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BEST AVAILABLE COPY

EXECUTIVE SESSION

COMPARISON OF PROPOSED RULES OF THE SENATE

OF TE UNITED STATES WHEN SITTING AS A COURT

OF IM'PEACH1.NT AND PRESENT RULES OF PROCEDURE

AND PRACTICE IN THE SENATE WHEN SITTING ON

IMPEACIrMENT TRIALS

THURSDAY, AUGUST 1, 1974

United States Senate,Coufittee on Rules and Administration,

Washington, D. C.

The Committee met in executive session in Room 301 of

the Old Senate Office Building at 10:05 a.m., the Honorable

T Wo;ard w. Cannon (The Chairman) , presiding.

Present: Senators Cannon, Pell, Byrd, Allen, Cook, Scott,

Griffin and Hatfield.

Sta-'Ci present: William M. Cochrane, Staff Director;

Hugh Q. Alexander, Chief Counsel; Joseph E. O'Leary, Pro-

f esional Staff Member (Minority); John P. Coder, Professional

Staff Momber; Jack L. Sapp, Professional Staff Member; James

n. Duffy, Chief Counsel, Subcommittee on Privileges and Elec-

tions; James F. Schoener, Minority Counsel, Subcommittee on

Privileges and Elections; Peggy Parrish, Assistant Chief

Clerk.

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Senator Byrd. The Subcommittee will come to order. A

quorum is present. The door is closed.

Gentleman, I don't feel right in chairing this proceed-

ing. The Full Committee is here, the Full Committee votes--

and I think I am preempting your position, Mr. Chairman, if

I chair the meeting.

I appreciate the opportunity to do it, I appreciate your

telling me to do it, but I am just not going to do it. I

don't feel it is right, I don't feel it does you right.

The Chairman. I will defer to your wishes.

Senator Byrd. I think that the Full Committee is going

to do this. I think you are the Chairman and I think you

ought to be Chairman of the proceedings. I will cooperate

with you and be with you as much as I can be with you.

The Chairman. All right. Gentlemen, you have a copy of

the comparative prints before you now--and I am wondering,

as long as we had yesterday Dr. Riddick starting to explain

some of the matters that we are concerned with--I wonder if

we might ask him--first perhaps I can ask him now: doctor,

are you familiar with the proposed rules in the so-called

Mansfield proposal?

Mr. Riddick. No, sir. I have just seen it. I have not

even had a chance to read it carefully.

The Chairman. I see. Well, I wonder if perhaps we

could call on you to read the--go through the proposed rules,

S article by article. Then, when we come to the present rules,

S you can coimnent on--by reading these, if you feel that you

3 can at that time--on the differences between the proposed

rules and the new rules.

Mr. Riddick. I am afraid that I am not familiar enough

Switch the new ones to make a recommendation, Mr. Chairman.

7 Senator Byrd. Mr. Chairman, I suggest we proceed in the

- way you directed and the rest of us can comment. I think that

SI' is the right way to proceed.

10 The Chairman. Very well. Doctor, why don't you just

start down that proposed rules--if you don't mind reading,

2 it is just a reading job at first, and you can call on Bob

3 [ Dove to assist you there if the reading gets too much for

1 you, and we will ask any of the Members to make any comments

S or to ask any questions as they go along.

But the first portion of -these, until we get down to

7I page 2, the proposed rules are not covered in the present

impeachment rules that are in existence before the Senate.

So would you go through those, doctor?

Mr. Riddick. Well, the first two sections ---

Senator Byrd. Before we begin, Mr. Chairman, where are

we beginning?

The Chairman. At the beginning.

Mr. Riddick. The first two sections, General Provisions

and Definitions, weren't covered in the rules that we already

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1 have.

2 Rule 1, General Provisions, (a) Scope. "These rules

3 govern the proceedings of the Senate of the United States

4 when sitting as a Court of Impeachment, subject to the excep-

S tions and limitations stated herein."

Senator Byrd. Are we to comment on that?

. iThe Chairman. If you have any comments.

l Senator Byrd. My comment is--I realize that we are not

S taking action on this today, but I want to make this comment

S for the record at this point. This seems that right at the

I beginning we are going to get ourselves locked into the iden-

tical language of Rule 1 of the Federal Rules of Civil Pro-

cedure and Rule I of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure.

I think this would be a mistake. The will of the Committee

and the Senate will prevail, but I want to make that observa-

S tion right at this point.

In the very first rule and sub-section of that rule,

proposed new rule, we are going to start guiding ourselves by

the Federal Rules of Civil and Criminal Procedure, and I think19

that will be a serious mistake, as far as I am concerned.£0

The Chairman. And I may say that I think this is one of

the questions that we will ultimately have to resolve. And

S when you get to rule 2 on the definitions, as to whether there

r eally is a need for definitions. There are a number of those

S definitions that I disagree with, if we do decide there is a

5

I need for them.

2 Mr. Riddick. (b) Purpose. "These rules are intended to

3 provide for the fair trial and just determination of any im-

4 peachmant adopted by the House of Representatives of the

5 United States. They shall be applied ---

, Senator Byrd. Wait a minute. He said "fair trial"--my

S copy says "just trial."

Q The Chairman. We are looking at the comparative print.

S Iti says "for the fair trial and just determination."

o Mr. Riddick. .... just determination of any impeachment

S adopted by the House of Representatives of the United States."

.2 Senator Scott. Before Floyd goes on, just- - in com-

S meeting upon what Bob has said, I don't read rule 1 or rule

4 2 as knocking us into either the Federal Rules of either Civil

j or Criminal Procedure. They don't say.so. They may say so

10 later in some other rule. But I guess I want it noted that

17 I differ on that, although this is not the time to consider

8 amendments on this thing.

Senator Byrd. No, but I want to say that, according to

Z0 the analysis, it was provided--I will read from it. "This

S sub-division is derived from the virtually identical language

* > of Rule 1 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure and Rule'1

.3 of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure."

;52 And I realize that we are not at the decision-making

25 point and we don't lock ourselves in here, but I wanted to

I *

S observe that this is the track we are starting down on.

2 Senator Scott. This would be a matter of much debate,

3 I think, on the two points of view. One is that we do need

4 some evidentiary standards to govern our proceedings, and

5 then the other point of view that we don't.

So I just want the record at the beginning to show that

7 I: favor our establishing or at least making clear the fact

3 'that the Senate will have some guide to its conduct from an

9 evidentiary standpoint.

0 Mr. Riddick. "They shall be applied and constructed to

1 effectuate such purpose."

2: (c) Source. "These rules are promulgated by the Senate,

13 pursuant to its authority under the Constitution to determine

14 the rules of its proceedings, including impeachment proceedings

a1 which the Senate is given the sole power to try."

US (d) Effective Date. "These rules take effect on the

17 date on which they are adopted by the Senate. They govern any

18 impeachmaont proceeding thereafter commenced in the Senate

10 and, so far as just and practicable, any further proceedings

?) in any case of impeachment then pending in the Senate."

.i: Senato. Byrd. Mr. Chairman, I note in the analysis the

2P following language: "This sub-division, which has no counter-

23 part in the present rules, is derived from Rule 86 of the

*4 Federal Rules of Civil Procedure and from the second sentence

z5 of Rule 59 of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure. If an

7

? impeachment proceeding is pending in the Senate on the date

i that these rules take effect, the decision as to whether and,

S if so, the extent to which, these rules will govern that

4 trial are decisions that would be made by the Senate in its

S judicial capacity in accordance with Rule 4(d)(1) regarding

4 the procedure for making decisions on all questions other

7 than --- questions."

i Here wte are saying that if an impeachment proceeding is

S pending on the date that these rules take effect, the decision

as to whether the rules will govern that trial are decisions

i that would be made by the Senate in its judicial capacity in

/ accordance with Rule 4(d)(1)--and my question would be, how

3 could the decision as to whether the rules will govern be

^ made in accordance with Rule 4(d)(1) prior to the adoption

S of such rule?

1. .The Chairman. As I read that, I would interpret that to

Mean to envision sort of a situation in the Johnson case where

. the rules purportedly had been adopted first, but then the

Chief Justice said the court has not been organized--and

after they were organized, the question was whether they

adopted additional rules.

Senator Byrd. I agree that that happened. That isnot

ES what this analysis is talking about. The analysis is saying

^ that the decision as to whether these rules will govern the

;;5 trial are the decisions that will be made by the Senate in

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1 accordance with Rule 4(d) of this rule, which will not have

2 been adopted.

8 The Chairman. Oh, I am sorry. I thought that was rela-

4 ted to ---

I Senator Scott. What page is the analysis?

a Senator Byrd. Page 4. The reason I refer to the analy-

7 sis, Mr. Chairman, I take it that whoever drew up this reso-

S lution put a tremendous amount of time in drawing up of this

g resolution, and I should think--and in the preparation of the

10 analysis--knew pretty well what he was talking about.

I, And if we are going to get ourselves into the position

of this resolution, I think it is well that we know how the

13 person or persons who drew up the resolution analyzed it, be-

4 cause it would reflect their intent.

Ir -But that is a minor thing at this point.

36 Senator Scott. I read the first line, Bob--"If an im-

17 peachment proceeding is pending..." But what about the situa-

tion where no impeachment proceeding is pending?

Senator Byrd. Well, this says if an impeachment proceed-

ing is pending in the Senate on the date that these rules

tak e effect, the decision as to whether and, if so, the

22 extent to which, these rules will govern that trial are

S decisions that would be made by the Senate in its judicial

24 capacity in accordance with Rule 4(d)(1) regarding the pro-

, ' cedure for making decisions...

9

How can the decisions be made in accordance with rules

2 that have not been adopted, is what I am saying.

3 And also the analysisays "In any situation in which it

4 is not just and practicable to apply these rules, the present

S rules would continue to be used."

Well, who will decide-who will decide what is just and

7 practicable?

8 Apparently the Senate can't be trusted to reach a just

decision under the old rules. How can it be trusted to

to determine a situation in which it is not just and practicable

S to apply these rules?

