Broussard Depo

8/14/2019 Broussard Depo

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1 24TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT COURT

2 FOR THE PARISH OF JEFFERSON

3 STATE OF LOUISIANA

4

5 NO. 624-459 DIVISION "I"

6

7 CHICAGO PROPERTY INTERESTS, L.L.C.AND ZOE ALDIGE, INDIVIDUALLY AND ON BEHALF OF

8 THOSE SIMILARLY SITUATED

9 VERSUS

10 AARON BROUSSARD PERSONALLY AND IN HIS CAPACITYAS PRESIDENT OF JEFFERSON PARISH AND JEFFERSON

11 PARISH

12 CONSOLIDATED WITH

13 CASE NO. 624-778(LEVY), 625-145(LOGA),

14 626-415(KACZMAREK), 625-988(SCHMIDT),

15 635-539(BROWN), AND 635-883(MENARD)

16

17

18 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF AARON BROUSSARD,

19 given in the above-entitled cause, pursuant to

20 the following stipulation, before Sandra P.

21 DiFebbo, Certified Shorthand Reporter in and

22 for the State of Louisiana, at the Law Offices

23 of Burglass & Tankersley, 5213 Airline Drive,

24 Metairie, Louisiana, on the 28th of November,

25 2007, at 9:11 am.


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1 APPEARANCES:

2 PLAINTIFFS' MANAGEMENT COMMITTEE:

3 JACOBS & SARRATBY: DARLEEN M. JACOBS,

4 ATTORNEY AT LAW823 St. Louis Street

5 New Orleans, Louisiana 70112

6

RICHARD MARTIN,7 ATTORNEY AT LAW

20 Versailles Boulevard

8 New Orleans, Louisiana 70125

9

LAW OFFICE OF ROBERT J. CALUDA10 BY: THOMAS G. ROBBINS,

ATTORNEY AT LAW

11 310 Rue St. AnnMetairie, Louisiana 70005

12

13 PLAINTIFFS' LIASON COUNSEL and COUNSEL FORCHICAGO PROPERTY INTERESTS and ZOE ALDIGE:

14

15 MURPHY, ROGERS, SLOSS & GAMBEL

BY: E. CARROLL ROGERS,16 ATTORNEY AT LAW

701 Poydras Street

17 400 One Shell SquareNew Orleans, Louisiana 70139

18

19 DEFENDANTS, AARON BROUSSARD AND THE PARISH OF

JEFFERSON:20

21 BURGLASS & TANKERSLEYBY: DENNIS PHAYER,

22 ATTORNEY AT LAW -and-

BRUCE BURGLASS,23 ATTORNEY AT LAW5213 Airline Drive

24 Metairie, Louisiana 70001-5602

25


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1 APPEARANCES CONT'D:

2

DEFENDANT, NATIONAL UNION FIRE INSURANCE3 COMPANY, PITTSBURGH, PENNSYLVANIA:

4 LEAKE & ANDERSSONBY: KAREN DICKE,

5 ATTORNEY AT LAW

1100 Poydras Street6 1700 Energy Centre

New Orleans, Louisiana 70163-17017

8 DEFENDANT, AMERICAN ALTERNATIVE INSURANCECORPORATION:

9

SIMON, PERAGINE, SMITH & REDFEARN10 BY: DAVID F. BIENVENU,

ATTORNEY AT LAW -and-

11 JOSH HUDSON, ATTORNEY AT LAW1100 Poydras Street

12 30th Floor, Energy CentreNew Orleans, Louisiana 70163-3000

13

14

15 Videograppher: Greg Cassen, Depo-Vue

16

17

18 Reported By:

19

20 Sandra P. DiFebboCertified Shorthand Reporter

21 State of Louisiana

22

23

24

25


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1 And, of course, you know that everything that

2 you are answering right now is being taken down

3 by the court reporter and also by the

4 videographer?

5 A. Yes, ma'am.

6 Q. Do you have any questions before we

7 begin the deposition?

8 A. No, ma'am.

9 Q. Also, if you need to take a break at any

10 time, just stop the deposition, and we'll try

11 to accommodate you, either to answer your phone

12 in connection with parish business or personal

13 matters.

14 A. I've taken my phone off my person, so I

15 won't get interrupted that way. If I have to

16 go to the bathroom or take a break to nibble on

17 a snack or something, I'll ask for a break.

18 Q. Would you please state your full name

19 and address for the record?

20 A. Aaron F. Broussard, 100 West Esplanade,

21 Kenner, Louisiana.

22 Q. What is your date of birth?

23 A. January 6, 1949.

24 Q. How old does that make you currently?

25 A. 58.


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1 Q. Are you taking any medications today

2 which might impair your ability to give answers

3 in this deposition?

4 A. No, ma'am.

5 Q. Are you on any medications for anything

6 today?

7 A. I take an Allopurinol for gout, as a

8 gout prevention, and I take a Vytorin as a

9 cholesterol reducer.

10 Q. Do either of those medications impair

11 your ability to think?

12 A. No, ma'am.

13 Q. Were you on any medications two days

14 before or within five days after and during

15 Hurricane Katrina?

16 A. Same medications.

17 Q. Are you in any way impaired so you

18 cannot give this deposition today, whether it

19 be medically or for any other reason?

20 A. No, ma'am.

21 Q. Is there anything that might have

22 impaired your memory or your ability to give

23 testimony?

24 A. No, ma'am.

25 Q. Have you had any psychological or


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1 psychiatric breakdowns since Hurricane Katrina?

2 A. No, ma'am.

3 Q. Is your recollection of the Katrina

4 events impaired in any way?

5 A. No, ma'am. Just the time that has

6 passed.

7 Q. But you have a pretty good recollection

8 of the events of Hurricane Katrina; is that

9 fair to state?

10 A. I will give you my best recollection.

11 Q. Thank you, sir. Are you married?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What is the name of your spouse?

14 A. Karen Broussard.

15 Q. Where does she work? Is she employed?

16 A. Yes. She is employed by the parish.

17 Q. What particular area does she work in?

18 A. She works in the parish attorney's

19 office.

20 Q. Is she an attorney?

21 A. No. Paralegal.

22 Q. Is this your second marriage?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. How many times have you been married,

25 twice?


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1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What is the name of your first wife?

3 A. Patricia Barrilleaux.

4 Q. Do you have any children?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And what are their names and ages?

7 A. Troy Broussard, approximately 36 years

8 old now, and Amy Broussard. Well, Amy

9 Broussard Corale. She is married. She is 30

10 years old.

11 Q. Does your first wife work, or is she

12 unemployed at this time?

13 A. I do not know.

14 Q. Do you know if she is in the

15 Metropolitan Jefferson Parish Area?

16 A. Yes. She lives in Jefferson Parish.

17 Q. Where are you currently domiciled in

18 Jefferson Parish?

19 A. 100 West Esplanade, Kenner, Louisiana.

20 Q. Now, the next question that I have to

21 ask you, as you know as an attorney, is pretty

22 perfunctory, but we have to ask you the

23 question. Have you ever been arrested?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Would you please tell us about your


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1 educational background.

2 A. I am a product of public education in

3 Jefferson Parish. I attended Deckbar

4 Elementary, Kenner Junior High. I'm a graduate

5 of East Jefferson High School, 1966. I

6 attended several universities. LSU in Baton

7 Rouge, USL, at the time it was named, in

8 Lafayette, and got my bachelor degree in

9 history, minor in sociology from then LSUNO in

10 New Orleans. Then went on to Loyola Law School

11 and got my juris doctorate degree in law from

12 Loyola Law School, graduated in 1973.

13 Q. Do you hold any advanced degree in the

14 practice of law?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Do you hold any other degrees?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Tell us about your employment history

19 since high school.

20 A. I was a self-employed -- oh, since high

21 school?

22 Q. Uh-huh.

23 A. In high school, I worked in a number of

24 different capacities. Since high school.

25 Q. Uh-huh.


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1 A. Well, I was the lead singer in a rock

2 and roll band during my college years.

3 Q. What was the name of that band?

4 A. That was The Other Guys, was the name of

5 that band, and that was the most productive way

6 that I was able to earn money to go through

7 college, but I also worked in the cabinet

8 manufacturer in the summertime. I did forklift

9 work, air freight transport work with the

10 forklift operation involved. Mostly those were

11 the summer jobs.

12 Q. When you went to law school, did you

13 work through law school?

14 A. Continued as an air freight forwarder.

15 Worked for an air freight forwarder company,

16 again, mainly forklift operating and sorting

17 and transferring packages for an air freight

18 forwarder.

19 Q. Did you go to night law school or day

20 law school?

21 A. I went to day law school. Also, during

22 the summer, I worked in a printing company as

23 well during the summer.

