Fact and the Narratives of War: Produced Undecidability in Accounts of Armed Conflict
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Transcript of Fact and the Narratives of War: Produced Undecidability in Accounts of Armed Conflict
Fact and the Narratives of War: Produced Undecidability in Accounts of Armed ConflictAuthor(s): Kevin McKenzieSource: Human Studies, Vol. 24, No. 3 (2001), pp. 187-209Published by: SpringerStable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/20011313 .
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kJ Human Studies 24: 187-209,2001.
w\ ? 2001 Kluwer Academic Publishers. Printed in the Netherlands. 187
Fact and the Narratives of War: Produced Undecidability in
Accounts of Armed Conflict
KEVIN MCKENZIE United Arab Emirates University, U.G.R.U -E.S.P, P.O. Box 17172, Al-Ain, Abu Dhabi,
UA.E. (E-mail: [email protected])
Abstract. This paper explores how providing the inferential basis to argue for a range of
equally plausible interpretations features as a way of managing issues of accountability in
talk about armed confrontation. We examine conversation produced in open-ended interviews
with diplomatic representatives of the United States and Great Britain in discussion about
those countries' involvement in the Persian Gulf conflict of 1990-91. By providing the in?
ferential basis upon which to argue for a range of equally plausible interpretative scenarios,
speakers attend to the potential for any one account to be privileged over another. Further, in
speculating upon the relationship between interpretative particulars and the inferential out?
come to be drawn for some specific version of events in question, speakers work to establish
the parameters of an admissible narrative trajectory with which to account for those events.
In so doing, they manage the implications that excluded versions would otherwise make rel?
evant.
Key words', conflict resolution, ethnomethodology, fact construction, memory, narrative analysis, social remembering
In their study of testimony produced during the Iran-contra hearings of July
1987, Lynch and Bogen (1996) use the term produced undecidability to de?
note the interactional work whereby participants act to suspend judgement on
some past state of affairs relative to a given body of documentary evidence.
In particular, they refer to the way that speakers work to undermine the shared
basis for the production of a mutually agreed-upon account of some past event
by demonstrating the equal plausibility of competing interpretative versions
as based on the available body of documentary evidence. Where some given document (e.g., press release, memorandum, e-mail message, etc.) can be
shown to have been produced as the outcome of events described in a number
of equally plausible interpretative scenarios, the grounds for a definitive ver?
sion of the events in question remains elusive.1 That is, where all versions of
some event are equally plausible, no grounds exist to privilege any one ver?
sion over another. In this way, the details of what may or may not have taken
place in a given set of circumstances is rendered practically undecidable. Lynch
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188 KEVIN MCKENZIE
and Bogen further make the point that the elusive nature of the account is the
outcome of dialogic interaction, produced on the occasion for the conflicting
purposes to which speakers attend as a part of their situated business (the
production of an inferentially rich and legally consequential history of the
events surrounding the Iran-contra affair). The production of undecidability in this way is no less an interactional accomplishment than is the converse
production o? decidability (Brannigan and Lynch, 1987). Indeed, what is (prac?
tically) agreed upon, so to speak, is that no agreement can be reached about
the events in question, or rather, that no agreement can be reached about the
singular significance of some particular set of documentary evidence in sub?
stantiating a given version of those events.2 This not the same thing as saying that interlocutors simply "agree to disagree" since were that the case, each in?
dividual party could ratify some particular version of events while granting
(though not conceding) the grounds for an interlocutor to maintain an alterna?
tive, competing interpretation. Instead, in the case of produced undecidability,
participants work up a shared understanding that there is an inadequate basis
to decide upon a definitive version of the events in question. In this latter sense,
then, it does not really matter what specific version some participant might favor because there are insufficient grounds to warrant the holding of any?
thing other than a purely speculative interpretation. As a way of managing ones accountability for his or her part in some set of
circumstances under scrutiny, produced undecidability thus features as a par?
ticularly robust device to foreclose the imputation of culpability that any par? ticular account might make available. Addressing this in the context of recent
theoretical debates in the philosophy of the social sciences, Lynch and Bogen
(1996, pp. 65-66) remark:
[0]ne of the central lessons of Iran-contra was that the documentary evi? dence of history comes to us, as it were, already warm, which means that
history is, in a deep sense, up for grabs. As Horwitz [1988] has noted, the
acceptance of the 'transparency of evidence' is virtually axiomatic to ar?
guments currently being advanced within postmodernist and New Histori
cist circles for an 'anti-objectivist vision of historical knowledge.' Although the public avowals of truthfulness, and of a respect for truth, made by
spokesmen for the Reagan administration did not express a postmodern vision of historical knowledge, these spokesmen evidently were adept at
putting such a vision to practical use. The great irony is that critical,
postmodern, and oppositional strategies are generally supposed to be con?
gruent with a progressive cultural politics, and yet the most astute and well
trained practitioners of postmodern politics may well turn out to be affiliated with such groups as the NSC staff and the CIA. The antiobjectivist vision
of historical knowledge was used at the Iran-contra hearings to construct an avowedly fragmentary, equivocal, and therefore fragile history, and to
pass it off for what really happened in the Iran-contra affair.
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FACT AND NARRATIVES OF WAR 189
The fragile quality of history to which the authors refer here results because
a number of interpretative scenarios are equally able to account for the pro? duction of the evidence in light of which some historical version is to be pro? duced. Where such conditions are successfully achieved, there are at best
insufficient grounds to adopt anything more than a purely speculative stance.3
That is, given the equal plausibility of any of a number of interpretative ver?
sions, no basis exists for the privileging of any one version over another.
In what follows, we shall turn our attention to the way that produced un?
decidability features in accounts of war and violent conflict. As analytic data, we will consider examples of talk produced in interviews with members of
the U.S. and British diplomatic communities in discussions about events sur?
rounding the Gulf War of 1991.4 A significant feature of this data is the way that the talk in these interviews differs from that in the settings that Lynch and
Bogen consider. Specifically, the talk produced in these materials is constitu?
tive of the setting of a social science interview with its own demands for
accountability. This differs from the situated business of the congressional
hearings that Lynch and Bogen examine in which the speaker (Lt. Col. Oliver
North) works to manage his personal accountability in and for the events
under consideration through situated memorial work involving first-person disavowals (of the form "I cannot recall why I did what I did"). In the inter?
view settings represented below, that sort of work takes the form of a specu? lative third-person formulation rather than first-person disavowal. At stake,
then, in the Iran-contra hearings was the speaker's culpability for activities
whose contested/negotiated status had the potential to implicate him in legal sanctions. In the case of the accounts reproduced below, the culpability of the
speakers (the U.S. and British diplomats) is of a different order. As we shall
see, the accomplishment ofthat business is related to the decidability and of
and for the activities of particular heads-of-state about whom they speak. In
this way, their own moral accountability for activities undertaken on behalf
of the government they represent is implicitly tied up with the accountability of their professional associate at a further level of remove, so to speak.