12 Senator Scott. Well, I think the answer to that is two-

S fold. First, the Senate does make a decision by majority

14 vote, if it wishes, on any of these matters, as was pointed

S out yesterday.

And. second, these rules do not incorporate Rule 4(d)(1).

They sii.;rply G,y that the effect of the adoption of these rulesii

S would he that the interpretation would follow the same inter-

I pretation which is made in judicial proceedings under Federal

codes.

Senator Byrd. I ain just calling your attention to the

Fact that the whole purpose of -this resolution is to provide

S that the Senate act in a just and fair way, because apparently"

24 it can't do it under the old rules.

25 Yet the analysis says in any situation in which it is

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1 not just and practicable to apply these rules, the present

2 rules will continue to be used.

3 Who is going to decide whether it is just and practicable,

4 if the Senate can't be trusted to act in a just and practicable

5 way under the old rules?

6' Senator Pell. Mr. Chairman, may I offer just one

7 thought here?

o The Chairman. Senator Pell.

9 Senator Pell. I am wondering if you should back up a

10 little bit, because we seem to be moving on the procedure

I that the proposed rule should be the basic document that we

2 should examine, as if we were going into an impeachment

3 ' trial for the first time in the Senate's life.

14 ' Wouldn't we do better to back up and see what is wrong

5 with the present rules and where they should be changed,

10 rather than working from the proposed rules?

?7 The Chairman. That is really what we were intending

18 here, but we are going to go through the proposed rules.

9 " These items are not covered in the present rules. ' When we

20 get down to page 2 we will be getting to the present rules

2 and then we can discuss in that context.

,22 So my purpose was to just have us go through here and

20 see items that are set out in these proposed rules that are

24 not even covered in the existing rules. And then when we

25 get to where the existing rules are comparable, we will have

S the two of them laid out side by side.

2 Senator Pell. But the basic, in terms of reference,

S would be the present rules, I would think.

4 The Chairman. That is right. Senator Alien.

5 Senator Allen. Getting back to this Rule 4(d)(1), it

0 seems to me that this does have an area of operation, Senator

7 Byrd. It says that if an impeachment proceeding is pending

8 in the Senate on the date these rules take effect--then not

* the United Statesr Senate as judicial and executive body, as

10 a legislative and executive body, but the U. S. Senate sitting

\1 as a court of impeachment under Rule 4(d)(1) would determine

12 whether the rules would be applicable to the pending case.

13 Senator Scott. If you would yield, 4(d)(1) says by a

14 majority vote.

15 Senator Cook. And that says "The Court shall act, issue

10 orders and decide all questions other than final questions

27 by majority vote of the Judges present." Thich, again, is

i8 the majority vote of the Senate.

31 Senator Scott. I would like to make one point before

So we get started, because I am liable to get into the position

21 of protagonist here-.-and X don't want to do that. This is

22 the Mansfield trial or working draft. I am making certain

n arguments partly in order to bring them to the attention of

24 the Committee. I don't want it to be assumed that I am the

.5 person offering the Mansfield draft. As the Chairman said

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1 yesterday, we all have differences, but since there may be

" 2 times when there is no one else to make the case for the so-

3 called proposed rules, I feel obliged to do that. And any

4 time anybody else wants to do it, I will be delighted to have

5 them do it.

6 The Chairman. All right.

7 Mr. Riddick. "As used in these rules, unless the con-

a ' text otherwise requras, the term--

9 "(1) 'articles' means articles of impeachment adopted

10 by the House, and 'article' means any section or part thereof

i% which avers conduct that constitutes a separate impeachable

12 offense;

S' "(2) 'clerk of Court' means the Secretary of the Senate

14 when the Senate is sitting as the Court;..."

a5 The Chairman. I may say on that personally I have very

S6 grave reservations about that terminology. I don't like the

Y7 idea of the clerk of the Court or the Court, the comparison

13 being applied--it is the Senate of the United States sitting

19 as an impeachment body, and it is not a court and the Secretary

20 of the Senate should not be considered a clerk of the court

1 'in my judgement.

22 So at the proper time I will ---

23 Senator Cook. I think we ought to get into this discus-

24 sion right now, because--and I agree with the Chairman. Some-

25 how or other it offends me to read that we are going to have

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1 deputy chief judges and chief judges--and I have got to say

2 to you that this is what--I hope that it reached the degree

g of distaste with the Chairman that it did with me.

4 The Chairman. It did.

5 Senator Cook. As I said yesterday --

Senator Scott. I am glad I spoke when I did.

7 Senator Cook. All right, I said yesterday that there

g isn't any question about it, that in essence we constitute

V one hundred judges with the Chief Justice as the moderator.

1 VBut that is a theory. And in practicality we represent one

J1 hundred membhcrs of the United States Senate' who are given

7 ,the authority pursuant to the Constitution to make a judge-

3 ment on imripeach i'ent.

And we do not lose our role as Senators. We do not lose

S our role as duly elected individuals of our respective states.

p And the term "judge," the term "chief judge," the term "deputy

7 chief judge," is offensive to me in relation to that legisla-

to tive and constitutional process: because the judges of the

S United States court system are appointed--they are appointed

y0 by the President of the United States and subject to the con-

S firmation of this body.

- And to "that extent I do not want to put myself in the

S poS.'tion of being a judge. I do not want to refer to the

4 1,Minority Leader as a chief judge or a deputy chief judge, as

.- the case would he to our colleague on the Rules Committee.

14

1 And I must say to you that in basic concept of the divi-

2 sion of the system, that truly does bother me very, very

3' much.

4 Senator Byrd. Mr. Chairman, the whole section on defini-

5 tions bothers me. If Senators don't know what articles mean,

6 and if they don't know what House means, and if they don't

7 know what an impeachment offense means when it is spelled

Q out in the Constitution, and if they don't know what managers

a means, and if they don't know what an oath means, and if they

' don't know what a respondent means' what the Sergeant-at-

e! Arms means--they are not going to be capable of fulfilling

12 their role as jurors in an impeachment trial.

'1 Senator Cook. May I say ---

14 Senator Byrd. There may be some definitions that are

g5 needed.

G Senator Cook. That is correct.

17 Senator Byrd. But I don't subscribe to these.

18 Senator Cook. May I say that there are a number of

19 things in here that I would be on the side of my colleague

.20. from Pennsylvania, but relative to the theory 'ctat somehow

S or other we are all going to walk in, all one hundred of us,

2 and get fitted for black robes so that we can fulfill the

23 requirements of being judges and chief judges and deputy

24 chief judges just is not within the tradition of the elective

25 process in the United States on the Federal level.

15

t Senator Scott. Well, I think wearing blue shirts is

S enough for this process.

3 [Laughter]

4 I have to admit--and of course the Committee knows that

5 I had no part in drafting these rules--I have to admit that

6 the whole process of ontitlienent strikes me as pretentious,

S so that I make no case for it.

SSenator Cook.. Good.

h Senator Scott. I CeXpect to make sure in all fairness

* that it is considered, that is all.

Senator Cook. I will get interested in these when we

n get to plead.iLngs and when .we get to the answers and when we

S get to the conferences rnd whon we get to discovery, and so

5: Senator Scott. ' e all are going to be interested in

that,

Senator Cook. That i s when I will be interested, but

Sup to that point I must say, in all fairness, that I find

this rather,: pretentious indeed.

Mr. liddick. i mi.qht say, Mr. Chairman, that during

the consJide:cation of the rules for the trial of Johnson,

SItley voted to strike the word "Court" out of tho rules because

2 They didn't want to appear as a court.

VA Senator Cook. May I raise a question to all of my

2g colleagues? If in fact we turn ourselves into a court pursuant

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1 to these rules, aren't we playing rather dangerously with the

2 theory that if this court, quote, as a result of our own rules,

3 makes a decision--where is the decision of that court appeal-

4 able?

5 Senator Byrd. No, not in my judgement.

6 Senator Cook. Well, I know in your judgement, I am

7 merely raising the question.

a Senator Byrd. No. I know the question can be raised--

r all kinds of questions can be conjured up, Marlowe--and I

am not reflecting on your question, Ral Berger, a constitu-

tional scholar, one of the most outstanding, raises that

,2 question.

. i Senator Cook. He does.

SSenator: Byrd. I am not concerned about the term "Court"

4 i.rom tha -. standpoint.

.~ Senator. Cook. I am only reflecting the theory of Ameri-

7 can jurisprudence that "court" means an appealable body until

such time as one gets to the Supreme Court of the United States

Senator Byrd. Yes, but I hope that we will not get

is

Z0 carried away with the idea that we are dealing in jurispru-

dence here.

S The Chairman. Well, that is one of the very reasons

S that I want to get away from these terms. That is one of

the reasons that I won't; go along with the term "clerk of

the Court" or "Court" or "Court of Impeachment" or a

17

1 "conviction" or "finding by two-thirds of the Judges"--this

2 is not a conviction by a group of judges in any way, shape or

3 form, as set forth in item 4.

4 And those are the reasons that I don't want to see this

5 kind of language used to give the wrong impression to the

S 1 American public. I think we should keep away from that sort

7 of thing.

i Mr. Riddick. Do you want to read any more of these?

9 The Chairman. Go ahead.

to Mr. Riddick. "(3) 'conduct' means an action or omission,

S or a series of acts or omissions, or both;..."

;32 I Senator Scott. Mr. Chairman, I move that we waive the

j3 formal reading down through (17). We are all aware of those

04 definitions.

6 ITho Clhairman. Very well. All right, doctor, now if

33 you would go to the present rules, then,

Sr.r. Riddick. "IV. When the President of the United

18 States or the Vice Prosident of the United States, upon whom

the powers and duties of the office of President shall have

o devolved, shall be impeached, the Chief Justice of the Supreme

Court of the United States shall preside;..."

2, The Chairman. Excuse me, may I interrupt for just a

. tortaGont? We have a request from the Senate Recording Studio

24 to be permitted to come in and take five minutes of silent

5 footage for historical purposes; either now or on Monday.

18

I Does anyone have any objection to that?

