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Comparing murder rates and gun ownership acrosscountries(http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/2014/03/comparing-murder-rates-across-countries/)

Charles Blow in the New York Times last year made the very common argument: “America has thehighest gun homicide rate, the highest number of guns per capita . . . .”(http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/20/opinion/blow-on-guns-america-stands-out.html?_r=0) Inanother story, the New York Times quotes researcher David Hemenway as claiming: “Generally, ifyou live in a civilized society, more guns mean more death.”(http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/06/sunday-review/more-guns-more-killing.html) CNN’s PiersMorgan believes: “America has the worst incidents of gun murders of any of what they call thecivilized world.” (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1207/23/pmt.01.html) Bloomberg’sBusinessweek also made similar claims (http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-03-11/a-loaded-question-gun-ownership-vs-dot-gun-deaths-worldwide) this spring. The one commonfeature for these claims is that they rely on the Small Arms Survey(http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list).

So how do homicide rates compare across countries? (Click on figures to make them larger.)

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4/26/15, 5:46 PMComparing murder rates and gun ownership across countries - Crime Prevention Research Center

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Much of the debate is focused on gun ownership rate data for 109 countries from the Small ArmsSurvey. There are real problems with this survey. For example, the rates of gun ownership for Israel(7 per 100 people) and Switzerland (supposedly 47 guns per 100 people) . Anyone who has everbeen to Israel knowns that this estimate is ridiculously low. Indeed, over time about 12 to 15percent of the adult Jewish population in Israel is allowed to carry handguns in public.

The problem with this survey excludes weapons that are technically owned by the government. Thevast majority of guns in Israel are technically owned by the government, but if people havepossession of guns in their homes for decades, the issue should be that public possession, notwho technically owned the guns. Similarly, at that time of the Small Arms Survey, all able bodiedSwiss males between the age of 18 and 42 kept their military weapons in their homes. After age42, they could apply for permission to continue to keep their military weapons. Israeli guns are alsoexcluded for the same reason.

The Small Arms Survey claims that the United States has by far the highest level of gun ownership,with 88.8 guns per 100 people. Both Israel and Switzerland probably have much higher gunownership rates, but including them the way the Small Arms Survey does biases the results to TheUS gun ownership is so high compared to other countries that it drives any regression results.

There are also other problems with the survey. For example, a much better measure of gunownership would be the percentage of the population owning guns, and not the number of guns per100 people as used by the Small Arms Survey. Presumably the issue is whether people haveaccess to guns, not the number of guns greater than one that an individual has access to.

Looking at all countries for which the Small Arms Survey measured gun ownership, and using theSmall Arms Survey data the way that it measures gun ownership, implies that more guns equalsfewer homicides.

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Usually only a small set of countries are used in any comparison, typically limited to so-called“civilized,” as Hemenway or Morgan calls them, or “developed” countries. It isn’t clear what ismeant by “civilized” countries, so what can Americans learn from these other “developed” nations?Using the developed nations as defined by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation andDevelopment (OECD) (http://www.oecd.org/about/membersandpartners/list-oecd-member-countries.htm), developed countries in fact show that more gun ownership as measured by theSmall Arms Survey is associated with fewer homicides. First, this is how homicide rates varyacross developed countries.

Books

More Guns, Less Crime(University of ChicagoPress, 3rd ed, 2010)(http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/0226493660/ref=smi_www_rco2_go_smi_1968491462?ie=UTF8&redirect=true&tag=johnrlotttrip-20&pf_rd_p=1968491462&pf_rd_s=smile-campaign&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=0226493660&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1EVK7W2Y6MDD1DBWR57G)

The Bias Against Guns(http://amazon.com/gp/product/0895261146/ref=nosim/?tag=johnrlotttrip-20)

Straight Shooting:Firearms, Economics andPublic Policy(http://amazon.com/gp/product/0936783478/ref=nosim/?tag=johnrlotttrip-20)

Freedomnomics, seeChapter 4 for a generaloverview of the economicsof crime(http://amazon.com/gp/product/1596985062/ref=nosim/?tag=johnrlotttrip-20)

Dumbing Down the Courts:How Politics Keeps theSmartest Judges Off theBench(http://amazon.com/gp/product/1626522499/ref=nosim/?tag=johnrlotttrip-20)

Academic Papers

Social Science ResearchNetwork(http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/cf_dev/AbsByAuth.cfm?per_id=16317)

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The relationship between homicide rates and the supposed measure of gun ownership providedthe Small Arms Survey shows that even with their obviously biased measure of gun ownership,more guns ownership is associated with fewer homicides, though the relationship is not statisticallysignificant.