1. Diplomacy in Accounting for Armed Conflict
Consider the following extract taken from the transcript of an interview re?
corded in February of 1992, a year after the ceasefire that officially marked
the end of the Gulf War.5 Here the interviewee (AmDip) ? a junior-level am?
bassador then working to contribute towards efforts at re-establishing the
American diplomatic presence in Kuwait - speaks in response to an inter?
viewer (Int) query about the motivation for U.S. foreign policy objectives
during the prior year's conflict (see Appendix for details of transcription con?
ventions employed here and in subsequent extracts below).
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190 KEVIN MCKENZIE
Extract 1
1 AmDip There-uh-1-1 PERsonally-there's a who:le (.) range of interests.=
2 Int =Yeah.
3 ( )
4 AmDip And if you focus on any one (0.8) set you're missing the whole pici tu re.
5 (1.0) U::m- (0.5) I think a good deal of:- (0.6) for instance >y'know
6 some people say< one of the reasons why the E?gypitians (1.0) take
7 ended up taking the position they did (.) here (1.2) was because: (0.3)
8 >you know< (.) right be?fore the iwar (.) uh (.) Saddam Hussein had
9 told {{Egyptian President)) Mubarak (0.3) that he wasn't going to
10 in?vai:de (0.3) >then he turned around and he idid.< (0.3) Y'know and
11 the fact that he Hied (0.3) to: (.) another: (.) tleaider (0.6) >y'know<
12 and embarrassed him Tpubilically (1.2) >y'know< (.) some would say
13 that was one of the major reasons why they ended up sending ?tro>U)ps.
14 Y'know not because of Egyptian (1.2) >y'know< (.) economic (.)
15 interests >I mean there were (.) all sort of Totiher things there< but it's
16 just the rea:l- (.) the offense >y'know< the Tinsiult (1.0) was enough to
17 motivate some real- (.) real ?a?ition. (0.3) And that's the way a lot of:
18 (.) >y'know< (.) people two>l:rk. I think (.) George Bush (.) some
19 would say operates (.) in very much the same way. There's a lot of
20 personal (1.0) u::h in?volvei ment in- in Tpoilitics. (.) And if he feels
21 betra:yed or:: (0.3) he feels that (.) >y'know< (.) we've been betrayed or
22 (.) people have been made to look (.) like ?idi^ots: he'll be:: inclined
23 to:- (.) >y'know< to ACT where another president might not have. (.)
24 >Another president's not as sensitive< (.) to that (.) might (have-) (1.0)
25 people have:- (0.5) you know- (.) >people'd say y'know< Carter (0.5) >a
26 lot would say< had some real moral tiniterests. (0.3) Worldwide.
27 Y'know. And pursued an agenda that was based in a large part on (1.0)
28 u::h (1.0) you know a moral vision of- of the Twoi:rld. (.) Others would
29 say that was just cynical tpo>Uitics. (.) Y'know what he was really
30 pursuing >you know< economic interests but with a:: (0.3) moral
31 veneer: sort of (.) on the- on the Ttoi:p. (1.0) But who knows. (.) You
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FACT AND NARRATIVES OF WAR 191
32 know if- (.) u:h- uh if the participants themselves don't really
33 understand their motives fully I don't think (0.8) y'know any- anyone on
34 the outside ( 1.0) can.
35 (1.0)
36 Int So you're saying that u:h Presidents Bush an:d Carter may not
37 understand their own motivation. [(Is that right?)]
38 AmDip [Well I dunno] if anybody really
39 does. I mean I think there's: just too much: going o:n- (2.0) u:h-1 mean
40 (.) I may take an action that I consider to be (.) purely rational or based
41 on (0.8) u::h (0.6) y'know (.) good (.) cold (1.0) tmoitives (1.5) >and
42 somebody else will say< "Oh, well you're just responding emotionally
43 because" >y'know< "when you were four years o:ld" y'know "your (.)
44 father did this to you and so NOW you see:" y'know >"Saddam as a
45 father",< I mean (.) uh- or >somebody else will say< "Well" (.) y'know
46 "you think you're Tactiing (0.5) logically but this is really just-" (.)
47 >y'know< "the economic interests be?hind ?you are con?vinciing you
48 to do this so you-" y'know (1.0) who Tkniows. (.) I mean I- I'm not in a
49 position: to: fully understand (1.8) uh- tany ?action.
This is obviously an involved episode of talk in which speakers attend to some
rather complicated interactional business. Of particular relevance here in that
regard is that speakers are oriented to the production of their interaction as an
encounter which has the social scientific investigation of foreign policy and
international relations as its objective. In other words, speakers work here to
produce their talk as an instance of an analytic undertaking (Atkinson and
Silverman, 1997; Latour, 2000, esp. pp. 112-117; Osborne and Rose, 1999; Widdicombe and Wooffitt, 1995). Among other things, this means that the
interviewee is oriented in his response to the potential for his remarks to be
brought under analytic and ironizing scrutiny. Thus, for example, in his refer?
ences to economic interests throughout (cf. lines 14?15, 29?31, 46-48); the
diplomat displays an orientation or understanding that is one of the concerns
which the interview proceedings have as their objective to investigate. That
is, he displays an orientation in his remarks to the potential relevance of eco?
nomic interests to account for the actions of parties to the conflict; and in so
doing, works to bring his activities off as a contribution to an investigation of same. In this regard, both he and the interviewer are about the business of doing a qualitative sociological investigation as displayed in their actions as just so
oriented.
