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Exclusive: Car makers 'can't meet' Euro6 emissions targets

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3 Oct , 2015 9:40am Joe Finnerty

Exclusive: Car makers 'can'tmeet' Euro6 emissionstargets

With the VW Group emissions scandal in full swing, carmakers ask EU regulators to lower NOx emissions targets fornew cars

The car industry has admitted that makers can’t meet 2020diesel pollut ion targets and want to almost double Euro 6limits under new tests, Auto Express understands.

Its been revealed by an EU insider that the EuropeanAutomobile Manufacturers Associat ion (ACEA) is asking for a“conformity factor” of 1.7, whereby cars would be givenEuro 6 status for emitt ing 0.136g/km of nitrogen oxides(NOx) from 2020.

Policymakers are planning a zero-tolerance approach on the0.080g/km Euro 6 limit from 2020, but have agreed a two-phase implementation with softer regulat ions in place for2017 to 2020.

• VW emissions scandal: everything you need to know

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• VW emissions scandal: everything you need to know

However, the insider said the ACEA wants to push thisfurther and is asking for compliance for cars emitt ing 2.75times the Euro 6 limits during the first three-year period.That’s equal to 0.220g/km – a figure that wouldn’t evenmeet Euro 5 legislat ion.

Our source also revealed the ACEA feels the batt lescurrently facing VW are a US conspiracy against Europeandiesels. Its demands came at a behind-closed-doorsmeeting on 1 October ahead of the Real-World DrivingEmissions (RDE) tests, which will be officially introduced on 1January 2016 – although only for monitoring purposes in yearone. From 2017, RDE will be used for Euro 6 compliancetests on new type approval vehicles and in 2018, all newcars sold in the EU must pass RDE tests.

• How to test cars for real-world mpg and emissions

Julia Poliscanova, clean vehicles officer for Transport &Environment – a campaign group involved in the technicalEuro 6 discussions – said progress on deciding the finerworkings had been slow.

She told us: “It ’s simply unacceptable that instead ofconcentrat ing on fitt ing the right technology and meetingthe standard on the road, the industry is st ill busyweakening the law so it can concentrate on manipulat ing thetests instead.”

• Best low emissions green cars on sale now

An ACEA spokeswoman defended its posit ion, adding: “Inorder to say what would be the right conformity factor, youneed the full RDE package. The industry is not in a posit ionto confirm what it should be.”

What do you think of the car makers asking formore flexibility on Euro6 standards? Let us know inthe comments section below...

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• Reply •

Andrew • 2 months agoExclusive: Our source tells us that AE is desperately trying to spread the blame eventhough a single manufacturer has been caught cheating.

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• Reply •

Mike • 2 months agowhich car makers are we talking about, surely not all of them ?Germans ? This story pops just in time to deflect VWs current issues ?

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• Reply •

Pargeter • 2 months ago> MikeVolkswagen. The Lance Armstrong of the automotive world.

They'll just have to build petrol hybrids and pure electric then. Fine by me. 4

• Reply •

veryveryoldfella • 2 months ago> PargeterPure electric... power generation itself is a cause of pollution, just imaginehow much we would need if we all changed over enmasse. power generating grid cope with the demand? There are no easy answersto this problem, glib comments don't help. BTW I run a 1.4 petrol so haveno axe to grind as such.

1

Janner • 2 months ago> veryveryoldfellaUK Power gen is 44% NOx and particulates free (Renewables andnuclear), and 30% gas, which is substantially particulates free withmuch, much lower NOx than and internal combustion engine. remaining 26% isn't so clean but is being replaced in the near term.

Typical driver would use about 2,500 kWHrs of electricity per annum25 million 'average UK cars' or 62.5 TWHrs against a UK year of 336TWHrs so an 18% increase in electricity production.

The answers are here now and over the next few years - hybrids,range-extenders and all-electrics; prices are coming down andrange going up. A rapid take up of electric cars would take around15 years for most new cars to be electric and a further 20 years

Recommend � 4

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• Reply •

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for very few ICE cars to be left on the road. electricity generation to be increased and a charging infrastructureto be improved.

Electric cars are fun, fast and really cheap to run.

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• Reply •

veryveryoldfella • 2 months ago> JannerI agree they are fast, fun and cheap to run, I test drove aTesla Model S. Price, and a long waiting list seems to me tobe the only reasons to cause hesitation after driving one. Ithink you may well be right about the future, I hope I amaround to see it.

