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DB14009

DPACASS030

I: This is Dave Seibold, and this interview with Al VanBemmelen was taped on Tuesday,

September 17, 1991 in Al‟s home on Colfax. The 1216 Colfax is where he lives today.

He was born in Grand Haven in 1915, which makes Al 76 now, and he was one of 12

children who lived at a home that is still there at 906 Penoyer, and Al considers himself

an Eastsider, even though today that line is well described by Beacon Boulevard.

Apparently they knew who the Eastsiders were in those days, and referred of course, to

the area around what is Mary A. White now as Mortgage Hill, but he has some fond

memories of all of those areas, and the times that he lived there, and it‟s a very interesting

interview.

I: Well you know, Walt Webber, I mentioned to you.

R: He was here Sunday…

I: Left his information…

R: and I was sitting here. I don‟t know the fellow you know…

I: Yeah.

R: But we got to talking, you know, and he says, “Well, he‟s a dentist.” He is with

Creason, and he mentioned your name…

I: Right.

R: And I said, “God, yeah, Dave, yeah, that‟s my dentist. I says, I was one of your first

customers when you first came to Grand Haven.”

I: That‟s right. You were.

R: We got to talking, you know, and I says, and he got ready to leave, you know, and I

says, “Well, say hello to you,” you know.

I: You did?

R: Yeah, I gotta make an appointment with you one of these days, too.

I: Yeah, are you having trouble with your…?

R: Yeah, right here. I try to keep „em in the mouth. They keep falling out.

I: Aw, gee.

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R: The top part is alright.

I: Okay.

R: But the…

I: The lowers are bouncing around.

R: Yeah, they are. I can‟t chew on apples or anything.

I: Yeah, that‟s no good. You can get up there alright, can you?

R: Huh?

I: You can get up there alright?

R: I don‟t know if I can make it or not.

I: Well, I could bring the pliers here, and tighten „em for you.

R: Oh, I got a pair of pliers.

I: Well, they have to be a little more delicate than that.

R: Oh.

I: I got my own little wire twisters. I could do that. Let me try that, and if I can do that,

that‟ll save you a trip up there.

R: Yeah, it‟s hard for me to get up there. About the only time I get out is like, Thursday, I

gotta go in for surgery.

I: Do you really?

R: Yeah. I have cancer, you know.

I: I‟ll be darned.

R: They found cancer, and it‟s spread, so they‟re gonna cut it out, but then my sister-in-

law‟s gonna pick me up and take me to there, and of course, they got an elevator, you

know…

I: Sure.

R: I can get on the elevator if I can get in a wheelchair…

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I: Sure.

R: And then they pushed me on the elevator, but otherwise, I don‟t get out unless

somebody picks me up.

I: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I can do that.

R: And then, of course, I got a three year old bike that I use out in the garage.

I: Oh have you?

R: I get out there, and I can pedal that. It‟s motorized, too, so if I get tired of pedaling, I

can use the motor.

I: Oh, great.

R: I just get around here, I dasn‟t go across the highway when there‟s too much traffic,

you know…

I: Yeah.

R: And, I just go around the block here, to get a little exercise, to see what the other half

of the neighborhood is doing…

I: Sure, sure.

R: But otherwise I sit here and watch my TV, and I listen to my tapes, I got the tapes…

I: Oh, yeah, I see.

R: I get from the machines, I get from the handicapped and the blind, I got one over there

I just got yesterday, I didn‟t get a chance to play it. It‟s on a record, and I used to get that

United States News and World Report…

I: Yes.

R: Magazine, you know.

I: Uh eh.

R: And of course, my eyes, I can‟t see to read, I was prêt near blind, and I couldn‟t see at

all, but now the doctor‟s Visser, the doctor from Grand Rapids, a specialist, and he

changed my medication, and now I get so I can open my eyes, I can read a little bit, but

not for long.

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I: That‟s very good, though.

R: But the only thing I can see to read is…

I: The big stuff.

R: The big stuff, like this isn‟t too bad yet, but it‟s like newspapers have too fine a print, I

can‟t see that.

I: Yeah, uh eh.

R: I read the big headlines, you know, and that‟s it, and look at the pictures.

I: Sure. Has this been your home area all of your life or?

R: Yeah. I was born and raised in Grand Haven.

I: Yeah, but on the East side?

R: Well, my homestead is 909 Penoyer. My nephew lives in there now.

I: Oh, yeah. Okay.

R: About two or three houses off the…

I: The highway.

R: The highway. They got that there credit union on the corner there.

I: Yes that‟s right, sure.

R: Then that Keaken, Gordy Keaken used to live in this house, and then it was a big gray

house trimmed in white, that‟s the old homestead…

I: Oh, yeah.

R: And my nephew lives there.

I: Now was Ferry School always there?

R: Well, it was Forth Ward School…

I: Okay.

R: It would be Forth Ward.

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I: And that‟s where you went to school?

R: That‟s where I went to school, and I went to fourth grade, as high as fourth grade…

I: Uh eh.

R: And then, when I went there, and then in 1927, they put that addition on there, and

built a gym and then on the west end of it, they built more classrooms, and then it went

up to sixth grade, fifth or sixth grade „cause I remember you got six grades, if you got up

to sixth grade, then I transferred to Central School, and I went up to the old Central

School…

I: Sure.

R: [Inaudible], and that‟s where I finished. I went to seventh, eighth grade…

I: Oh yes.

R: That went up to eighth grade…

I: Uh eh.

R: And of course, then ninth grade was over in the…

I: High school.

R: In the high school.

I: Which was on Seventh Street.

R: It was on Seventh Street.

I: Uh eh.

R: And of course, then I went to the high school there, and I went to the first year of high

school there. [Aside: Hi, Sweetie!”]

I: Hi, Dave Seibold. Good to see you.

R: That‟s my daughter.

I: Yes.

[Conversation with daughter]

I: So how many ward schools were there? Columbus Street, of course, I knew about.

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R: First, second, third, and fourth Ward.

I: Okay, now where was the First Ward?

R: The First Ward was up in Mortgage Heights, that‟s up with the hospital, you know.

I: What did you call it? Mortgage Heights?

R: Yeah. Mortgage Heights.

I: Up by the hospital, where the heck was that?

R: Well, where the hospital is on the Taylor and Sheldon…

I: Sure, and there was a school there.

R: There wasn‟t no school…

I: Oh, I see.

R: The Mary White School is back there now.

I: Of course.

R: But before that it used to be all farm land there.

I: I see.

R: It was Botbyl‟s farm.

I: I see.

R: And the house still stands on Grand Avenue and Wisconsin Avenue.

I: Oh yes.

R: Right on the corner there, it‟s been remodeled, and everything, but the original house

is there, and they just…

I: Was that have been the original Botbyl home?

R: Yeah, the original Botbyl farm.

I: Uh eh.

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R: And of course, that was all farm, you know, cow pasture out there, and…

I: Grand Avenue wasn‟t there.

R: Well, Grand Avenue wasn‟t there, no.

I: And what year is that we‟re talking about?

R: Let me see, that was about 1916, 17, 18, in there, and anyway, where Grand Avenue is

now, there was nothing there, it was just wilderness over there.

I: Yeah.

R: And on Sheldon and Grand, Sheldon runs through Robbins Road…

I: Yes.