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192 KEVIN MCKENZIE
In addition to the working up of his contribution as the accomplishment of
social scientific research, the speaker at the same time also attends to the
potential to be implicated in the demands for accountability entailed by the
reading of Allied actions that he considers. That is, he works to foreclose being held accountable to the moral demands implicit in an accusation of economic
opportunism. This is quite neatly brought off in the way that both a range of
different interpretative versions and the economically deterministic reading thereof are considered on a further, meta-level of ironization as the object of
the interviewee's own situated, analytic scrutiny. In other words, the diplo? mat here provides an interpretation of both a reading of events related to the
conflict and a reading of someone else's (economically deterministic) read?
ing of those events - at a higher level of remove, as it were. The overall effect
of this is that he is able to step back from his own formulation in order to
scrutinize both sets of interpretations while nevertheless working to ratify neither (see also McKenzie and van Teeffelen, 1993). Just as with the produced
undecidability that Lynch and Bogen consider, since it is not possible here for
either the participants of the hostilities in question (i.e., the leaders of Allied
nations such as Egypt or the United States) nor those subsequently consider?
ing those participants' motivation to account for their involvement in the
conflict, then the matter of settling upon a definitive version ofthat motiva?
tion itself remains elusive ("if the participants themselves don't really under?
stand their motives fully I don't think y'know any- anyone on the outside can", lines 32?34). It is not that various accounts cannot be considered, but that they
nevertheless still sustain an inconclusive warrant. Indeed, it is precisely be?
cause the various accounts are accorded equal consideration that the matter
of arriving at a definitive version gets suspended. As such, the question of
accountability is itself rendered inconclusive and therefore of no consequen?
tially for the business-at-hand of the talk.6
Notice here also that the work of suspending judgment in this way is itself
variably occasioned so that its relevance is selectively made available. That
is, where the actions of U.S. presidents Bush and Carter, and (to a lesser ex?
tent) Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak are potentially made accountable to
different assumptions within a range of competing interpretative scenarios;
by contrast, the actions of the Iraqi president are exclusively described as
duplicitous in nature. So, in the anecdotal account of diplomatic contact be?
tween Egypt and Iraq which is said to have taken place in the period immedi?
ately preceding the Iraqi incursion into Kuwait on August 2,1990; the question of motivation is not opened up to interrogation in the same way it is in dis?
cussing the motivation of U.S. presidents Bush and Carter. Instead, an un?
derstanding of the Iraqi president's interactional encounters with other
heads-of-state is informed by the implicit assumption of culpability as pro?
vided for in the account of Iraqi duplicity (lines 8-11). In this way, produced
undecidability is selectively made available.
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FACT AND NARRATIVES OF WAR 193
Finally, it is perhaps worth noting here that the interviewee's treatment of
presidents Mubarak, Bush and Carter in this way not only works to accom?
plish this selective exclusion-from-scrutiny of participants in the Allied war
effort; but also rather elegantly manages the potential for the speaker's own
observations to be dismissed on the grounds of his own stake-and-interest
as a representative of the U.S. government (see Potter, 1996, pp. 124-132;
Edwards, 1995, pp. 332-335). This is so because implicit in the related ob?
servations he makes is that such exclusion is not selectively relevant only to
the American leadership on whose behalf he acts, but rather that it cuts across
an international community of actors (since it includes the Egyptian presi?
dent).7 In other words, because what the diplomat has to say about these things is true not only of the U.S. presidents but of the Egyptian president as well, then the inference of his remarks resists being undermined as motivated by the interests of U.S. diplomatic concerns. Similarly, in commenting upon the
substance of what resembles a psychoanalytic reading of Allied actions (framed in terms of the Oedipus Complex), the interviewee is able to work just such
an interpretation up as na?ve and/or simplistic (lines 41^5). In so doing, he
is able to foreclose potential objections to his own account as similarly sim?
plistic in its reductionism while at the same time limiting the relevance of just such readings to their significance in exemplifying a range of plausible alter?
native explanations. In this way, his remarks are oriented to resisting the de?
mands for accountability that any single such reading might otherwise make
available.
2. Establishing Trajectories of Consequentiality
In the talk we have examined so far, an argumentative situation in which the
implicit demands for accountability that any given, specific interpretation of
Allied actions might make available is effectively neutralized or suspended
by virtue of its being rendered inconclusive relative to a set of equally plau? sible alternatives. As we shall see in what follows, this does not however mean
that because speakers act to provide for such interpretative variability, that they therefore necessarily forgo developing a moral stance relative to the events
of the Gulf conflict. Indeed, as we shall see, speakers can work instead to make
those judgements implicitly available through a strategic and careful delinea?
tion of narrative parameters by which they address particular events in ques? tion (specifically, the Iraqi incursion into Kuwait). In turn, this involves
somewhat more complicated rhetorical work in which produced undecidability features as a way of introducing an implicit distinction between anticipated and unanticipated consequences of action.8
The following data extract is the record of an interview with a diplomatic
representative (also junior-level) of the British government in Kuwait (BrDip)
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194 KEVIN MCKENZIE
recorded at around the same period as that represented in Extract 1 above. Here
the speaker addresses the issue of American and British involvement in the
Gulf War in the context of their foreign relations policies in the region as a
whole.
Extract 2.1.
1 Int But u:h can you just sort of: urn- ( 1.0) maybe in general terms just (0.5) uh
2 gimme an idea of why you think the war was fought. Why did the Allies
3 for example (.) urn (0.8) decide to pursue a military option as opposed to:
4 (0.8) u:m (.) y'know (0.3) continuing the sanctions. (.) Or
5 (1.0)
6 BrDip U::m (1.0) >well, I (suppose I should) take the second question first.< (1.0)
7 U:m (1.3) because: (.) it became clear (0.6) urn (0.6) certainly by the time
8 the:- (0.5) the tdeadlline (.) had (.) expired (0.3) that (0.6) sanctions (0.3)
9 were n- were not going to work. (1.0) U:m (.) and that the:- (.) to delay any
10 further then:- (1.0) that could lead to: (1.0) >two effects. (.) Two effects.<
11 One to: u::m (.) increase the misery of the:- (.) of the Kuwaitis here. (1.0)
12 And- and to:- to:: (0.5) allow the Iraqis to strengthen: their defenses. (1.0)
13 U:m (2.0) Why:- why was the war f- fought. (0.6) I: thiir.k (1.5) it wa:s:: (.)
14 a case of- of- (0.5) >perhaps of a happy coincidence< of- of (.) self-interest
15 and altruism. (.) U:m (1.0) I mean there was a (.) genuine outrage (0.6) in:
16 (0.3) the West. (.) I think- and- (.) >and that- that u:h XXX at the time.<
17 (0.6) Urn- (.) at (0.5) such a sudden and (0.6) unprovoked uh (.)