• Reply •

pazuzu001 •> veryveryoldfellaAt the moment, the biggest limit (in my opinion) is theinfrastructure. If one drives no more than 200-250 miles/day,overnight recharging at home is fine. Regular long(er) rangejourneys are very dependent on where the charging pointsare and how many networks one subscribes to.

• Reply •

soldierboy001 • 2 months ago> pazuzu001Ah yes the infrastructure, OK if you have a drive, but whatabout all those flats, terraced onto the street with 2/3 cars per household etc.?

• Reply •

pazuzu001 • 2 months ago> soldierboy001That's still infrastructure - though it's a different issue with itthat you raise.

• Reply •

soldierboy001 • 2 months ago> pazuzu001I am talking about charge point infrastructure not housinginfrastructure.The last place I lived due to the way that the estate wasdesigned unless you had a garage allocated you had to parkwhere ever there was an available space, 2 and 3 carfamilies faired even worse.

• Reply •

pazuzu001 • 2 months ago> soldierboy001Yes, I agree. Charge points are charge points and areinfrastructure - no matter whether they are located "next toyour house" (and dedicated to it) or out in the sticks andfully shared (the way Tesla tends to do, precisely todiscourage use from people who are not on long drives!).

• Reply •

veryveryoldfella •> pazuzu001Tesla' supercharger network is their answer to range anxiety,but your concern is a valid point for anyone else notable/willing to spend £50K plus.

• Reply •

pazuzu001 •> veryveryoldfellaThe supercharger network is severely limited e.g. in SouthernEurope, and if electrics take off is going to be painfullyinsufficient...

TDIPower • 2 months ago> veryveryoldfellaIf we stopped refining petrol and diesel there would be no shortageof electricity.

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• Reply •

Refineries use an enormous amount of electricity.

So you got a refinery consuming enough electricity to drive electriccars billions of miles at about 85% efficiency but instead it'swasted in inefficient internal combustion engines that are at best20-30 % efficient.

The anti Ev brigade don't want to know about that though do they?

• Reply •

G.Power • 2 months ago> PargeterAgreed, if diesels or even petrol won't cut it then it is time to move on.

• Reply •

Scott Burge • 2 months ago> MikePeugeot and Mercedes actually asked for stricter emission regulations, so I feelas if I'm in the same boat as you. Not entirely sure who AE actually asked.

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• Reply •

LeeMints • 2 months ago> Scott BurgeIs that true Scott? Are we to assume then, that PSA & MB are optimisticabout reaching Euro6 targets? If so, bravo to both manufacturers!

• Reply •

James • 2 months agoGet the stinking diesels off the road, they are also very noisy from outside addinggreatly to noise pollution.

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• Reply •

Tancred • 2 months ago> JamesYou could say the same about some people! nonsense. Diesel cars that meet Euro 6 standards are the cleanest dieselengines ever produced and infinitely cleaner than the black smoke pots of the1980s. Hybrids are simply impractical for most people and also very expensive.

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• Reply •

Milan Nemec • 2 months ago> TancredEuro 6 can be fulfilled in real-world conditions only with AdBlue, of course,you need PDF filter as well, otherwise you will not pass even Euro 5. Thereis also other stuff needed, making the diesel cars very expensive = lessbuyers.Hybrid cars are cheaper as diesel - you do not have to go for plug-in, asimple and cheap MILD hybrid would be enough to start with and can befollowed by a full hybrid later.Electric cars are nonsese = we make electricity from coal and atom = notvery environmental...

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• Reply •

Michael Simpkins > Milan NemecNuclear Power stations although dangerous are the alternative tothe coal and oil powered stations. Besides Oil won't last forever sowe have to find alternatives. Plus governments will demand changeand this is where your argument ends

1

disqus_zzz •> Michael SimpkinsNuclear Power stations are safer than fossil fuel fired powerstations.

The fossil fuel industry is responsible for more deaths viamining accidents (including oil rig helicopter crashes andexplosion - over 1000 coal miners die each year in china +about 500 in Europe), air pollution (causes/contributes toabout 7 million deaths globally a year + about 28,000 year inthe UK) and accidental explosions i.e natural gas leaks/carbon monoxide poisoning and oil refineries every singleyear than nuclear power ever has in its 60 years history.

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• Reply •

Milan Nemec

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> Michael Simpkinse.g. Germany leaves Nuclear Power by 2018, Spreading these stations is a very sensitive issue whichcauses public protests, loss of preferences for politicians,etc.

e.g.Sergio asked publicly not to buy their electric Fiat 500, asthey make 10 000 USD loss per vehicle..