(http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/OECD-and-Small-Arms-Survey.png)Because the US is claimed to be such an outlier, it makes the relationship between gun ownershipand homicides less negative than it actually is. (Regressions fit the regression line to “minimize thesum of the squared errors” so you can see how much extra weight one extreme value is given.) But so what can Americans learn from these other “developed” nations?

(http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Screen-Shot-2015-03-24-at-Tuesday-March-24-6.20-PM.png)

Yet, even though the cross-country data implies that more guns equals fewer homicides, this typeof comparison isn’t very convincing. There is a real problem in using cross-sectional data. Supposefor the sake of argument that high-crime countries are the ones that most frequently adopt the moststringent gun control laws. What if gun control actually lowered crime, but not by enough to reducerates to the same low levels prevailing in the majority of countries that did not adopt the laws.Looking across countries, it would then falsely appear that stricter gun control resulted in highercrime. Economists refer to this as an “endogeniety” problem. The adoption of the policy is a

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reaction to other events (that is, “endogenous”), in this case crime. To resolve this, one mustexamine how the high-crime areas that chose to adopt the controls changed over time(http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/2013/12/murder-and-homicide-rates-before-and-after-gun-bans/) —not only relative to their own past levels but also relative to areas that did not institutesuch controls. Below is part of a long discussion in The Bias Against Guns, Chp. 5(http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004SBDA0Y/ref=nosim/?tag=johnrlotttrip-20) (More Guns,Less Crime (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003S9W5HQ/ref=nosim/?tag=johnrlotttrip-20)also has a long discussion in Chp. 2).

Unfortunately, many contemporary discussions rely on misinterpretations of cross-sectionaldata. The New York Times recently conducted a cross-sectional study of murder rates instates with and without the death penalty, and found that “Indeed, 10 of the 12 stateswithout capital punishment have homicide rates below the national average, FederalBureau of Investigation data shows, while half the states with the death penalty havehomicide rates above the national average” (Raymond Bonner and Ford Fessenden,“States With No Death Penalty Share Lower Homicide Rates,” New York Times, September22, 2000, p. A1.). However, they erroneously concluded that the death penalty did not determurder. The problem is that the states without the death penalty (Alaska, Hawaii, Iowa,Maine, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, North Dakota, Rhode Island, West Virginia,Wisconsin, and Vermont) have long enjoyed relatively low murder rates, something thatmight well have more to do with other factors than the death penalty. Instead one mustcompare, over time, how murder rates change in the two groups – those adopting thedeath penalty and those that did not.

It is because of this concern that we also provide another post(http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/2013/12/murder-and-homicide-rates-before-and-after-gun-bans/) that looks at crime rates before and after regulations such as bans.

Finally, as an aside, one has to be very careful in making comparisons across countries becausenumbers are not always comparable. For example, homicides in England and Wales are notcounted the same as in other countries. Their homicide numbers typically “exclude any caseswhich do not result in conviction, or where the person is not prosecuted on grounds of self defenceor otherwise(http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199900/cmselect/cmhaff/95/95ap25.htm)” (Report toParliament). A more detailed discussion of the difference between “offenses initially recorded ashomicide” and “offenses currently recorded as homicide” in England and Wales based on theoutcomes of trials is available starting on page 9 here(http://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons/lib/research/rp99/rp99-056.pdf). While thisadjustment reduces overall homicides by about 15 percent, it has a larger impact on firearmhomicides because those tend to be the ones most likely to involve gang fights that are much moredifficult to solve. The problem isn’t just that it reduces the recorded homicide rate in England andWales, but there would be a sizable reduction in the reported US homicide rate if this approachwere used here. For example, from 2000 to 2008 only about 62 percent of US homicides are evencleared by arrest (http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf). The numbers in the UK appearto be only adjusted based on cases where charges are brought. In that case, it is useful to note thatin the US only about half of those arrested are eventually convicted (http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=dcdetail&iid=262) (also here (http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fjs10.pdf)).