2 Senator Byrd. Why don't we do it on Monday when Senator

3 Griffin and Senator Williams are here?

4 Senator Cook. I would be delighted to do it right now,

5 because I may not be here on Monday.

G Senator Pell. I would rather, if it is for historical

7 reference, to do it when I am here, too, which would maybe

8 make it -the middle of the week.

SThe Chairman. Then let's let them shoot two or three

to minutes now and two or three minutes next week both.

11 Senator Cook. Bob, what is the distinction between

?9 these two sections? Tou have been over them. We are on page

3 2 now, (a) Notice from the House--"Whenever the President of

14 thc Senate receives a formal notice..." "Whenever the Senate

I shall rcccive notice from the House of Representatives that

3 managers ae appointed on thoi. part to conduct an impeach-

17 ment...

The distinction here is that the House notifies the

t- Senate that impeachment proceedings have been sustained, is

.0 that co)::ect--and that is the difference between notifying

21 the Senate ---

22 Senator Byrd. Well, right off I see an important differ-

23 ence. In the present rule, it says "Whenever the Senate

Z 4 shall receive notice from the House..."

2s Now, in the proposed rule, it would tic it down to one

19

or two men.-it would be the Vice-President or the President

Pro Ter or it could be the Acting President Pro Tem. And I

don't think we ought to do that, because ---

Senator Cook.

Senator Byrd.

Senator Cook.

reports to whoever

Senator Eyrd.

Senator Cook.

Senator Byrd.

two of them--could

Senator Pell.

of curiousity?

Senator Byrd.

Senator Cook.

NoW we don'ttt do th on anything.

No.

Vhen the clerk comes to the House, he

is in the chair.

Of course. It ought to be the Senate.

And the Senate is then on notice.

Because all of those three men--at least

be away.

That was the reason for the change, out

! don't know.

I don't know. I don't see any objection

to the point that Bob has made here. I should tell you that

I know thic .. mch -stateints that Senator Mansfield may have

magic publ.icly--and I know he has made it to groups of us--he

feels tha: the oath of office should be administered to the

Chief Justice by the President Pro Tom of the Senate rather

than by the senior assistant Justice of the United States.

And, by the way, the title is Chief Justice of the United

States, not Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.

So he foel.s that this is a Senate function and that the

Senate should keep control of its function and that the

20

President Pro Tem should administer the oath.

2 Whether that is reflected here or not, I am not in a po-

S sition to say.

4 Senator Cook. Well, why would that be of great concern,

5 because throughout those rules he takes away practically

s' everything of the Chief Justice of the United States except

7 .---

L Senator Scott. I don't know. I think you ought to know

D that that statement has been made, that is all, in case it

10 throws any 1 _ght on wha' we are talking about.

:1 Senator Byrd. Additionally, the proposed rule here speak

12 of a formal notice. Well, I don't know of any kind of notice

1 ' other than a formal notice that could possibly be envisioned

14 in the present rules--".-Whenever the Senate shall receive no-

rl, tice from the House..."

0 It is always messaged over as a notice. We don't read

17 it in the newspapers--that doesn't constitute a notice under

16 either.

1y I realize that is nit-picking, but I was asked'to dis-

So tinguish the differences.

t And then, as we go on down, wo say that the Senate, by

22 a vote of the majority of the Senators present.

231 Senator Cook. Shall resolve to organize as a Court

; of :impoachmlcnt--maybe that is the reason for it, Bob, because

a5 of the strong feeling throughout this resolution that we are

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4

4

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7

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3

57

a court, we are each judges, you are a deputy chief judge and

so on--maybe that is the theory that brought that language

about, is that conceivable?

Senator Byrd. It is, it is conceivable. And I have my

personal objections to that, Marlowe. I think we have got to

get away from this impression that is building up in the

people's mind that an impeachment trial is a criminal pro-

ceeding, which it is not--we all know that.

And, secondly, under the present rules, Mr. Chairman,

the Senate will organize as a court on the day after the

articles of impeachment are brought over and exhibited by

the Hlouse or earlier., if the Senate orders.

So under the present rules the longest we could wait

would be the next day. And we could even do it the same day

if the Senate so ordered.

And I don't see how you can get much faster than that.

Senator Scott. You said--and I agree with this--the

Senate shall organize as a court.

Senator Byrd. Well, that was a slip of the tongue--no,

it isn't.

Senator Scott. I don't think so.

Senator Byrd. No, it isn't.

Senator Scott. I think it is fair that we are a court

of impeachment. We certainly are going to be called that by

the press. We have been called that in many of the impeachment

22

3 cases. The question has been raised in discussion whether it

2 is a court or not.

3 I think, in deference to what I suspect is going to be

4 the wishes of the majority of the Senators, their own surest

5 protection from unjust or unfair criticism by their constitu-

I ents is that they are in effect serving on a court, and

7 therefore they are held to the responsibility of behaving

S like members of a court, whether you call it a criminal pro-

5 feeding or a civil proceeding or no proceeding except impeach-

i0 ment.

Ij I think it is valuable to have some references to being

, a court of impoachrient.

4 W hat I was pointing out was that these entitlements,

4 these fancy titles involved in the proposed rules, were pre-

15 tentious. But there is nothing pretentious in our being what

1 the Constitution contemplated our being--and that is a court

*1 of impeachment.

^ The Chairman. I think this might be a good point for me

9 'to point out a sentence in this comparative print, in the

S analysis of the proposed new rules. "The rules were adopted

2 * by the Senate but not until after"--and here the author of

t2 his takes some editorial license--"but not until after the

3 Radical majority had succeeded by Floor amendment in deleting

., all references to the Senate functioning as a court or high

25 court during the trial of an impeachment."

23

I Now, I hope I will not be considered as a part of the

2 "Radical majority" when I take action to attempt to delete

S all references -o the Senate functioning as a court or a high

4 court during the trial of impeachment.

Si Senator Pell. Mr. Chairman, there is one thought here

That I think you cited, that this should not in any way be

7 1 analogous to a criminal court or proceedings, because then

I the defendant is liable to double jeopardy. And the Constitu-

tion nays very definitely that all that we can do is remove

* him from office--he is still liable to trial on criminal

counts.

1 And if we start comporting ourselves like a criminal

33 cort I think that then we are violating one of the basic--

right of double jeopardy here.

1 Senator Scott. That is why he is not a defendant, but a

S respondent.

*1 Senator Pell. Right.

Senator Cook. I think that is true. May I add to what

you are saying, Clay, that I don't mind the term "Court of

0 Impeachment" as long as the significance of the term is one

the phrase "impeachment" and not "court."

2 Senator Pell. Exactly.

3 Senator Cook. In the definition, for instance, of "im-

, peachment" in the American College Dictionary, it uses the

S term "tribunal," which obviously far more fits the situation

24

1 that we are really talking about. It has four or five defi-

2 nitions, none of which ever refer to it as "court."

3 So, you know, I don't disagree that that is what we will

0 probably be referred to.

5 Senator Pell. Maybe we ought to start using this term,

6 because I think the appearance is as important as the reality

7 of what we do. And we don't want the appearance that we want

Q to have a criminal court that we are going into here.

SSenator Cook. Maybe the phrase "impeachment tribunal"

r would be just a little bit better.

1 i The Chairman. It might be.

Senato B yrd. The other addition here is the reference

3 to a vote of the majority. Of course, the Standing Rule an-

S ticipates that action, by vote of the majority. I don't

.-5 think a vote of the minority of those present is going to

is organize the court.

7 Senator Cook. Well, my theory, Robert, is that first

S of all, as long as we are going to work on this, I would just

like to say that for purposes of clearing the air that, if

2 we are going to move in that direction, that (a) Notice From

the House, that that language be stricken and the present

S language of the rules of the Senate be inserted therein--

2. I "Whenever the Senate shall receive notice from the House of

4 Re-presentatives that mmaagers are appointed on their part to

.5 conduct an impeachment against any person and are directed

25

S to carry articles of impeachment to the Senate, the Secretary

of the Senate shall immediately inform the House of Represen-

3 tatives that the Senate is ready to receive the managers for

S the purpose of exhibiting such articles of impeachment,

5 agreeably to such notice."

S' Senator Byrd. TWhat you are saying is that we should let

?' the old rules stand.

8 Senator Cook. Exactly.

9 The Chairman. The old rules apply.

is Senator Allen. I don't want to get the cart before the

S horse here, trying to use this resolution as the vehicle, but

, it might be much more practical to keep the present rules

and work on that as the vehicle to see if there is something

S in the resolution that could be brought over into the present

. rules.

't The Chairman. Well, you have a good point there. The

7 only reason that Z suggested we start on the others is because

18 there was no comparable provision in the old rules, and I

S^ just started on page 1 of this comparative print, but we

20 are down now to the present rules--and I think Dr. Riddick

could go through that and he might have some comments that

? 'might be helpful to us--one, with respect to whether these

3 proceedings wore followed in each instance of the impeachment

24 trials, and whether there wore any particular issues raised

25 on these--and, if so, what the determinations were.

26

8 Senator Byrd. 1 am glad you are proceeding in that way,

2 Ar. Chairman. This is a working piece of Mr. Mansfield, he

3 is not wedded to--it was only intended to be a working piece.

4 I would imagine he would disagree with some of it himself.

5 Senator Cook. Would the Senator yield?

G Senator Byrd. Yes.

y Senator Cook. I would like to throw a tennis ball in

6 your court, if you don't mind.

0 Senator Byrd. All right.

10 Senator Cook. And I know in all of the things that you

I read and in some of the things that I have read there is a

i disagreement with some of Black's definitions.

3 Senator Byrd. Yes.

4 Senator Cook. But I would like to, unfortunately, read

16 into the record Black.'s definition of"impeachment." It says

1II "a. criminal proceeding against a public officer before a

17 quasi-political court instituted by written accusations called

to articles of impeachment."

to That is when they went from--and I think we ought to

25 make this distinction--that is when they went from and es-

9 tablished the bill of attainder, because of the theory that

g2 the impeachment proceeding was indeed a criminal proceeding.

g3 Senator Byrd. It was.