In a democracy, you cannot force a private company to sell aproduct where it makes loss with every sold unit, e.g. Electricvehicles for the next 10 years. Or are we in communism or adictatorship?

The reason why everyone leaves Tesla alone is simple - youcan not make profit now selling Electric vehicles.Believe it or not, the next 15-20 years will be dominated byICE improved in efficiency and using hybrid technology,maybe natural gas, but ICE are not going away anytimesoon...

• Reply •

disqus_zzz • 2 months ago> Milan NemecI agree Euro 6 can be fulfilled in real-world with AdBlue.

Nuclear power is the safest, cleanest way to generate electricityon the scheme of things.

Then Electric cars even if powered by a Coal fired electricity grid aremore efficient than ICE and they don't dump air pollution for themost part at the centre of densely populated area. In addition iteasier to fit pollution controls to 100s of power compare to 34million motor vehicle.

Also you need to include the energy need to refine and transportrefined fuels to make a fair comparison.

• Reply •

Janner • 2 months ago> Milan NemecWe make electricity from renewables and nuclear (44%) and gas(30%) - coal stations are rapidly being retired.

Very environmentally sound.

• Reply •

Roger • 2 months agoAutoExpress tries to change subject from VW diesel cheat to other manufacturers.They only have: "others must do the same"-boring defence.

Hello AE! How has, your main sponsor, VW guided you to talk about this matter? 6

Fadyady • 2 months agoThis situation has arisen only because of the European car makers over dependence onthe diesel technology. Diesel is a much dirtier fuel and even with all the gimmicks that fool the tests can notbe clean enough for urban use. Just because diesel gives more miles per gallon and thus emits less carbon does notmake it clean when you take into consideration other toxins which is why Volkswagentried to game the EPA - after all they've been getting away with these corrupt

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• Reply •

practices condoned by the European authorities. Now that the VW-Audi have been caught pants down they're trying to present this asa US conspiracy against European diesel technology. They've already managed the support of the European authorities like ACEA and theSMMT. Give it time and the German government - who'd been conniving with the VWGroup's corrupt practices being well aware of them all along - will join the chorus.

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• Reply •

javier • 2 months agomake the cars compliant and if people dont buy the diesels they dont buy them andthe market decides

1

• Reply •

Michael Simpkins • 2 months agoPetrol and Diesel cars can't be improved even if you keep shedding weight and makeengines smaller to match the figures the EU require. Which is why the fuel cell andElectric will take over.

1

• Reply •

Andrew • 2 months ago> Michael SimpkinsUntil we realize that we need to burn carbon to produce hydrogen. It's slightlybetter with electricity, but we still don't like those wind turbines, do we? Oh, andthen we have the nasty batteries to deal with....

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• Reply •

Michael Simpkins • 2 months ago> AndrewStill cleaner then Petrol and Diesel

1

• Reply •

Milan Nemec > Michael SimpkinsPetrol can be improved, there still is a lot of room for development= lower real consumption/emmisions. The norms have to be changed towards real world consumptionplus higher limits, you cannot regulate scientific inventions fromBrussel...Do not be fooled by hydrogen or electricity, they are at least 15years away as a mass market product and do not solve anythingNOW...

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• Reply •

Michael Simpkins > Milan NemecPetrol will never improve as it still emits regardless of whatyou do. Tesla in 2 years time will launch the Model III. FuelCell cars are launching this year in the UK. Just face it theICE is old news and will RIP

• Reply •

Milan Nemec

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> Michael SimpkinsThat is a very short-sighted opinion. How many millions soldelectric/hydrogen cars do you expect by 2020?Average petrol ICE has an efficiency of cca. 30 percent.Toyota hybrid ICE has 40, mazda Skyactiv II 2018 will have48, the potential of ICE with full hybrid = no plug-in percent while car price remains fine and infrastructure isthere.Electricity = coal factories, let us face it, petrol is betterthan coal, as long as we do not have clear electricity, thewhole Electric mania is just a mania...

1

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• Reply •

Janner • 2 months ago> Milan NemecFossil fuel car 1mile/kWhr (9.7kWHrs per litre)Electric cars 4.5 miles kWHrmuch more efficient and clean at the point of use.UK has less than 30% coal and no oil powergen and coal isbeing phased out.Petrol is not better than renewables, nuclear and gas!