R: But it was just [inaudible]

I: From there on, it was nothing, huh?

R: But up by Grand Avenue there, the Buells, and Vada (?) lived there, big white house, I

don‟t know if it‟s there now yet or not, well Grand Avenue goes through now…

I: Yes.

R: But on the West side of Sheldon, East side of Sheldon…

I: East side.

R: Used to be the biggest apple orchard.

I: Oh, okay.

R: And, used to have apples, but then beyond that, old sand dunes, and sand burrs, and…

I: That wasn‟t a road that you could take along the lake shore or not?

R: Yeah, that was…

I: Sheldon?

R: Yeah, „cause it all went straight down pass Rosie Mound…

I: Sure.

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R: But later, later they changed that and clear up to Robbins Road, of course, outside of

the city limits, it stopped there…

I: Yeah.

R: But otherwise that was all Botbyl‟s farm there. Right on the corner was, you probably

knew this, they got the big tanks there, they got these oxygen tanks at Sheldon and

Taylor…

I: Sheldon and Taylor.

R: The hospital probably owned them, right on the corner there.

I: Uh eh.

R: There used to be what we called a Pest House.

I: Okay.

R: Years ago we didn‟t have a hospital there, you know, and we had a Pest House out

there, and anybody like somebody‟d get diphtheria or scarlet fever I don‟t know too

much about this stuff. So they‟d put „em out there. It was a big home, a big square home

and they used, and they kept them out there, and they had somebody take care of „em,

[inaudible], and that‟s where they isolated them out there.

I: Huh.

R: And if they made it, okay, they‟d send them home, but if not, they didn‟t know too

much if it was catching, you know…and they had a little cemetery out in the back with

the ornamental fencing, you know…

I: Yeah.

R: And that‟s where they buried them out there.

I: Huh.

R: I imagine some of the bodies are still there, I don‟t know.

I: Yeah.

R: But anyway, and after they, William Hatton

I: Right.

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R: He donated this great big house back of the Presbyterian Church, I guess it belonged

to, they just tore down now, the Presbyterian Church…

I: Yes.

R: They bought it, but he donated that and they called Hatton Memorial Hospital, and

they made a hospital out of that. That was our first hospital.

I: Wonder what year that was. I could check on that, but…

R: Gee, I forget when it was. That was back in the „30s when we first…

I: Got the hospital?

R: Yeah, and…

I: Where did you say Botbyl‟s home was again, on the corner of Sheldon and…?

R: Sheldon and Wisconsin. Sheldon runs north and south, not Sheldon, but on the corner

of Grand Avenue and Wisconsin.

I: Okay.

R: Grand Avenue was nothing there, that was all farm…

I: It stopped right there?

R: It stopped there, uh eh, by Wisconsin see?

I: Okay.

R: Grand Avenue, that was all hills and everything. Of course, now it goes all the way out

to the Lake, but that was all hills and sand dunes and just stopped at the foot of the hill

there, and then they put Wisconsin through, of course that was all cow pasture all the way

out there. Where all those homes are now and the school is, and Botbyl‟s farmhouse was

out there, and I was telling you, after the Pest House they had a ball field out there.

I: Oh yeah.

R: And they had covered stands and bleachers…

I: Oh.

R: Covered stands, and a big board fence around there that was a diamond…

I: Yeah.

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R: And they first started the city league, you know, hard ball and of course, Eagle Ottawa

had a baseball team, Teller Tool had a baseball team and independent teams and they‟d

play out there, and then they had the, I‟d say about three, four groups…

I: Uh eh.

R: And it kind of petered out, there wasn‟t too much interest, you know.

I: Yeah, yeah.

R: And it petered out, and little by little, the ball thing fell apart, and they tore it down,

and of course, then the hospital bought it, the city bought it up and they built the hospital

up there.

I: That‟s right. Yeah. Now that Botbyl farm was on the, would have been the southwest

corner?

R: It‟d be, go up Grand Avenue towards the Lake…

I: Yes.

R: It‟d be on the northeast corner.

I: Northeast corner? I‟ll be darned. It‟d be on the right hand side there?

R: Right hand side. As you go up you know…

I: Uh eh.

R: Up Grand Avenue toward the Lake, it‟d be on this corner here.

I: I‟ll be darned.

R: „Cause on the other side well Wisconsin runs through there now…

I: Yes.

R: And the other side, they made all new houses.

I: Uh eh.

R: And of course, south of Grand Avenue, there is nothing there, that‟s all sandhill,

nothing there.

I: But the northeast side? Okay, I know which house that is.

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R: [Inaudible] I think North Ottawa, I think they own all of that property there, but I‟m

not sure.

I: I think they probably do, yeah.

R: All those houses.

I: All that Ottawa‟s from Ottawa over to Grand.

R: Yeah.

I: Uh eh.

R: From Taylor over to Grand, they own.

I: Is it Taylor? Okay

R: Taylor, then there‟s Ottawa, that street in between there…

I: Uh eh.

R: And then Grand Avenue, but they own all of it.

I: Sure, they do.

R: Those houses

I: Sure.

R: Then we, North Ottawa owns that there.

I: Well, you remember then when the, that would have been the 1920s, if you were here

in the teens, what year were you born?

R: I was born in 1915.

I: 1915?

R: Yeah.

I: So your recollection begins about 1919, 1920?

R: Oh, my dad used to take me downtown, you know, and we‟d ride the streetcars and

stuff, but I remember that, I was six or seven years old…

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I: Uh.

R: But my Grandparents used to, my mother‟s folks, you know, they used to live down

on the Second Street, between Elliot and Fourth Street.

I: Uh eh.

R: The house still stands there today. The first house burned down, they built another one

next to it.

I: Okay.

R: It‟s a white bungalow type, and it‟s still there on the west side of the street.

I: Gosh, what store was right down there in that area where you did your shopping?

R: There was a, on Third, was it Third and Elliot? Yeah, Third and Elliot, there used to be

Cooks…

I: Okay.

R: Grocery Store.

I: Uh.

R: And then they had right next door to it, it was VanSchelven‟s Meat Market, you know,

John VanSchelven.

I: Sure.

R: And Louie VanSchelven, it used to be the meat market right next door to it.

I: That was their father?

R: Yeah, Bill VanSchelven, had a son, too, name of Bill, too…

I: Uh eh.

R: But the old man was named Bill, too. Boy, he was big heavy, he was German, you

know? He was a big, heavy guy, you know, and I can still see him, big meat block, he

was always doing things with a cleaver, you know…

I: Start whacking away at it?

R: Yeah. A string butcher, you know, and they didn‟t sell anything, it was a meat market.

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I: Sure.

R: They didn‟t sell, like now they sell bread and canned goods and buy a balloon or

anything, toothpicks or anything in the store, but then, it was just plain meat. He was just

selling meat.

I: Uh.

R: Cook‟s next door, the grocery store, he didn‟t sell meat, he just sold groceries.

I: Uh eh.

R: Eggs and flour and chicken and stuff like that, you know.

I: Bread?

R: Bread.

I: Milk?

R: Milk.

I: Yeah?

R: The farmers would bring in the milk, you know, and leave some milk.

I: Sure, sure. Now did you have a delivery, a milk delivery?

R: Yeah. Bill Warber and Louie Warber, Bill lived out by Griffin School…

I: Oh, yeah.