4l Senator Cook. They then went to a bill of attainder

S which moved away from that basic concept of a criminal

I

27

S proceeding, which was allocated to the phrase "impeachment."

2 Senator Byrd. They could take a man's head off in an

3 impeachment trial.

4 Senator Cook. They did. So I think we ought to make

that distinction.

* Senator Byrd. We have separated the two. All right.

7 The Chairman. All right, doctor.

SMr. Riddick. Well, we have discussed rule 1 of the

present rules and rule 3 of the proposed rules. Do'you want

to me to read them both again now?

Th Chair; .an. Well, I think just address yourself there

to the present rule I. Now, was that followed in all of the

3 impeachment trials now?

?r. Riddick. I think so. Now, the one in the'case of

S Blount (?), the first trial, they had not really established

S any procedure that was definite at that stage, because they

Sroally did not get into a real trial on the basis that they

S didn't have jurisdiction, because they weren't going to allow

U a Senator to be impeached.

20 But all of the recent ones--or, at least, all of the

S cases since the adoption of this rule--have been pursuant to

:l? this provision.

I was thinking, while you were discussing the matter

S of whether this is a court or not court, that the language--

I and the use in the various trials, had used the term "court,"

ii

28

but if you go back to the Constitution, they avoided the

word "court" and they said the Senate shall have the sole

power to try all impeachments. And I think the word "court"

developed on the basis that you were trying--that is as near

as they get to using the word "court" in the Constitution.

All right, Rule 3, (a) Notice From the House. "When-

ever the President..." ---

Senator Byrd. I thought you were reading Rule 2 of

the standing rules.

The Chairman. Why don't you go down that page ---

Mr. Riddick. Of the existing rules, all right. "When-

ever the Senate shall receive notice from the House of Rep-

resentatives..." ---

Senator Byrd. Of the existing rules, Rule 2?

Senator Scott. That is Rule 1.

Senator Byrd. I thought we read that and talked about

it.

Mr. Riddick.

read. That is the

it read now?

Senator Byrd.

Senator Cook.

I read it into the

Mr. Riddick.

The Chairman.

We talked about it, but it hadn't been

reason I asked the question, did you want

I bog your pardon.

I thought I read it into the record. Yes,

record, isnt that correct?

Then we will go to Rule VII.

The reason that I think that Rule VII was

29

put here in this part of the comparative print is because it

says "The Presiding Officer of the Senate shall direct all

S necessary preparations in the Senate Chamber." And the Rule

3(b) of the proposed rules that were there for comparison

says "The Secretary of the Senate shall direct preparations

in the Senate chamber and shall give notice to the House of

7 the time and date..." and so on.

* So I think that is why Rule VII appears right there, just

Sas a cross-reference to the other Rule 3(b).

S Mr. Riddick. Do you want to follow the comparative

text or do you want to go back to the rules, the existing

S rules, or what?

SI The Chairman. I think that for the purpose of working

S here that we ought to stick pretty much to this comparative

ri pint, so 'that we can take a look at what we are comparing

i3 it against.

ir. Riddick. All right. Rule VII. "The Presiding Of-

I ficer of the Senate shall direct all necessary preparations

in the Senate Chamber.

"I. Whenever the Senate shall receive notice from theEO

House of Representatives that managers are appointed on their

22 part to conduct an impeachmient against any person and are '"

2 dir-:cted to carry articles of impeachment to the Senate,

the Secretary of the Senate shall immediately inform the

25 House of Representatives that the *Senate is ready to receive

I

30

I the managers for the purpose of exhibiting such articles of

I impeachment, agreeably to such notice."

Senator Byrd. . Now, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman. Yes.

Senator Byrd. This is a new wrinkle in imy horn, that

the Secretary of t-e Senate shall Lmmediately inform the

. House that the Senate is ready to receive the managers. This

is a ministerial function, but I think that it should be a

Senator--I am talking about President Pro Tern. The Secretary

, of the Senate may he directed.

Senator Cook. I was going to say--if the Senator wouldI iIa yield.jii.-

Senator Byrd. Yes.

Senator Cook. The Secretary of the Senate obviously

can't immediately inform the House of Representatives that

the Senate is ready until the Senate or an officer of the

Senate has so empowered the Secretary to notify the House.

i So I am wondering if that is a serious problem. I see

what the Senator is getting at, but the only thing that bothers

me is obviously the Secretary of the Senate can't do it until

the Senate so informs him or somebody in the Senate who has

that authority.tL

So I am wondering if that really is that serious a point.

. Mri. Riddick. The Senate has adopted orders heretofore

SI to direct the Secretary to inform the House.

!

f

31

SThe Chairman. They adopted an order directing the Se-

cretary to do this?

Mr. Riddick. Ycs.

The Chairman. So if the old rule were followed, it

should perhaps road "The Senate shall direct the Secretary

of the Senate to immediately inform the House of Representa-

tives."

Senator Allen. I am wondering if that change is worth

S making the change. I would like to be able to say, well, look,

, we preserved every one of these rules in toto, except this

rule or that rule. These can be held to a minimum.

SSenator Cook. As a matter of fact, that is correct,

Senator. May I say, if you really want to make any changes,

S you do it as the Senator from West Virginia said--and you

would say "The Secretary of the Senate shall be directed to

inform...," then you don't have to do that.

The Chairman. If I understand correctly what Dr. Riddick

is saying hero, we have a precedent that under that language

the Senate orders the Secretary--adopts an order directing

the Secretary to notify the House, is that correct?

Senator Scott. I would say in all fairness, really

S arguing Bob's point, that the more nit-picking amendments22

you adopt, the more you attempt the Senate to adopt still

more nit-picking amendments.

Senator Byrd. Of course. Precedents mean something25

I around here and we have got ample precedents.

2 The Chairman. All right, doctor.

3 Mr. Riddick. No. IV. "When the President of the United

4 States or the Vice President of the United States, upon whom

5 the powers and duties of the office of President shall have

6 devolved, shall be impeached, the Chief Justice of the Supreme

7 Court of the United States shall preside;..." ---

Q Senator Byrd. Where is that?

9 The Chairman. At the bottom of the comparative text.

to Mr. Riddick. This is in the present rules.

Senator Cook. Yes, but they are out of order.

S , The Chairman. They are out of order.

13 Senator Scott. They are out of order for the purpose

14 of enabling us to compare to the proposed changes.

15 ! Senator Byrd. Mr. Chairman, I guess I am simply confused

16 which may not be a surprise to anyone--it is a surprise to

'7 myself.

Senator Cook. Bob, let me say what they have done.

Senator Byrd. I didn't know that we had even read Rule13

20 I

Senator Cook. Let me tell you what they have done, Bob.21

2?z They have taken the applicable rules in here and placed them

in the applicable position in the comparison to the Mansfield

resolution--and that is why they are out of order.

Senator Scott. We will be even more confused if weA-

33

1 simply go by Rules II, III and IV, and then have to search

2 through this comparative print for every one of these things.

S" Senator Byrd. Well, I though, Hugh--if I may beg to

4 differ with you--I thought we were going to start with the

5 premise that these are the rules that we are going to deal

*6 ~with and make changes to.

7 'Senator Griffin. They started with the proposed rules'

O as the basis of the comparative, they should have started with

' "the present rules.

i) " Senator Cook;. That is what we asked them to do, didn't

we?

?. Senator Byrd. I understood Senator Allen a moment ago

is to suggest that we work from the present rules.

*4 The Chairman. Well, what are your desires, gentlemen,

i ' we can proceed in whatever fashion you prefer.

1 Senator Byrd. Just straighten me out and I will proceed

SIj" any way you gentlenn want to go.

Senator Scott. Well, I don't know how we are going to

1 follow these proposed changes if we alter the parallelism here

0 by going over hero because the moment you start reading Rule

E I out of the manual, then every one of us is going to have

S22 to search through every one of these to find out where Rule

2 Ii is changed. Then you get to Rule III--I meantthis parti-

24 cular parallelism doesn't give you a choice. I agree that it

26 'might have been better--and I think it was our fault generally,

34

I but not any individual--but I think the Committee did direct

2 the parallelism which would justify the way they did it. It

3 would have been a better way probably to start with present

4 rules and put proposed rules over here.

5 But the only document we have to work with, outside of

0 the manual itself, is is is one. And I would have to go to

7 page 4 to find Rule III as it is now and to see what the

Q formal rules do. Then 1 would have to go back to page 2 to

S find Rule IV. And then to find Rule V I would have to go on

tO page 3.

t It seems to me it is better to go right on down here

12 and see whether or not any of these rules have been changed.

3 The Chairman. Very well.

14 Senator Scott. I think it would.be more confusing the

S other way.

IG The Chairman. All right, just go right down the line

r thero on the present rules--Rule IV.

r.r. Riddick. "...and in a case requiring the said Chief

Justice to preside notice shall be given to him by the Presi-

,:9 ding Officer of the Senate of the time and place fixed for

the consideration of the articles of impeachment, as aforesaid

2 with a request to attend; and the said Chief Justice shall

23 preside over the Senate during the consideration of said ar-

24 tides and upon the trial of the person impeached therein."

g Senator Byrd. Now, how do we propose to change that?

f

2

3

41

6

e;

7a

23

tz

2

13

Mr. Riddick. This just says on the comparative or

the proposed rule that if the person impeached is the President

of the United States; the Secretary of the Senate shall give

notice of such time and date to the Chief Justice of the

Supreme Court of the United States.

The Chairman. In other words, the proposal spells out

some precise duties for the Secretary of the Senate that are

not given to him under the existing rules.

Mr. Riddick. Now, in the case of the Johnson trial, the

Senate adopted a resolution to be submitted--or an order, at

least, they called it at that time--an order informing the

Chief Justice when he was to come. As I mentioned yesterday,

there was quite a fight between the Chief Justice and the

Senate as to when he was to show.

Senator Scott. Yes, whether he had a right to'come to

*those earlier proceedings.

Mr. Riddick. Preliminaries.

Senator Griffin. Mr. Chairman, may I ask the Parliamen-

tarian a question?

The Chairman. Certainly.