18 in?vaision (0.8) so that there was a- (.) was a then- a GENuine desire to
19 (.) to re?verse ?that (0.3) and- and to see him out. (1.2) >It was made
20 easier by the fact that it was so >l clear.< (.) U:h so clear-cut. (0.3) Y'know
21 people have drawn parallels with other (0.5) invasions >other acts of
22 agtgres>Uion,< (1.0) but mo:st have had a sort of complicating Tfacitor.
23 (0.8) U:m (.) the obvious one ber.ng urn (0.8) the- the Israeli (.) urn
24 occupation of- (0.5) of the West Bank and ?Galza. (1.0) That- (0.6)
25 THAT was condemned by the:- the un. (0.3) U::m (.) BUT (.) it was much
26 harder (.) to do something a?bout ?it. (.) U::m (.) because it was just- it
27 was not so clearicut. (1.0) The Iraqi: (.) invasion- invasion of- of Kuwait
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FACT AND NARRATIVES OF WAR 195
28 (0.6) it was very clearcut and- and (0.3) simple. (1.2) U::m=
29 Int =Well (.) I mean (0.5) I don't mean to argue but: u:h (.) that's interesting,
30 what's the difference. Why- how is it that then (0.3) it's not clearcut in the
31 (.) Israeli case and (.) it's clearcut in this case. (You see
32 [that) XXXX]
33 BrDip [>No I don't want to go in-1 don't want- don't want to<] (0.5) get into a
34 (.) a historical detba^:te (.) but: (.) urn- (1.0) I mean (.) there- there's no
35 doubt that the: (0.6) Iraqi (.) u:h (1.2) invasion >(again- uh-) of Kuwait<
36 (0.5) u:m (1.0) was: (0.3) illegal (.) and unjustifiable. It was a (0.5)
37 invasion of one {sniffs) (.) peaceful country (.) u::m (1.5) urn (.) by another.
38 (0.6) U::m (2.3) w:e- (1.0) with- without- wi:- with no: (.) u:h (.)
39 justification for the resort to ?arms.=
40 Int =Mmhm.=
41 BrDip =U: :m ( 1.0) without at all wishing to justify the: Israeli (.) uh >occupation
42 of- of the West Bank and Gaza< (1.3) the: Arab states (0.3) at the time
43 we:re (.) in a state of war. (0.3) Urn more or less active war. (0.6) Urn
44 against (.) urn Israel. (1.0) U::m (0.6) which had underSTANDable (0.3)
45 urn security con?ceirns. (0.3) That's not to say that it was right: to- for- of
46 Israel to:- (.) to invade (.) or occupy (.) the West Bank and Gaza. (0.3) >Of
47 course it wasn't< and- and that's bee:n (1.0) XX the u:h (0.6) tsh the
48 subject of a- a un (.) Security Council resolution. (0.5) But you can at least
49 (.) understand it. (0.5) U:h more easily (.) than: you can understand the:
50 the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait. (.) So I think that- that >y'know< they- (1.0)
51 they are different. (.) U:m (.) and of course the- the wider historical (0.5)
52 urn- (.) backgrounds are different as well. (1.0) U::m (1.3) second point of
53 of why it was- wa- it was- (.) u:m (0.8) was fought, I-1 think (.) it'd (.) be
54 naive not (.) to- (.) to- not to: (0.6) u:h not to- (.) >not to tackle this point<
55 was: of course that (1.0) this area is important (0.3) for the whole world
56 because of its- (.) because of the oil resources here. (0.3) So I- >y'know< I
57 think there was- (0.6) there did exist that element of (.) recognized self
58 interest. (0.8) U:m which >as I said< (0.3) happily coincided with (.) the:
59 uh (1.3) >the altruistic< or the: u:h (.) >or the idealistic.< Uh
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196 KEVIN MCKENZIE
Like the talk recorded in Extract 1, this too is a rather lengthy exchange and
involves some deft interactional work. Our interest here, however, focuses on
how the interviewee manages the availability of assumptions made relevant
in the interviewer's initial query concerning the motivation for Allied actions
in the conflict ("can you just sort of urn maybe in general terms just uh gimme an idea of why you think the war was fought. Why did the Allies for example urn decide to pursue a military option as opposed to urn y'know continuing the sanctions", lines 1-4). In particular, the interviewee is able to specify the
grounds of his interlocutor's questioning such that what is regarded as sig? nificant to an account of Allied actions is not so much the motivation for which
U.S., British and other coalition members were engaged militarily; but the
nature ofthat engagement as either a response to or else the initial impetus
for Iraqi actions. U.S. and coalition actions thus feature as exclusively moti?
vated in response to "a sudden and unprovoked invasion" (lines 17-18), an
action disruptive of otherwise peaceful international relations ("It was a in?
vasion of one peaceful country urn urn by another", lines 36-38).9 As such,
the nature of the actions features as "clearcut" and "simple" (line 28) in com?
parison to the not so straighforward case of Israeli actions complicated by vari?
ous contingencies ("people have drawn parallels with other invasions >other
acts of aggression,< but most have had a sort of complicating factor", lines
21-23; "the Arab states at the time were in a state of war. Urn more or less
active war. Urn against urn Israel. Urn which had understandable urn security
concerns", lines 42^5). Indeed, note how interviewer efforts to interrogate the basis for such a contrast are circumvented as relating to a matter of his?
torical record (">No I don't want to go in-1 don't want- don't want to< get into a- a historical debate", line 33).
All of this is significant for the argumentative consequentiality of the ac?
count in this context because it means that competing interpretative versions
are effectively marginalized. As Edwards (1997, p. 277, emphasis in original) remarks along these lines:
A basic issue in telling a story of events in your life is where to begin: ' Where one chooses to begin and end a narrative can profoundly alter its
shape and meaning' (Riessman, 1993: 18). Where to start a story is a ma?
jor, and rhetorically potent, way of managing causality and accountability. It is an issue not only for personal narratives, but for accounts of all kinds,
including histories of nation states, and stories of immigration and ethnic?
ity: who actually belongs where? Starting when? Whose country is it? From
Britain to Bosnia to New Zealand (Wetherell and Potter, 1992), and the so
called 'Indian' natives of North America (Cronon, 1992), alternative nar?
ratives compete in terms of precisely when and where they start.
These observations relate to the talk we have examined above because estab?
lishing one's ability to decide upon the events in question is the way by which
the boundaries of a narrative get established.