24 Q. When you graduated from law school, I

25 take it that you went into the immediate


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1 practice of law; is that correct?

2 A. Yes. I was a self-employed attorney,

3 sole practitioner.

4 Q. For how long?

5 A. I guess until about 1977, '78.

6 Q. Then did you join a firm?

7 A. Actually created a partnership.

8 Q. Who was that with?

9 A. Glenn Ansardi.

10 Q. How long did you and Mr. Ansardi

11 practice?

12 A. Until about 1982, when I was elected

13 mayor. At that point, I left that partnership

14 and became mayor and did really a very minimal

15 practice of law during the early years of my

16 mayorship.

17 Q. Were you associated with any law firm

18 after you and Mr. Ansardi broke up the

19 partnership?

20 A. I worked with Golden & Fonte for a

21 while, of counsel, and then became of counsel

22 with Martini, LeBlanc Law Firm. Now it's

23 called -- the name has changed, D'Aquila, Volk,

24 et cetera, law firm.

25 Q. Are you currently associated with any


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1 law firms?

2 A. That's the one I'm presently associated

3 with.

4 Q. What is the correct?

5 A. D'Aquila, Volk, Mullins & Contreras.

6 Q. It's four lawyers, and then you make the

7 fifth lawyer?

8 A. I'm of counsel. I'm not a partner of

9 the firm.

10 Q. Of counsel, what are your duties with

11 that firm?

12 A. Basically, I don't have specific duties

13 with that firm. I'm allowed space in that

14 building, and I refer cases to that firm and am

15 allowed access to the receptionist and office

16 equipment. It's an of counsel relationship.

17 Q. Do you have a fee sharing arrangement

18 with them?

19 A. No, I don't. There is a retainer that I

20 have from them that I get each month that,

21 again, allows me the opportunity to be in that

22 place and also to refer work to them.

23 Q. When you refer them a case, do you get a

24 percentage of the proceeds from that case?

25 A. It can vary. I don't have a fixed


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1 contractual relationship with them in that way,

2 so there could easily be cases that I refer

3 which I get no referral fee. It just depends

4 on the case and the outcome of the case, but

5 nothing is written in the contractual form.

6 Q. So it's correct that you don't have any

7 type of written contract with them regarding

8 fee arrangements?

9 A. No. That's correct.

10 Q. Have you ever been associated with

11 Wendell Gauthier?

12 A. In my early practice, there was a

13 building that was built on Florida Avenue and

14 which was shared by Wendell Gauthier, myself,

15 my dad, some other independent attorneys as

16 well, in which we had a co-op arrangement of

17 sharing our receptionist, sharing resources of

18 the same office space. That was in Kenner.

19 Then, for about six months, I had

20 an affiliation with that firm in which I worked

21 with the firm for about six months to test out

22 that format for my style of practice of law.

23 After about six months is when I met Glenn

24 Ansardi, and we formed a partnership after

25 that. So that affiliation, that formal


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1 affiliation with the firm, lasted approximately

2 six months to less than a year.

3 Q. Have you ever been affiliated in any way

4 with Chehardy law firm?

5 A. Not of counsel, no.

6 Q. In any other capacity have you been

7 affiliated with them?

8 A. Other than a possible referral or two

9 over the years of my practice, that's possible.

10 None that I recall at the moment.

11 Q. Now, you said that you currently receive

12 a monthly retainer from the current law firm

13 that you are with; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. How much is that retainer, and what is

16 it based on?

17 A. It's $1,500 a month. It's been the same

18 retainer amount since I began there, and it

19 basically just anchors me at that site. And I

20 believe the law firm sees benefit in me being

21 affiliated with the firm. And, as I said

22 earlier, there is referrals that are generated

23 as a result of my presence there.

24 Q. Do you have to pay any of the lights or

25 overhead in connection with that?


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1 A. No.

2 Q. So, in other words, the $1,500 is net to

3 you?

4 A. Net to me.

5 Q. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes, that's correct.

7 Q. Have you ever served in the military

8 service?

9 A. No, ma'am.

10 Q. I know that you are currently parish

11 president, and you're in your second term; is

12 that correct?

13 A. I'm in my first term as we speak. My

14 second term will begin in January of next year.

15 Q. What other political offices have you

16 held in the Parish of Jefferson?

17 A. I've been a member of the Jefferson

18 Parish School Board.

19 Q. Tell us what year that was.

20 A. That would have begun in 1974, re-

21 elected, I believe, in 1976. I was elected to

22 the district seat on the Jefferson Parish

23 Council, which at that time had four district

24 positions, elected to that to fill the

25 unexpired term of George Ackel in 1977. I was


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1 reelected to that position, on the Jefferson

2 Parish Council, in 1979. I was elected mayor

3 in 1982. I was re-elected as mayor three

4 additional times subsequent to that, and then

5 was elected as chairman of the Jefferson Parish

6 Council in 1995 and then re-elected to that

7 position and then elected in 2003 but

8 inaugurated in 2004 to the term of Jefferson

9 Parish president, which I'm serving now.

10 Q. Is it correct that that term expires at

11 the end of the year?

12 A. It will expire inauguration, which is

13 preliminarily set for the second week in

14 January.

15 Q. What are your parishwide responsi-

16 bilities in connection with the presidency?

17 A. Well, they are spelled out in the

18 charter. They're basically managerial. The

19 legislative body, the council, makes the laws,

20 creates the laws, and the parish president and

21 his employees and directors basically manage

22 the parish on a day-to-day basis.

23 Q. Is there a document or a statute or an

24 ordinance which sets forth or describes the

25 office's parishwide authority?


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1 A. Yes. That would be in the charter.

2 Q. Where is it located in the charter?

3 A. It would be located under the title of

4 parish president and its duties.

5 Q. Are you empowered to act on a parishwide

6 basis in the face of impending natural

7 disasters, such as a hurricane?

8 A. Yes, and that's spelled out in two

9 different set of laws. That would be the

10 parish laws and the state laws of Louisiana

11 regarding emergency situations.

12 Q. If I were a lay person looking to find

13 out exactly how you could act in the face of an

14 impending natural disaster, such as a

15 hurricane, where would I find the documents

16 which set forth your ability to act and your

17 responsibilities to act? In other words, is

18 there a particular statute, document,

19 ordinance, charter, et cetera, which I would

20 refer myself to?

21 A. Generically, I would say the charter. I

22 would say any specific ordinances that were

23 passed regarding these emergency situations and

24 the state law as it applies to emergency

25 situations. Those would be the three generic


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1 sources that I would guide you to. And

2 specifically, in the office of emergency

3 management, they would have policies and plans

4 in effect that would be a part of their

5 department records.

6 Q. Can you give us a title of the statute

7 or the number of the ordinance that gives you

8 your authority?

9 A. I do not recall that at the present

10 time.

11 Q. If I would need to get that information,

12 whom would I be referred to?

13 A. Why don't you simply refer that possibly

14 to my attorney, and then certainly my office

15 will provide any information you need in

16 regards to that. Everything we have at our

17 disposal will be available to you.

18 Q. You say your attorney. That would be

19 Mr. Phayer?

20 A. Yes. For the purpose of that request.

21 MS. JACOBS:

22 I would like to make a request for

23 that right now, Dennis.

24 MR. PHAYER:

25 What is it specifically you are


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1 looking for?

2 MS. JACOBS:

3 We want to know what documents,

4 statutes, ordinances, or charters, and the

5 specific instances that give him the right to

6 act on a parishwide basis in the face of

7 impending natural disasters.

8 THE WITNESS:

9 I would include state laws in that

10 as well.

11 MS. JACOBS:

12 Right, exactly.

13 MR. PHAYER:

14 Sure. We can do that.

15 BY MS. JACOBS:

16 Q. As parish president, are you vested with

17 parishwide emergency powers?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What documents, statute, or ordinance

20 gives you those powers?

21 A. All of the above that we've just

22 mentioned.

23 Q. As parish president, are you empowered

24 to order parishwide hurricane evacuations for

25 civilians and parish employees?


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1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What particular statute, ordinance, or

3 charter would give you that particular power?

4 A. All of the above that we mentioned

5 earlier.

6 MS. JACOBS:

7 Dennis, once again, I'm going to

8 make the request for specifics.

9 MR. PHAYER:

10 Certainly.

11 BY MS. JACOBS:

12 Q. In the case of Hurricane Katrina, were

13 you solely responsible for the decisions for

14 the evacuation of the pump operators?

15 A. No, ma'am.

16 Q. Did anyone else aid you in that

17 decision?

18 A. I made no decision in that regard.

19 There was a plan in effect. The plan is based

20 on benchmarks and guidelines of the emergency

21 at hand. That plan was implemented as

22 designed.

23 Q. So are you telling us today that it was

24 not you who made the decision to evacuate the

25 pump operators following Hurricane Katrina?


