业内，又是

人力资源部门担了花钱花精力，

没有效果的责任。

但是不能就此否定培训本身的价

值，我认为培训是一项投资，实

实在在的投资，一项可以计量的

创造价值的投资，而不是一种成

本花费。

培训是核心竞争力的源泉；我们

一直提倡提高核心竞争力，那么

从何着手？要从培训着手。所以

培训是战略的关键，执行力的基

础，成功的秘密武器。

我们从一些知名企业的案例介绍了

培训过程就是培训需求的预测，确

定培训对象，确定培训内容，选择

培训方式，测量培训效果，计量培

训价值。

现在回到培训生成时的效果，就是

我们的培训部。前年，金融危机，

培训部被裁掉的不在少数，可以看

出培训部的定位，在人力资源部门

的定位，在整个企业的定位它存在

着问题。

所以，培训的贡献到底在哪里是我

们要深究的。

还有培训的评估模型，目前世界

上，在国际视野，在这个领域，研

究到什么程度呢，也就是一级评

估、二级评估到三级评估、四级评

估，已经开始提出五级评估，但是

这种五级评估还没有真正的答案。

什么是五级评估 ，就是培训后创

造的价值要给予量化，就是提出设

想，但是真正把培训后创造的效果

量化还没有研讨出一个结果。

介绍一下四级评估，看看在座各位

所在的企业评估现在处在什么阶

段。第一阶段，反应：对哪些方面

感到满意，这个大多数停留在一级

评估阶段上。 第二阶，学习，不是

讲表面效果如何，满意程度，而是

讲学到了什么，上课的实质内容你

是否掌握了，学到了什么；第三阶

段：行为，学了这东西就是你的行

为是否发生变化。第四阶段，行为

变化对组织是否产生积极的影响。

经过培训以后，行为发生变化，当

然产生结果了，这个结果是否对组

织绩效产生效果，还有待考验。

我们今天讲的是绩效投资回报率，

就是培训效果好坏要靠数据说话。

会计上来说讲的就是成本跟收益，

成本就分为直接成本、间接成本、

开发成本、日常成本、学习者薪

酬，也就是说如果把培训的成本计

量出来，把它分解归纳，那么需要

想想直接成本、间接成本、开发成

本、日常成本、学习者薪酬都是什

么。

我们接下来的重点就是收益：我们

需要好好了解研究的。

我今天特别高兴，觉得我们这里是

高级研习班，我们是出成果的，全

世界还没有真正哪个像平衡积分卡

这样的成果出来，我希望我们从这

里能够产生这样类似的成果，就在

座各位大家群策群力，用大家的智

慧，因为我们有基础，如果说我们

人力资源从业者公会（筹）

通 过前几次研讨会议，人力资源从业者公会的筹备

工作已经达成了一些初步共识，这些内容将汇总成文件，

在每月的简报中刊出。当筹备工作进展到一定阶段，就可以按照国家规定法定程序正式注册全

国性的协会组织。目前起草委员会相关文件已在草拟中，届时也将积极广泛征求起草委员会成

员的意见。 今天的活动，将以培训模块为探讨方向。在接下来的活动中我们会陆续对HR的各个模块进行类

似探讨。 今天的活动安排，首先请张教授分享他在培训数量化的研究与实践内容，同时介绍一些他的心

得。之后，请大家对其中的一些观点从自己的实际操作经验出发提出建议。我们在综合各方面

意见后，将考虑培训模块做为试点的可行性。

浦东新区外商（各地）投资企业协会 人力资源专业委员会主任

人力资源从业者公会联络员 张臻先生

页 6

页 7

接上页

现在这些越来越尖端的事情要一般的小企业、民营企业来谈，那简直是有点差得太远了，他基础工作都没

做好。而在座各位已经在HR领域越来越接近顶峰了。这对于建立我们人力资源资产是一个突破，这个工作

是开创性的，因为人家没有做的，我们要把最后的结果量化，也正因为量化难，所以很多人没有去做。

为了把培训效果更好量化，我主张从项目开始，根据专业性质，培训对具体项目带来什么样的结果，收效

产生了什么，就是可行的。即使无法把培训结果具体量化到Money，但是可以看到提高，也就是可行的。提

高企业的核心竞争力的手段之一其实就是降低成本。培训对产品成本，节约原材料、节约能源、减少废品

等都有影响，在各个方面都会加强成本竞争优势，对市场营销，产品创新、技术开发等可能更容易见效。

相比而言，通过资本运作的方法难度比较大,可能因为有些资本运作需要有高手的。

我本身有会计背景的工作经验，培训收益量化比较难，以前工厂的培训基本上考量到培训绩

效，做完培训后要求参加培训者写Performance Improvement的Action Plan，三个月后HR培训经

理要去跟该培训者Follow up一下考量一下他哪些东西指标提高，是否达到指标，曾经做过一

段时间这样的观察，但关键的要把它真正量化成Money，这种形式是蛮难的，花费的功夫多，

当然看得到效益。

我们的标准就是求同存异，大家讨论的就是共性东西，我们要做的也是把共性的东西总结起

来，具体到不同企业，可根据各自要求背景进行相关调整。依靠张教授的学院的研究派背景，

建立数学模型，就是我们要讨论的重点。

南美轮船人力资源部总经理唐蓓莉女士

收益指的大致就是运营指标的改善，绩效的变化也是需要量化的地方，比如生产部门生产工

人在安全方面的问题，比如工伤减少，误工费的降低，加班费降低，这样成本也降低；品质

变化方面：比如食品行业，生产设备高级，花费大，如果员工不懂操作会造成浪费，通过培

训做一些测试的话我们可以减少一些费用、损失，影响企业信誉。

态度变化：大多老板现在希望员工不管做什么岗位“态度第一，能力第二”，员工工作态度

积极主动的话，老板会觉得较为满意。我们培训的时候讲究一些礼仪或者借鉴一些接近的工

厂的比较好的地方，就是希望员工在工作上的态度变化就是有可能你拿着这份工资，有可能

做的超过这份工资，这是每个老板都需要的。

Robinson集团人力资源负责人余翠琴女士

培训者交由Line Manager管理，由其规范他们的行为，进行后续跟踪。因为培训涉及的人很

多，难以跟踪每个人，会分配到每个部门的经理或者直线上级，我们在分类以后会有提交，

在提交之后由Line Manager跟我们提交，协助一起Involve到这个团队。

一方面看Line Manager对培训的重视程度，然后看他的Action最后的计划，对公司的Coach 也

有要求，等于是与Line Manager的绩效挂钩。

李宁公司代表刘琴琴女士

人力资源从业者公会（筹） 2010年第3期

页 8

我想说也要看你的培训到底是大规模的，还是针对一个人的特别技巧。如果是很大人群的话，

那是很难去看到你的回报率是什么，你的回报到底是怎样去计量，但是如果是很有目的去做的

话就很容易去看了。