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FACT AND NARRATIVES OF WAR 197
Note also that just as in Extract 1, here too an account of motivation on the
part of the warring factions is treated asymmetrically since U.S. and Allied
actions are taken to be purely responsive. That is, the assumption of Iraqi
aggression remains implicit as against the background of claims regarding the
responsive nature of Allied activity in the events leading up to armed confron?
tation (see Fowler et al., 1979). Of course, this need not have been the case.
Alternatively, a historical account which highlights U.S. and Kuwaiti economic
activities vis-?-vis Iraq in the years prior to 1990 and following Iraq's con?
flict with Iran in the 1980s would make a rather different understanding of
Iraqi policy relevant ? one in which Iraq's actions feature as a response to col?
lusive financial opportunism on the part of the United States and Kuwait
(Benin, 1991; Bresheeth and Yuval-Davis, 1991; Chomsky, 1991; Emery,
1991; Hulet, 1991; Wiener, 1991). So, where the interpretation of Allied ac?
tions is "up for grabs" (Bogen and Lynch, 1996, p. 65, quoted above), the same
is not so of Iraqi actions.
We can thus see that the relevance of the question of Allied motivation is
in some sense rendered moot or inconsequential since what is taken to be at
issue is the outcome of an action trajectory initiated with Iraq's invasion of
Kuwait. This means that within this context the interviewee is also able to
explore the details of competing accounts for Allied motivation (as he does
in the first half of his two part answer, lines 6-52) without this, however, having the effect of ratifying any competing, alternative account. In other words, he
can develop the plausibility of a responsive interpretation (of Allied actions) in the comparison he draws between the Israeli occupation of Palestinian ter?
ritories and the Iraqi annexation of Kuwait without this compromising the
argumentative position of Iraqi culpability. This is so because where the undis?
puted aggression of Israel is clear and therefore features as easily understand?
able ("you can at least understand it. Uh more easily than you can understand
the- the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait", lines 48?50), then the nature of Iraqi ac?
tions as unprovoked aggression is all the more evident.
In working up his account of Iraqi actions in this way, the interviewee builds
the grounds to then argue that the relevance of Allied motivation is of lesser
consequence in legitimating the war effort then is the outcome of the conflict.
This is elaborated in the second part of his response (lines 37-40) where, in
particular, he is able to demonstrate the plausibility of an otherwise unjustifi? able account for Allied actions?one involving "recognized self-interest" (lines
57-58) -while nevertheless suspending the relevance of a definitive judgment on those actions. In this way, the undecidability of any specific account which
could be warranted to the exclusion of some alternative renders the outcome
to be one of a "happy coincidence" of "self-interest and altruism" (lines 14,
58-59).
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198 KEVIN MCKENZIE
2.1. "You Can Use the Facts to Support That": Policing the Boundaries of Narrative
That the relevance of the conflict's outcome should be made the basis for
determining the legitimacy/justification for Allied actions as it is in Extract
2.1 is not to say that produced undecidability thereby becomes irrelevant in
such a context. That is, it is not a case of the ends justifying the means (so to
speak), but rather one of the ends constituting the only events for which an
unambiguous interpretation is available. Again, as with the formulation of a
historical account which excludes events leading up to the Iraqi invasion of
Kuwait, so too the particular historical rendering produced here need not have
been the only available one (Campbell, 1993). As an alternative, speakers
might have instead opened up to question the nature of events following the
Gulf War ceasefire. At issue might have been the internal opposition and the
contribution (either direct or indirect) of the United States to the armed con?
frontation by which the ruling Ba'ath party regime subsequently suppressed
Shias, Kurds and other factions inside Iraq. Thus, where one both begins and
ends an account raises crucial implications in terms of responsibility for the
events related therein. The suspending of judgment is integral to these efforts
in that it works to render their decidability not only inconclusive, but also
irrelevant for the production of a historical account. What matters in terms of
recalling the surrounding events and motives of various parties to the conflict
is that Iraq be seen to have initiated a trajectory of events that Allied actions
(thankfully) prevented. Produced undecidability thus features in all of this as
a device by which the limits of such a narrative are established.
This is further evidenced in interactional work to resist efforts at formulat?
ing the conclusive nature of any of the specific versions under consideration.
So, in the exchange below which follows on immediately from the remarks
recorded in Extract 2.1, the interviewee acts to reject any such efforts.
Extract 2.2.
1 Int Yeah. That's really what I'm Tin>Uerested in. Because I (.) have in mind
2 some of the criticisms of- uh (1.0) you know of- of the uh- (0.5) tsh (0.5)
3 Western >sortof<uh war effort (.) which (.)>y'know< basically amounts
4 the criticisms basically amount to this (.) idea that- that the West sort of (.)
5 dre:w (.) uh (.) Iraq into a war (0.8) you know that- as a pretext (.) to
6 dismantle the X (you know) the Iraqi military (.) XX (.) ̂ strength. And u:h
7 (.) therefore to sort of uh strengthen (.) the Western (.) military (.) control
8 (.) over: the region's resources. So that=
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FACT AND NARRATIVES OF WAR 199
9 BrDip =Yea:h. U::h I:-1 reject that totally.
10 (.)
11 Int Mm [hm.]
12 BrDip [That's] completely unfounded. (0.3) U::m u:h it- it's- it's a case of
13 people putting (1.0) the facts together and getting completely erroneous uh
14 (.) conspiracy theory. (.) Uh I don't-1 just don't- (1.3) although I-1 can-1-1
15 can see that (0.6) you can: (1.0) use the facts to support that, (.) u:m (0.8)
16 theory, (.) it- (.) uh I mean it- it's based on an erroneous reading of the- of
17 those facts.
Notice here that the alternative version proffered in the interviewer's query reverses the responsive account of Allied actions with a description of West?
ern duplicity ("the West sort of drew uh Iraq into a war you know that- as a
pretext to dismantle the X (you know) the Iraqi military XX strength. And uh therefore to sort of uh strengthen the Western military control over the region's
resources", lines 4?8). The speaker suspends the assumptions of a represen? tational model in which fact and interpretation are clearly demarcated; and
just as in the postmodernist and New Historicist readings that Lynch and Bogen refer to in their remarks quoted above, so too the diplomat here calls into
question the relationship between evidence and fact as a way of resisting the
interviewer's efforts to formulate a definitive version. Produced undecidability thus features here as essential to the corresponding work of warranting a re?
sponsive account of Allied actions because it is in virtue of the related sus?
pension of judgement that the coincidence of self-interest and altruism is
rendered meaningful in the first place. In other words, it is in admitting to the
plausibility of Allied duplicity (without, nevertheless, warranting that version) that the relevance of motivation gets made inconsequential to that of outcome
("I can see that you can use the facts to support that, urn theory", lines 14?