R: The house still stands there.

I: Uh eh.

R: And he had cows, and of course, that‟s all cow pasture out there, too…

I: Is that right?

R: Yeah. He had cows and milk, you know, and his brother, Louie, he was on the, let me

see that would be Beechtree, across from one of the little factories out there Stamped

Products…

I: Yep, yep.

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R: Up on the hill, and of course, he had cows, and he delivered milk with a horse and

wagon, you know.

I: Sure.

R: And the only dairy they had in town here was down on Fulton Street, in back of the

Dyke House, he had horses, back of where the library and the Community Center.

I: Oh yes.

R: Back there.

I: Okay.

R: That was a dairy there.

I: Uh eh.

R: But before that across the street on Fourth and Fulton Street, there was a, used to be a

store there, and a couple little stores. There was a bakery there, and a store, and Tom

Ryder, fellow by the name of Tom Ryder…

I: Sure.

R: He started the dairy in there, and my brother used to work for him,

I: Huh.

R: It got bigger and he needed more room, so then they moved across the street, you

know, across Fulton Street back of the Community Center there.

I: Yes.

R: They had the dairy there. That was Tom Ryder‟s Dairy, and then right next door there

was the Meat Dykehouse, had the horses, team horses, and that‟s where they used to keep

all the horses that delivered milk…

I: Oh, I see, sure.

R: And then of course, there when Tom Ryder passed away, then Al Miller…

I: That was Miller‟s then, uh eh.

R: Then it became Miller‟s Dairy, and then after Al Miller passed on, it became

Charlie‟s.

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I: Yeah, that‟s right.

R: Charlie‟s Dairy.

I: You‟re right.

R: And then, of course, after that, well, then he sold out to [inaudible] someplace, there

seems to be a dairy there…

I: A bottling company.

R: Yeah, but I used to go out in the country with … milk house, and farmers out in the

country, and [inaudible], milk company, and sometimes we‟d have excess milk, and then

we‟d drop it off at Pet Milk, and sometimes we had a shortage of milk, the farmers, you

know, didn‟t make quite enough for what we needed. Then we‟d pick milk up at the Pet

Milk Company, and we‟d haul it into [inaudible], and my brother, he‟d pasteurize it, too.

I: Sure.

R: And my brother‟d unload it, my brother‟d dump it into the big vat, you know, and then

he‟d run it through the pasteurizer.

I: Uh eh, yeah.

R: Had the big vats upstairs, you know, and he‟d dump the milk up in there, and of

course, they had the coil and [inaudible], and they‟d pasteurize it, and one vat was for the

milk, and another vat, they used to make cottage cheese and stuff in it, cottage cheese and

stuff in the other vat…

I: Huh.

R: Then after it got pasteurized, you know, you used to run down over the aerators, then

they had a bottling machine, they‟d bottle it in bottles, you know…

I: Uh eh.

R: It‟d get through a little door, and a man would be in there and put „em in the case, you

know, stack „em in the cooler.

I: Sure.

R: Then afterwards, then they started to make ice cream, when Miller…

I: Yes, I remember Miller ice cream.

R: Miller ice cream, and my brother used to make the ice cream.

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I: Oh, did he really? Now was he older or younger?

R: He was older than I was, and I used to go down to, I was still going to school, I used to

go down there, and I knew just about when to go, when they were making ice cream, you

know, they had the big freezer, you know, and they made it in, and of course, every so

often, they had to check it, you know…

I: Sure.

R: See if…, I get there just about the time, I knew just about the time they were doing it,

these five gallon cans, you know, that they put it in, you know, I‟d get a cover like that,

you know on the can, and just eat that up, and I‟d sit there and have ice cream, you know.

They had all different flavors, and that was, and then after he started making ice cream,

he‟d put it up in these five gallon cans, you know, and then they built in the front, like a

bar, you know, so people could come in and buy ice cream there, and ice cream cones

and stuff, and boy, I remember they used to have a great slew of ice cream cones.

I: Oh, yes. I remember those.

R: And my sister-in-law, my brother‟s wife, when she was going to school yet, you

know, she used to work there…

I: Uh eh.

R: …They didn‟t have scoops like they got now. They had a spoon, but they dig down in

rainbow ice cream, one color maybe white ice cream, vanilla ice cream and another color

maybe orange and the thing‟d be way up here, you could put a half a gallon of ice cream

on there. [Lots of laughter]

I: We used to have the triple cone…

R: Yeah.

I: And that‟s the rainbow that I thought you could have a red, a chocolate and a vanilla or

three different flavors, you remember those?

R: Yeah, I remember those, too. They started that, before they just had the one cone, you

know, a big cone like that. It was kind of messy, you know, a lot of the kids came in

there, and then like that, it‟d flop on the floor [laughter], we had to clean it up, you know.

I: Sure.

R: Then they got like you mentioned, and then they got some regular ice cream scoop,

you know, the bigger size, you know.

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I: Yeah, uh eh.

R: And then put it on, different flavors, you know.

I: Sure, sure, that was…

R: But…

I: Well, what, you weren‟t too far from City Hall then?

R: No.

I: You probably ventured up there as a kid.

R: I helped build City Hall.

I: Oh, did you really?

R: City hall and the Fire Department, I helped build that. When we had a fire station over

on Washington and Fifth Street, you know, they got a monument of some sort, I don‟t

know what it is.

I: Oh, yes.

R: That‟s where the Fire Station used to be when they had horses, you know.

I: Mm eh.

R: And they had, the Police Department was in there, and the City Hall was in there, too,

upstairs.

I: Oh, yes.

R: City Hall and Police Department and everything was all up in there „cause that‟s

where we go pay our electric bills, and taxes and stuff, you‟d go up there, but in 1934, the

old fire station, that used to be Akeley College…

I: Right.

R: That was a girl‟s college

I: Right.

R: And, well, I don‟t know what happened that it petered out, but they done away with

the college.

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I: Uh eh.

R: And they tore that down I helped tear it down, and that‟s when they first started

getting jackhammers, you know, other wise, it was always…

I: Sledgehammers.

R: Sledgehammers, but it was when jackhammers came into…

I: In ‟34?

R: In ‟34. We tore that down, and we built the fire station, and at the same time, they

started the project for the City Hall, Ello Emery, I don‟t know if you heard his name, he

lived on the corner of Columbus and Fifth, and he was the head boss of the project. He

was the boss of the project. In ‟34 they built the fire station, and the city hall. I worked on

tearing the Akeley College down, and helped pour the footings and concrete, for the fire

station, and of course, I went over to the city hall they moved, of course, when the mason

got ready, they had other help you know, for the masons,…

I: Mm eh.

R: For the bricks, but I went to city hall and helped pour that and when they went up with

the brick on there, I carried high…

I: Oh, boy!

R: Up three floors, you know, up at the top was, there were like that, you know.

I: Yeah.

R: And I carried plaster, they had plaster, you know, and you put that on your shoulder

and you walked up the…

I: Boy!

R: Carried that…

I: Carried it over your head like this?

R: No, you carried it on your shoulder, it‟d rest on your shoulders. It was just like, it was

so long and about so high, like that, it had a long handle on it…

I: Yeah, right.