Other Countries bias down their homicide numbers

You also need to be very careful before relying too heavily on homicide rates in other countries. Ifthe Unites States is relatively more accurate in measuring its homicide rate and other countries tryto hide their rates, it will look make it look like the US has a relatively higher rate than it actuallydoes. Take two examples.

Argentina — Some countries might deliberately mischaracterize homicides into another category.

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The breakdown of official statistics also raises the critical question of whether the extent ofyouth homicides is being obscured. (http://www.insightcrime.org/news-briefs/leap-in-argentina-youth-homicides-points-to-rising-organized-crime) With gun suicides andaccidental deaths separately categorized, many of the violent deaths involving a firearmthat La Nacion reports are currently listed as “unknown intent” could be homicides. . . .

UK — Homicides in England and Wales are not counted the same as in other countries. Their homicidenumbers “exclude any cases which do not result in conviction, or where the person is not prosecuted ongrounds of self defence or otherwise(http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199900/cmselect/cmhaff/95/95ap25.htm)” (Report toParliament). The problem isn’t just that it reduces the recorded homicide rate in England and Wales, butwhat would a similar reduction mean for the US.

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-UNcs7yH2Khs/UmNIVPJnpcI/AAAAAAAAHpM/WChdCZ5p33w/s1600/Screen+Shot+2013-10-19+at++Saturday,+October+19,+11.01+PM.png)

If taken literally, and there is significant evidence that in practice the actual adjustment is no where near thislarge, a simple comparison can be made. In 2012, the US murder rate was 4.7 per 100,000, a total of 14,827(http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/tables/1tabledatadecoverviewpdf/table_1_crime_in_the_united_states_by_volume_and_rate_per_100000_inhabitants_1993-2012.xls). Arrests amounted to only 7,133 (http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/tables/32tabledatadecoverviewpdf). Using only people who were arrested(not just convicted) would lower the US murder rate to 2.26 per 100,000. More information(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-v-0YSASMPjg/UmMwUVrbiWI/AAAAAAAAHo4/BTC99ZBj8jA/s1600/Screen+Shot+2013-10-19+at++Saturday,+October+19,+9.13+PM.png) on the adjustment for England and Wales is available here(http://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons/lib/research/rp99/rp99-056.pdf) and it suggests that whilemany homicides are excluded it isn’t as large as it would appear (in 1997, the downward adjustment wouldbe about 12 percent).

Firearm Homicides

Many gun control advocates prefer to look at only firearm homicides(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/nation/gun-homicides-ownership/table/), not totalmurders. The United States has neither the highest firearm homicide rates for all countries or fordeveloped countries. Among OECD countries(http://www.oecd.org/about/membersandpartners/list-oecd-member-countries.htm), Mexico has thehighest firearms homicide rate, with a rate about 3 times higher than the US rate. Brazil’s andRussia’s are much higher, though Russia does not report firearm homicides so it is only a guess forthat country.

By the way, despite Israel and Switzerland having very high gun possession rates, their firearmhomicide rates are extremely low. In the data shown below, Switzerland had a firearms homiciderate of 0.77 per 100,000 people and Israel has a rate of just 0.09 per 100,000.

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Note that there are many countries that clearly have higher gun homicide rates than the UnitedStates that don’t have data available. Indeed, while 192 countries report total homicides, only 116countries report firearm homicides. The average homicide rate for the countries that don’t havefirearm homicides is 11.1 per 100,000. The median homicide rate for those that are missing is 8.7per 100,000. Among the countries with higher homicide rates is Russia with a homicide rate of11.6. The bottom line is that the countries that are missing the data are among the worst homicidecountries.