16). The problem, as it were, for the interviewee is that conceding self-interest
necessarily entails undermining the basis for a responsive version of Allied
actions; and as the trick is to suspend judgment on the basis of anything other
than that outcome, this becomes problematic. This is managed, however, with
produced undecidability because the conflict's outcome only emerges clearly to the extent that judgment on why the Allies pursued war is itself suspended.
That is, by eliciting a concession on the part of the interviewee as to the plau?
sibility of Western duplicity, the interviewer thereby paradoxically forfeits the
relevance of motive as germane for an account of Allied actions in the first
place. The sense of the query is only rendered meaningful where the relevance
of motive is irrelevant to an account of the conflict.
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200 KEVIN MCKENZIE
2.2. "The Facts Are Not in Doubt": Contesting the Boundaries of Narrative
As a way of further exploring how this boundary work is effected, consider
the case where the formulation of an account's beginning and end points are
contested. This is relevant in our discussion of the relation of produced un?
decidability to an account of motivation because it is not simply a matter of
opening up for re-interpretation the beginning and/or end points of some nar?
rative account that then has a bearing on the question of motivation. Rather,
something of the opposite is the case: making the issue of motivation relevant
is the means by which an account's initiating and ending boundaries are them?
selves contested and/or negotiated. Decidability and an account of motiva?
tion are mutually constitutive, as it were.
As an example of what this entails, consider the following remarks authored
by Michael Albert and Stephen R. Shalom which appeared on ZMagazine 's
internet web site as a response to a question about a different episode of armed
conflict: that of the NATO bombing of Serbia in mid-1999. The remarks here
are in response to the question "But even if badly motivated, and even if
they have some bad effects, won't bombings at least restrain Milosevic?"
(www.zmag.org/Zmag/kosovoqa.htm, 16 May 1999):
Restrain him from what? The idea that doing something necessarily im?
proves a situation is, of course, quite false. Some things may be beneficial. Others not. Yes, even an ill motivated action can sometimes have a desir? able effect and therefore deserve support, but in this case the bombing is not only ill motivated, its effects are horribly detrimental as well. It has worsened the plight of the Albanian Kosovars, vastly increasing the flow of refugees and, due to the scale, created a catastrophe of the first order. It has diminished the internal opposition to Milosevic, and if reports are ac? curate perhaps destroyed it. It has undermined the UN, turned NATO into an offensive, interventionary institution, played havoc with international
law, and further projected the U.S. as a country eager and willing to punish any deviations it discerns from its will with bombs, thus acting as a threat
against countries throughout the world. All these effects are horribly nega? tive and then there is the devastation of Yugoslavia itself, the immediate
expansion of deaths and casualties, and the future expansion due to the
wrecking of a country's infrastructure. The remarkable thing is that there is little dispute about the above. Yes,
our formulation has a moral tone that many others lack when recounting these facts, but the facts are not in doubt.
Here what is taken to be at issue is precisely the sort of relevance of motiva?
tion that is rendered unavailable in the description of coincidence that we
considered in Extracts 2.1?2.2. above. That is, where the British diplomat worked there to render Allied motivation irrelevant to an assessment of the
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FACT AND NARRATIVES OF WAR 201
Gulf conflict (even while considering the plausibility of such an account), in
these remarks those selfsame concerns are introduced by asking whether the
NATO bombing of Serbian forces might be justified on the basis of their out?
come independent of motivation. In other words, in this context, the issue of
motivation is rendered negotiable, available for consideration, "up for grabs". As a result, the narrative's boundaries are also thereby opened up for nego?
tiation.
Further, that negotiation involves undermining the assumption of a shared
understanding regarding the favorable nature of the military campaign's out?
come. That is, it is precisely the assumption that the bombings will have the
effect of "restrain[ing] Milosevic" which is itself being interrogated here. Note
that the work by which this is accomplished is inferentially quite subtle. What
is made an issue of is not whether Milosevic should be opposed, but whether
the bombing activity will effectively bring about an end to his activities. In
brief, the writers contest the facts of the assumption on which support for the
bombing campaign would otherwise be made justifiable. They effectively call
into question the assumption that NATO bombings will "restrain Milosevic".
In addition, note the subtle way in which this interrogation then gets re?
worked so as to re-introduce the very assumption that is initially in question.
Specifically, while describing the details of the bombing campaign's presumed
effects, the authors imply a link with motivation ("It [the bombing campaign] has diminished the internal opposition to Milosevic, and if reports are accu?
rate perhaps destroyed it. It has undermined the UN, turned NATO into an
offensive, interventionary institution, played havoc with international law, and
further projected the U.S. as a country eager and willing to punish any devia?
tions it discerns from its will with bombs, thus acting as a threat against coun?
tries throughout the world"). In other words, Albert's and Shalom's version
of the outcome implies motivation on the part of NATO. It establishes an in?
ferential relationship between motivation and the presumed/argued for out?
come, in the very claim of the outcome's factuality (Potter, 1996). What is
significant about this is that it alters the boundaries of a narrative's trajectory
by contesting the details of the endpoint. In opening up for interrogation the
factual nature of the effects of the bombing campaign, the relation between
outcome and motive is made available in a way that the counter argument does
not allow for.
In all this, we can see that interrogating the (factual) nature of some ac?
tions is much more involved than might initially seem to be the case. An
argument about the facts of some matter implies competing assumptions con?
cerning the consequential nature of activity -that is, whether the outcome of
actions and their associated motives can be entirely anticipated. For Albert
and Shalom, outcome is an accurate indicator of motive since motive deter?
mines outcome. In contrast, for the diplomats it is precisely this assumption that they open up to question and in so doing manage issues of accountability
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202 KEVIN MCKENZIE
on the part of the Allied warring factions. Clearly, these authors (Albert and
Shalom) bring more of a linear, deterministic model of human action to bear
in their arguments than do the diplomatic representatives whose talk we have
considered (see Clegg, 1989). In this regard, theirs is a theoretical set of as?
sumptions that characterizes an Enlightenment philosophy of human action
(in contrast to the assumptions that Lynch and Bogen describe as characteriz?
ing a postmodern theory of action in their discussion of the Iran-contra hear?
ings).