我们很注重培训，培训的时候我们有自己的计划，培训后看多少员工有成功的例子，他们回报

是否跟培训前后有分别，看看这个效果是否是培训的效果，还是市场的效果，正常情况下很难

区分，但是可以看到趋势是好是坏。我们把公司所有项目都分类，看回报率到底跟我们的业务

怎样挂钩，与成果怎样挂钩。

开利亚州人力资源总监莫庆鸾女士

培训量化是个伪命题，人的行为发生变化难以从培训角度衡量，培训后的评估奖励惩罚很难做

到，因为这是一个很大系统造成的变化，但从一个角度看待难以做到。从管理培训的角度来

看，培训有三个方面的需求：一、确保培训计划跟生意问题联系，在执行过程中把培训目标具

体化；二、培训实施过程中，确保参加者各人清楚要解决的问题，把他们的需求具体化。对培

训结果要按照这个人的具体问题的解决程度来评估；三、知识管理方面：要让培训持续改进，

重要的问题是培训后留下的材料由其他的培训者来讲授也能达到很好的效果，这会使得培训的

知识管理做得较好。所有的培训都应围绕这三条去做，这样的话培训的管理者就会清楚重点是

什么，每个重点当中如何处理。

从心理学角度，人的行为难以从某个行为进行测评，例如销售额的提高，不单方面是培训效果，这是一个系统性

很强的行为，对其进行分解可能会有所帮助。

1995年到大陆第一份工作是培训经理，到目前为止，ROI难以定义。

这个过程中，甚至做Interview时，应聘者问到公司福利如何，之中还问到培训怎样，就是等于

把培训当作是一项福利。作为非常重视专业技能的水处理公司，我们新员工进来，有各自的队

伍：销售、技术等。比如销售的，进来没有马上有销售奖金，新进人员要培训半年到九个月时

间，一半时间到现场一般时间到公司上班，主管根据评估标准认为该员工够资格产出了，其才

可以凭业绩与销售奖金挂钩，挂钩起来会使得他们比较努力，比较有积极性。很难达到公平制

定评估制度，都是按照“尽量客观性主观判断”的KPI指数衡量的。

陷入僵持的标准就会有对错、是非之分，僵持跟争议也就多起来。我们需要的是一个大框架大原则，能够供所有

企业参考利用。

好孩子集团人力资源副总裁李春先生

纳尔科大中华区人力资源总监陈正洁先生

从总经理的角度来看，与会各位提出的人力资源问题比较细化，大家公司性质不一样，所属行

业不同，难以达成共识，建议张教授从学术角度提出培训基本框架，模块模式，各HR提供大

量数据进行总结进行验证，结果可以调动大家积极性，大家达成一致。从我们所在区域进行研

究，慢慢发挥作用，起到一定影响进而影响其他地区、全国。按照现状，过宽的范围难以被普

遍接受。

重机中国副总经理严俊德先生

量化是可能的，关键是企业愿意投入多少时间精力来规范。我公司属于汽车配件行业，非常

重要的就是CI，这主要是针对Workflow的，这是可量化的，我们也正着手于此，所以基本上

我们的员工加入以后就对他们进行培训，教他们许多工具，培训后他们进行选题，对课件上

可以进行改进的东西都是可以量化的。关于Social Skill 和Leadership这一块效果量化也是可行

的，比如说团队领导的培训。

当然还得考虑其他因素，比如Compensation其他等因素也会使得结果提高，但在做培训分析量

化时，我们会剔除那些不相关问题，对员工调查问卷会让他们指出与培训不大相关的问题，

然后根据相关的Item的weighting多少，最后就会有量化的结果。具体问题就在于其相关程度有

多大，然后就是关键程度。这个模型是可以的，但是需要很多的案例、数据、分析。如果有很多企业把数据结合

在一起，那么肯定会发现某一指标跟另一指标具有相关性，关联度肯定是有的。员工满意度提高有时并非

Leadership的培训效果，可能是一些HR 和Policy。

我们所做的调查表有具有一定针对性，比如刚刚提到的Leadership，就会有Leadership Behavior的调查，那就是考

察领导的行为对员工影响的问卷，但是所耗费人力财力很大。

阿文美驰亚太区人力资源总监杨群声先生

我们刚刚谈到的核心问题不是培训结果如何量化的问题，而是培训如何进行绩效评估的问

题，绩效评估本身存在难点，能量化的都量化了，不能量化的我们不能为了量化而量化。

我们在企业中所做的绩效评分卡，对销售部门、生产部门来说，它的行为是单一的，它能够

得出量化的结果，但是对于非业务部门，研发部门、行政部门、财务部门和其他企业部门，

它们的行为本身不是单一的行为，拿它们进行量化本身就是一个很难的问题。

碰到另一个就是绩效的量化的难题，它是一个很难做到的概念，绩效辅导是必需的。进行培

训后产生的ROI的产生可能需要很长的时间，但是相对是可以衡量的。培训不是万能的，关键

在于培训后制度、行为中一定要发生变化，这是核心的问题，考核时Policy必须跟上。对培训

结果量化不是我们最终目的，可衡量即可。

MeziMedia人力资源总监陈镭先生

培训效果的不是单一从财富、钱的角度计量的。我们需要的是一个可

以共用的标准，使大家有直观的印象。我们需要一个流程性的东西，

比如一些知名咨询公司的职务评估，是结合了大多数行业公认的、与

企业的经营有关、与岗位价值有关的的标准从而进行评估。

世界上没有绝对标准，我们需要一个标准化的模型，通过大家公认的

评估方法，流程具有很强共通性，标杆需要大量数据支撑，从统计学

上就能得出结果将会看到相关性。我们相关人员执笔起草，然后通过

起草委员会审核，大家提出意见，然后提交给发起人大会赞同后的标

准已经相当大程度上代表了行业中间的一些趋势，我们这些企业无法

完全代表行业，我们的企业大多是行业里的、全球范围内的领头羊，

是在行业中的标杆性企业，在市场份额中占有很大部分，而且我们通

过专业的研讨后得出的结果，相信其他中小企业也会受到相关行业影

响，这是市场推广手段，对新一代的HR的培养、对管理的提高都将

会有很大帮助。

后记 起草委员会2010年4月-6月工作计划

截止日期 内容 参与人

2010年4月 发起人名单提案 起草委员会

2010年5月 公会章程起草 起草委员会

2010年6月 发起人名单审议 发起人大会

2010年6月 公会章程审议 发起人大会

2010年7月- 进入法定审批程序 筹备委员会

人力资源从业者公会（筹） 页 9 2010年第3期

页 10 人力资源从业者公会（筹）

中国上海东方路135号1007室

电话: 86-21-51308587 传真: 86-21-51308586 电子邮件: contact@hasa.org.cn PDI.HRC@gmail.com 网址： http://www.hasa.org.cn http://pdi.org.cn