• Reply •

Janner • 2 months ago> AndrewWind turbines are much better than fossil fuel stations.

Battery materials are recyclable and already much cleaner than oilextraction.

• Reply •

TDIPower • 2 months ago

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Electric is the only solution, the technology is there but the cost is the deliberateobstacle to keep us in the past so manufacturers can still make billions from out datedtechnology.

I love my Nissan Leaf and electric drive is miles better than any ICE. Sure there areobvious limitations such as the 70 odd miles range, this however is going up to 90-110miles with the 30 kwh battery option for 2016.

2018 will see the introduction of the 150-250 mile range affordable EV, who needsDiesel then ?

I've driven almost 13,000 miles in the Nissan Leaf since the 20th of January with a 10min fast charge when I come off shift to get me 85 miles which gets me home with 20-25% left. Now I have work charging.

I get into a fully warm car with heated seats and steering, defogged and defrostedwindscreen.

I don't need, want or will drive diesel again as my main car.

1

• Reply •

Ed McA • 2 months agoCorrect me if I'm wrong but surely manufacturers as Mazda have met these Euro 6standards!

• Reply •

derek • 2 months agoModern emmisions are to strict and is making cars more complex, more expensive andmore unreliable.No matter how clean an engine can run, if the engine runs poor it will be more dirtythan a less efficient engine running well.Modern engine put all that nasty soot back into then engine to pull emmissions downbut clogs the manifold up choking the engine, dpf filters clog up and need toregenerate using excess fuel and meaning you have to carry on driving which if yourjust getting home isnt great.

• Reply •

Garais87 • 2 months agoSo VW EU6 are ok and the guilty one was made VW EU5, but the truth is that othermanufacture cant meet EU6 :D COOL :D other night I watched BBC and they weretesting real life emission Passat EU5 against Focus EU6 and the Passat was 4 timesover the EU5 regulations and Focus was 7 times over the EU6 regulations :D Ford =American??? :D

Simon • 2 months agoI have a new diesel at the moment, but to be honest, I will probably return to petrolnext time round. I dont do a lot of miles, and diesel engines do seem to be gettingmore complicated and presumably more expensive to fix if they go wrong. In case youwonder why I got a diesel, it was simply personal choice. I fancied a change.

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• Reply •

Tancred • 2 months ago> SimonDiesels are still a very good bet if you want an economical car to run. They arecomplicated engines but also more reliable than ever before. I don't regret usingdiesel at all and I'm tired of having the tree huggers dictating what I should bedriving.

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• Reply •

icandestroy • 2 months ago> TancredTell that to the children in built up areas coughing and spluttering withasthma due to the awful pollutants (not carbon) that diesels put out.New Euro 6 engines are fine, ones below that should be taxed heavily inCities.

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• Reply •

disqus_zzz • 2 months ago> icandestroyThink we should wait for real world tests on NOx level of Euro 6Diesels before we judge.

• Reply •

Anon • 2 months ago> disqus_zzzAgreed, as consumers we now know we need "real world"test results to judge. Note VW say their EU6 engines"comply" but won't say they don't cheat to do so.

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• Reply •

disqus_zzz • 2 months ago

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> TancredFirstly its not the stereotypical car hating tree huggers who tend to onlycare about co2/ climate change and completely forget about local airpollution - they probably part of the people championing diesel car afterVED was linked to CO2 completely ignorant to the NOx problem (ironicallybiodiesel is worse for NOx emissions).

The people who are complaining about this its the people who want to dosomething about the 9500+ people who deaths are linked to air pollutionin London alone each year and the 100s thousands of people withrespiratory illness due to air pollution. They also blame the government forcoercing people into buying diesel cars in the name of the environmentand question why we still have diesel buses/trains. Personally I want toknow why LPG/CNG was not encouraged as an alternative fuel.

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• Reply •

soldierboy001 • 2 months ago> disqus_zzzAs a person who used to drive both LPG and CNG trucks I can tellyou the range was the Problem as these gas powered vehiclesused more litres of gas per 100 miles, plus they were not as idiotproof, freezing temps, to refuel as petro/diesel. OK for shortjourneys but like electric at the mo has limitations.

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6 comments • 3 days agoAndy — Going to shock the world by releasing something that doesn't look like your grandmasfront room?

Mercedes-AMG S 65 Cabriolet to head S-Class range1 comment • a day ago

Def90cars — I genuinely think this was written be someonepack of Top Trumps cards. I do like the "the S 65 …

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