3. Discussion and Conclusion
In the previous sections, we considered the way that the proliferation of plau? sible interpretative versions is a means by which speakers can work to sus?
pend judgment in favor of any one account. Further, we examined the way that either providing for or undermining the decidability of some event effec?
tively works to constitute a narrative trajectory entailing a range of inferences
for the accountability of the events recounted. Thus, in examining talk where
speakers argue for the equal plausibility of a range of contrastive interpreta? tive versions to account for the conflict under consideration, we saw how the
basis for any definitive claim about the motivation for Allied participation was
rendered unavailable. In this way, speakers were able to manage the demands
for accountability that might otherwise have been operative by effectively
excluding from definitive (though not speculative) consideration events for
which such demands would otherwise have been rendered consequential.
Further, that exclusion simultaneously allowed for speakers to foreclose the
potential for their efforts to be discounted in and through a display of famili?
arity with the particulars of alternative interpretative versions which they worked to make uncertain. In addition to all this, we also saw how such rhe?
torical work is variably occasioned so that the suspension of judgment was
exclusively extended to include coalition participants in the Gulf conflict while
excluding Iraqi actors. It is with this subtle variation that the responsive (ver? sus proactive) nature of Allied action is implicitly formulated.
There are, of course, a number of other things we could have said about
how exploring the range of alternative interpretative scenarios features in the
rhetoric of justification. For instance, we could have examined how in prolif?
erating accounts, a speaker can demonstrate the equal plausibility of a range of interpretations while nevertheless working to argue for the exceptional na?
ture of some particular account (Billig, 1987/1996, 1991, pp. 107-121). In
such a situation, produced undecidability (or, perhaps more accurately, the se?
lective deployment of produced undecidability) would feature as a way both:
(1) to foreclose the potential for a speaker's given preference to be discred?
ited on the grounds that he or she is uninformed of alternative accounts, and
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FACT AND NARRATIVES OF WAR 203
(2) to prevent an alternative interpretation from receiving a more favorable
reception, and thereby pre-empting that version which the speaker seeks to
ratify. This latter point is quite interesting because it relates to a particularly robust trait of the kind of argumentation where produced undecidability fea?
tures. Consider: if someone were to reject the account that his or her inter?
locutor works to promote; they could only do so on grounds which would, in
effect, undermine their own efforts to promote any alternative. In other words, if some speaker's account cannot be accepted because it is implausible, then
neither can any other account on those same grounds. Thus, the production of undecidability involves a sort of built-in argumentative fall-back position. To argue, for example, that the evidence to warrant adopting a given version
of events leading up to the Gulf War is not sufficiently clear is, in effect, to
argue that all versions are ambiguous. Thus, if one cannot be certain that Bush,
Carter, etc. were motivated by morally dubious interests; than neither can he
or she be certain that their motivation was ethical. One can therefore reject some interlocutor's efforts to privilege a version only at the risk of simulta?
neously undermining the basis to warrant some competing version.
Quite apart from the actual details of how this proliferation of versions is
undertaken in the promoting of one or another argumentatively consequen? tial account, it is important to note how the issue of what one does or does not
remember is crucial to how social accounting itself gets done. At issue here is
one's approach to how remembering gets done in mundane situations of so?
cial interaction where interlocutors pursue issues of social accountability as a
routine feature of their everyday, mundane interaction. In particular, remem?
bering like this involves the ironizing of some version or versions of events
which are necessarily distanced from the activities that they purport to recount.
Such a stance toward memorial accounting effectively renders the inferences an account's details might otherwise make available argumentatively incon?
sequential by placing that account on a different footing (Goffman, 1979; but
see Schegloff, 1988). This raises some quite significant implications for the
psychological study of memory in situated contexts (Edwards and Potter, 1993; Middleton and Edwards, 1990). In brief, the in situ, reflexive theorization of
memory and knowledge means that the topic of remembering might be more
productively engaged not as an analytic object, but as a participant concern
(Edwards, 1997; Edwards and Potter, 1992). In this way, the re-specification of memory research would allow for an exploration of how problematizing
memory in the setting of its use is toeZ/reflexiveiy deployed in the manage? ment of those very outcomes which the theoretical activity takes as its object. Unlike the traditional, mainstream social psychological research in memory which seeks to reveal underlying cognitive processes, such an approach would
instead explore the way that remembering in face-to-face interactional encoun?
ters is an activity by which conversational participants are oriented to man?
aging the then-present interactional business in which they are involved.10
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204 KEVIN MCKENZIE
An additional point to note about the settings that Lynch and Bogen exam?
ined is that this sort of work is crucial to the speaker's efforts to render the
evidentiary record inconclusive. Oliver North's inability to recall the details
of events that resulted in the documentary record under consideration were
what rendered that record ambiguous. This contrasts with the interview set?
tings where the status of historical events relating to the Gulf War was under
consideration. Unlike the talk produced in the Iran-contra hearings, the dip? lomatic speakers there did not specifically address their own ability to recall
the events in question. Instead, their work to render the decidability of those
events arose from the methodical use of techniques for, at times, rendering and at others, resolving the ambiguity as a way of managing the emergent narrative. The nature of the historical events at issue was placed in question in the two settings, but the means by which that work was accomplished was
quite different. So, while what gets remembered (or forgotten) is to be con?
sidered for how it is consequential to the situated setting of its use, there are
all kinds of contexts for the recounting and interpreting historical events in
which situated remembering as a participant concern (of the sort pursued in
the Iran-contra hearings) simply does not feature. In the interview settings we
have considered above, it is the inclusion (or exclusion) of detailed specifics that features as a means by which historical narratives are not only rendered
credible in the ratifying and collaborative potential of their detail, but as a
means through which the shape of what counts as relevant to an account is
rendered available. Exploring the difference between the discursive work in
the Iran-contra hearings and that of the diplomatic accounts above is one way of extending the line of inquiry begun by Lynch and Bogen.
Acknowledgements
I would like to thank Charles Antaki, Mary Horton-Salway, Kyoko Murakami
and Jonathan Potter for their helpful suggestions for improvement to an ear?
lier draft of this paper. I am also very grateful for the useful and encouraging remarks of an anonymous reviewer.