R: And they‟d fill that with plaster, lay it on your shoulder and then you‟d carry it up,

you‟d dump it on their, they had a board, you know, you‟d put the plaster on, and then

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they‟d plaster the wall and ceiling and stuff. I carried hawks for that, but before that at

Akeley College, they had two buildings, one was the professor‟s stayed, you know, and

teachers…

I: Mm eh.

R: One was right where city hall was, and the other one was where the telephone

company is…

I: Oh, yes.

R: The one that set there, and then of course, the college was on Columbus and Fifth…

I: Oh yes, uh eh.

R: And back of the college and then Hio Dornbos lived there, from the fish house, you

know, and on the corner back of him…I can‟t remember who the peoples was, and then

around the corner there, right next to where the fire station is now, right on the corner

there, used to be a Congregational Church.

I: Oh, yes, right.

R: It had the steeple on, you know, and right in back of it, the house was a parsonage, and

the minister lived there, and then on the corner, I forget who it was that lived on the

corner.

I: Did that church, was that church torn down?

R: It was torn down.

I: Uh eh.

R: Yeah, we used to go up there in the belfry…

I: Uh eh.

R: They used to have pigeons up there.

I: It was a long way up there, too.

R: We used to go up there at night, and of course, if you‟d catch the pigeons, you‟d take

„em home, wring the neck you know…

I: Sure.

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R: And clean „em up and boy, it was just like Cornish hens, you know [inaudible], and of

course, in those days, that was a treat, you know. It was hard to get stuff with the

depressions and everything.

I: Uh eh.

R: And we‟d go up there and get 10, 15 of „em up there, and take „em home and mother

would cook „em up…

I: Yeah.

R: We‟d have squab, we called „em squab.

I: Yeah.

R: But I‟ll never forget the time Louise Snell, I went to second church, Second Reform

Church, it‟s Seventh Day Adventist Church now on…

I: Yes, on Washington and Sixth?

R: Yeah, on Washington and Sixth. That was the church I was brought up in, and we was

gonna do some redecorating in the sanctuary, you know, and the congregational church, I

don‟t know what happened to them, but they fell apart, and the church is still there yet,

and they had an old pipe organ in there, and you know, it had pedals in there…

I: Sure. Where did they get the bellows from?

R: The bellows, you know, so we got to use that Congregational Church to hold our

services while we were remodeling and painting in the Church, see, and I got the job

because I was a big husky fellow…

I: Oh yeah.

R: I got the job to work in the bellows, [laughter], and Louise Snell, she was gonna

practice, you know, early Sunday morning, you could get there early before the

congregation gets in there, and it hadn‟t been used for a long time…

I: Mm eh.

R: So I went in the back and they had big pedals, you know, just like they had on pianos,

you know…

I: Yes, the roller or the player piano?

R: Like a player piano, you know, and these operated the bellows, you know, you had to

pump it to get air in so she could play the organ. She set up, [inaudible] with the pipes up

21

there, so she got up there cleaned the organ off, and I started pumping on it, and a

sparrows flew out there because they had their nests built…

I: I‟ll be darned.

R: And she said, “Stop, stop!” So I came around, and there sparrows were flying around

inside, you know, and she said, “We can‟t…”

I: “Can‟t play the organ today.”

R: “Can‟t play the organ today.” It hadn‟t been used for so many years.

I: Well, sure.

R: Those sparrows, I‟ll never forget that.

I: Well, you know, when you were first growing up, there probably weren‟t a lot of

telephones…

R: No.

I: And I‟ll bet not everyone had electricity.

R: No, we had, my folks on Pennoyer, we had gas, the old time pipe coming down from

the ceiling, and four gas lights, and Dad had a what you call it, like on a stick with a little,

like a little bell, you know…

I: Uh eh.

R: He‟d light it you know, and then when you wanted to put it out, you‟d put that thing

over the top of it, and turn the gas off and put that over the top of it…

I: Sure.

R: Make sure the flame was out, you know, and we didn‟t have no telephones, and next

door was Frank Helem, used to work for the telephone company here, he was a

lineman…

I: Mm eh.

R: He was next door, and I forget, my mother was pregnant, with my younger brother,

and of course, used to have, deliver babies right at home, though…

I: Yes.

22

R: And Doctor DeWitt, he lived up on Howard Street, where Marion Sherwood…up on

the hill.

I: Still there.

R: And he had a Model T Ford, Dr. DeWitt, and of course, there wasn‟t a telephone there,

but it just so happened, this Frank Halem, he come home for lunch or something, and my

mother was in labor, and her water broke, you know, and she was ready, and he pulled in

the yard, you know, so I went out and told him, you know, “Mother‟s gonna have a

baby,” and my dad, he wasn‟t home, he was working, though, and my brothers, I don‟t

know where they was, they weren‟t home, I was home anyway, and I went out and I told

Frank, and he climbed up the telephone poll, they use to have the white poles out in front

of the house, and he climbed up the telephone pole, he had a ripcord on his belt, he

plugged it in there, and he called Dr. DeWitt. Then he came down and delivered the baby.

I: I‟ll be darn.

R: I‟ll never forget that.

I: So, it was thanks to the telephone…

R: Yeah.

I: That he was able to be reached?

R: But later on, after that, then next door, [inaudible], he had of course, his partner was

Warren Stansbury in Sinko…

I: Stanco.

R: Stanco. It used to be Peerless Novelty years ago.

I: Yes.

R: But then it was his brother-in-law, he was in partnership with is brother-in-law, he

lived next door. Well, he had a telephone put in, so anytime we needed, we‟d just run

next door…

I: Oh, yeah. Was it a crank?

R: Huh?

I: Was it a crank kind or not?

R: At that time, it was on a pedestal, you know.

23

I: Sure, and probably, you called central you said, “Would you give me…?”

R: Yeah, you had to call central, call the operator, you know, and tell „em what you want.

I: That was the case until 1950, I think it was ‟56.

R: Yeah, „cause I had one, when I first went to the fire department, I lived on Clinton,

113 Clinton, I think it was, north of Vandenburg‟s house there, it still stands, it‟s an old

house, and I had one of those telephones, but I had a private line „cause I was, I had to

have a private line „cause I was in the fire department in case the chief wanted to get hold

of me, you know.

I: Sure.

R: At the time when I was in the department, you was on call, 24 hours you know…

I: Mm eh.

R: And after a while, they give you a raise, and that‟s when I first started, but then I

moved from there over to 939 Pennoyer, I was on the ground floor, you know.

I: 939?

R: 939, right in the middle of the block.

I: Yep.

R: Of course, then I had an alarm put in, they put in an alarm for me.

I: Was it a volunteer fire department?

R: It was full paid.

I: Oh it was?

R: I was full paid.

I: Did you stay right there at the station?

R: Oh, yeah, I stayed right at the station if you had 24 on 24 off, but then they had

volunteers, too, and we had 15, 20 volunteers besides the full paid. We had three full paid

men…

I: Mm eh.

R: On duty, we had two shifts. Now they got three shifts, I guess,…

24

I: Oh yeah.

R: They got eight hour shifts now, but…

I: You were on 24?

R: On 24, then we‟d be off 24.

I: Yeah, I don‟t think they sleep there anymore.

R: Yeah, they do.

I: Do they?

R: But, third shift…

I: Yeah, they would.

R: They sleep there.

I: Okay.

R: And they have their own beds. I think they got ten beds.