Senator Griffin. Now, in the existing rules on the

right here, under IV, it specifically says "...and in a case

requiring the said Chief Justice to preside..." and so forth,

"and the said Chief Justice shall preside over the Senate

during the consideration of said articles and upon the trial

36

1 of the person impeached therein." Looking to the left, the

2 proposed rules, the language which makes clear that the Chief

3 Justice shall preside is not there.

4 Is it anywhere else? Or is it omitted?

5 Mr. Riddick. I would assume. As I said at the beginning,

6 I have not had these rules to study, so I don't know what the

7 proposed rule changes are, but I would assume that they have

8 assumed here that the Constitution takes care of that.

9 The Chairman. It is in the Constitution, so there is

io really no point ---

1 Senator Griffin. Well, if it is in the existing rule

z and says what is in the Constitution, it is also a little

la strange to drop it out, if that is what we are doing. We

a4 are trying to find out first of all if that is what the pro-

U posed rule proposed.

y The Chairluan. The proposed rule would drop that provi-

37 sion out, presumably because it is in the Constitution.

1 Senator Byrd. Are you satisfied, Bob?

Senator Griffin. Well, I am not necessarily satisfied

S with the explanation, but I would like to be sure what it is

,l that is being proposed. They are proposing that that language' I

S be eliminated. It is not somewhere else, I take it.

23 Mr. Ticer. It is in the Definitions, Senator.

24 Senator Griffin. Can I get an answer to this? The

25 answer is you don't know what is in the proposal.

P

37

i Mr. Riddick. No, I haven't had a chance to see them.

2 Senator Griffin. That is not a very satisfactory answer.

3 How about the staff? -Can somebody else answer this?

4 Mr. Cochrane. We were just handed this, Senator, and

5 we don't have any ---

Mr. Riddick. The Legislative Counsel says that it is

7 in the Definitions.

SMr. Ticer. In part, Senator.

3 Senator Poll. Mr. Chairman, while I am no enthusiast

S'0 for the proposed rules, should there be a protagonist, in

13 addition to Senator Scott, here to explain them or push them

17 or what do you think of that idea?

13 Senator Scott.' I think it is a good idea, because I

4 don't really want to--off the record.

I5 (Briefly off the record.)

^ Senator Scott. I think somebody has to be, in a sense,

7 the protagonist.. otherwise they could be ruled out out of

It hand without our knowing the motivation. Therefore, if you

.i brought over somebody from Senator Mansfield's staff, you

• I. will know what they are getting at much better than I will.'"

2 Senator Byrd. Mr. Chairman, I don't think Mr. Mansfield

22 is necessarily protagonist of this. It is a working piece.

23 I think he is willing to leave it up to the judgement of the

2'3 Members of this Committee, and they have supplied an analysis

25 "here which is supposed to explain the changes.

1 The proposed rule here strikes out this phrase: "...

2 with a request to attend;..." Under the present rule, the

3 presiding officer of the Senate will notify the Chief Justice

4 as to the time and place for the consideration of the articles

5 and will provide a request to attend.

6 ~ow, under the proposed rule, there won't be any request.

7 I think we ought to stick with the old rule in that regard.

6 Senator Allen. I think we ought to stick with the old

V rules altogether at this point.

10 Senator Scott. You mean on this rule?

n1 Senator Allen. I don't see that the proposed rule is an

12 improvement over the existing rule. As a matter of fact, I

8 think it is poorer.

14 Senator Griffin. It raises issues unnecessarily. It

I5 raises the issue as to whether or not you are trying to keep

16 the Chief Justice from presiding.

17 Senator Allen. Let the Chief Justice come over with his

ig Constitution in hand and say, well, look, fellows the Con-

I9 stitution here says that I am supposed to preside--I know the

Z0 rules don't say it. But don't you see, it says right here.

I [Laughter]

22 Senator Griffin. Even though you took it out of your

23 rules.

24 Senator Allen. I believe the existing rule is all right.

25 It covers the situation. I think we ought to visualize this

39

thing. Here is the bill of impeachment, which we are opera-

2 ting under the assumption it will come over--well, let's

3 trace this in our minds, as it makes its course through the

4 legislative process and what happens to it then and who does

5 what to it.

"Q And if the existing rules can carry that through to a

7 conclusion, as obviously it did, because it has been carried

o to a conclusion under these rules, I don't see a whole lot of

9 need of changing it. I think the public generally is going to

10 wonder, what's up here, why change all of these rules, if the

S existing rules have been in effect for 106 years, have done

12 the job all this while, what's the use of manufacturing some

13 new rules? . ..

.r, That is the way it appears to me.

Senator Scott. Well Rule IV seems to be all right to

S 1 mo. 'I think ought to point out something. 'The opening of

1 " the proposed rule is "The Secretary of the Senate shall direct

," preparations in the Senate charnber, etc."

' ' I would think the Majority Leader would want the Secre-

20 tary of the Senate to have something to say about the house-

21 " keeping. And up to now, in fact, he has. At this point, the

z2 Secretary of the Senate has been presiding over an ad hoc

. staff committee to work out problems like space for the

E4 Members of the House of Representatives, space for the press

25 and so forth.

1; -

40

1 Couldn't we cover this by some sort of a resolution in

2 the Senate of some kind, that the Secretary of the Senate is

3 authorized, under the direction of the Majority Leader, to

4 make such physical preparations as necessary, if he needs such

5 a resolution. He may not even need it.

6 The Chairman. I don't think he would even need it.

7 Senator Cook. May I say I think there is latitude in

a the language, Senator Scott, that the Secretary of the Senate

9 shall immediately inform the House of Representatives that

t0 the Senate is ready to receive the managers--and the point

11 of it is if he is not ready, if he does not have space, if

j2 he does not have facilities: then the Senate is not ready.

i3 Senator Scott. Yos. Ready is probably your answer

14 there.

A3 The Chairman. All right.

16 Senator By:d. What is the judgement of the Committee?

17 The Chairman. To answer Senator Griffin's question, I

to had counsel check with the drafters in Senator Mansfield's

10 office and the reason they left that out is because it is

20 stated in the Constitution, that is why they did not repeat

21 it.

22 Senator Griffin. I think it is unfortunate, especially

23 when there is no real change being made.

24 The Chairman. Well, the chances are that we may make

25 no change thero in that rule, you see.

.2

14

16

7

i

12

2al

23

2 4

15

r7

18

131

23

25

41

Mr. Riddick. I think perhaps the reason for the provi-

sion in the present rules on that basis was to take care of

both the President and the Vice-President, the reason they

specified--because, you see, the Constitution doesn't provide

for the Chief Justice to preside when the Vice-President is

-to be impeached, just merely for the President.

Senator Scott. Again, I am not at all anxious to be

a protagonist--but I think here I have some insight into the

-mind of the Majority Leader, but he is the best judge. Either

he or his staff can tell us what is in his mind.

If you look at present Rule VII--"The Presiding Officer

of the Senate shall direct all necessary preparations in the

Senate Chamber."

Senator Mansfield was asked by the press the :;other day

what happens if Mr. Justice Berger does not want television

and he does--and ho said there will be television, we will

docide that.

Senator Byrd. Well, the presiding officer of the Senate

is not the presiding officer of the trial.

Senator Scott. Well, but this is the Presiding Officer

of the Senate "shall direct all necessary preparations in

Sthe Senate Chamber."

Senator Byrd. That is not the presiding officer of the

trial.

Senator Cook. But let me ask, are you raising the

: '

42 , .

I question of the Chief Justice being the presiding officer?

2 Senator Scott. I am raising the question that if you

3 don't stick with this "Court of Impeachment" concept, the

4 Presiding Officer of the Senate here may be interpreted--or

5 there may be an argument on the Floor as to whether that is

6 the Chief Justice or whether it is the ---

7 Senator Byrd. Well, it is set forth in the present rules

o that it isn't. The present rules define that.

9 1 Senator Griffin. Couldn't we clarify ---

10 Senator Scott. You can clarify it in the Committee re-

{l port, but this question has already aen raised by a Chief

2 'Justice of the Supreme Court.

Senator Griffin. You could amend existing Rule VII to

4n make that clear.

,. b Mr. Riddick. In the Johnson trial, the President Pro

S Tom amend the arrangements, because they did the preliminaries

7 before the Chief Justice cam.e over.

SSenntor Scott. But the Chief Justice protested on the

grounds that that was an infringement on his constitutional

P0 powers. That is why I say we should avoid it.

Senator Cook. Well, now, Robert, let me read this to

T2 you--and I am concerned. "The Presiding Officer of the

s Senate shall direct all necessary preparations in the Senate

4. Chamber, and the Presiding Officer on the trial shall direct

5s all the forms of proceedings while the Senate is sitting for

43

I the purpose of tryingan impeachment, and all forms during

2 the trial not otherwise specially provided for; and the

. 3 Presiding Officer on the trial may rule all questions of

4 evidence and incidental questions, which ruling shall stand

5 as the judgement of the Senate unless some Member of the

Senate shall ask that a formal vote be taken therson."6

7 . Senator Scott. That argues against this being anybody

' but Berger.

Senator Allen. They use two terms--Presiding Officer of,

. the Senate and P-esiding Officer of the trial.

Mr. Riddick. Yes, they differentiate.

Senator Scott. Well, the only point I am making is, that

if everyone shares my concern over it, we ought to cover it

S in the Comnittoe report.

The Chairman. Well, isn't it well covered in precedents

at the present time.

Senator Cook. Let me read you that again. "The Presi-

ding Officer o the Senato shall direct all necessary prepara-

tions in the Senate Chartber, and the Presiding Officer on

* the trial..." --20

Senator yvrd. That is Berger.

Senator Cook. "...on the trial shall direct all the22

S forms of proceedings while the Senate is sitting for the

, purpose of trying an impeachment... "

,s j Senator Byrd. Now, forms of proceedings, that is not

/.o

wm

I whether or not we have television.

2 Senator Cook. Suppose he says it is.

3 Senator Byrd. No, no, no. The precedents won't back

4 him up.

5 Senator Scott. Well, there are no precedents on tele-

G vision.