人力资源从业者公会筹备办公室

浦东新区外商（各地）投资企业协会

旨，拟订具有中国特色的、符

合本土特点的人力资源管理

行业公约、行业规范及标准。

起草委员会的成立和发起人

大会机制的确立，标志着公会

前期筹备工作的圆满成功，也

标志着公会已经启动了正式

成立的法定程序。

根据计划，起草委员会将于

2010年6月前拟订完成公会的

章程草案及发起人名单，并由

公会发起人大会审议通过。

2010年7月起，按照相关法律

程序，相关文件将由政府部门

提交国家主管部门审核批复。

为庆祝人力资源从业者公会

暨人力资产标准公会的前期

筹备圆满完成暨起草委员会

成立。经研究决定，公会特定

于2010年4月23日晚（周五）举

行庆祝酒会。我们将邀请公会

筹委会、上海市、浦东新区各

级领导、HASA起草委员会成

员、HASA发起人莅临会场，庆

在中国各级政府以及有关主

管部门的关心和支持下，自

2009年12月起，来自全球及

国内300余家著名企业的海内

外HR高层人士、公司决策

层、知名院校人力资源管理

及工商管理学界的权威学

者，经过逾4个多月的前期准

备工作和大量的探讨，共同

发起了人力资源从业者公会

暨 人 力 资 产 标 准 公 会

（HASA）（筹）。人力资源

从业者公会暨人力资产标准

公会（筹）将注册成为国家

级的人力资源行业社团。公

会不限制成员的国籍、成员

的 地 域、种 族、宗 教、性

别、年龄、国籍、投资方的

来源地。 2010年4月，经过政府审批，公

会发起人大会决定成立起草

委员会，起草委员会将围绕着

公会服务于HR行业、促进人

才发展与推动社会就业的宗

祝这一里程碑的时刻。我们诚

挚地邀请您作为HASA公会的

发起人拨冗光临本次酒会，见

证这一中国人力资源业界的

标志性事件。如蒙光临，请发

送 确 认 邮 件 至

contact@hasa.org.cn。我 们

将在收到您的回复后发送正

式邀请函。

人力资源从业者公会（筹）起草委员会成立启动仪式暨酒会预告

酒 会 时 间 ： 2010年 4 月 23 日 17:30-21:30

酒会地点：上海浦东新区杨高南路 889 号 东锦江索菲特大酒店旋转餐厅

泊车：东锦江索菲特大酒店地下车库

地铁：4号线、6号线

2010年 四月

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2010年4月-2010年5月HASA会议及学术活动安排

日期 主题 地点 时间

2010年4月10日 HASA起草委员会第二次会议 （中英文）

上海 闸北区人民政府 13:30-17:00

2010年4月14日 后危机时代灵活用工模式及雇主策略研讨会（中文）

上海 浦东淳大万丽酒店扬子厅

13:30-17:00

2010年4月23日 HASA公会起草委员会成立酒会（中英文）

上海 东锦江索菲特 旋转餐厅 18:00-21:00

2010年5月26日 HASA人力资源服务商第一次研讨会（中英文）

暂定 13:30-17:00

与会人员

外企、中资企业高层HR人士、公司高层决策人员、学界专家

外企、中企HR基层、中层人士

政府代表、HASA发起人、起草委员会委员

人力资源服务商

2010年5月14日 直接对话-与HR高管面对面系列主题沙龙（中文）

上海 浦东新区合欢路2号市民中心3楼A1会议室

13:30-17:00 外企、中企HR基层、中层人士

2010年4月16日 直接对话-与HR高管面对面系列主题沙龙（中文）

上海 浦东新区合欢路2号市民中心3楼A1会议室

13:30-16:30 外企、中企HR基层、中层人士

日 一 二 三 四 五 六

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2010年 五月

2010年第3期

Following the success of the first preparatory session for Human Assets Standards Association (Preparatory), on March 10th, 2010, the authoritative experts from reputable institutions, and HR Directors and VPs of China or Asia Pacific region from over 20 world-famous corporations gathered together again to have a second pre-paratory session. They had further discussed the topics that have general concerns such as the founding of Human Assets Standards Associations (HASA), the standards of HR industry, the personnel structure of the society, and employment, etc. The conference was held by Mr. Kevin S. Cheung, the Director General of Ex-ecutive Committee, Human Resources Commission of PDI and the Coordinator of HASA.

Meeting Minutes for 2nd Preparatory Session (March 10, 2010)

Prof. Jin-Tao Shi Professor from Shanghai Jiao Tong University, Ph.D Advisor

I ’m honored to be here and communi-cate with all of you to-day. I think it’s of great significance

to establish an industry association like this. There is a general election of the Dean of Antai Business School this year. We select the candidates from all over the world. If the Human Resource Man-agement is internationalization-oriented, it would be developed much faster. The topics discussed today are quite different compared with previous ones. The Minis-try of Labor used to issue certificates for Human Resource Specialists (Level 1, 2

and 3). While we were compiling the teaching materials for the test, we also tried to draw on the experience of foreign materials, but it is still not international enough. We suppose to transit internationalization to localization, which is our ultimate goal. I think we are facing three problems at the moment: How to innovate? (We should be

different from any other associa-tions); How to contribute? (Everyone in

the association should contribute); How to share? (Whoever contrib-

uted in the association should have the rights to get rewarded).