Again, all the concerns provided over relying on cross-sectional data still apply here. In addition,the firearm homicide data is not available for many of the countries with the highest homicide rates,suggesting that this cross-sectional comparison is even more misleading than the discussion onhomicides. Click on figures to enlarge.

(http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Screen-Shot-2014-06-27-at-Friday-June-27-11.55-PM.png)

(http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Screen-Shot-2014-06-27-at-Friday-June-27-11.56-PM.png)

The UNODC homicide report from 2013 is available here(http://www.unodc.org/documents/gsh/pdfs/2014_GLOBAL_HOMICIDE_BOOK_web.pdf).

Regression estimates for developed countries.

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New York Times Claim: “a handful of mostlySouthern states that allow people with permits to

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Larry Stirling says:December 8, 2014 at 2:15 PM (http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/2014/03/comparing-murder-rates-

across-countries/#comment-2152)

The flaw in all these analyses is assuming that the murder rate and gun ownership haveanything to do with each other.

First, the murder rate is not constant across the US and assigning the horror life in the ten mostdangerous cities in the US with the entire country is simply a false representation. Gunownership is widespread, the mass of murders is not.

Second, have you taken a moment to review the historic and ongoing murder rates throughoutAfrica?

Millions are slaughtered and you are whining about the relatively tiny murder rate in the US?What about Russia, China, North Korea, and any of the Muslim inspired wars?

If it is the loss of life or murders you are concerned about turn your attention to where it is a realproblem.

Or is that too dangerous for you?

Larry StirlingSan Diego

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mirgc says:December 14, 2014 at 6:23 PM (http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/2014/03/comparing-murder-

rates-across-countries/#comment-2283)

You are partially correct. I think the data was more of an attempt to demonstrate that howviolent a country is, is independent of gun-ownership. i.e. guns don’t lead to more killing,but rather the culture is more to blame/credit.

Conversely, if some of those countries would allow their citizens to arm themselves, therewould be fewer roaming bands of machete wielding warlords.

Note: My wife is from one of those countries with high homicide, but near non-existent gunownership. Her father (owner of the only small store in the village) used a machete has hispersonal defense weapon. Which he had to use a couple of times to defend his store andfamily. His wife and daughters? They didn’t have much to equalize their smaller stature andphysical strength.

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Gary says:January 15, 2015 at 1:49 PM (http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/2014/03/comparing-murder-rates-

across-countries/#comment-3142)

So, how many thousands of death a year does it take to become a “real problem” here? Itdoes not seem rational to me to not deal with a problem because someone else has thesame problem on a larger scale.

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e says:January 27, 2015 at 2:23 PM (http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/2014/03/comparing-

murder-rates-across-countries/#comment-3591)

I submit to you that the problem is behavior, not firearms. If you want to stop guncrime stop plea bargaining for violent crimes. And work to re-instill a respect forhuman life. Since the misguided 1962 supreme court decision taking God, prayer andthe Bible out of schools (seems it WAS “Constitutional” up till that point,) and thehorrendous 1973 decision legalizing the slaughter of humans in the womb our respectfor human life has diminished considerably.

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Eli McLaughlin says:December 15, 2014 at 12:35 PM (http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/2014/03/comparing-murder-rates-

across-countries/#comment-2293)

What is not usually shown is that the vast majority of murders occur in the cities with the strictestgun control laws.

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josh says:March 21, 2015 at 5:44 PM (http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/2014/03/comparing-murder-rates-

across-countries/#comment-5584)

I agree and the reason why it’s higher is because it makes it a lot harder for the people whoare responsible gun owners to have guns. The people who do murder are not going to careabout breaking a few extra laws to get the gun.

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Tucason_Jim says:March 24, 2015 at 3:18 PM (http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/2014/03/comparing-murder-

rates-across-countries/#comment-5709)

I want to point out that, because crime was such a problem in big cities, that gun-control was instituted as a solution. The strict gun laws have not produced the highcrime rates… but, they have not solved them either.