7 Senator Byrd. Well, the precedents back up the fact

8 that the Presiding Officer of the Senate is one man and the

9 Presiding Officer on the trial is another, and that the Pre-

10 siding Officer of the Senate directs all the preparations.

Senator Scott. The Presiding Officer on the trial di-

12 rects the form of the trial, he directs all the forms. And

S if the form of the trial is that it shall be in the Senate

14 Chamber, he directs it. If the form of the --

Senator Cook. Now, let me ask you something else. Is

g6 the Presiding Officer the Vice-President of the United States?

17 Senator Scott. I think including television--that

worries me.

Senator Byrd. M.. Chairman, it is as clear as daylight

S on--what is it Sam says? noon on a cloudy day?--the Presiding

Officer on the trial shall direct all the forms of proceedings

22 while the Senate is sitting for the purpose of trying an

23 impeachment.

24 No/w, that is; a:ftr the Senate organizes as a court. And

S all these preparations that are going to be made are preliminary

45

1 to the organization of the court. They are directed by the

2 Presiding Officer of the Senate.

S3 Senator Scott. Let me ask you another question, just to

4 further confound it here, because I think it is confounding--

5 the Presiding Officer of the Senate under the Constitution

6 is the Vice-President. I think for the record that his view

7 is--his informal view--that it should be televised. But

9 suppose he, as Presiding Officer, took the position that it

S ' should not be televised--the Senate would overrule him,

10 wouldn't it?

44 And how would they go about overruling him? Wouldn't

g~ they have to have a vote?

S. Senator Byrd. Well he doesn't have a vote except in

l the case of a tic.

~S Senator Scott. He directs the forms, though, as the

Pres-idin--c Officer of the Senate.

fr The Chairman. Well, why don't we call on Dr. Riddick

.' hfor the picedents on this for a moment?

.Q Senator Scott. You see, my concern is, Mr. Justice

2'0 'Chase challenged this concept ---

-l Senator Byrd. He didn't challenge this concept.

S. Senator Allen. Somewhere down the line we are going to

23 have to cover the television question. And at that time you

S could have another rule, that notwithstanding any provision

. of the rules, the Senato may have the right to decide this

p

i question. That would be an added rule to fill in the gap,

2 as I see it.

3 Senator Scott. You would clarify it if you passed Bob's

4 resolution in the Senate before you passed any of these rules.

SThe Chairman. Doctor?

6 Mr. Riddick. That is the case, because you can't tele-

7 vise it unless you get the Senate approval. If the Senate

g adopts the resolution to direct that it be televised, I doubt

9 that the Presiding Officer can overrule the wishes of the

1o Senate in that regard.

11 But as far as the Johnson trial is concerned, the preli-

12 minaries were taken care of by the President Pro Tern, Andrew

0 Johnson having been the Vice-President down at the White

S House. And the only problem of conflict between the Senate

S and Chase w;as as to when he was going to come over. I don't

S think the question wa;s raised, even intimated, as to the

r ight he would have to making the arrangements on the Senate

Floor.

Senator Griffin. Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman. Senator Griffin.

Senator Griffin. If we were at the point, Mr. Chairman,

where we were going to offer amendments, I would say that the

P3 existing Rule VII should be amended to read perhaps like

24 this: that except as otherwise provided by rule or resolution

25 of the Senate, the Presiding Officer of the Senate shall

47

1 direct... 1 .at would leave him only to make such incidental

2 preparations or arrangements as might not otherwise be covered.

And we could have all kinds of things covered, which we should

. do--I mean, you know, wi- is going to stand where and which

galleries are going to be assigned here--I mean, that could

all be approved at some point by a simple resolution. And

that would be it.

I am not against clarifying the existing rules--and I

Think that is what you want.

t Senator Byrd. Mr. Chairman, I am certainly not opposed

to amending this. rule to provide that the Secretary of the

Senate shall direct preparations in the Senate chamber. In

the final analysis, he is the man who is going to carry that

South Vywavy. -Ad I think tis would relieve the Vice-President

and the P dent Psidntro Tenm, who are busy men, of those addi-

t1 tional duties.

. eo nothing wrong with that.

SSenator: Scott. I see nothing wrong with amending that

part, because I am as certain as I can be of anything that

S that is what the majority wants, in this aspect.'

The Chairman. All right, shall we go on to the next

item?22

Senator Griff.in. We are not amending that?

, Senator Byrd. We are not amending that.

SThe Chairman. No.

48

1 Mr. Riddick. "IX. At 12:30 o'clock afternoon of the

2 day appointed for the return of the summons against th<. per-

3 son impeached, the legislative and executive business of the

4 Senate shall be suspended..."

5 Rule III. "...Before proceeding to the consideration

6 of the articles of impeachment, the Presiding Officer shall

7 administer the oath hereinafter provided to the members of

the Senate then present and to the other members of the

S Senate as they shall appear, whose duty it shall be to take

10 the samee"

I The Chairman. All right, now, does the Presiding Officer

32 there under those rules mean the Chief Justice?

13 Mr. Riddick. The Chief Justice will administer the oath,

14 yes.

15 The Chairman. To tbhc Senators?

1, Mr. Iiddick. That is right.

17 The Chairman. Now, who, in turn, administered the oath

to the Chief Justice?

, Mr. iddick. The Chief Justice brought with him the

S Associate Justice to do it. The argument was to the effect

1 n that case that there was not any requirement that he take

the oath, that only the Members of the Senate had to take the

23 oath. The Chief Justice on his own brought the Associate

2 Justice with him~ to administer the oath.

9 JThe Senate also appointed a committee to bring the Chief

49

Justice in. Three Senators, as I recall, were appointed as

2 a committee and, after a few days, only the chairman of the

3 committee escorted the Chief Justice in each day.

4 The Chairman. All right, any questions on that? Do you

Want to go to Article XI.

Senator Scott. I would just mention that Senator Mans-

Sfield h.as made the statement that he thinks personally the

President Pro Tem of the Senate should administer the oath

rather than the Associate Justice, Others might argue the

10 Vice-President should administer the oath. I would not be

I one of thoso who so argue.

But we ought to perhaps consider clarifying it either

by arimendment or by Comrimittee report.

The Cha.irmman. As t howho swears in the Chief Justice?

f Senator Scott. As to who swears in the Chief Justice.

S Or at ].east who has the authority to determine.

I BSenator Byrd. I can tell you one thing, Mr. Chairman,

w e are going to run into a barrage of questions on this, if '

we adopt the proposed rule.

Under the present rules, each Member is sworn to do im-

S partial justice in all things appertaining to the impeachment

trial under the Constitution and the laws, so help me God.

S-ow:. in this proposal, the word "Constitution" is left

S out and all reference to the deity is left out.

a2 Senator Griffin. They can have a lot of fun with that.

50

1 Senator Byrd. We can have all kinds of fun with that

2 one.

a' [Laughter]

4 Senator Griffin. Why anybody would propose a change like

5 that I can't understand.

6 Senator Scott. Separation of church and state rears its

7 ugly head again.

8 The Chairman. All right, do you want to go on now to

9 Article II.

o Mr. Riddick. 1 think one of the reasons that Chief

Justice Chase brought the Associate Justice with him, there

12 was some question as to whether he should take the oath or

13 not. And to avoid it all, there are a number of instances

26 during that trial, the Senate being unable to agree just what

15 to do, why; the Chief Justice took it on his own, subject to

G " an appeal by the Senate, like, for example, putting the ques-

S tion to the Senate. They couldn't agree just how he should

1s put the question.

S And finally they left it to him to make the decision on

Shis own.

21 Well, do you want to read this oath to be administered?

.2 The Chairmzan. I think we have covered that adequately.

S Go to item II there.

24 Mr. Riddick. "When the managers of an impeachment shall

25 be introduced at the bar of the Senate and shall signify that

f

51

1 they are ready to exhibit articles of impeachment against any

2 person, the Presiding Officer of the Senate shall direct the

3 Sergeant at Arms to make proclamation, who shall, after

4 making proclamation, repeat the following words, viz: 'All

5 persons are commanded to keep silence, on pain of imprisonment,

6 while the House of Representatives is exhibiting to the Senate:

7 of the United States articles of impeachment against [said

0 person];' after which the articles shall be exhibited, and

9 then the Presiding Officer of the Senate shall inform the

10 managers that the Senate will take proper order on the subject

i of the impachment, of which due notice shall be given to the

2 house of Representatives."

3; The Chairman. How many managers of an impeachment were

14 appointed in the Johnson case?

? I Mr. Riddick. I believe it was seven.

70 Senator B rd. Seven, five representing the counsel for

~1 the respondent.

13 M Ir. Riddic. Of course, I would say that is up to the

. House.

20 The Chairman. And were there different numbers in the

i : other irapoac-ment trials?

72 Mr. Riddick. We have had variations.

" The Chairman. So that that matter is one that would be

24 a matter for the House to determine and we will have to provide

a1 for the seating for whatever number there are.

9v

52

t Mr. Riddick. I don't think they have had any problems

2 on those in any of the trials.

3 "VI. The Senate shall have..." ---

4 Senator Byrd. Wait just a minute, I think we are going

5 just a little too fast, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman. All right.

7 Senator Byrd. I suppose we are wanting to raise certain

objections and make comments at this point that would help us

9 in the future,

10 The Chairman. Certainly.

11 Senator Dyrd. I note here that the proposed rules would

12 leave out the proclamation by the Sergeant at Arms. And I

1 personally think there ought to be that proclamation. The

14 analysis here explains it in this way: "The requirement of

1.5 the present rule II that the Sergeant at Arms make a procla-

Is mation commanding everyone to keep silence on pain of impri-

17 sonent has been deleted as histrionic, pretentious and un-

enforceable."

O Well, vny comment on that is that it has been used in

eleven iipachment trials. And I see no reason to drop it

S for the next one. I am not sure that it isn't enforceable,

22 the Senate can put people who are in contempt of the Senate

23 in jail.