I: Uh eh.

R: That‟s what we had up in the dorm when I was there, ten beds. Anyway, I could see,

where was I?

I: About the number of people, how many on your shift?

R: Oh, yeah, we had three men on our shift, and three men on opposite.

I: So there were only three [inaudible]?

R: And Robert Rose, he passed away.

I: What year was this then?

R: They were on full paid on the opposite shift I was.

I: Okay.

R: But I started there in 1942…

25

I: Oh yeah.

R: As a full paid fireman, but like I was saying when they had the fire station over on

Washington Street, I was a volunteer fireman before I became a full paid member.

I: That‟s when it was horse drawn, then?

R: They had horses then, and I wasn‟t in there too long, I think it was about 1935, ‟34,

when I became a volunteer fireman, and Keith Voshel, we called Fuzzy Voshel, used to

be Janitor at the Fourth Ward at School…

I: Okay, Ferry School.

R: Well, Ferry School now but Voshel and John Ott, he passed away and Tony Pippel

used to be fire chief over there, and John Ott, and Bill Kuntz, yeah it was Bill Kuntz,

John Ott, Gerrit Voshel, Gerrit Vandanbrant, they were all over, and then I became a

volunteer, you know, I think it was ‟34 or ‟35, and I wasn‟t in that station too long, you

know, and ‟34 is when we started building the…

I: Building the new one.

R: New one, and then …, the first real big fire went through his Carl Berg Garage

downtown.

I: Oh my gosh., yes.

R: Pontiac, and I was volunteer then when that burned down.

I: Well, that was in the „50s.

R: That was in 1936.

I: Oh, ‟36?

R: 1936.

I: Okay, that‟s another fire then.

R: Yeah, and boy, that morning it was about six below zero, it was cold.

I: What month was it? February, January?

R: Right around January. It was cold, I know, „36, they were working on the new station,

in ‟34 they started, and then 1936, they moved from across the street over to the new

station.

26

I: After you completed it? Now city hall hadn‟t been built yet?

R: Well, they were working on it. It was part of the same project, but they didn‟t move in

there, but they moved into the new fire station in ‟36, but then the city hall, I guess it

must have been later in ‟37, or ‟38 when they moved in there. They had it all completed

though, and yeah.

I: When did they tear down the old one then? Right away?

R: Yeah, it wasn‟t too long afterwards, they tore the old one down, and I know Bud Boer

he had the first hearse, he had a hearse, you know, for when they had funerals. Well then

Bud Boer is down there where…

I: Yes.

R: Well that that use to be Bud Boer‟s furniture store and he was a mortician too.

I: Sure, sure.

R: Tom Kiel and Bud Boer and of course, they used to have funerals in the homes, not

like the funeral parlor that they got now, and…

I: Sure that would be Corny Wagener‟s Dad?

R: Yeah.

I: Ruth Hoek and Corny Wagner, sure.

R: Anyway, he had a hearse, it was a square one, you know, and he used to keep it down

by the fire station „cause when he wasn‟t using it for a hearse, they‟d use it for

ambulance.

I: Oh.

R: They had a decal or something they put on, a red cross, you know, on the side, you

know, it was a square outfit, but you could still see it was a hearse.

I: It was an automobile. [Inaudible]

R: And Lawrence DeWitt, he came from Holland, and he was the first Police Officer…

I: Oh yes, okay, and what year was that?

R: That was in the „30s when he came here. I forget just when, in ‟29, „30s something

like that. And He had his office in with the fire chief, and they let the police department

27

in there, and of course, where the court house is now, the old court house, and in back of

it was a jail.

I: Oh yes, yep. Not very big either.

R: No, not very big. They only had two or three cells and a padded cell, I remember.

I: They did have a padded cell?

R: Oh yeah. I know Andies (?) used to be Sheriff years ago and Bill Boeve took over

from him, I guess, and he was there for a long time, and I remember one time that Pinky

the barber, he had a barbershop downtown, and he was one of these types that could

[inaudible], he‟d get stinking drunk at home, and…

I: Anyway, did he still try to cut hair then?

R: Yeah, anyway, he got stinking drunk and he got the shakes, and they had a nurse out

of the hospital…

I: Oh ho.

R: That‟s when we had cruisers, you know. [Inaudible], and I was in the fire department

then, that was in the „40s, ‟43, ‟45, when they had him out there, and you know, that was

at night. I was up on duty, and Chuck Rumsey was one he was on.

I: It‟s the one, well he‟s retired now?

R: Yeah, he‟s retired, but he was on duty, I forget, oh, Aubrey Goldman

I: I‟ll be darned.

R: That was Lawrence DeWitt‟s, son-in-law.

I: Sure.

R: [Inaudible]

I: That would have been what, 46?

R: ‟45 or ‟46.

I: Yeah, because Goldman, I think, came here and was in the Coast Guard, wasn‟t he?

R: Yeah.

I: Yeah.

28

R: They were all up at the hospital, see? And they think he, this one nurse, they got to

talking to her, and he put up a fuss and disturbed the other patient, he shut the door, and

he put a chair under it, and they couldn‟t open up the door, and they didn‟t know what to

do, they couldn‟t get in, and he was hollerin and everything, and making all kinds of

noise you know, so they had to call for help. The only help they could get, they come up

and got me out of the fire department.

I: Oh, sure.

R: I went down there, and of course, I had the boots and everything, you know, and the

clothes I wear up there, and I said, “What‟s the trouble?” And he said, “the patient …get

the snakes, and he is in the room with the nurse and we can‟t get in the door.” And I said

“Why don‟t you break the door down?” He said, “Oh, yeah. I‟ll wake all the other

patients up.” I said, “You can hear „em hollerin now.”

I: Gonna wake „em up anyway?

R: So I got my shoulder against the thing and I busted the door in, and there he had this

nurse on the bed around the throat. Well, I got in there and the rest of them, they stood

out there in the hall. And I got a hammerlock on him, I put pressure on him, and when

you get that on you, it really hurts, and I waltzed him out of there and, she started to turn

blue, you know…

I: He was intending to kill her?

R: Yeah, he didn‟t know what he was doing, but I waltzed him out of there, and I says,

“Boy, this is no place for him.” I said, “You better get him down to the jail.” So Chuckie,

he said, “I‟ll get the cruiser around.” He went out to get the cruiser, meet us at the door,

so we got him out of this room, and he was itching to go outside in the main entrance,

and right dead ahead they had a room there where they used to keep all the medications,

and hypos and stuff, and they just got through filling all the syringes for their…

I: Make their rounds?

R: Their rounds, and they had „em all laid out and filled up and all, and we got him out in

the lobby there, and he said, “I could use some water.” Well, the nurse, “Well, we could

give him some water.” I still had that hammerlock on him, he was up on his toes, so the

nurse, she opened up the refrigerator and she got a glass of water and give it to him, and,

of course, the officer said, “You can let him go. He‟ll be alright,” so he gave up on his

own because he was the officer on duty…

I: Sure.

29

R: I let the hammerlock go, you know, and the nurse was gonna hand him a glass of

water. He took it, threw it in her face, and he run past her into that room where they had

all the syringes. He grabbed one of those syringes…

I: I‟ll be darned.