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1 A. Yes, ma'am.

2 Q. Was it any particular person, or did you

3 just follow a plan?

4 A. The plan was implemented as designed.

5 Q. What plan are you referring to?

6 A. It's named the Doomsday Plan.

7 Q. Do you have a copy of the Doomsday Plan

8 with you at this time?

9 A. No, ma'am, I don't.

10 Q. Where is that located in the Jefferson

11 Parish records or ordinances or minutes of

12 meetings?

13 A. It would be located in the Department of

14 Emergency Management.

15 MS. JACOBS:

16 Dennis, I'd like to call for

17 production of that document.

18 MR. PHAYER:

19 I believe we've already produced a

20 copy of that.

21 MS. ROGERS:

22 Yes.

23 BY MS. JACOBS:

24 Q. Knowing that Hurricane Katrina was

25 approaching, did you all have a meeting of the


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1 city council to discuss what you would do in

2 case of an emergency?

3 A. No.

4 Q. No one had a meeting?

5 A. Oh, you said a meeting of the council.

6 There was no meeting of the council.

7 Typically, what would happen in the face of an

8 upcoming hurricane would be a meeting at the

9 emergency management office to discuss the

10 status of a storm that's approaching.

11 Q. Who was present at the emergency

12 management meeting when the evacuation of the

13 pump operators was discussed?

14 A. I don't know that there was such a

15 meeting to discuss that. I'm not aware of a

16 meeting to discuss that. I was not present at

17 any meeting to discuss that, if in fact it

18 occurred.

19 Q. When the pump operators were evacuated,

20 did anyone have to sign an order?

21 A. No, ma'am, not to my knowledge.

22 Q. Who told them that they could evacuate?

23 A. When a plan is implemented through the

24 emergency management department, the department

25 issues to the parish directors and


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1 administrators what phase of the plan is now in

2 effect, and they give those instructions based

3 on the timing of an approaching storm, how far

4 out, what's the anticipated wind speeds that

5 will be coming into our area. They give

6 direction to the relevant departments of what

7 to do next.

8 Q. Who was in charge of emergency

9 management at the time of Hurricane Katrina?

10 A. Walter Maestri.

11 Q. Is it correct that Mr. Maestri -- his

12 training is in economics; is that correct?

13 A. I don't remember exactly what his

14 degrees are in. He was the department head

15 when I took office, so I'm not as familiar of

16 his personal background.

17 Q. It is correct that Mr. Maestri has no

18 formal training in engineering?

19 A. I don't know the answer to that

20 question.

21 Q. Or in predicting the weather?


23 question.

24 Q. Would he be the only one that would know

25 the answer to that question?


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2 question.

3 Q. How was he selected to head emergency

4 management?

5 A. He was chosen by a previous

6 administration. I'm not familiar with the

7 process, the advertisement or the selection of

8 Mr. Maestri.

9 Q. Do you know how long he's had that post?

10 A. No, ma'am. I can tell you that he had

11 it from the time that I became parish president

12 until the time that he resigned from the post.

13 Q. When was that?

14 A. I don't remember the exact date. It was

15 after Katrina, but I don't remember the exact

16 date.

17 Q. Is it correct --

18 A. Personnel records could reflect. If you

19 request that through my attorney, we can

20 certainly provide it.

21 Q. It was shortly after Hurricane Katrina

22 that he resigned; isn't that correct?

23 A. I don't recall the word "shortly" being

24 appropriate. I think some time had passed

25 before that. It might have been as much as a


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1 year. Again, I don't remember the exact date

2 or month.

3 Q. Is it correct as you sit here today that

4 you're telling us that it was Walter Maestri

5 who told the pump operators that they could

6 leave their posts?

7 A. I don't know if it was Walter Maestri

8 personally that told them. Again, as I said

9 earlier, the emergency management department

10 gives directions to various department heads

11 and other administrators about what phase of

12 the plan is now in effect, so exactly the chain

13 of dialogue, I am not familiar with. I was not

14 there when that chain of dialogue occurred.

15 Q. Knowing that there was an impending

16 hurricane coming, you did not make any attempts

17 to find out what Mr. Maestri would tell pump

18 operators with regard to their evacuation?

19 A. No, ma'am.

20 Q. Is there any particular reason why you

21 did not?

22 A. No, ma'am.

23 Q. Did anyone else in your administration

24 contact Walter Maestri to find out what the

25 evacuation plans would be, if any, for the pump


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1 operators and inform you of what those plans

2 were?

3 A. What point of time are you talking about

4 now?

5 Q. At any time before the arrival of

6 Hurricane Katrina, which would be probably

7 eminently within four days before the striking

8 of the hurricane.

9 A. Why don't you repeat that question so I

10 have a thorough understanding of it?

11 Q. Did anyone in your administration, or

12 anyone working for you or under your direction,

13 make any attempts to contact Mr. Maestri and

14 find out if he had any plans to evacuate the

15 pump operators and then inform you of what

16 those plans would be?

17 A. Prior to the time that these men were

18 evacuated from the position?

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. No, ma'am, no, ma'am.

21 Q. Did you make any attempts or inquiries

22 to determine what the plans would be?

23 A. No, ma'am.

24 Q. Are you telling us today that you had no

25 knowledge that the pump operators were going to


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1 be evacuated until after the fact?

2 A. Yes, ma'am.

3 Q. Before the arrival of Hurricane Katrina,

4 and knowing that there was a dangerous

5 situation in the Gulf with regard to that

6 hurricane, did you bother to find out what

7 qualifications Walter Maestri had for making

8 those decisions, about whether or not pump

9 operators could be evacuated?

10 A. No, ma'am.

11 Q. Did anyone else under your control or

12 under your direction or in your administration

13 make any attempts to find out?

14 A. Not to my knowledge; however, again, Mr.

15 Maestri was in that position when I took

16 office, therefore, I am not aware of any

17 conversations that anyone had with Mr. Maestri

18 since I became parish president.

19 Q. Going back to the news media

20 teleprompts, et cetera, there was a command

21 post that was set up somewhere in Jefferson

22 Parish prior to the arrival of Hurricane

23 Katrina; is that correct?

24 A. There is an emergency management

25 facility located on Ames Boulevard.


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1 Q. Ames Boulevard is located on the west

2 bank?

3 A. Yes, ma'am.

4 Q. Were you part of that -- were you in

5 that facility?

6 A. I was in and out of that facility,

7 depending on the timing of your question.

8 Certainly, I was in and out of that facility at

9 various times.

10 Q. Who else would have been at that

11 facility, at the command post facility?

12 A. It would be best probably to provide you

13 an actual list rather than me making a guess at

14 exactly who was in that facility. There were

15 many different agencies represented in that

16 facility, a number of different jurisdictions

17 represented from state police to National Guard

18 to local law enforcement. They had a number of

19 different presences in it, and I'd prefer, so I

20 could be exact, as to forward you a list at

21 your request of what we can recall or my

22 administration can recall of who might have

23 been in that building.

24 Q. Was there a sign-in sheet for people as

25 they came and went into that facility?


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1 A. Not that I recall, no, ma'am.

2 Q. I'd probably ask --

3 A. There was a -- well, I'll tell you.

4 There was a guard at the base. It is a --

5 there is a check-in point. I don't recall if

6 there was a sign-in sheet, but there certainly

7 was a point of entry in which the credentials

8 of a person being in that building would have

9 been asked for.

10 MS. JACOBS:

11 Mr. Phayer, I ask for production of

12 the list of people who were at the command

13 post.

14 MR. PHAYER:

15 This is parish personnel you're

16 interested in?

17 MS. JACOBS:

18 Anybody that was at the command post

19 on Ames Boulevard.

20 MR. PHAYER:

21 At what point?

22 MS. JACOBS:

23 At any time prior to or during,

24 following Hurricane Katrina.

25 MR. PHAYER:


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1 I'll be happy to search for what you

2 are looking for. That's a very broad time

3 period you are talking about.

4 MR. BIENVENU:

5 Thursday to Tuesday?

6 MS. JACOBS:

7 That's fine.

8 MR. PHAYER:

9 36 hours before the storm?

10 MR. BIENVENU:

11 From Thursday.

12 MS. JACOBS:

13 And after the storm.

14 MS. ROGERS:

15 Through Tuesday.

16 MR. PHAYER:

17 Sure.

18 BY MS. JACOBS:

19 Q. When did the command post actually set

20 up on Ames Boulevard? When did it become

21 operative?

22 A. It houses the Office of Emergency

23 Management, so it is continually operating as a

24 department office for emergency preparedness.

25 So, in that regard, it's always staffed. So


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1 maybe rephrase the question, and knowing that,

2 what I've just said, is there another level of

3 --

4 Q. As parish president, when did you first

5 go to the command post?