4 And it is still used in the courts, I suppose. And while

2 I want to avoid any implication that this is a criminal

53

1 proceeding or a civil proceeding, I think that that proclama-

2 tion has some good impact upon the people in the galleries--

3 and upon Senators themselves.

4 And I would hope we would leave it in.

5 Senator Griffin. I am going to join you, Bob. I see

S no point in chaxgingi that.

The Chairman. I must say I agree with you on that as

@ well.

Q All right.

to Mr. Riddick. "VI. The Senate shall have power to com-

pel the attendance of witnesses, to enforce obedience to its

12 orders, mandates, writs, precepts, and judgements, to preserve

S order, and to punish in a summary way contempt of, and diso-

14 bedience to, its authority, orders, mandates, writs, precepts,

15 or judgements, and to make all lawful orders, rules, and

,y regulations which it may deem essential or conducive to the

S ends of jus.tice..."

The Chairman. Now, have any of those provisions been

contested in any way in any of the proceedings?

Mr. Riddick. Yes. One witness was subpoenaed and he

refused to show. Later, after the subpoena had been served,

S he did show and the Presiding Officer was informed that he

S was in the hallway, so he had him brought in and dressed him

S down in front of the Senate at the bar. Then they proceeded

25 ' to question him.

54

1 They finally got their will. But I didn't see any

2 other.

3 The Chairman. Any questions there?

4 Senator Allen. He could have done the same under the new

5 language, couldn't he? I mean, just not responding.

Mr. Riddick. I would say it is his decision whether he

7 wants to run up against the law or not.

Senator Allen. But there is no ruling that the present

S rules were inadequate to handle the situation.

I0 Mr. Riddick. No. To the contrary. I forget what the

s ituation was at the time, but they stated in the debate that

S if it were necessary for the Sergeant at Arms to use force,

S that he could take a posse comitatus with him to enforce the

situation that he wanted, to get what he wanted,

5G Senator Byrd. The rules say that, the present rules.

Mr. iddick. They have allowed for this, yes. "V. The

S Presiding Officer shall have power to make and issue,by himself

or by the Secretary of the Senate, all orders, mandates, writs,18

and precepts authorized by these rules or by the Senate, and

to make and enforce such other regulations and orders in the

S premises as the Senate may authorize or provide."

That just sort of supplements that other.

23 The Chairman. I may say that those two articles in

.4 the proposed rules get to this issue that I raised a question

23 on earlier, that the attempt to define this as a court and make

1

2

4

5

7

25

10

si

S13

32

25

16

13

Zi

2 3

24

25

Mo

55

it sound like it is in the nature of a criminal proceeding--

and I would be unalterably opposed to that proceeding myself.

All right.

Mr. Riddick. "VI...And the Sergeant at Arms, under the

direction of the Senate, may employ such aid and assistance

as may be necessary to enforce, execute, and carry into effect

the lawful orders, mandates, writs, and precepts of the Senate.

The Chairmnan. Well, the comparative provision there now,

the proposed rule, the distinction that I sece that is offered

there is to permit the so-called judges, which : means the

Senators ",',."may designate or appoint not to exceed three

qualified individuals to serve as his . clerks."

I suppose the Senator would have t:e right to appoint

any number of persons he wanted to serve as law clerks, as

long as he has, adequate salary to pay them, if he is going

to hire--or, if not, to get as many voluntarily as he could.

But I think that there might be an implication here that

these people would have some official position with respect to

right to the Floo-, or things of this sortC which they would

not.

Senator Byrd. Well, I hope e will not adopt this pro-

posed rule, because TI think that the Sergeant at Arms has a

great history that is steeped in the roots of antiquity. And

it is the semblance and the emnblem of authority.

And I think that the Senate ought to enforce its edicts,

v

1

56

1 whatever you want to call them, through the Sergeant at Arms.

2 I think when it gots to the point where we can designate any

g employee of the Senate and may appoint any other person to

S serve as a court officer or as an attorney to assist the

court, I think we are opening up a Pandora's box.

Senator Allen. I agree on that. I think we ought to

work through the Sergeant at Arms.

The Chairman. Have there been any precedents involved

on that authority for the Sergeant at Arms?

Mr. Riddick. Not at all.

The Chairman. Never questioned at all?

Mr. Riddick. The Sergeant at Arms is used as an assis-12

tant on occasions, but that has never been a problem.

SThe Chairman. All right, VI:.

Mr. Riddick. "...and the Presiding Officer on the triala i

shall direct all the forms of proceedings while the Senate16

is sitting for the purpose of trying an impeachment, and all

S forms during the trial not otherwise specially provided for

Senator Scott. On that proposed rule, "He shall be

responsible for assuring that the trial is conducted expe-23

ditiously and with the impartiality, fairness, and integrity?21

expected of a Court of Impeachment."

Senator DByd. Well, if I were the Chief Justice, IZ4 would offended by that language--to b

would be offended by that language-to "be responsible forZ5

p

1 assuring that the trial is conducted expeditiously and

2 with the impartiality, fairness, and integrity expected of

3 a Court of Impeachment."

4 The Chairman. Is that a higher degree of responsibility

5 imposed on the Chief Justice than the capacity he is normally

6 used to functioning in?

7 Senator Dyrd. I would just answer it this way, I voted

8 for his confirmation, I would vote for it again--and I per-

9 sonally think he has done one good job for the country. I

10 am not going to go along with writing any red flag here that

^ I imputes to him the kind of conduct that would be any less than

97 that.

13 The Chairman. Hear, hear. All right, Dr. Riddick.

4 Mr. Riddick. "...And the Presiding Officer on the trial

i5 may rule all questions of evidence and incidental questions,

15 which ruling shall stand as the judgement of the Senate,

Vy unless some member of the Senate shall ask that a formal

8 vote be taken thereon, in which case it shall be submitted

19 to the Senate for decision; or he may at his option, in the

20 first instance, submit any such question to a vote of the mem-

!2 bers of the Senate."

52 Senator Scott. Present Rule VII is better.

23 Senator Griffin. Certainly the proposal doesn't really

:4 make any substantive change, does it?

yj Senator Scott. Not really.

58

1 The Chairman. No, just that it uses the court reference

2 that I find distasteful.

3 Well, we have ample precedents on this particular point,

4 do we not? The Presiding Officer has ruled in the past on

5 questions of evidence and incidental questions, and the Senate

6 has overruled him by majority vote. And he has, on other

7 instances, submitted the question to the Senate for decision,

8 in the first instance.

Q Mr. Riddick. Chief Justice Chase, as I think I mentioned

13 yesterday, in the Johnson trial got tonthe point that he began

II to submit them to the Senate in the first instance, because

[, he said he had been overruled too much.

3 Senator Scott. He said what?

.,I Mr. Riddick. That he had been overruled too much.

5f TIhe Chairman. Uow. that, of course, may raise the issue

t hat I am sur we will discuss at some length later on, and

* I that is whether we are going to adopt any rules of evidence

ii to guide the court, to guide the Presiding Officer in ruling

s on he queC .ionis of evidence.

.0y Senator Byrd. I think it does raise that right at this

S point. In the proposal, the proposed new rule is to the

S effect that any such prelirminary ruling may be set aside and

2- the question decided by the court in accordance with these

S4 rules.

25 Now, I don't know whr- "these rules" is going to mean

59

1 when we get through. I think the present rule is clearer

2 and with precedents to back it up, it seems to me it is the

3 better guideline.

4 The Chairman. All right, any more further on that?

5 Next item, doctor.

6 Senator Byrd. There is one tricky thing that we have

7 glossed over--that we have passed by here and which we will

a have to come back to at some point. Under the proposed rules

9 -- let me go back to the present rules. Under the present

10 rules, the House notifies the Senate that it has impeached

^ the President. In some cases, especially in recent years,

4 it has coupled that notice with the articles. In the Johnson

, trial, it: impneached the President on the 24th of February,

24 notified the Senat. on the 25th of February and brought over

the articles of ipeachment on the 4th of March.

16 Seniator Scott. Even wrote them after that.

17 Senator Byrd. Yes.

8 The Chairman. Wrote them up after.

19 Senator Byrd. Yes. Now, managers on the part of the

o2 House exhibited the articles on the 4th of March. On the

t! 5th of March the Senate organized as a trial court, as a

g2 court of impeachment, with the President taking the oath and

23 he, in turn, admirnistering it.

!' On the 6th of March, the Senate issued a summons to the

S President to appear.

60

1 Now, let's go back to that period of time between the

2 exhibition of the articles of impeachment and the organization

3 of the Senate into a court.

4 In all the precedents, the Presiding Officer did not--

5 in all the precedents, the court did not organize--the Senate

6 did not organize as a court until after the articles of im-

7 peachment had been exhibited.

8 The Chairman. Correct.

9 Senator Byrd. Now, here in the proposed rules--I don't

10 know whether we have covered that yet, but implicit in them

SI already thus far, and if we haven't gotten to it thus far,

t2 we will--we are going to change that. The Senate is going to

13 organize as a court before the articles of impeachment are

14 brought over and road.

i5 We are going to have to make a decision as to whether

1I or not to stick with the old rules. I see great danger--I

17 see embarrassing, I see situations in which the Senate could

13 put itself into an enbarassing position if it insisted on

1 organizing as a court before the articles of impeachment

20 ~ere brought over, because the House may reconsider those

2' articles, it may reject them, it may amend them before they

g2 are brought ove r it may amend them after they are brought

S g over.

Z4 Ind, incidentally, Mr. Chairman, for those who argue

25 that once a Congress has ended, that the trial has to start

61

1 over ab initio, the House of Representatives in the first

2 session of the 73rd Congress amended Rule V of the Articles

3 of Impeachment adopted in the last session of the 72nd Con-

4 gress.

5 nWhat I am saying here is, that if we organize as a court

6 before those articles of impeach ent are brought over, we are

7 going to look pretty bad. They may never come, we would be

S acting prematurely.

3 Senator Scott. I don't see that in here, Bob.

10 Senator Byrd. Well, it is in there.

11 Senator Scott, Well, on this page 4 ---

52 Senator Byrd. It may not be right there, but it is in

18 there.