In order to speed up the develop-ment, I think that we should have three characteristics: 1. Authority, 2. Legality, and 3. Universality (let every HR practitioner understand). Some private enterprises have been

growing really quick, but do not have any Human Resource Man-agement. When these kinds of private enterprises develop to certain level, they will lose competitiveness in the market. Some of them would hire consulting companies to work for them for a while. How-ever, the HR systems would not be probably used once set up. The reason is that they don't understand the systems at all, so they can't take benefits from that. I believe that management could enhance efficiency, and good HRM is the key to achieve that. For example, if you can't keep the core R&D staff, you will lose core competitive-ness. I think one of our most important tasks is not to issue certifi-cates, but to set up the standards that could be used by every HR practitioner. As an academic staff in university, I'm more than happy to contribute myself to this community.

Main Contents

Role and functions of official HR associations

Challenges of both domestic and overseas HR manage-ment

Discussion on the develop-ment of both domestic and overseas professional HR associations

Discussion on jointly found-ing the HR Administrators & Specialists Association

Drafting plan

Process design and evalua-tion for training

Preparatory Office of HASA Pudong New Area Association of Enterprises with Foreign (Domestic) Investment

Contents

Meeting minutes for 2nd Pre-paratory session of HASA

1

Meeting minutes for 1st draft-ing committee meeting

6

Working Schedule for April-May of 2010

10

April 1st, 2010 No. 201003

Kevin first started with the challenges of Human Resource Management both within China and in the world. He also elaborated the development of HR professional groups and the functions, the objectives and the necessity of founding an officially-sanctioned HR association. The attendees proposed their opinions and expectations of founding HASA, the professional association for HR practitioners one after another. The following are main cited speeches from the participants.

人力资源从业者公会（筹） HR Administrators & Specialists Association

Mr. Kevin S. Cheung (Zhen Zhang) Director General PDI, HR Commission Coordinator of HASA

Special Acknowledgements to: Fu Dan University

(Listed with no special orders) Northwest Polytechnic University

BoDa College

Chartis Insurance

Shanghai Jiao Tong University

I'm very interested in today's topics, so volunteer to speak. I want to address several issues: 1. The Wealth of Nations mainly talks about allocating, which helps a lot in improving productivity. McDonald’s in Hong Kong usually would hire some mentally retarded people to work for them. This is so smart be-cause this would largely promote the social image, plus those people are fully capable for the job. 2. Can talents be duplicated fast? I always propose to manage personnel by systems and standards rather than showing too much individuality. In this way, corporations are able to duplicate the HRM models and training models, so the human resources in the organizations could grow faster thus meet the need of Human Resource for running the business. 3.

Now most of CEOs are promoted from CFOs or marketing and technical positions. What are their differences compared with CHOs? I think that our role in the companies is not clear enough. The standards for recruiting and employment are not clear at all. Every CHO could have totally different working style, which I believe is the biggest difference compared with the CFO. CFOs can obtain industrial information through various channels. The outcome of work is able to be quantified. How-ever, CHOs do not have such comparability within the industry. The difference between CFO and CHO is clearly the ability to manage data, which is crucial to an organization's operation. I'm one of the a few HR professionals who also take care of both HRM and finance. I'm eager to improve the ability of analyzing data throughout my HR team. Generally speaking, the job design, contribution rate and labor productivity and etc. are core information of an organization. Can we offer HR industrial reference through a credible platform with confidentiality? 4. Knowledge management: many things can be recorded, but thoughts can’t . We should consolidate the essence of HRM through HASA, so the next generation of HR professionals can be benefited and be more successful. In conclusion, I believe it is necessary to establish an association like HASA for HR industry. I'm willing to contribute myself, and meanwhile, take benefits from it as well.

Page 2 人力资源从业者公会（筹）

Mr. Owen Qian (Guo-Xin Qian), HR & Admin Director from Nippon Paint (Vice Director General of PDI HR Commission)

There is no doubt that it’s so important to establish HASA. I also believe that HR could have standards established. Next time we may discuss about the topics per the HR modules like: Operation HR, Strategic HR, etc. There are some HR reports in the market. Now that you can pay and get. But those organizations are operated for profits, unlike HASA, a non-profit association. Eventually we can have more members to contribute. Certainly, I’d get some industrial information from the association as well. Nowadays some Chinese enterprises are trying to acquire foreign companies, even if they succeed, what most challenges is HR issues afterwards. Through HASA, we can learn about the HR standards in different countries, because the members of the

association are from various parts of the world. Moreover, HASA may also discuss about how to im-prove the competencies of HR practitioners: for example, the application of psychology in HRM and etc., because HR is also type of Art.

Mr. Jason Yang (Qun-Sheng Yang), HR Director-AP from Arvin Meritor

I am the examiner of the National Human Resource Specialist Test, I strongly feel the lack of measurement criteria. The biggest challenge that faces us everyday is what data we can use to convince our bosses and line managers, who are used to reading data. If HR has standards and can be interpreted by formula, that would be much easier. We should use their language to con-vince them and statistics is such a bridge.

Ms. Julie Tang (Bei-Li Tang), HR General Manager from CSAV

No. 201003

How to be an authoritative association? We can only survive when there are needs. The foreign markets are comparatively mature and stable, so it is suitable for standardi-zation. Though we can refer to the standards of foreign HR industry, however, foreign markets are quite different from ours. We need to think about what the Chinese mar-kets need, what Chinese HR practitioners need, and what are the objectives of our industry association? Speaking of the industrial standards for HR, I believe it could be a double-edged sword. Once the HR standards are established, they will help the companies to make right decisions, however on the other hand, it could put a lot pressure on HRM if the

organization tries to follow the standards regardless what they really need. Since we are from different social networks and industries, we should share our experience more with others. By that means, more people will be benefited and be willing to join HASA. This should also be one of the ob-jectives. In terms of universality, I would concentrate on the name of our association, which should have more broad representativeness. To set the industry standards could be one of the association's missions, but not all. The association should advocate more people to join as members. Besides those from multinationals, we need more members from local entities as well. We can't rely on limited organizations to represent the entire HR industry.

Our company is a manufacturing company. Every year when we prepare the budget, the HR department have difficulty in finding industrial benchmarks. Now we can do is only to measure the sufficiency of workforce by referring to historical standards of the company. There’s no convincing statistics of the industry that we can use for reference. Regarding the different production lines and the different costs of workforce, there’s big variance in HR management. This is also due to the lack of standards.