6 A. In regards to?

7 Q. Hurricane Katrina.

8 A. I recall that it was Friday afternoon,

9 the Friday before Katrina hit, that I got a

10 call from Tim Whitmer telling me that the

11 direction of the storm was taking a more

12 westerly direction and that we needed to meet

13 that Friday afternoon to hear from state

14 officials and hear from -- I think it was the

15 weather service. I'm pretty sure it was one of

16 -- it was either one of the regular calls that

17 began to happen when you're tracking a

18 hurricane in which the state agencies get on

19 the line with the weather service and get on

20 the line with the officials from the other

21 parishes. It was either one of those, or it

22 was a meeting that we held in preparation for

23 one of those calls that was forthcoming.

24 So I don't recall exactly which it

25 was, but that was the first time that I was


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1 called to EOC to discuss Katrina and its

2 possible impacts for the area.

3 Q. Was Walter Maestri with you on Friday?

4 A. Although I don't have a specific

5 recollection, I would be surprised if he would

6 not have been there for that meeting.

7 Q. Was he there at the command center for

8 most of the time directly before Hurricane

9 Katrina and following Hurricane Katrina?

10 A. I don't know the answer to that as far

11 as the actual time that he was in that building

12 or out of that building. I would refer you to

13 Mr. Maestri or to whatever records there are

14 available of indicating when that person or any

15 other personnel might have been in or out of

16 that building. It was, as you can imagine, a

17 lot of people coming together at about that

18 time.

19 Q. Do you recall seeing Mr. Maestri there?

20 A. Oh, yes.

21 Q. On a lot of occasions; is that correct?

22 A. I saw him often there, yes, ma'am.

23 Q. Did you and Mr. Maestri talk?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did he discuss with you that he was


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1 going to make a decision to remove the pump

2 operators from their places in Jefferson Parish

3 and close down the pumps?

4 A. No, ma'am.

5 Q. He never discussed that?

6 A. No, ma'am.

7 Q. Did you have any knowledge that he was

8 going to make that decision?

9 A. No, ma'am.

10 Q. Do you know if he made that decision

11 independently, on his own, or did he consult

12 with other people?

13 A. My understanding, after the fact, is

14 that that was part of the plan that was devised

15 by emergency management.

16 Q. Is it stated in the Doomsday Plan that

17 if a hurricane is approaching, pump operators

18 would be removed from their positions?

19 A. I would let the plan speak for itself.

20 Q. Well, you have read the plan, haven't

21 you, Mr. Broussard?

22 A. I have reviewed the plan, yes.

23 Q. After having reviewed that plan, can you

24 show me anywhere in that plan where it says

25 that when a hurricane is approaching, pump


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1 operators will be removed from the pumps?

2 A. Ma'am, if you'll show me the plan right

3 now, I'll read it in front of you.

4 MS. JACOBS:

5 You want to give him a copy of it

6 Dennis? You have a copy.

7 MR. PHAYER:

8 I don't have a copy. I'm sure we

9 have a copy in the office.

10 MS. JACOBS:

11 Can we temporarily go off the record

12 and get a copy of it? Because I do have some

13 questions to ask him about that, and in

14 fairness to Mr. Broussard, I want him to be

15 able to adequately answer my questions.

16 THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

17 Off the record at 9:43.

18 (BRIEF RECESS)

19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

20 Back on the record at 9:53.

21 MS. JACOBS:

22 Miss Reporter, would you please

23 read back the previous question that we had to

24 the deponent?

25 (COURT REPORTER READ BACK)


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1 THE WITNESS:

2 After reviewing a copy of the

3 Catastrophic Weather Event Doomsday Plan that's

4 in front of me, which I have just reviewed for

5 the purposes of making this answer, there are

6 two areas in this plan that would constitute an

7 answer to your question.

8 The first would be under the title

9 of Personnel, in which it states that ALL, and

10 that is in bold and underlined, ALL activated

11 Jefferson Parish Emergency Personnel under the

12 direct authority of the parish president, and

13 it defines that as Jefferson Parish Employees,

14 will immediately evacuate to the Jefferson

15 Parish Employee Shelter at Mount Hermon High

16 School in Mount Hermon, Louisiana. Then it

17 states a number of exceptions.

18 The second reference would be under

19 Logistics, which is underlined. On the second

20 page, the last sentence of Logistics, it says,

21 "Special," and it says, in quotes, "Wet Fleet"

22 vehicles will be used to ferry teams working at

23 isolated pump stations to shelters. It says

24 see Appendix A.

25 Q. In furtherance of the questions, the


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1 Catastrophic Weather Event, also referred to as

2 the Doomsday Plan, can you tell us when that

3 was enacted?

4 MR. PHAYER:

5 Do you mean in connection with when

6 it was implemented during Katrina or when --

7 MS. JACOBS:

8 No. When it was enacted, when the

9 plan was enacted.

10 MR. PHAYER:

11 Drawn up?

12 MS. JACOBS:

13 Yes.

14 THE WITNESS:

15 It was previous to my

16 administration. What I remember being told was

17 that it was approximately 1998. I could be a

18 year off on that, but I recall being told 1998.

19 BY MS. JACOBS:

20 Q. When you took office, did you review the

21 plan?

22 A. No, ma'am.

23 Q. Did you make any changes to the plan?

24 A. I did not, no, ma'am.

25 Q. What is meant by a catastrophic weather


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1 event? What does the term "catastrophic" mean?

2 A. This plan, under the title of Prologue,

3 says, "In the event that Jefferson Parish faces

4 a catastrophic weather event, defined as a

5 confirmed forecast from the National Weather

6 Service/National Hurricane Center of a Category

7 IV or greater hurricane, making landfall within

8 the Metropolitan Region, the following plan

9 will be implemented immediately."

10 Q. But it's correct that Hurricane Katrina

11 never was a Category 4 hurricane when it came

12 into land; is that correct?

13 A. Well, this says a confirmed forecast,

14 which means that this is, as is defined in a

15 prologue, this is what is being confirmed by

16 the National Weather Service in advance of a

17 hurricane coming into the area.

18 Q. Isn't it a fact that when they were

19 predicting landfall right before the hurricane

20 came in, they never said it would be a -- it

21 would strike with Category 4 winds in the

22 Jefferson Parish area?

23 A. I do not recall the exact predictions

24 that were made by the weather service at

25 different times, but I'll just refer to the


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1 public record that does itemize what the

2 National Weather Service issued as its

3 forecast, because this relates to forecast. It

4 doesn't say here what times. It just says

5 forecast.

6 Q. Do you have anything in writing that you

7 can refer us to today that would say that you

8 received information that Hurricane Katrina

9 would make landfall with Category 4 winds?

10 A. I would again refer you to the public

11 record of the documents that we have in

12 Jefferson Parish's possession that would

13 confirm what the predictions and the forecasts

14 were of the National Weather Service.

15 As I mentioned to you earlier,

16 there were phone conferences that were

17 conducted at regular times. I don't remember

18 when the first one began, but once they begin,

19 they're usually at regular times each day that

20 the weather service makes their forecast and

21 gives up-to-date forecast information as part

22 of that phone conference, and that phone

23 conference was shared by a multitude of

24 different agencies, as I've described earlier.

25 Q. Can you give us the name of any person


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1 associated with the weather bureau or

2 forecasting from the National Weather Service

3 who told you that when Hurricane Katrina came

4 on shore, it would strike the Metropolitan

5 Jefferson Parish Area with Category 4 hurricane

6 winds? Can you give us a name?

7 MR. PHAYER:

8 Who told Mr. Broussard personally or

9 told the parish?

10 MS. JACOBS:

11 Right. Well, let's take it both

12 ways. Told Mr. Broussard personally and then

13 told the parish in which he may have heard it.

14 THE WITNESS:

15 The only communication that I would

16 have been -- that I was privy to with the

17 National Weather Service, that I recall, were

18 these conference calls in which the weather

19 service would make their forecasts known to

20 everyone on the conference call. As far as any

21 communications that may have been held between

22 the weather service or personnel of the weather

23 service directly to my emergency management

24 office, I don't have any recollection of who

25 that person might be.


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1 BY MS. JACOBS:

2 Q. So you cannot give us a name as you sit

3 here today; is that correct?

4 A. I cannot, as we sit here today, but I'm

5 sure public records will reveal that name or

6 those names that were representing the National

7 Weather Service at that time.

8 Q. It is correct, as you sit here today,

9 that Hurricane Katrina did not come on shore

10 with Category 4 winds; is that correct?

11 A. Well, I don't have the expertise to make

12 that assessment. I'd refer you again to those

13 experts who make those category judgments.