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johnrlott says:March 24, 2015 at 3:23 PM (http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/2014/03/comparing-

murder-rates-across-countries/#comment-5710)

Dear Tucson_Jim:If you read the above post, you will note this is a criticism that we raised aboutusing cross-sectional data. Fortunately, there is a way of fixing this concern andthat is looking at the changes in many places before and after they ban orregulated guns. For example,

http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/2013/12/murder-and-homicide-rates-before-and-after-gun-bans/(http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/2013/12/murder-and-homicide-rates-before-and-after-gun-bans/)

You can see the book More Guns, Less Crime for additional discussions onregulations more generally.

Thank you.

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Grant says:January 9, 2015 at 9:21 AM (http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/2014/03/comparing-murder-rates-across-

countries/#comment-2922)

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The comparison of guns per population only accounts for legal guns, not illegal guns. Illegalguns are the ones used in 99% of all gun crimes. Also look at the statistics based on crime in thecity compared to countryside and you will find the cities are the problems. Now look at the laws,strict gun control laws do not prevent criminals from committing gun crimes, because they do notpurchase them legally and criminals do not care about laws.

People are not just going into a gun store, buying a gun and then going to commit a crime. Weknow how criminals are getting their guns, but those statistics aren’t shown because then itshows the real truth.

Now look at which party runs these cities and the crime rates and compare them with othercities.

My research shows that gun crimes are a democrat problem, that’s why they need gun control,actually they need to learn to control themselves.

For example; Black offending rate (34.4 per 100,000), was almost eight times higher than whites(4.5 per 100,000). By offending, I mean gun crime against another person.

I’m not making this stuff up, I have tons of statistics regarding this stuff. More guns does notequal more crime, as a matter of fact.

“But to ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the innocent and law-abiding that theirrights and liberties depend not on their own conduct, but on the conduct of the guilty and thelawless, and that the law will permit them to have only such rights and liberties as the lawlesswill allow. …For society does not control crime, ever, by forcing the law-abiding to accommodate themselvesto the expected behavior of criminals. Society controls crime by forcing the criminals toaccommodate themselves to the expected behavior of the law-abiding.”

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Blake says:April 4, 2015 at 1:29 AM (http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/2014/03/comparing-murder-rates-

across-countries/#comment-6281)

I think if you look at where their data comes from, they consider all civilian (non governmentpurchased) guns, not legal vs . Illegal guns. It isn’t from a door-to-door census of peopleasking who has gun.

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Bob says:February 1, 2015 at 5:07 PM (http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/2014/03/comparing-murder-rates-

across-countries/#comment-3717)

Puerto Rico isn’t part of the US?

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CavScout62 says:February 16, 2015 at 8:09 AM (http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/2014/03/comparing-murder-rates-

across-countries/#comment-4120)

4/26/15, 5:46 PMComparing murder rates and gun ownership across countries - Crime Prevention Research Center

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If you have half a brain then you KNOW that an armed American society is a far more POLITEAmerican Society. In every state where Constitutional Carry is observed, (as it should be in all50 States because it’s THE LAW OF THE LAND) not only are the homicide rates lower but, soare all violent crime rates lower. Why you ask? Because people (I use the term with trepidation)are far less likely to attack you if they believe there is a high probability that you are armed. TheCity/States with the most illegal, strictest firearm bans/control have the worst violent crime ratesas the Bad Guys KNOW the probability of the average citizen being armed is very low becausehe/she doesn’t want to be accosted by the PORK for firearms possession. Common Sense isNOT a common commodity in this land.

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Kat says:March 15, 2015 at 2:35 AM (http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/2014/03/comparing-murder-rates-

across-countries/#comment-5140)

You know, that’s sort of a tired argument. Crime is lower in communities with lax gun lawsbecause those are typically rural backward communities with low populations. I wish peoplewould stop using that as a comparison against crime in urban, highly populatedcommunities. It’s lacking in common sense besides statistical reality.