Notes
1. Contrast this with Pollner's (1987) discussion of mundane reason. In the interaction he
considers (traffic court proceedings), the potential that alternative versions of an event
might throw up the question of whether there exists a single state of affairs that all par?
ties to a dispute can arrive at is inconsequential. That is, the existence of alternative ver?
sions does not seem to throw participants off in their quest for a definitive account of the
circumstances in question; but rather participants simply assume there to be a given state
of affairs that underlies the differing versions. It is the practical business of their interac?
tion to arrive at such a definitive version.
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FACT AND NARRATIVES OF WAR 205
2. Lynch and Bogen refer to this particular feature of how an archive is rendered suscepti? ble to doubt with the term plausible deniability their point relating to what results when
texts are treated by their author with the same sort of dispassionate analysis as any other
evidentiary material (see also Bogen and Lynch, 1989). 3. Similarly, in her discussion of corporate metaphor for the conceptualization of political
identity, Haraway (1989) remarks upon how biom?dical models of the body as coded text
with a dispersed command-control-intelligence network (i.e., the immune system) con?
trasts with the hierarchically organized image of an anatomical relation between head
and body prevalent in the medical paradigm of prior analogy (see also related discussion
in Campbell, 1998, p. 80). 4. This material was originally recorded as part of an investigation into the explanatory
practices by which American and British expatriate residents of the Middle East make
sense of Western involvement abroad (McKenzie, 1998). While the interview sessions
from which this data is taken involved discussion relating to a broad range of different
topics, a great deal of such talk was directed to addressing the legitimacy of military ac?
tions undertaken by the U.S.-lead Allied coalition during the conflict.
5. Of course, hostilities did continue following that date, both internally (between Repub? lican Guard forces loyal to the Ba'ath party regime and oppositional factions within the
country) and externally in the form of ongoing tensions that continue to characterize U.S.?
Iraqi relations. As we shall see below, attending to the status of these events is itself part
and-parcel of the business that speakers pursue in their talk.
6. Campbell makes a similar point regarding ambiguity in the management of accountabil?
ity, though his remarks are set within the broader context of international relations in the
period leading up to the conflict: "Given the complex and tension-ridden nexus of inter?
national, intercorporate, and interpersonal relations obtaining among Irac, Iran, Kuwait, and the United States and its allies, setting the blame for the crisis of August 1990 at the
feet of one party while absolving the other(s) of all responsibility is only possible by overlooking some legitimate factors while ignoring others altogether" (1993, p. 49).
7. For discussion of how what-counts-as-consensus is rhetorically occasioned in accounts
of international relations, see McKenzie (forthcoming). For related discussion of how
the rhetorical management of consensus features in other interactional domains, see
Edwards, 1997,pp. 130-136; Gilbert and Mulkay, 1984,pp. 112-140; Potter and Edwards,
1990). 8. The analogies to Giddens' (1984) work in this regard means that as a discursive construct,
the sociological theory of unanticipated consequences is to be considered for how it is
rhetorically appropriated in various argumentative settings. 9. Note that despite recent scholarly concern with the changing nature of transnational re?
lations and the effects of globalization on the sovereignty of the nation-state (Beck, 2000;
Holton, 1989; Kaldor, 1999; Waters, 1995), at no point do the speakers in this encounter
interrogate the status of national sovereignty, but proceed on the assumption of the in?
tegrity of national identity (which is itself opened up for scrutiny in globalization theory). The point here is that the question of nation-state sovereignty is itself a matter whose
relevance is provided for (or not, as the case may be) in different settings as a part of the
situated business attended to on the occasions of its use. A far more interesting analytic
question than whether, say, globalization has (or has not) brought about an alteration in
nation-state sovereignty is that of how and to what end the relevance of such an assump? tion is itself provided for in accounts of foreign policy and international relations.
10. While a detailed exposition of this sort of approach to memory is beyond the scope of
this paper, we might refer to three fundamental characteristics that Middleton and Edwards
identify in addressing the social foundation and context of memory: "First, context is
treated not as mere background or social influence, but as the substance of collective
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206 KEVIN MCKENZIE
memory itself, contestively established in talk. Secondly, metacognition, or talk about
mental processes, is seen not as reflection upon internal mental processes, but as occur?
ring in conversation in an occasioned manner, such that conceptions of mental processes are formulated, justified and socialized in the process of talking about them. Thirdly, we
examine inference and argument in the construction of joint versions of events where
remembering is the production of versions which are acceptable in so far as they suc?
ceed over other possible, foreseen or actual versions" (1990, p. 11, italics in original).
Appendix: Transcription Conventions
The transcriptions of talk that appears above is based on the well-known set of conventions
initially developed by Gail Jefferson (1985; see also Sacks et al., 1974), and extended by John Du Bois (1991), Du Bois et al. (1993). Included among these conventions in the extracts above
are the following:
pause timing in tenths of second,
indicated in single parentheses
it became clear (0.6) un (0.6) certainly by the time
short, untimed pause indicated
with full stop in single parentheses
in the (.) Israeli case and (.)
it's clearcut in
full stop indicates completion
intonation
because of the oil resources
here.
comma indicates continuing into?
nation
that's interesting, what's the
difference
question mark indicates question?
ing/rising intonation
Is that right?
underlining indicates additional
stress
if the participants themselves
really understand their motives
prolongation of sound indicated
with colon(s)
One to: u::m
false starts indicated with a
dash followed by a single space
why was the war f- fought
quotation as a presentational
feature
"Well" y'know "you think you're
acting logically but this is"
arrows precede marked rise or fall
in intonation
all sort of Toti her things there
talk delivered with an increase
in speed indicated with inward
pointing, angular brackets
uh >occupation of the West Bank
and Gaza<
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FACT AND NARRATIVES OF WAR 207
ALL CAPS indicates passage that is louder than surrounding talk
'tsh' indicates voiceless, alveolar
affricate
speaker noise in single
parenthesis, italicised
editorial comment in double
parentheses, italicised
non-overlapping, contiguous talk
between speaker turns indicated
with equals sign
overlapping talk indicated with
square brackets
uncertain transcription in single
parenthesis
unclear transcription indicated
with 'X' for each syllable of
such talk
which had underSTANDable
tsh the subject of a UN Security Council resolution
invasion of one {sniffs) peaceful country by another
had told {{Egyptian President)) Mubarak that he wasn't going to
AmDip of interests. =
Int =Yeah.
Int Mm [hm.] BrDip [That's] completely
I (suppose I should) take the second question first
that uh XXX at the time
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