14 Q. So as you sit here today, you're telling

15 us in this room that you do not know what the

16 velocity of the winds were when Hurricane

17 Katrina came on shore?

18 A. My recollection is that there have been

19 different assessments of that storm since it

20 hit landfall, and those assessments have, if I

21 recall, been changed by various experts, and

22 I'm not an expert to render judgment on the

23 scientific category of that storm.

24 Q. I'm talking about your own personal

25 knowledge as parish president, following


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1 Hurricane Katrina, can you tell us the velocity

2 of the winds when it struck the Jefferson

3 Parish area?

4 A. No, ma'am, I cannot tell you that.

5 Q. It's correct, though, that the

6 Catastrophic Weather Event, referred to as the

7 Doomsday Plan, should be implemented only when

8 the National Hurricane Center says that there

9 is a Category 4 or greater hurricane making

10 landfall within the metropolitan region?

11 A. That's what the plan says, make landfall

12 within the metropolitan region.

13 Q. So if there is no forecast of a Category

14 4 or greater hurricane, is it correct that this

15 Catastrophic Weather Event, or the Doomsday

16 Plan, should not be implemented?

17 A. Well, the prologue says exactly as I

18 read it. I'll let it speak for itself.

19 Q. A Category 4, according to my experts,

20 is a 135 miles per hour and above winds. Can

21 you tell us with any certainty whether or not

22 you know that Jefferson Parish experienced 135-

23 mile-an-hour winds or above following Hurricane

24 Katrina, during or following -- rather during



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1 A. No, ma'am.

2 Q. Going back, once again, to my previous

3 question, as parish president, reviewing the

4 Doomsday Plan, it should not be implemented

5 unless it's a Category 4 or greater hurricane

6 that's being forecasted, according to the

7 written document?

8 A. Yes, ma'am. I think you are recounting

9 the document just as I read it.

10 Q. Now, this particular document says that

11 the following people will remain in the Parish

12 of Jefferson throughout the event. It lists a

13 bunch of people. It also lists the pump

14 station director; is that correct?

15 A. That title is there, yes.

16 Q. Who was the pump station director during


18 A. I would refer you to public record on

19 that. I do not recall who --

20 Q. You don't know who he was?

21 A. I do not recall the name, no, ma'am.

22 Q. Do you know whether or not he remained

23 in Jefferson Parish?

24 A. No, ma'am, I do not.

25 Q. Did you make any attempt to see whether


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1 or not he remained, as parish president?

2 A. No, ma'am, I did not.

3 Q. Do you know if anybody else made any

4 attempt to see if he remained?

5 A. No, ma'am, I don't.

6 Q. As parish president, do you know if the

7 other people listed in this category, the chief

8 administrative assistant, the parish attorney,

9 the emergency manager, et cetera, all these

10 other people that are listed here, remained in

11 Jefferson Parish during Hurricane Katrina?

12 A. Certainly, I knew that Tim Whitmer was

13 here. Certainly, I knew that Tom Wilkinson was

14 here.

15 Q. Who were they?

16 A. Tom Wilkinson is the parish attorney.

17 Tim Whitmer is the chief administrative

18 assistant. Walter Maestri would be the

19 emergency manager.

20 Q. Was he here during the entire event?

21 A. To my recollection, yes.

22 Q. Look at the other people. General

23 services director, the director of engineering,

24 do you know if they were there?

25 A. I don't have any independent


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1 recollection of them.

2 Q. You don't know even know who they are;

3 is that correct?

4 A. No recollection at this time.

5 Q. Turn to the second page. It says, "It

6 will be the responsibility of the Directors of

7 Pump Stations, Streets, Drainage, and the other

8 field based departments to make sure that their

9 employees are at the "in parish" employee

10 shelters at the appointed time." Does it say

11 that?

12 A. Yes, ma'am.

13 Q. What is an in-parish employee shelter?

14 A. That would have to be defined by the

15 director of emergency management, because there

16 is no definition given in this plan.

17 Q. So you don't know what it is, where it's

18 located, or where it was located during


20 A. No, ma'am.

21 Q. As you sit here today, do you know

22 whether or not any pump station operators were

23 in the in-parish employee shelters?

24 A. No, ma'am.

25 Q. As you sit here today, at the time of


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1 Hurricane Katrina, it's your testimony, under

2 oath, that you don't know where these in-parish

3 employee shelters were located?

4 A. If in fact they existed at all in

5 Katrina, no, ma'am, I don't.

6 Q. So before Hurricane Katrina made

7 landfall, and knowing that a Doomsday Plan was

8 going to be implemented, as parish president,

9 you never made any attempt to look at this plan

10 and determine whether or not the plan was going

11 to be implemented as directed?

12 A. Your question says that I knew that the

13 Doomsday Plan was going to be implemented.

14 I've already testified that I did not know this

15 plan existed calling for the evacuation of the

16 pump operators. So your question to me would

17 not be a question that I could answer any other

18 way than I've answered before, that I was not

19 made aware of this plan prior to Katrina.

20 Q. So you didn't know if it existed. Do

21 you know if Walter Maestri followed this plan,

22 and I'm referring to the Catastrophic Weather

23 Event Doomsday Plan, at the time of Hurricane

24 Katrina?

25 A. I would assume, assume, that he followed


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1 these plans. I don't have any personal

2 knowledge that he followed every element of

3 every plan that was in front of him. I don't

4 have that knowledge as we speak.

5 Q. He never gave you a copy of it and said

6 that this was the plan that was going to be

7 followed?

8 A. No, ma'am.

9 Q. As parish president, "the head of the

10 ship," as we may say in admiralty and maritime

11 law, wasn't it your responsibility to know what

12 type of plan was going to be implemented in the

13 case of an impending disaster which could be

14 catastrophic?

15 A. I would have assumed that all directors

16 would forward to me all information that I

17 needed to know on a need-to-know basis. That's

18 an assumption that I would always make of my

19 directors under emergency plans or any other

20 plans. I would make that assumption.

21 Q. You had no meeting with them to

22 determine what they were going to do or what

23 course they were going to follow prior to the

24 arrival of Hurricane Katrina?

25 A. Except in regards to, as I mentioned


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1 before, the conference calls that were held on

2 a regular basis, and then the determination

3 about citizen evacuation was an independent

4 discussion, because that is a matter of

5 coordination with other parishes and

6 coordination with the state in regards to

7 contraflow. So that is a decision that I was

8 asked to participate in and to make a decision

9 on.

10 Q. I think my direct question to you was,

11 as parish president, as head of the ship, as we

12 say in admiralty and maritime law, did you make

13 any attempt to meet with your directors or

14 emergency management chiefs or personnel to

15 determine what plan they had for the parish

16 with regard to the evacuation of essential

17 personnel, such as pump operators, prior to the

18 arrival of Hurricane Katrina?

19 A. No, ma'am.

20 Q. Is there any particular reason why you

21 did not, because you were parish president?

22 A. Again, emergency plans are written in

23 advance of emergencies, and these plans are

24 implemented according to their own benchmarks

25 and their guidelines. I trusted the people


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1 that were in place.

2 Q. You said that you read the Doomsday

3 Plan. Is it correct that you did not even know

4 they had a Doomsday Plan before Hurricane

5 Katrina?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. You didn't read it until after Hurricane

8 Katrina?


10 Q. When did you read it?

11 A. I do not remember the exact day or the

12 exact time, but it was after the event, at the

13 time that this became an issue, and I asked --

14 Q. In other words, the lawsuits become an

15 issue?

16 A. No. I don't think the lawsuits were

17 filed at that time, but I don't recall the

18 exact timing. Once it became an issue for

19 questioning by the press, I recall wanting to

20 see a copy of this plan myself and to review

21 it.

22 Q. The parish president is a very important

23 position. It's the top echelon. Would you

24 agree with that?

25 A. Well, it is one of the top positions in


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1 the parish government. There are eight elected

2 to run the parish, seven councilmen and one

3 parish president, so certainly I'm one of

4 eight.

5 Q. Would you say that the buck stops with

6 you as parish president, generally, in decision

7 making?

8 A. I think from an accountability stand-

9 point in the public eye, that's certainly a

10 perception.

11 Q. As parish president, didn't you keep an

12 hourly track on what was happening prior to


14 A. I did not. I assume that there are

15 records with emergency management that would be

16 tracking the conference calls that I mentioned

17 earlier and other events, such as press

18 conferences that were held.

19 Q. So you didn't feel that that was your

20 responsibility?

21 A. No, ma'am.

22 Q. You relied on others to make the

23 decisions regarding the emergency situation

24 created by Hurricane Katrina?

25 A. I relied on others to implement all


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1 plans.

2 Q. Not knowing what those plans would be?

3 A. Not knowing exactly what those plans

4 would be.

5 Q. Did you ever inquire to Mr. Maestri or

6 anyone else whether or not the pump operators

7 would be available to man the pumping stations

8 when Hurricane Katrina made landfall?