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Ms. Yi Wang, VP of HR from Chartis Insurance

Ms. Vivian Wang (Fang Wang), HR Director-AP from Eaton

I’m very excited learning about the establishment of HASA, meanwhile, have concerns as well. It is good to have such an association. I’ve been working overseas for quite a long time. Many industries there have associations: for example, lawyers, accountants, doctors and etc., they all have industry-wide associations. The industrial associations usually have significant impact on the industry’s development through credibility. Indus-try associations can set up standards and guidelines to regulate the industrial develop-ment, correct irregular phenomena and help to enhance the professional levels of new practitioners. Certainly, with the help of HASA, we can also communicate with the gov-ernment to improve the feasibilities of decision-making, like social securities, pension

and etc.. This will become a great platform for communication. In China, at this moment, many industries al-ready have associations. If we want to establish the association for HR industry, we are facing the challenge that we need to figure out the missions and goals of this association, as well as functions.

Ms. Sharen Yang (Xian-Hong Yang), HR Director-Greater China from CBRE

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What are our prospective visions? I would say: 1. Though HRM is a kind of art, we need some scientific stuff to help us fulfill the job in formal ways. 2. Indus-trial benchmarks are more than necessary. Checking with the benchmarks is like taking a health check for the company. The index out of a reasonable range could be a reminder for us to review if we need more improvement in HR. 3. It can enhance the knowledge of junior HR Practitioners from science angel. 4. We may assist the government in regulating market behaviors by building industry standards. 5. By collecting voices and feedbacks from the industry, we will be able to provide advices and suggestions to the government when they make public decisions. There is a HR association for foreign enterprises in Beijing under Beijing

FESCO (Beijing Foreign Service Company). They have given valuable suggestions to the govern-ment when the government make Labor Management Regulations in Beijing. They have represented the HR industry and influenced the public decisions, and created a better investment environment. HASA, as an industry-wide association, is not the same with some other HR clubs that affiliated to commercial entities. Its standpoint should be more universal and neutral. We need to think about the positioning of this association. Can the association become an organization that objectively evaluates enterprises’ HRM level, or it has other functions?

Mr. Eddie Jiang (Jing Jiang), HR Director from GSK

Today's discussions are specially valuable. Every location has different situa-tions of HRM. For China, the difference is labor. The costs of workforce in China has been increasing a lot recently. Compared to neighboring countries, Malaysia could have lower labor costs because they have people from Indone-sia and the Philippines. Labor costs of inland areas of China are cheaper than of the coastal cities. Multinationals behave better in terms of operating busi-ness legally. How to help other organizations to create a fine environment for operations? How to support the government to offer feasible advices for em-ployment laws and regulations from HR? Many HR practitioners today are too ego. We are willing to share experiences with others, and of course, expect to gain information from this network. This is the only way to encourage sharing

HR intelligence and experience. Through HASA, we are able to coach junior HR practitioners, there-fore promote the competencies of the whole industry. When we talk about HR, we specially concentrate on globalization. However, HR localization is the same important. India has many HR networks. Through those, people get connected and share suc-cessful experiences. But we need to notice that some of the industry associations will lose attractive-ness gradually. We should consider how HASA can help and reward the members and the HR indus-try. The motives to found HASA are wonderful. A few arguments are beneficial sometime. If we could set up some standards and benchmarks, it could help a lot when we voice at work. We have to keep on the passion.

Mr. Menon Jayesh, Sr. HR Director from Flextronics

Recently, I'm preparing teaching materials about HRM for my HR team. Most of the teaching materials and reference books of HR in markets are not good enough. One of the disadvantages is the deficiency of on-site experience. Either from the angle of views or the applications, those publications are not appropriate to apply to business operations directly. HR professionals have to understand the organizations’ needs before the accomplish their assignments. What are the organization’s HR demands? Do needs change when the organi-zation is at different phases of development? These directly determine HR's role and responsibilities. The founders of HASA are top HR professionals and we all have rich practical experience. If everyone could summarize the es-sence of their work: for example, C&B, training, recruiting and so on, then we

can quickly train the juniors and thus duplicate talents.

Mr. Chun Li, VP of HR from Goodbaby

人力资源从业者公会（筹）

Page 5 No. 201003

Normally the professional associations has some linkage to judicial or gov-ernmental organs. Associations like these in other countries are usually very authoritative and very powerful. Can we get connected with the Ministry of Human Resources and Social Security? One of the most important prob-lems that HR face at work is that we have to handle some issues related with laws or governmental policies: for example, recruiting, training, C&B and etc. Currently, HR departments have to work with the governmental labor administrative organs for those affairs. In that way, HR have to spend too time and involvement, but also that methodology reduces the govern-ment’s efficiency.

Can we possibly build up liaisons governmental organs? We may formulate industrial rules and guidelines authorized by the government. Through those, HASA will be able to regulate organiza-tions’ behavior in HRM. Therefore, HASA’s certification will be able to assist the government in monitoring organizations’ HRM. Whoever gets HASA’s certification will do more legally and profes-sionally in human resource management.

Mr. Willie Ye (Cheng-Wei Ye), HR Director-Greater China from Arkema

There are quite a lot industries that have associations now, such as insurance and banking. There also exit many associations for practitioners in HK, TW and overseas, such as for doctors, accountants, architects and etc. As the HR practitioners manages workforce for the society, our role is specially critical. Our competencies directly influence the country: whether it can achieve the economic development goals, whether it can optimize talent structures, whether it can improve the quality of workforce, and it can promote employment rates and thus achieve the macroeconomic strategic objectives? The country’s economic development plan needs every economic entity and every company to implement, which is closely related to HRM. So far, we do not have an industry-wide association for HR, and we are not acting as far as we could have.

So what can HRM contribute to the society? For example, Professor Jin-Tao Shi from Jiao Tong University had participated in formulating a proposal of for the country’s HR development. He had offered valuable and professional opinions on retention and development for key talents for critical industrial development. This is one of the important contributions that HR people can reward to the society.

Although there are already existed lots of standards and certificates in China and in the world, we are not going to deny the outcomes that others achieved. On the contrary, we need to add value on their basis. As an industrial association, we should refer to and take advantages from the accomplishments by others, meanwhile, we should utilize HASA’s on-site experience and universality to verify the professional achievements from others. Furthermore, translating theories into practices, and achieving maximum common agreement within the whole industry through

To improve China’s HR management professionalism, regulate HR industrial behaviors, in order to advancing the globalization for China’s economy and helping multinationals’ business localization; To support the government’s administration on human resources development and employment, HASA advocate HR professionals take actions and social responsibilities. The preparatory sessions con-solidate the missions of HASA as the following statements: To bridge between the government and economic entities in human resources management. To build up and maintain com-

munication and interaction with the government from HR perspective to provide advice for the government's public decision-making, and create positive social environment for HR management. To contribute to expediting the construction for modern industrial systems by ensuring the quality and efficiency of economic growth from HR angel;

Through setting up benchmarks, rules and standards, educating & information exchanging, to promote HR professional suc-cessors and upgrade the level of HR management;

To support the government in terms of advancing the quality of the community's workforce, optimizing the talent structure, in order to promote employment.