R: [Inaudible], I guess the one that had morphine in it, and boy, Chuck, he was scared to

go in there, so I barreled in there and I ducked under, so he couldn‟t get the syringe at me

with that syringe in his hand, I ducked under and I got another hammerlock on him. Put

the pressure on, you know, and he dropped the syringe on the floor. The nurse picked it

up, and I waltzed him out of there, and I said, “Come on, that‟s it.” And I waltzed him out

the front door into the cruiser, and got him in the cruiser, and I still had the hammerlock

on him, I was on his right side, and Roman was on his left side.

I: In the back of the cruiser?

R: In the back seat.

I: Uh eh.

R: Chuckie was driving the cruiser, and I think he spotted it, Goldman had his revolver

there and I think he spotted that, you know…

I: He was gonna try and get that.

R: He was gonna try and grab that revolver, see? Well, I see it, look at that, boy I give

him a little more pressure, whoo!, he straightened right up, you know, and Chuckie, he

made tracks for the jail. We got up on the jail on Fourth Street there, and got him out, and

with that hammerlock on him, and got him up into the jail there, and…

I: Where was the entrance? Was the entrance on Fourth Street?

R: On Fourth Street.

I: Yeah, yeah, I‟ve seen pictures of it, yeah.

R: Yeah, and we got him up there, and [inaudible], and Frank Salisbury, he was a turkey,

and he come to the door, he was in his nightshirt yet, night cap on you know.

I: That‟s old fashioned.

R: We got him in the office, you know, and so then Chuck says, “Well, you can let him

go now. We can handle him now.” So I no sooner than let him go than I won‟t forget. We

come in through the door, come in over there…

I: Uh eh.

30

R: And they had a desk over here, and over in this corner here was a door where we went

into the cell block where the cells were.

I: Sure.

R: And they had something over here, too, I forget what it was, and I got him in here, and

he acted like he was asleep, you know, like that…

I: Oh, you mean, the cell?

R: I said, “What you got?” And could see if Pinky was…

I: Staggering around?

R: Staggering around, and I let him loose, and boy, I‟m telling you, they had a, he was a

scrapper. Of course, he was a short, heavy set guy.

I: Uh eh.

R: And I‟ll be damned when Chuck, Nate was wrestling with him, the turn keyed, he

wrestled the three of them, they couldn‟t handle him, boy, he was strong, you know, so I

got in there, and got another hammerlock on him.

I: Had you been a wrestler?

R: Well, I used to box. I was a boxer.

I: Oh were you?

R: Yeah. And I got another hammerlock on, well I used to wrestle…

I: Just for the fun of it?

R: Yeah. I wasn‟t a professional. Anyway, I got a hammerlock on him, and boy that

brought him right up and he had everything, the chairs and everything upside down in

there, and I said, “Where do you want him?” And they said, “Bring him in here,” and

they had a padded cell, so I put him in the padded cell…

I: Let him bang around in there?

R: Yeah, they had good pads on the walls, you know…

I: Sure.

R: He couldn‟t hurt himself in there.

31

I: Yeah.

R: So, then I went out and of course, I went back to the station then, so I‟ll never forget

that.

I: Oh, isn‟t that something else? Now that would have been when? You said, ‟46, 7,

somewhere in there.

R: Yeah, ‟46, it was about ‟45, or ‟46, 1946.

I: Did Pinky live much longer after that?

R: No. After he got out of the jug, you know, and he went back to his barbershop, I didn‟t

hear any more…

I: Kind of faded away?

R: Kind of faded away, yeah.

I: Drank himself right…

R: Yeah, same with Bill Coats, used to be in the fire department volunteers, he used to

drink like a fish, and his brother, Frank, he was good, he worked with the boys

department…

I: Oh yes.

R: City Light Department and it was just the opposite.

I: Huh.

R: Old Bill, I know when they moved from Washington Street over to the new building,

Bill was there for a while, you know, and he wouldn‟t show up at the fires or nothing

ahead of time, and he passed away. He drank himself to death.

I: Yeah, well, you know, where did Pinky practice? Where was his barbershop?

R: His barbershop was down, you know where Floto‟s was?

I: Yes, right.

R: Down in that block, and I think it was on [both talking], Seifert‟s had the bowling

alley, past the bowling alley, one of those little places there.

I: Okay.

32

R: I don‟t know what kind of, I haven‟t been down there for so long, I don‟t know what

kind of stores they got down there anymore.

I: Yeah, I know it. It is tough to keep up with it. But you know, it wasn‟t unusual at all

when I was younger, a youngster, and it was during the depression, to see fellows drunk

on the street.

R: Oh yeah, especially on Saturday night was the night you know that used to be.

Business would stay open that night…

I: Oh yes.

R: On Saturday night, of course, that‟s when you had horses, too, and streetcars down

through there, and you‟d see „em line up right down in the block where Addison Baltz…

I: Oh yeah.

R: They‟d all be lining up, the horses, [inaudible]…

I: Uh eh.

R: They were tied up there, and then, of course, when the cars came in, you know, and

then, the cars was parked there from Third Street down.

I: Sure. What did they do for gasoline?

R: For gasoline?

I: Yeah, where did they get it?

R: George Botbyl used to have a station right on the corner of Seventh and Washington

Street.

I: Oh yeah, right, sure.

R: There‟s a parking lot there now.

I: Yep.

R: And he started a gas station, and he had the first taxi service in town. He, remember he

had an old green…car with a big black charger, the first taxi cab.

I: Huh.

R: Then he built the garage there.

33

I: Sure. Began to sell cars.

R: And then he had a Plymouth and Crysler cars.

I: Yeah, right. The Seventh Street area of town, they call it Center Town now.

R: Yeah.

I: Was that a pretty going area or…?

R: Oh, yeah, right where the, I guess they called it the Hangar…

I: Yes, that‟s right, yeah.

R: It‟s an eating place there.

I: Yeah, uh eh.

R: It used to be Berchie‟s Grocery Store years ago on the corner there.

I: Berkie?

R: Berchie.

I: Oh, Berchie.

R: Berchie‟s Grocery Store, and you‟d go in there and they‟d have crackers and cookies

and stuff, they had „em all in barrels…

I: Oh, yeah, uh eh.

R: If you wanted to get sugar or something, they‟d put it up in the sac, you know, a pound

of sugar…

I: Oh yeah.

R: And after Berchie went out of there, the State Bank, you now, the Branch Bank…

I: Oh, that‟s right, okay.

R: They built a Branch Bank and Dick Boon, Mark Boon‟s dad…

I: Okay.

R: You know, Marge Boon‟s husband?

34

I: Okay, yes, Moon Boone.

R: Moon Boon? Yeah. His dad was a teller or something down at the State Bank, so they

put him over into the new branch, and he was the head teller over there…

I: Uh eh.

R: And that went over for a little while, but it kind of petered out, you know…

I: Sure.

R: And then an A & P Store went in there.

I: Is that right?

R: Yeah, the first A & P Store they had went in there, and Bud Teunis was, he was the

manager of the A & P Store, and Bud Katt worked for him…

I: Mm eh .

R: But he‟s dead, too, now.

I: That would be a Katt from Ferrysburg?

R: I think he lived in Ferrysburg, if I remember, yeah, but Bud Katt, he worked as a

custodian at the high school, and I worked up there, too.

I: Oh.

R: I used to work at the high school.

I: Yes.