9 A. No, ma'am.

10 Q. Didn't you think that that was very

11 important?

12 A. I did not review personally or

13 anticipate personally every aspect of the

14 ramifications of the approaching storm. I

15 trusted the people that were in the positions

16 they were in. I trusted them to implement the

17 plans that had been prepared in the advent of

18 an emergency.

19 Q. If I were to tell you that Mr. Maestri

20 has a degree in economics, would you say that

21 he is imminently prepared to make decisions

22 regarding Jefferson Parish safety, with

23 a degree in economics?

24 A. I'm not an expert that can give you an

25 answer to that. I know that emergency


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1 management personnel go to seminars and

2 trainings and specialized conferences. I don't

3 know how many of those Mr. Maestri attended.

4 I don't think I'm qualified to give you that

5 answer.

6 Q. Is it correct that it was Mr. Maestri

7 who gave the order for the pump operators to

8 evacuate the pumps?

9 A. I don't know that for a fact. That is

10 something that, again, public record would have

11 to reveal.

12 Q. What public record?

13 A. Whatever record that we have at our

14 disposal to let you view.

15 Q. He never told you prior to the

16 evacuation that the pump operators were going

17 to be evacuated?

18 A. No, ma'am.

19 Q. Would you have agreed with that

20 decision?

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. You don't know if you would have agreed

23 with it?

24 A. (Witness nods head.)

25 Q. When did you first find out that the


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1 pump operators were evacuated?

2 A. After they left.

3 Q. Was that before the arrival of Hurricane

4 Katrina or afterwards?

5 A. It was before.

6 Q. How soon before?

7 A. I don't recall the exact hour or time.

8 I remember it being approximately Sunday

9 evening when I was told.

10 Q. What did you do at that time?

11 A. I asked whether or not the canals had

12 been pumped down to the lowest possible degree

13 and whether or not debris had been cleared away

14 from the screens so that there would be as

15 little impediment to pumping as possible when

16 the pump operators returned to their duties.

17 Q. Who informed you that the pump operators

18 would not be manning their pumping stations?

19 A. Tim Whitmer.

20 Q. What was his occupation with the

21 administration at that time?

22 A. He is the chief administrative officer

23 of the parish.

24 Q. Did he tell you who made the decision to

25 remove the pump operators?


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1 A. No, ma'am.

2 Q. Did you ask him?

3 A. He said it was the plan that was in

4 place. Yes, I asked him.

5 Q. Did he give you a name of anybody?

6 A. He said it was in the plan to do it that

7 way.

8 Q. Did he tell you that he made that

9 decision?

10 A. No, he did not.

11 Q. Did you ask who made the decision?

12 A. Yes. He said it was in the plan.

13 Q. Now, after the fact, and now knowing

14 that a lot of your parish flooded, have you

15 gone back to do an independent investigation to

16 determine who made the decision to remove the

17 pump operators?

18 A. It was this plan that we have in front

19 of us at this moment. That is the basis of the

20 decisions that were made regarding evacuation

21 of all personnel. This is the plan that was in

22 effect, and the plan was implemented.

23 Q. I understand that you have a plan, and

24 that the plan was implemented. Who gave the

25 authority for the plan to be implemented?


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1 A. Well, if a plan is in effect, and it has

2 its benchmarks that are incorporated in the

3 plan, then the plan is activated according to

4 benchmarks that trigger those aspects of the

5 plan.

6 Q. Who activated it?

7 A. Well, I would assume it would have been

8 the Office of Emergency Management, who has the

9 direct oversight of the plan and the

10 implementation of the plan, as I said earlier

11 in my conversation.

12 Q. Would that be Mr. Maestri?

13 A. Yes. That's my assumption, it would be

14 Mr. Maestri.

15 MS. JACOBS:

16 In connection with the testimony of

17 Mr. Broussard, I'd like to offer, introduce,

18 and file into evidence the Catastrophic Weather

19 Event Doomsday Plan as B-1 and ask it be filed.

20 MR. PHAYER:

21 Darleen, can we use this copy?

22 This is Bates stamped. This is what we

23 previously produced.

24 MS. JACOBS:

25 We'll mark it B-1 and give it to the


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1 court reporter.

2 BY MS. JACOBS:

3 Q. Could you, as parish president, have

4 vetoed the decision to remove the pump

5 operators?

6 A. I don't know the answer to that.

7 Q. Did you have any reservations about

8 whether or not they should remain in their

9 pumping stations?

10 A. I was told after the fact.

11 Q. Well, I thought you just told us that

12 you actually were told Sunday, the Sunday

13 before the storm, that the pump operators were

14 going to not be at their pumping stations?

15 A. What I said was that they had already

16 left, by the time that I was told that they had

17 left the stations. They had already evacuated

18 the parish.

19 Q. Do you know where they had been

20 evacuated to?

21 A. I asked at that time, and I was told

22 Mount Hermon.

23 Q. Did you know they actually went to

24 Tangipahoa?

25 A. I know that because at the time that


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1 they arrived in Mount Hermon, there was

2 communication back to the EOC that the

3 designated shelter was filled to capacity. So

4 I contacted the parish president in Washington

5 Parish and asked for assistance for all of the

6 emergency personnel. There was a large caravan

7 of vehicles and a large contingency of

8 employees that were involved.

9 Q. So it's correct then that they were not

10 in the parish, in in-parish employee shelters?

11 A. I do not know if in-parish shelters were

12 set up as a prelude to Katrina and whether or

13 not these essential personnel that are

14 described in this plan went to an in-parish

15 shelter as a staging area, as a loading area.

16 They could have easily gone do an in-parish

17 shelter as a loading area. I don't know that

18 for a fact. You're asking me that question.

19 My answer is I don't know that for a fact, but

20 an in-parish shelters could have been set up as

21 collection points for essential personnel for

22 transport purposes.

23 Q. Let's's go back to that plan,

24 Catastrophic Weather Event Doomsday Plan. It

25 says, "It will be the responsibility of the


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1 Directors of Pump Stations, Streets, Drainage

2 and the other field based departments to make

3 sure that their employees are in the

4 'in-parish' employee shelters at the appointed

5 time." On Sunday night, you knew, or you were

6 told that the employees, or the pump operators,

7 had been evacuated, not to any place in the

8 parish but actually to Mount Hermon. Is that a

9 fact, yes or no?

10 A. That's what I was told, yes.

11 Q. The person that told you that was whom?

12 A. Tim Whitmer.

13 Q. As you sit here today, you do not know

14 who gave the order to send them to Tangipahoa?

15 A. No, ma'am.

16 Q. Because you did not review a copy of the

17 Doomsday Plan, you had no knowledge at that

18 time as to what the Doomsday Plan required to

19 be implemented?


21 Q. If you had had a copy of the

22 Catastrophic Weather Event Doomsday Plan, you

23 would have known that the plan says that it

24 would be the responsibility of the director of

25 the pump stations to have their employees in


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1 the in-parish employee shelters at the

2 appointed time?

3 A. I did not have a copy.

4 Q. You would have known it if you would

5 have had a copy?

6 A. If I would have had a copy, I would be

7 reading the same language that you're quoting

8 to me now.

9 Q. Did you know on Sunday that there was a

10 Doomsday Plan that was being implemented?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Nobody told you that?

13 A. No, ma'am.

14 Q. As parish president, you never made any

15 attempt, knowing there was a hurricane

16 approaching, to get a copy of the Doomsday

17 Plan?

18 A. No, ma'am. I did not know it existed.

19 Q. You never asked anyone?

20 A. About a plan that I did not know exists?

21 No, ma'am.

22 Q. I'm a little bit curious, because, as

23 parish president, you're the, quote, as we said

24 before, the head of the ship. Are you telling

25 us today, as we sit here, that everybody around


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1 you, apparently, knew that there was a Doomsday

2 Plan. Mr. Maestri knew it, the gentleman you

3 just mentioned who was the head of operations

4 knew it, but you, as parish president, didn't

5 know there was a written plan?

6 A. Yes, ma'am.

7 Q. You did not?


9 Q. Whose responsibility was it to get a

10 copy of this plan to you?

11 A. All responsibilities involving emergency

12 preparedness would have come under the Office

13 of Emergency Preparedness. The director was

14 Walter Maestri. He was the director at the

15 time. You're asking me a question about whose

16 responsibility it was. I don't know where that

17 responsibility is spelled out in any document,

18 et cetera, so I don't know the exact answer to

19 that question. My assumption is, anything

20 regarding emergency preparedness usually comes

21 through the director of that department, as

22 with any other department.

23 Q. You knew that the Doomsday Plan, though,

24 was being implemented on Sunday, Sunday

25 evening, I think you testified?


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1 A. After all essential personnel had been

2 evacuated, including the pump operators, that's

3 when I became aware that the evacuation of the

4 operators had taken place, after the fact.