Postscript the platform of HASA. It is believed that the industry standards and guidelines produced by this means will have largest universality, and will be recognized and utilized by all HR people. One of the objectives today is to give feedbacks on some controversial issues or topics worth investigated from the 1st preparatory session. The role of HASA should not be limited. It may have more functions to be derived. Both of the preparatory sessions consist of founding members, who are all senior HR executives. Though some of the founding members not able to join us today due to time or geographical restrictions, they have given valuable opinions and suggestions to us before and after the meetings.

The founding members of HASA are from world-famous organizations, taking leading roles in their own industries. Although the founders are not able to contain all organizations, but the HRM standards of those model organizations are completely able to represent the development trend of HRM. HASA dedicate to coaching HR successors, while we can also bridge between the government and entities, thus improve local HR’s professional skills and help multinationals better localize.

It has to be emphasized that unlike an academic society or other spontaneous associations, an industrial association is representing the whole HR industry. On one hand, we must protect our benefits, build up a platform for HR industry’s better development, create a better environment, advance communications, and strive for rights and interests. On the other hand, as the team managing the workforce of the society, we must undertake the social missions.

Meeting Minutes for 1st Drafting Committee（2010.3.26）

Professor Wen-Xian Zhang Professor from Fu Dan University, Ph. D Advisor

I ’m very glad to be here and discuss about this topic with you all. We have had this kind of

events many times. Today’s topic is still mainly about how to go deep into the issue of establishing Human Resource Assets Standards with Chinese Characteristics. The reason of choosing the module of training is that I’ve sought for opinions from many people before the confer-ence. I’ve found that many are still con-fused and misunderstand about this module. Currently the supply and re-quests of training markets has the prob-lem of irregularity, poor customization and poor effectiveness. In the end, the consequence comes back to the organi-zation, it is again the HR’s fault of such costly and energy-consuming job with no effectiveness. However, we can’t deny the value of training itself. I think training is an in-vestment, a real investment, an invest-ment that could be measured and cre-ate values instead of a kind of expense. Training is the headspring of core com-petitiveness. We always advocate im-proving core competitiveness. So,

where to start? Training is a good starting pointing. Therefore, training is the key to strategy, the base of execution and the secret weapon to success. We've known from cases of some reputa-ble corporations that the training process is to forecast the training needs, deter-mine trainees, clarify training contents, select training models, measure training effectiveness and evaluate ROI. Now we revert back to the effect where training is generated, which is our train-ing department. Because of the eco-nomic turndowns since 2008, quite a lot training departments had been dis-missed. This shows the positioning of training department in both HR depart-ment and in the whole organization, had got problems. Therefore, we need to get to the bottom of what is the contribution of training and the assessment models of training. Now, how is the research stage of training evaluation in the world from an interna-tional angle? There only 4 hierarchies of assessment: Level 1, Level 2 to Level 3 and Level 4. There emerges Level 5 now, but this level doesn't have a reliable answer. What is Assessment Level 5? That is the ROI of training should be quantified. It is just an assumption yet. How to quantify the effect that training creates has not been discussed out. Now, I’d like introduce a little bit about Level 4 Assessment,. Let’s see what level of your organizations are. Phase 1, Reaction: What aspects are the trainee satisfied with? That is Level 1. Phase 2,

Learn: This is not talking about the superfi-cial effects and satisfaction, but what you have learned and whether you have ob-tained the actual contents of the course? Phase 3, Behavior: whether it changes your behavior by learning this? Phase 4, whether the change of behavior has posi-tive influence on the organization? Trough the training, behaviors change thus lead to outcomes. However whether the outcomes will effect performances is yet to be veri-fied. Today we are discussing ROI (Return On Investment). That is, we need the statistics to say whether the training effects is good or not. It is cost and return from accounting perspective. Cost can be divided into direct cost, indirect cost, exploiting cost, opera-tion cost and the trainees' remuneration. In other words, if we want to measure, ana-lyze and sum up the cost of training, we need to determine what is the direct cost, indirect cost, exploiting cost, operation cost and the trainees’ remuneration. Next let’s see return, which we need to have further investigation. I'm especially happy today. I feel like we are in an executive seminar. We are here to produce outcomes. There is few out-comes like BSC (Balanced Scorecard) in the world yet. I hope that we can produce such outcomes here, based on everyone's wisdom, efforts, and intelligence. It is also because that we have foundation. If we have normal small and private enterprises to discuss about such top issues, it would be far more difficult because their basic

人力资源从业者公会（筹）

T hrough the previous series of discussions, HASA has reached some common agreements.

Those contents will be summarized into documents and will be published in the monthly newsletters. When the preparation is completed, those documents will be submitted to the central government to get sanctioned as the country-level association. Now, all documents are about to be drafted and the preparatory committee will ask for opinions from the drafting committee members. Today’s event is to take the training module as a sample, and in the following discussions, we’ll continue similar researches into each modules of HR management. Now the agenda for today: Prof. Zhang will share his research & practice experience in training quantifying. After that, every participant please propose your suggestions from your own practice. Let’s evaluate the feasibility to set the training module as a trial.

Director General Pu Dong Investment Association, HR Commission Coordinator of HASA Mr. Kevin S. Cheung (Zhen Zhang)

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接上页

work is not done. On contrary, the people here are close to the peek of the HR industry. This is a breakpoint of establishing Hu-man Assets. This is an innovation, because nobody else did so. We have to quantify the final results. Just because it is challeng-ing, many people never tried to do so. In order to better quantify the training effectiveness, I suggest start with projects. According to the nature of professionalism, we are able to figure out what training brings to the specific assignment and what the returns are. Even we might not be able to quantify the training result into money, but if there is improvement, it means it is feasible. In fact, one of the approaches to im-prove the organization's key competitiveness is to reduce costs. Training has influences on product costs, material saving, en-ergy saving and reducing wastes. It would improve cost competitiveness in all aspects and can be even more effective for mar-keting, product innovation, technology development and so on. Comparatively, to enhance competitiveness through capital op-eration is more difficult, for that requires special expertise.