R: I left the fire department. I went to the high school.

I: Okay.

R: And I was there probably two years working there at the high school before they built

the new one, then I quit there and went to Keller Tool. That‟s the one I retired from.

I: Okay. There was a VanBemmelen that was the custodian for the Presbyterian Church.

Is that right or not?

R: No. My brother, Fred, he was custodian at the First Reformed Church.

35

I: That was it, okay, that‟s what I was thinking of.

R: And, my nephew…

I: Fred.

R: Fred, works at NBD bank now. He used to be with the Boy Scouts, he was the

Scoutmaster at the Methodist Church for the Dunes when they first started, and then he

went from there to the Presbyterian Church, he was a Scoutmaster there…

I: Okay.

R: And of course then when he was out of the Scouts…

I: When he went into the banking.

R: Yeah, he went to work then, he went to Hope College…

I: Oh, I see.

R: And then he went to work for Meijers, you know Meijer‟s foods, and he was a buyer

for „em, and he had, his home office was in Grand Rapids, and he had an office in New

York, and he went back and forth and he bought, he was a buyer for men‟s wear.

I: Mm eh.

R: Well, he was away from his family too much, though, he quit. He didn‟t care for that,

you know. He was always on the road, you know…

I: Uh eh.

R: „Cause he had all different territories. He had [inaudible], he wasn‟t home half the

time.

I: Now this is Fred you‟re talking about?

R: Yeah, my nephew, Fred, and so he got a job with Bob Bolt, you know…

I: Yeah, sure.

R: Ted Bolt‟s son.

I: Yep.

R: He got a job at the bank. Ted Bolt give him a job.

36

I: Now wait. That isn‟t Ted Bolt‟s son?

R: Yeah, young Bob.

I: Was that Ted Bolt‟s son?

R: Yeah.

I: Well, I didn‟t realize that. I didn‟t know Ted was married or had children.

R: Oh, yeah. That was Ted Bolt and Son, and of course, after Ted passed away, why then,

Bob took over…

I: Yes.

R: I don‟t know what happened there, but he took off, he didn‟t care for that.

I: That‟s right. He went to Alaska.

R: I don‟t know where he went, but anyway, he didn‟t care for that type of work, you

know. Of course, in the mean time, [inaudible], got a job there, and Fred got, he first

started out in the loan department, and he worked himself up, and now he‟s…

I: President.

R: He‟s President of this branch here.

I: Of the local branch, yeah.

R: He‟s a good influence. He went to Wisconsin to school and different places, you

know, banking schools…

I: Yeah, to learn more about it?

R: Yeah.

I: Sure. Well, tell me about your boxing days.

R: Oh, boxing? When Escanaba first came in…

I: ‟32.

R: ‟32.

I: Do you remember when that came in?

37

R: Oh, yeah.

I: Were you down there or…?

R: Well, I wasn‟t down there at the time when it came in, but there was a sailor on that,

Pat Reed, his name was, he was a little Irishman…

I: Uh eh.

R: [Inaudible], he was Walter Weight Champion of the Coast Guard…

I: Uh eh.

R: And we got acquainted here, you know, and so [inaudible], you know, and Harold

Rosema, myself, and John Sluka, that‟s Steve Sluka‟s brother…

I: Oh yes.

R: I don‟t know where he‟s at, he‟s…

I: John? Well, there‟s Bob Sluka.

R: Yeah, well, he‟s younger.

I: Okay.

R: This was the oldest, he was on the under Steve, and then John, his brother.

I: Okay.

R: Of course, there was Bob, and there was some younger ones, too, I mean, his sister, he

got two sisters, three sisters, it was, and one‟s married to Warren Salisbury that lived

right around the corner here.

I: Oh yeah.

R: And I don‟t know where the other one lived, [inaudible], boxing together, but Pat

Green, he was our trainer.

I: I‟ll be darned.

R: And, Pete VanZyland used to live, had the lumber yard here.

I: Yep.

38

R: He lived on Washington Street across from the funeral parlor from VanZantwick‟s

there, the white house.

I: Okay. Yeah.

R: And they had a big barn back there at that house at that time…

I: That‟d be right near the railroad?

R: Yeah. And there‟s a little group of stores there now.

I: Yes, okay.

R: [Inaudible], Right next to it, the big house, VanZyland‟s house, white house, in back

of it, it had a barn. Well, that‟s where we used to go in there, out in the hayloft, they had a

big hayloft there, and they gave us permission to, we‟d go up there and chatterbox, and

do calisthenics up there…

I: Uh eh.

R: And Pat and me had a Model T Ford, the tour kind, and put down the floor board,

about 35 miles, that was top speed, you know. We spent about a half hour of so up there,

jumping, skipping rope and…

I: You stayed in pretty good shape then?

R: Yeah, calisthenics, and then we spent about a half hour, we‟d get out and get in his

car, and we‟d run along side of it. He‟d have it down to the floor board, down Seventh

Street, across the bridge, North Shore Drive, you know…

I: Sure.

R: And Harold Rosema‟s folks lived out on, where those oil tanks are, you know.

I: Oh, yeah, right.

R: And his dad had a farm there.

I: Sure. And would he have a brother by the name of Morrie Rosema?

R: Yeah.

I: Right, okay.

R: They had a farm out there, and we‟d run along side this Model T all the way out

there…

39

I: Huh.

R: And when we got out there, then we‟d all go into the barn, we‟d put the gloves on,

and…

I: What year was this now?

R: It was about ‟32, 33.

I: Okay.

R: ‟34, maybe, and we‟d put the gloves on, you know, and we‟d go a couple rounds with

each, you know…

I: Uh eh.

R: And take the gloves off and Pat would get the car again, and we‟d run all the way back

to Grand Haven again. By that time, it was about 9:00 o‟clock in the evening…

I: Yeah.

R: And we was in training, so…

I: Straight home.

R: Straight home, and we‟d have to get home by 9:00 o‟clock, especially my parents, my

dad was strict, 9:00 o‟clock, lock the door.

I: Ooh!

R: If you wasn‟t there, you were just locked out, that‟s all…

I: Uh eh.

R: And mother didn‟t dare to open the door either to let you in. Dad was boss, see.

Anyway, I used to get in just before 9:00. It was timed just right, you know. I‟d get home,

and get out the big wash tub, you know, put water in it, [inaudible] set there on the pot

bellied stove in there, and take a bath.

I: That was your bath?

R: That was my bath. I‟d go to the reservoir, and get some, on the cook stove, we had a

reservoir of hot water…

I: Yeah, right, okay.

40

R: Get a big kettle of hot water and put in the tub, and dilute it down with cold water…

I: Uh eh.

R: And I‟d take my bath behind the pot bellied stove, get dried off, get in my jamas and

upstairs.

I: Right straight up to bed.

R: Of course, my Mother and Dad, they were, their bedroom was right off the parlor…

I: They were probably asleep by then.

R: They were in bed already „cause my Dad used to get up 5:00 o‟clock every morning,

and get a fire going in the cook stove, you know…

I: Sure.

R: My dad would get that all ready and get the fire going so when my Mother got up,

then she‟d, my Mother‟d get up about 6:00 o‟clock, and get my Dad‟s breakfast, and of

course, he‟d be off to work. He‟d worked at the, used to be Fountain Specialty, Bastain

Blessings…

I: Sure, he was lucky to have a job though. That was depression time.