5 Q. At that time, did you ask for a copy of

6 the Doomsday Plan from anyone, Mr. Maestri or

7 anybody else?

8 A. No, ma'am.

9 Q. You never asked for it?

10 A. Not at that time, no, ma'am.

11 Q. If you had a copy of that plan, would

12 you have followed the plan?

13 A. I don't know the answer to that.

14 Q. Did you all ever have any type of

15 scenarios where you all actually planned for a

16 fake hurricane, in the event of a fake

17 hurricane, and actually went through exercises

18 to see what would happen in the event that a

19 catastrophic hurricane would approach?

20 A. Not that I was invited to participate in

21 and not that I recall.

22 Q. Do you remember the Hurricane Jean

23 exercise?

24 A. No, ma'am. Do I have an independent

25 recollection of that? No, ma'am.


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1 Q. It was a state exercise in the event

2 that they had a catastrophic hurricane

3 approaching, and a lot of agencies took place

4 in it, to prepare for a natural disaster, such

5 as a hurricane. You're telling us -- that

6 happened in, I believe, 2004. You never

7 participated in that?

8 A. I don't have an independent recollection

9 of that. I do not recall at all participating

10 in that. You're saying that was a state

11 exercise?

12 Q. Right.

13 A. No, ma'am, I did not participate in

14 that state exercise.

15 Q. As parish president, I take it you're

16 familiar with parish drainage issues; is that

17 correct?

18 A. I have a general knowledge, not

19 necessarily a specific academic knowledge.

20 Q. Do you know how rainfall events affect

21 large portions of Jefferson Parish?

22 A. In a general way, yes.

23 Q. Well, let's take, for instance, the May

24 1995 flood. Do you remember that?

25 A. Yes, ma'am. I was mayor of Kenner at


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1 the time.

2 Q. That was a rain event?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did that affect a large portion of

5 Jefferson Parish?

6 A. There were a number of areas that were

7 flooded as a result of that rain event.

8 Q. Based on your recollection, can you tell

9 us today what areas of the parish were affected

10 with flooding?

11 A. I was mayor of Kenner at the time. I

12 don't have an independent recollection of those

13 areas that would have been flooded throughout

14 the parish.

15 Q. So you can't remember any areas that

16 were flooded?

17 A. I remember that River Ridge and the

18 Harahan area experienced flooding. I recall

19 that specifically. I don't recall all areas

20 that were impacted as a result of that flood.

21 Q. Historically, in Jefferson Parish, are

22 there rainfall flooding problems with

23 particular areas?

24 A. Generally, rainfall doesn't fall evenly

25 when it falls, so rainfall can fall heavier in


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1 certain areas, in certain times, and for longer

2 durations, therefore, there are many different

3 factors that could affect whether or not an

4 area floods, its elevation, the amount of

5 rainfall, and its duration.

6 Q. Would you tell us what particular

7 flooding problems existed on the east bank of

8 Jefferson Parish with historical rainfall

9 flooding problems, based on your knowledge?

10 A. Well, just in general, you've had a

11 number of different areas in East Jefferson

12 that have experienced flooding, depending on

13 the rain event, as I just testified earlier,

14 depending on the amount of rain and where it

15 fell. River Ridge, for instance, in Harahan,

16 were always considered to be higher elevation,

17 closer to the river, and yet they experienced

18 flooding in the event that you've just

19 mentioned.

20 Q. Any other areas on the east bank that

21 you can remember?

22 A. Generally, as you go further north, and

23 the elevation is less, there would have been,

24 I'm certain, other events that would have

25 occurred throughout our modern history that


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1 could have created flooding problems in those

2 areas, again, because of elevation, duration of

3 rainfall, and the amount or the intensity of

4 the rain.

5 Q. What about the west bank?

6 A. West bank is, again, topographically

7 similar in the sense that the higher elevations

8 are at the river, and then they graduate in a

9 slope back towards southerly, in a southerly

10 direction, back toward the marshes. So, again,

11 elevation, duration of rainfall, intensity of

12 the rainfall, those are factors that all would

13 contribute to a potential flooding situation.

14 Q. I'm sorry. I'm referring to -- going

15 back to my previous question, I said it was

16 Hurricane Jean. I think it was Hurricane Pam

17 that was the exercise in 2004 which was the

18 imaginary hurricane going to be catastrophic.

19 Did you participate in that?

20 A. I recall that name, but I was, again,

21 not a participant in that exercise. I did not,

22 no, ma'am.

23 Q. Do the east bank drainage canals

24 interconnect so as to provide drainage for

25 large areas?


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1 A. It's an integrated system of canals,

2 east bank and west bank.

3 Q. The west bank canals also interconnect?

4 A. Yes. It's an integrated system.

5 Q. Can you tell us how they are

6 interconnected?

7 A. Basically north, south, east, west.

8 Q. Who could actually give us information

9 as to how they're connected?

10 A. I would direct you to our director of

11 drainage.

12 Q. If the canals are interconnected,

13 doesn't that mean that rain water runoff in

14 canals will flow to the lowest level?

15 A. The drainage system is a gravity system.

16 It's designed that way, so it would be "gravity

17 fed," I think is the term that they use. So

18 it's a gravity-fed system, east bank and west

19 bank.

20 Q. Doesn't it also mean the rainfall runoff

21 would start overflowing the canal banks if

22 there is no pumping going on?

23 A. That would depend again on the amount of

24 rainfall, the duration of the rainfall, and the

25 topography in which the rain fell.


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1 Q. Who can you point us to that would have

2 information?

3 A. Our drainage director would have a lot

4 of information in regards to our pumping

5 capacities and the direction of flows in the

6 canals.

7 Q. As parish president, are you familiar

8 with the parish's drainage pump capacity?

9 A. It's ever changing, so any amount of

10 capacity you want at a certain time, I would

11 again direct you to the drainage director.

12 Each pumping station has different capacities,

13 and those capacities can be altered by repair

14 schedules. They can be altered by Corps

15 improvements or improvements that we're making

16 through Corps programs, so they could be

17 changing from time to time.

18 Q. Have you ever discussed the parish's

19 draining pump capacity with anyone?

20 A. Well, certainly, through the SELA

21 Program, we're always forwarding information,

22 our parish government, is always forwarding

23 information of requests for improvements to our

24 overall drainage system that we have been

25 working with the Corps of Engineers through


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1 Southeast Louisiana Flood Control Program.

2 There are dollars that are generated through

3 this program which the parish matches on a

4 75/25 percent basis.

5 Q. Can you refer us to any sources of

6 information, such as drainage department

7 statistics, public information reports

8 concerning parish drainage pump capacity?

9 A. Yes. In regards to the SELA Program

10 that I just mentioned, we often report to the

11 citizens at least once a year what the status

12 of our SELA Programs are. That would relate to

13 pumping capacities and canal improvements.

14 Q. Is the parish drainage pump capacity

15 intended to protect the entire east and west

16 banks?

17 A. It's designed to pump as much as it can

18 pump according to the capacity that it has.

19 When you talk about the word "protection," then

20 that assumes that there is a formula that

21 guaranties protection. I don't know of a

22 formula that guaranties protection. I don't

23 have the expertise to give you that formula.

24 Q. At the time of Hurricane Katrina,

25 approximately how many people lived on the east


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1 bank?

2 A. I don't know the exact number. The

3 majority of people have traditionally lived on

4 the east bank of our parish. In the last

5 several decades, that's been the case, So the

6 majority of the people would have lived on the

7 east bank of the parish.

8 Q. Can give us a number, an approximate

9 number?

10 A. Roughly, 460,000 people, approximately,

11 pre-Katrina. You would have probably had close

12 to 60 percent of that population on the east

13 bank.

14 Q. At the time of Hurricane Katrina, do you

15 know approximately how many people lived on the

16 west bank of Jefferson Parish?

17 A. Again, that would be an approximation.

18 Approximately 40 percent, although, we have

19 population statistics that I can make readily

20 available to you that would give you the most

21 exact numbers that we have available to us.

22 Q. Where would those statistics be located?

23 A. They would probably be -- well, they

24 would certainly be in our files, as we get

25 updates on population from the Census Bureau,


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1 is one. And there is a university in Louisiana

2 that typically updates in between the census

3 tracts of ten years. So whatever information

4 we have in our files, if you make the request

5 for it, I'll provide that information for you.

6 Q. At the time of Hurricane Katrina, do you

7 know how many houses were located on the east

8 bank versus the west bank?

9 A. No, ma'am.

10 Q. Do you know if anyone would have that

11 information?

12 A. You can request it of us. Again,

13 whatever information we have may be through

14 JEDCO, possibly through our water meter counts.

15 We could certainly give you that. Our water

16 meters might be the best indicator that we'd

17 have control over. The electric company would

18 have electric meters as a means of estimating

19 the number of houses.