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johnrlott says:March 15, 2015 at 3:11 AM (http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/2014/03/comparing-murder-

rates-across-countries/#comment-5141)

Dear Kat:It isn’t obvious that you have read the post here. That is the very point being raisedabove for why one shouldn’t rely on cross-sectional data. That said, note that yourpoint doesn’t explain the fact that every single time guns have been banned murderrates go up.

http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/2013/12/murder-and-homicide-rates-before-and-after-gun-bans/ (http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/2013/12/murder-and-homicide-rates-before-and-after-gun-bans/)

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Bill says:February 21, 2015 at 9:45 AM (http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/2014/03/comparing-murder-rates-

across-countries/#comment-4455)

The problem in the US is that people can buy guns so easily without being required to undergotraining and obtain a license. This is completely ridiculous. There is no reason why a person whowants to own a gun should not be forced to have a background check, take a gun safety course,and obtain a license. You would assume that a person who wants to own a gun for protectionwould also want to know how to use it properly and also how to prevent it from being usedimproperly. I don’t think instituting stricter gun control would necessarily lower the intentionalhomicide rate but I do think it would mean fewer accidental shootings (e.g. two years olds pullinga gun out of their mom’s purse and shooting them at Walmart.

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Doug says:March 8, 2015 at 11:10 PM (http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/2014/03/comparing-murder-rates-

across-countries/#comment-4880)

Well Bob that is Michigan Law I took A gun Saftey Course and back ground Check and gotmy permit to carry 6 week in the mail after all was done

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Bob says:February 25, 2015 at 12:22 PM (http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/2014/03/comparing-murder-rates-

across-countries/#comment-4576)

The big question Bill is were those purchases done legitimately or not? I watched a showrecently that took plain people into 10 different gun shops to buy a gun and 9 out of those 10required a cool down period and a background check. The problem I see is gun store #10!! I dohowever agree with mandatory training in the use of firearms and firearms safety. I also think thesale of firearms needs to be more tightly regulated, not to say yes or no but to make sure allchecks have been done correctly.

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Phil says:March 10, 2015 at 6:26 AM (http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/2014/03/comparing-murder-rates-across-

countries/#comment-4904)

Forget about the rubbery figures around what constitutes homicide in diferrent countries. Look atthe overall death rate caused by guns. US is the clear winner on these measures. And this alsotalks about “small arms” what does that include?

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Tucason_Jim says:March 24, 2015 at 3:24 PM (http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/2014/03/comparing-murder-rates-

across-countries/#comment-5711)

Ummmm, not it isn’t. The US has a HUGE population compared to, for example, GreatBritain. When you talk TOTAL numbers, the US has a huge number of gun relateddeaths… however, as a percentage of the population, i.e. “RATE”, the US is in the middleof the pack, with 4.7 deaths per hundred-thousand people.

So, if you want to blame “gun ownership” for crime, then, you do not get a chance toselectively choose your data. The trend must be consistent, but, it is not.

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mike dvey says:April 22, 2015 at 4:41 PM (http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/2014/03/comparing-murder-rates-across-

countries/#comment-7061)

Article that leaves out the most important numbers in the fact. Politifact says it best, the claimthat Americans are 20 times more likely than other civilized countries is true. The problem withyour graph is that you leave out most of the countries we compare best with – the UK, Japan,Canada etc. Way to cherry pick your data.

4/26/15, 5:46 PMComparing murder rates and gun ownership across countries - Crime Prevention Research Center

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johnrlott says:April 23, 2015 at 6:01 AM (http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/2014/03/comparing-murder-rates-

across-countries/#comment-7077)

Dear Mike: All those countries are indeed included in both the UNODC and OECD data.You can obviously see this in the OECD data. If you look at the UNODC data, you will seeall the countries there also, though the type is small in order to fit in all the countries. Forthe graphs showing the regression lines, there are simply too many dots close to eachother to label all of them. But all the countries in the Small Arms Survey are included.

As to “civilized” countries, do you have an official list of civilized countries? Is Chile a“civilized country? Is Brazil a civilized country? Estonia? Tell me how you define “civilized’countries. Usually, people make the claim regarding “developed/industrialized” countries,and one can clearly see that claim is false with regard to developed/industrializedcountries.

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