I have some work experience with accounting background. The return of training is relatively difficult to be quantified. In the past, the training in factories were usually examined by training performance. Once the training had been conducted, the trainees were required to write down an Action Plan for performance im-provement. After three weeks, the training manager would follow up the trainees and examine which criteria had been improved and whether the index were reached. Similar trials had been done for some time, but the key point is to translate that into money, which is rather difficult. We can expect some benefits if we try. Our standard is to seek for common agreement while reserving differences. What we are discussing about is the common sense. What we need to do is to sum up that stuff. Regarding different organizations, they can customize that according to their demands and backgrounds. Our focus for this discussion is to estab-

lish mathematic models based on Professor Zhang's academic research background.

Ms. Julie Tang (Bei-Li Tang), General Manager-HR from CSAV

Return is mainly about improving operation indexes. The change of performance needs to be quantified as well: for example, the workers in production department have safety issues, e.g. the cost would be reduced if work injuries decreases, expenses of delayed jobs are reduced and overtime expenses are cut down. Regarding change of quality: for example, in the food industry, the production facilities are high-class and costly. If the staff don’t know how to operate, it would cause waste. Through training and some tests, we could reduce some costs and losses that influence organization’s creditability. Change of attitude: most of the bosses now expect the staff on whichever positions believe that “Attitude first, ability second”. Bosses are more satisfied with the staff’s positive working attitudes. When we do training, we concentrate on some

etiquette or refer to the good side of some similar factories. What we expect the change of working attitudes is that you do more than what you get. This is needed by every boss.

Ms. Anne Yu (Cui-Qin Yu), Head of HR from Robinson

The trainees are reporting to Line Managers. The Line Managers have to regulate their behavior and do follow-ups. Because training involves many people and is difficult to trace every person, trainees would be allocated to every department manager or immediate supervisors. There will be submission after the allo-cation, and then the Line Managers submit to us and assist HR to get involved in the team. On one hand we see how the Line Managers value the training, and then we review their actions and final plans. Their coaches are required as well. Those are lined to line managers’ performance.

Ms. Qin-Qin Liu, Representative from Li-Ning (Delegate of Mr. Bin Liao, HR Director of Li-Ning)

人力资源从业者公会（筹） No. 201003

Page 8

I want to say that we need to see whether your training is of great scale, or aim at one person’s particular skill. If there is a huge group of people, it is hard to measure your return. But it would be much easier if we do on purpose. We do value training. We have our plans when implement trainings. We review how many employees have successful performance after trained: whether they act differently before and after the training? We should determine whether that effect is derived from training or just a subsequence of the market. Normally it is difficult to tell apart. However, we can find the trend is good or bad. We categorize all the projects in the company and see how ROI links to our business and outcomes.

Ms. Regina Mok (Qing-Luan Mo), HR Director from Carrier Asia

To quantify training is a pseudo-proposition. Changes of human’s behaviors can never be measured from training perspective. The evaluation, reward, and penalty after training are hard to be done, because the change is caused by a huge system. So it is hard to look at from one angle: the angel of raining. There are three aspects of training needs: 1. Make sure the training plan is related to business issues. To concretize the training goal while conducting; 2. While implementing the training program, to make sure every atten-dees is clear about the problems to be solved: to concretize their expectations. When evaluate training out-comes, to evaluate by investigating if that individual’s particular problem has been solved. 3. Knowledge management: We should have training improve continuously. The importance is to keep the training materi-als and trainees would get great effects as well even if that is facilitated by other trainers. All trainings should meet those three requirements. In that way, the training managers will be clear about the emphasis,

and how to deal with them. From psychology perspective, human being’s behavior is hard to be assessed by one action. For example, the increment of sales is not all training effect. This is a very systematic behavior; it would be helpful to analyze it.

When I came to Mainland China in 1995, the first job was training manager. So far, ROI is hard to be de-fined. During that period, even in interview, when the applicants asked about company’s welfare policies, they would ask about training. That means they regard training a sort of welfare. As a water treatment com-pany that highly appreciate technical skills, our new staff are hired by different functional teams: e.g. sales and technicians. For example, a new sales person gets no sales bonus. New employees get trained for half a year or even 9 months. They are stationed on-site half time and spend the other half tie in office. Only the supervisors regard the person qualified to produce per the assessment criteria, that individual is supposed to get bonus based on the performance. That linkage drive them work harder and enthusiastically. It is hard to establish a completely “fair” evaluation policy. All is measured by KIPs which are subjective indicators to be appraised as objectively as possible.. The standards stuck in impasse has to be correct or wrong, thus

impasse and debates increase too. What we need is a universal framework and basic principles applicable to all organizations.

Mr. Chun Li, VP of HR from Goodbaby

Mr. Borren Chen (Zheng-Jie Chen), HR Director-Greater China from Nalco

From a general managers’ point of view, the HR issues raised by attendees are a little bit detailed. Our companies’ characters are different, and we are in different industries, it is impossible to reach consensus. I would propose that Prof. Zhang set basic guidelines and models for training from an academic angle. HR provide massive statistics to sum-marize verify. That motivates our passion and reach consensus. We can research and investigate from our own expertise. Effects will gradually emerge and influence other regions and even the whole country. At this moment, general discussions are hard to be accepted.

Mr. Jun-De Yan, Deputy General Manager from Juki China

To quantify is possible. The linchpin is how much time and efforts that the organization is willing to invest. My company produces vehicle components, CI (Continuous Improvement) is much critical. That is mainly for workflow, which is certainly quantifiable. We are getting down to it. Therefore we train the staff as soon as they are hired, teaching them many tools. They select a subject after the training. If the elements shown on the teaching materials could be improved, it could be quantified as well. It is possible to quan-tify the effects of social skills and leadership, such as the training for team leaders. Certainly there are other considerations, for instance, compensation and other factors will enhance the effectiveness. However, while quantifying training analysis, we should eliminate those irrelevant issues. Surveys could be an approach for staff to pick out the irrelevant elements then generate quantification the

weightings of the relevant issues. The problem is the degree of relevance, and secondly, the weighting. The model is feasible, but it needs numerous cases, data and analysis. If there are enough organizations to put the data together, we can then find out one index is correlated to another. The progress of the employee’s satisfaction might not come from the leadership training, it might be the subsequence of HR management and some Policies. The questionnaires that we design have certain pertinence: for example, there is survey of leaders’ behaviors for leadership train-ing. That is for investigating the impact of the leader’s impact on the employees. However, that sort of methodology is costly.