20 Q. Can you tell us what historical rainfall

21 events have caused wide areas of flooding on

22 the east bank and west bank of Jefferson

23 Parish?

24 A. Since what date?

25 Q. Well, since 1995.


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1 A. Well, I think the one you mentioned in

2 1995 was the biggest event of any that has

3 happened since. I mean, obviously, other than

4 Katrina. Katrina would have been the biggest.

5 And '95 certainly would have been the other

6 major one that stands out in my mind.

7 Q. Isn't it a fact that even before

8 Hurricane Katrina you were aware that flooding

9 on the east and west bank was a parishwide

10 threat in certain areas?

11 A. Because we are surrounded by levees on

12 both the east and west bank, we are always

13 susceptible to the happenstance of heavy

14 rainfall coming into our area, creating more

15 rainwater than we have pumping capacity.

16 Q. How many pumping stations do they have

17 on the east bank of Jefferson Parish?

18 A. We have, to my recollection, and I can

19 give you exact records, we have six major

20 stations.

21 Q. How many pumping stations do they have

22 on the west bank of Jefferson Parish?

23 A. You have a greater number because you

24 have a number of smaller stations. In some

25 instances, you have unmanned stations. Around


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1 13 would be my approximation, but we can give

2 you the exact number at your request.

3 Q. You know where these pumping stations

4 are located?

5 A. Again, I will give you the locations of

6 each of those stations, east bank and west

7 bank. I'd rather be exact in my answer, so

8 we'll provide that information to you.

9 MS. JACOBS:

10 We'd like to call for production of

11 that, Dennis, and the locations of the pumping

12 stations on the east and west bank.

13 MR. PHAYER:

14 I'll be happy to look for that. We

15 may have produced some of this previously in

16 discovery.

17 MS. JACOBS:

18 I don't recall it being produced.

19 MR. PHAYER:

20 That's fine. We'll check that for

21 you.

22 BY MS. JACOBS:

23 Q. Can you tell us the total pumping

24 capacity of the drainage system in inches of

25 rainfall per hour for the east and west bank?


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1 A. Again, I'd refer you to our drainage

2 department. We can give you the exact numbers

3 of our pumping capacity. Are you asking for

4 that capacity now or at the time of Katrina?

5 Q. I'll ask Dennis to produce that for me.

6 At the time of the Hurricane Katrina is really

7 what we're interested in.

8 A. We can give you those figures that you

9 are requesting.

10 MR. PHAYER:

11 The pumping capacities of those?

12 Sure.

13 MS. JACOBS:

14 Exactly.

15 THE WITNESS:

16 They vary from station to station,

17 because the stations are different sizes.

18 BY MS. JACOBS:

19 Q. Are any of these pumping stations on the

20 east bank or the west bank automated? In other

21 words, can they operate with a switch?

22 A. I would prefer you get that information

23 from our drainage director. When you say the

24 word "automated," there are a lot of

25 connotations with that, as to the functionality


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1 of a station versus what ability you have to

2 turn on a certain piece of equipment. So,

3 typically, automation has a connotation to it.

4 You're asking this question at the time of

5 Katrina, so I would direct that question to the

6 expertise that could give you the answer, which

7 would be the drainage director.

8 Q. Isn't it a fact that you had knowledge

9 before Hurricane Katrina that if the pumps were

10 turned off that would increase the likelihood

11 of flooding in Jefferson Parish on the east and

12 west bank?

13 A. I don't recall any document that was

14 presented to me stating that fact.

15 Q. But because of the prior problems that

16 you've had in the parish with flooding,

17 certainly you knew if the pumps were not

18 operating, there was a propensity for the

19 parish to flood in certain areas?

20 A. Relative to the events that you

21 mentioned, there is a propensity to flood with

22 full capacity.

23 Q. But you did know that without these

24 pumps operating, there was more of a propensity

25 for the parish to flood?


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1 A. My experience is that rainfall of

2 undetermined amounts at unpredictable times can

3 create flooding in any area of the parish at

4 any time irregardless of a pumping capacity.

5 Q. That's why -- but that's why the parish

6 has pumps, to protect the parish from flooding;

7 is that right?

8 A. As best we can.

9 Q. Well, common sense would tell you that

10 the pumps are there for a reason; is that

11 right?

12 A. The pumps are there to give us as much

13 pumping capacity as we can to drain water from

14 the parish.

15 Q. If the pumps were turned off, that would

16 increase the likelihood of flooding, would it

17 not?

18 A. Well, again, that's an expertise level

19 that I would defer to experts, because you have

20 mentioned an event in 1995 that was a flood

21 event, irrespective of pumping capacity, that

22 flooded a great portion of the parish,

23 irrespective of pumping capacity. The question

24 seems to me to equate a certain level of

25 pumping capacity gives you protection against


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1 flooding. That is not the experience that I

2 have.

3 Q. Is your answer then today that you don't

4 know?

5 A. We can be flooded at any time by a

6 rainfall event of a high intensity for a long

7 duration. We can be flooded at any time

8 irrespective of pumping capacity.

9 Q. Would you agree, though, the purpose of

10 pumps is to try to reduce the flooding?

11 A. Ma'am, that requires an expert answer.

12 The pumps are there to drain water from the

13 parish. Your question begs a correlation

14 between a certain amount of pumping capacity

15 that would then give you a protection level.

16 And, again, I refer back to the example you

17 gave me. The 1995 event, despite whatever

18 pumping capacity was in effect at that time,

19 great portions of the parish were flooded. So

20 I don't have the expertise to give you the

21 answer that you're asking, because it

22 correlates pumping capacity with a protection

23 level, a protection against flooding, and I

24 don't have the expertise to give you that

25 formula.


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1 Q. Who would that have expertise?

2 A. That's a good question. I don't even

3 know that my drainage director would have that

4 question, but I would beg that question

5 possibly to the Corps of Engineers.

6 Q. Are you aware of the fact that in May of

7 1995 they had 15 to 18 inches of rain that fell

8 in Jefferson Parish, and on August 29th of 2005

9 only six to eight inches fell?

10 A. Those exact statistics, I do not recall.

11 I was mayor of Kenner during the 1995 event and

12 not on the parish council or parish president.

13 On the recent events, again, I would have

14 records in my administration that I could

15 forward to you to document the statistics

16 you're quoting.

17 Q. You're not telling us, as we sit here

18 today, that every time Jefferson Parish

19 experiences rainfall, there is going to be

20 flooding in the parish, are you?

21 A. The question that I answered earlier is

22 the best way I can answer these variations is

23 that the topography of the area impacted, the

24 amount of rain that falls, the duration over

25 which that amount of rain falls, those are all


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1 independent factors that combined could create

2 a variety of different results.

3 Q. Do you know what the reservoir capacity

4 and cubic feet of the drainage canals is before

5 overflow occurs for the east and west bank?

6 A. I do not know that capacity; however, I

7 refer that to my drainage director, and we can

8 supply you the information that we have

9 regarding that.

10 Q. Did you have any knowledge before

11 Hurricane Katrina that in the absence of pumps

12 being operated, the drainage canals would fill

13 during a rain event and possibly overflow?

14 A. Again, I make reference to the fact that

15 drainage canals can overflow irregardless of

16 pumping capacity.

17 Q. Did you know before Hurricane Katrina

18 that even if a rainfall event exceeding pumping

19 capacity occurred, the amount of canal overflow

20 would be reduced, to some degree, by pumping,

21 such as that which occurred in May of 1995?

22 A. Again, pumping capacity reduces the

23 amount of water that falls in the parish.

24 Relating that to flooding is a formula that I

25 don't have the expertise to answer.


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1 Q. You would refer us again to the drainage

2 canal superintendent?

3 A. Yes, ma'am. Drainage director, yes,

4 ma'am.

5 Q. Were you living in Jefferson Parish

6 before Hurricane Katrina during any tropical

7 storms and hurricanes?

8 A. I've lived in Jefferson Parish since the

9 early fifties.

10 Q. Can you name some of those tropical

11 storms and hurricanes that occurred during your

12 residence in Jefferson Parish? I'm referring

13 to a time before Hurricane Katrina.

14 A. I don't know the name of the storm that

15 would have come, I don't recall it, in the

16 early fifties. I was a small child at the

17 time. There was one then. You are saying

18 tropical --

19 Q. Either a tropical storm or a hurricane.

20 A. I remember that was a hurricane of some

21 type. I don't remember the name of it. As you

22 would have gotten to more modern times,

23 certainly we -- Betsy was one that I remember,

24 in the sixties. That was probably the biggest

25 hurricane that hit us before Katrina. In


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1 between Betsy and Katrina, you had a number of

2 d

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