R: Yeah, he was a tin smith.

I: Oh yes.

R: And…

I: When you said about the water, did you pump your own water?

R: No, we had…

I: Tap water?

R: We had tap water. We put in tap water, but anyway, boxing, well then, we went in to

Golden Gloves, and we‟d go up to Muskegon. We used to fight up, we had our bouts up

in Muskegon Armory.

I: Sure.

41

R: Of course, my folks, [inaudible]. I did this on the side. After supper, “Mom, could I go

out and play?” “You got your chores done?” “Yeah.” Well, instead of play, I‟d go out

and …

I: Work out.

R: Work out, see.

I: I‟ll bet you were the heaviest one, the biggest one there, weren‟t there?

R: Huh?

I: You were a heavy weight?

R: Yeah, I was a heavy weight.

I: You probably had some pretty tough ones to match up against.

R: Oh yeah. We‟d go up to Muskegon, you know, and every time I‟d, they had a doctor

who‟d examine you, you know…

I: Mm eh.

R: You‟d be able to go in there, you know, but I tell you, I had some big colored guys to

go up against, you know…

I: Uh eh.

R: And I‟d go maybe, two or three fights in one evening.

I: Wow!

R: Up there.

I: Three rounds?

R: Yeah. A three round fight, bouts, you know, but three times, it was three different

ones, you know.

I: Sure.

R: Anyway, in one of these rounds, I went with „em, and every time I‟d go up, I‟d

register under an assumed name. I didn‟t use my name, I couldn‟t use my real name.

I: Oh, is that right?

42

R: My folks would find out, and that was it, and I picked out a different name, see, every

time, I didn‟t use my same name, my own name, and I was never knocked down or

knocked out.

I: Huh.

R: I always won my bouts.

I: Did you really?

R: Yeah. I was never knocked down.

I: Well, you were in good shape.

R: I was in good shape. I gotta show you. That‟s Harold Lett

I: Alright. What‟s the date on this?

R: I don‟t know. I can‟t read it.

I: Well, it says, Harold Lett, 81, former resident of Grand Haven, died last week in

Chicago. Mr. Lett was born in 1908, and spent his early days in Grand Haven Schools.

When boxing was in its heyday, he was involved in golden gloves. He talked boxing to

many residents, and one time he was the heavy weight champion of Michigan. He sparred

with Jack Dempsey…

R: Yeah.

I: When Dempsey was trying to make a comeback. Mr. Lett also fought professionally

under the name of Ray Vegas,

R: Yeah.

I: I‟ll be darned.

R: And he used to work with my wife at Heaps…

I: Okay.

R: And they lived over on Columbus Street.

I: Uh eh.

R: 1300 block on Columbus, and anyway, I used to box with him, too, you know.

I: Oh, did you?

43

R: Golden Gloves up there and he had a brother, Arvin, too, and when they moved away

from here, they went to Chicago, and his brother, Arvin, well, he was smart.

I: Uh eh.

R: He became a professor.

I: Huh.

R: And Harold, he was with the Chicago Fire Department.

I: I saw that, yeah.

R: Then I lost track of „em for quite a while, and then Steve Sluka, he lives up on

Hillcrest…

I: Sure, sure.

R: He used to come down, and he stayed with Steve.

I: Yeah.

R: He‟d come down in the summer. Then he‟d come down and look me up, and he‟d

come over and we‟d sit on, I got a patio out in the back there, back of my garage, and we

used to sit out there for hours just reminisce, you know, talk…

I: About the boxing days?

R: Boxing days and a lot of different things. Of course he was brought up in Grand

Haven here, too, you know…

I: Sure.

R: He knew my wife, he worked with my wife at Heaps, used to make…

I: Lionel Heaps

R: Used to make toilet seats.

I: Oh is that right? Wooden

R: Wooden toilet seats. They‟d put [inaudible] plastic…

I: Okay, it was a cover on the wood…

44

R: Yeah.

I: Made it slick.

R: Yeah, lamenated.

I: Yeah, mm eh.

R: That‟s what my wife used to do and my sister-in-law used to do there.

I: Now is your wife still living?

R: No. My wife, she passed away in ‟86.

I: ‟86. I thought I remembered that. Yeah.

R: That‟s her up there.

I: Yes. I saw that.

R: I got a hold of the paper, you know, and I see it in the paper and I cut that out

[inaudible]

I: How far did you go in boxing? Did you ever go to State?

R: Yeah, well then, from there went to Grand Rapids, semi-finals…

I: Uh eh.

R: And I lost out there on a decision.

I: Mm.

R: [Inaudible]. I wasn‟t knocked down, but I know the judges and all, I lost out on a

decision. If I‟d have won there, I think I had about four votes over there, four three round

votes and if I‟d won out there I could have gone to Chicago for the finals.

I: Uh eh.

R: They had the finals there. And if I‟d have won there, then I could have gone

professional, but when I lost out there, well then…

I: That was the end of the string.

R: That was the end of it.

45

I: Well, how old were you then? You were born in 1911 you say?

R: 1915. I was, I forget…

I: You were 18, 19 years old…

R: 19, 20 years old, something like that.

I: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was a good time to be doing it, but maybe you‟re smart, it was

probably lucky you didn‟t go professional.

R: Yeah. Well, around that time, you know, my Dad took sick, you know…

I: Oh yes.

R: And he got crippled so he couldn‟t do no work.

I: Uh eh.

R: And of course, my brothers, they got married off, and I had one, two, three, four of

„em home going to school yet, and so there wasn‟t no income.

I: Sure.

R: I was the most healthiest one, you know…

I: So you had to…

R: So, that‟s why I never had a chance to finish my high school.

I: Oh, didn‟t you? You didn‟t finish high school?

R: No, I went through the first year of high school.

I: Uh eh.

R: But, then, I had to quit, get a job in the factory, start bringing the money home, „cause

my youngest sister, younger brother and two younger sisters, two sisters and a brother,

two brothers were going to school yet.

I: So it was a family of seven?

R: Seven? We had 12 of us.

I: Twelve?

46

R: Twelve of us.

I: Wow!

R: Yeah, there was six boys and six girls.

I: Huh.

R: Had a twin brother.

I: And how big a house did you have?

R: Oh, if you drive by, you‟ll see it on Pennoyer.

I: Okay. Probably three bedrooms is all you had.

R: Downstairs, they had, a bedroom that my folks slept in. Also, in the dining area, we

had another room that was about 9 by 10…

I: Uh eh.

R: And one of the kids slept in there, and it used to be a barn originally, and upstairs in

the hay loft, that‟s where the bedroom, it was as big as this room…

I: And you just had beds in there, huh?

R: And then I made them into a bedroom, had the stairway coming up, and we had a

landing, and the front part of the house, and that‟s where all the boys slept. We had two

big double beds, great big beds in there…

I: Sure.

R: In one corner we had a big walk-in closet, where we hung our clothes, and then in the

back bedroom, that‟s where all the girls slept, slept in there.

I: I‟ll bet you didn‟t have a john upstairs either, did you?

R: Oh, no?

I: Did you have indoor plumbing?

R: At first we didn‟t, but then we put indoor plumbing, a bathroom, and we had a tub, and

a stool, you know, a toilet, that‟s all we had in there.