Mr. Jason Yang (Qun-Sheng Yang), HR Director-AP from Arvin Meritor

The core issue that we were discussing is not how to quantify the training outcomes, but how to conduct performance evaluations for training. There are difficulties in performance evaluation itself. The quantifiable stuff have been quantified, while the others unquantifiable we shouldn’t quantify them deliberately. We have performance score card in organizations. For sales and production, their behavior is simple, and we can quantify the results. However, for non-profit centers, such as R&D, administration, finance and etc, the behaviors are complicated. Therefore, it is a difficult problem to quantify that. Another problem that we are having is quantification for performance. That is concept difficult to reach, so coaching is necessary. It could take rather long time for training to produce ROI, but is comparatively measurable. Training is not omnipotent. The linchpin lies in the policy to support trainings after it’s con-ducted. To change the behavior is the gist. There should be policies for performance appraisal. To quantify

the training outcomes is not our ultimate goal, it is good enough to be measurable.

Mr. Michael Chen (Lei Chen), HR Director from MeziMedia

The effect of training is not only measured by fortune and money. What we need is standards of visible impression that can be applied universally. We need something of process: for example, some job evaluation tools designed by renowned consulting firms consist the factors mostly related with business operations and related with the position’s value, and those factors are com-monly recognized by the There is no absolute standards in the world. We need a standardized model. Through the evaluation methodology recognized by most people. Process is something of universality. While mathematical bench-mark needs numerous numbers to support, and then we can see the correla-tion through statistics. Someone should write down drafts, and he Drafting Committee should review and raise advice. Finally, the standards approved by the Founding Members Conference will represent some industrial trends at quite large extent. Though we can not represent the whole industry, but most of our organizations are taking leading roles either in the specific industry or even in the world, possessing substantial market shares. Additionally, the out-comes obtained through our professional research & studies will be influential to other SMEs. That is how the market runs, which will be helpful to the next generation of HR practitioners and to improve management as well.

Postscript Working Plan of April-May for the Drafting Committee

Deadline Contents Participants

April, 2010 Nominated name list of the founding mem-bers

The Drafting Commit-tee

May, 2010 To draft the charters of HASA

The Drafting Commit-tee

June, 2010 Review of the nomi-nated name list of the founding members

The Founding Mem-bers Conference

June, 2010 Review of the charters of HASA

The Founding Mem-bers Conference

July, 2010 To run legal formali-ties for sanction

The Preparatory Committee

人力资源从业者公会（筹） Page 9 No. 201003

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Rm. 1007, No. 135, Dong Fang Rd. Shanghai

Tel: 86-21-51308587 Fax: 86-21-51308586 Email: contact@hasa.org.cn PDI.HRC@gmail.com Web: http://www.hasa.org.cn http://pdi.org.cn

Preparatory Office of HASA Pudong New Area Association of Enterprises with Foreign (Domestic) Investment

will be the benefit multinational & local business in terms of business localization and globalization. The establishment of the Drafting Com-mittee and the mechanism of Founding Members’ Conference mark the success of initial prepara-tion of HASA and represents that HASA has started its legal proce-dures. As planned, the Drafting committee is going to finish the charters and finalize the founding members’ name list before June, 2010 and the Founding Members’ Confer-ence shall approve that. Since July of 2010, per the legal require-ments, all documents should be submitted to the central govern-ment of China for sanction through governmental channels. To cele-brate the success of the initial preparation and the establishment of the Drafting Committee of HASA, as approved by the govern-ment, HASA determine to host a celebration buffet. HASA prepara-tory office, officials from both Shanghai municipality & Pudong, the Drafting Committee, the Found-ing Members will present to wit-ness the milestone moment of

Under the support and considera-tion of China’s government and related governmental organs, since December of 2009, more than 300 senior HR professionals, senior corporate executives, reputable scholars from both domestic and overseas companies, institutions and other organizations came to discussion for over 4 months. Fi-nalized agreements were con-cluded on jointly founding the HR Administrators & Specialists Asso-ciation / Human Assets Standards Association. The association (HASA) is supposed to be the only country-level association for HR practitioners and scholars. The association has no restrictions on the members’ nationality, region, race, religion, gender, age, and the employer’s origin of investment. In April, 2010, by order of the gov-ernment, the Founding Members’ Conference determine to set up the Drafting Committee. The Drafting Committee is going to prepare the charters, treaties, benchmarks and standards for the association based on the missions of serving HR, advancing human resources and promoting employment, which

China’s HR industry. We’re spe-cially honored to invite you join us for the buffet. Should you accept the invitation, please send your confirmation to the email address: contact@hasa.org.cn and a formal Letter of Invitation will be sent to you shortly after we receive your confirmation.

Announcement of Buffet Celebration for the Establishment of HASA Preparatory Committee

Time: 17:30-21:30, April, 23rd, 2010 Venue: The revolving restaurant,

Sofitel Jin Jiang Oriental Pudong, No. 889, Yang Gao Rd. (South), Pudong New Area, Shanghai,

Parking: Garage of the Hotel Subway: Line 4, Line 6

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HASA Events for April—May of 2010

Date Topic Venue Time

April 10th, 2010 2nd Drafting committee meet-ing of HASA (Bilingual)

Reception room of Zha Bei District Government, Shanghai

13:30-17:00

April 14th, 2010 Hiring strategy & models after the economic turndowns (Mandarin)

Yangtze Hall, Renaissance Shanghai Pudong Hotel

13:30-17:00

April 23rd, 2010 Buffet for HASA (Bilingual) The revolving restaurant, Sofitel Shanghai Jin Jiang Oriental, No. 889, Yang Gao Rd. Shanghai

18:00-21:00

May 26th, 2010 Round-table session for HR service vendors (Bilingual)

To be determined 13:30-17:00

Participants

Drafting committee members, founding mem-bers of HASA

Junior & middle level HR practitioners

Governmental officials, HASA founding mem-bers and drafting committee

HR Service Vendors

May 14th, 2010 Close Dialogue-Conversation with Senior HR executives (Serial salon) (Mandarin)

A1, 3 F, Civic Centre, No. 2, He Huan Rd., Pudong, Shanghai

13:30-17:00 Junior & middle level HR practitioners

April 16th, 2010 Close Dialogue-Conversation with Senior HR executives (Serial salon) (Mandarin)

A1, 3 F, Civic Centre, No. 2, He Huan Rd., Pudong, Shanghai

13:30-16:30 Junior & middle level HR practitioners

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