Senator Scott. It says on page 4, "Upon the filing of

"5i articles in accordance with rule 3 (d), the Court shall. proceed

G to the consideration of such articles" and then "shall be

7 in ses-sion for such periods..."

.3 Senator Byrd. Well, the thought just occurred to me

Shere Hugh, that somewhere in the proposed rules--I read it

2.0 last night for the first time--there is at least the implica-

,. tion, if not the explicit directive, that the court will or-

22 ganize before those articles are received.

%3 7 think we would be making a mistake.

a Senator Scott. Well, I think it is here in 3(d) that you

2 R are talking about. "Upon organization, the Court may admit

62

managers for the purpose of permitting them to present and

file articles with the Court."

Senator Byrd.

Senator

Senator

Cook.

Byrd.

Exactly.

That is what you are saying?

Exactly, it is implicit. Have we passed

Senator

upoir getting

Senator

Senator

mentioned.

Senator

Senator

Allen. 3(a) says they can organize as a court

the notice--that would be without the articles.

Byrd. Yes.

Allen. 3(a), I think, is the first time it is

Pllen.

Senator Scott.

~here is

That is

that?

on page 2.

It says "After notice of the House action

but before the appeaance of the managers."

Senator Byrd. Well, that rlay relieve my concern--that

may.

Senator Scott. And the analysis, I am told, covers it

on page 11. Yes. "Upon receipt of formal notice from the

House advising that it has adopted articles of impeachment

and appointed managers, the Senate, by majority vote, shall

resolve to organize as a court of impeachment .and shall set

a time and date therefor./ This sub-division is derived from

pr2,sent Hule : but with the difference that the Senate is

convened as a court before it admits the managers from the

that?

15

tG

17

1D

20

24

2352S3

I House to receive the aLticles.

2 Senator Byrd. That does not relieve my concern at all,

3 because the Senate, after it hears the articles, may decide

S to ignore them.

U Why should eo organize as a court the open we are noti-

S firid by the House of Representatives that it has impeached

the President?

I think we should hear the articles first. We may de-

cide to ignore them. In the Johnson trial, the Senate only

0 voted on throe of the eleven articles--a. d ignored the rest.

And if we ignore them, the President is acquitted.

It is not a minor bone of contention, it is amajor one,

in my judgement--but we don't need to settle it here.

1 The Chairman. All right, next article.

i Mr. Riddick. "Upon such articles being presented to the

S Senate, thc Scnate shall, at 1'o.clock afternoon of hthe day

S(Sunday e-:cpted) following such presentation, or sooner if

ordered by the Senate, proceed to the consideration of such

articles and shall continue in session from day to day (Sun-

0 days excepted) after the trial shall conmmience (unless otherwise

ordered by the Senate) until final judgment shall be rendered,

S and so much longer as may: in its judgment, be needful."

Senator Scott. Well, I think one concern is covered by

S some--"unless otherwise ordered by the Senate." I have heard

25 a great deal of comment from Senators that they do not want

64

I Saturday sessions. They want Saturdays to consider the evi-

2 dence or Saturdays to go home or Saturdays simply to rest

3 from the enormous tensions of daily sitting without relief

4 or interval for the most part.

5 And they have made this point. We can cover that by

6 this reservation. As long as we can cover it, that is what

7 I have in mind, because I have conveyed to Senator Mansfield

8 that I have heard this from a very considerable number of

9 Senators--you were there, Bob, when a number of them said

10 that they worried about Saturday sessions for various reasons,

S some personal and some surely very worthy with regard to some

12 period of contemplation.

Senator Griffin. But as I read this, it is Tweedle-Dee

4 Ind& Ti:eedle-Dum. Under either version, except as otherwise

15 ordered, the court shall be in session.

g Senator Scott. I think it is the same thing, I just

7 wanted to raise this, because you are going to get at some

18 point--the Floor Leaders are going to be asked either to go

19 through with the si.'-day session or to waive the sixth day.

20 The Chairman. Well, you have this as well--once the

21 articles are presented to the Senate, then the question is,

2. you really can't start the following day if you are going to

23 give the President, or whoever it may be, the opportunity to

Z4 prepare if they desire that time.

25 Senator Scott. The first has to be the summons, as Bob

65

1 has earlier pointed out. And then there is the response to

2 the summons, which may be a week or a few days. Then there

3 is an interval of a period when the respondent and his counsel

4 prepare themselves for the trial.

5 Senator Griffin. If I could just make this observation,

6 in the proposed rules, the flexibility is provided by--as I

7 read it--by "except as otherwise ordered." It isn't clear

8 who does the ordering--suppose it might be the Chief Justice.

S Whereas in the existing rule it is clear--"unless otherwise

ie ordered by the Senate."

j I1 And I would think we would prefer the existing rule.

? Senator Byrd. I would suggest at least one change in

the existing rule. and that would be, Mr. Chairman, that we

eq lift the words "shall continue in session from day to day

S (Sundays excepted)"--that we lift those out of the sentence

16 at that point and insert them after the word "commence," so

17 that it will read "...proceed to the consideration of such

S i in session from day to day (Sundays excepted)...," because

0 the reading of that is somewhat ambiguous, especially when

t I aken in contort with eqLerience. As Senator Scott has pointed

.2 out in the Johnson trial there was that request for 40 days

23 and the Senate allowed ten days, including Sundays, then

24 the House submitted its replication then the counsel for the

25 defense requested 30 days to prepare for the trial and was

I

66

I allowed five--and the Parliamentarian may disagree with me

2 on that, six--but I say five full days, because the request

3 by the defense was on the 23rd, the Senate acted on the 24th

4 and gave him the 25th, 26th, 27th, 28th and 29th, which are

S five full days, including a Sunday--and on the 30th the

6 trial began.

SBut what I am saying here is that here all of this time

S elapsed before the trial actually commenced on March 30, 1868,

9 and yet a reading of the articles--this present rule is con-

r0 fusing, because it says 1 o'clock in the afternoon of the

it day following such presentation of the articles "proceed to

the consideration of such articles and shall continue in

l13a session from day to day..."

But the key word is "after"--after the trial shall have

S comenced. And if we could revise it to say "after the

S trial shall commence, shall continue in session from day to

17 day (Sundays excepted)..."

It would be clearer and it would have meaning in the

19 light of actual experience, wouldn't it, Dr. Riddick?

20 Mr. Riddick. Yes, this is the simplest motion in the

S book, this procedure has caused them a lot of trouble in the

2. past. For example, it has been ruled twice, because I guess

2) they wanted to accommodate legislative procedure or something

24 to that effect--they would want to meet, say, at 10 o'clock

25 and the Preciding Officer ruled the motion was out of order,

I

67

1 because the rules stipulated that they had to meet at 12 each

2 day.

3 They perhaps overcame that in part by adopting a special

4 order in the Ritter trial as to the hours they were going to

5 meet.

0 Senator Byrd. We are talking about two different things,

7 doctor. I am not talking about the time of day. I just want

Q to make it clear that when we talk about meetings from day

9 to day, Sundays excepted, we are talking about that period :

10 after the trial shall commence.

p1 Mr. Riddick. I was just going to carry that a step fur-

2 ther. What I am saying is that that is something that should

I be covered, because they made a difference between the day

1, to day meetings and the hour of the meetings. And in order

15 to accommodate the leadership so that they can go over a day

4 or meet at a different hour every day--that is a point that

17 might be something the Committee will want to consider.

I* Senator Byrd. You are getting afield of my question.

Do you agree that the change in the context of this sentence--

moving the claunse--makes for much clearer reading and better

Sunder sanding?

22 If the other Senators don't have a problem with that ---

The Chairman. You make a very good point.

Senator Allen. You have two parenthetical provisos

S there--1 o'clock is qualified by "or sooner if ordered by the

1 Senate."

2 Senator Byrd. Yes.

3 Senator Allen. And then meeting day to day after the

4 trial shall commence "(unless otherwise ordered by the Se-

5 nate)."

% So it looks like the power still reposes in the Senate

7 to set the time of te meeting and to set the days on which

a they shall meet.

9 That is the way it seems to me.

10 Senator Byrd. I will tell you that when I first read

11 this rule--and I have read it many times--and it has always

12 given me a problem until I came to understand it better. I

13 couldn't understand--well, one has to distinguish between

14 proceeding to the consideration of articles and commencing

15 the trial.

16 And a reading of this would appear to mean that once you

17 start considering those articles, then you shall continue in

session from day to day.

Senator Allen. What do you do vwith the parenthetical

20 "(unless otherwise ordered by the Senate)"?

1 Senator Byrd. Well, that just has to do--I think that

2 should be at the beginning of the article. "Unless otherwise

S ordered by the Senate, upon such articles being presented

24 to the Senate, the Senate shall at 1 o'clock afternoon of

25 the day following such presentation..."

I

69

1 Or you could repeat it twice, you could repeat it--after

2 the reference tc the time of day and after the reference to

3 the day to day.

4 Well, it is repeated twice, it is in there twice now.

5 Senator Scott. It is in there twice.

6 Senator Dyrd. So I think if we simply shift the clause,

the phrase, Mr. Chairman, "shall continue in session from

day to day (Sundays excepted)" to follow the word "commence,

With appropriate coras, it would make for a clearercreading

0 of it.

At such time as we get down to that, I would again bring

that up, if nobody else does.

The Chairman. All right. Doctor?

Mr. Riddick. "XII. At 12:30 o'clock afternoon of the

5, day appointed for the trial of an impeachment, the legislative

to and executive business of the Senate shall be suspended, and

1. the Secretary shall give notice to the House of Representa-

tives that the Senate is ready to proceed upon the impeach-

ment of [said party], in the Senate Chamber, which chamber

S is prepared with accommodations for the reception of the

House of Representatives."

SSenato:.r Griffin. The last part there is going to be

kin! of difficult.

Sanatgor Allen. It ought to be for reception of the

' managers.

70

I Senator Byrd. At such time as we are revising the rules,

2 I shall move to strike all after the comma and insert a period.

3 It should be "...in the Senate Chamber," period.

4 The Chairman. All right.

5 Mr. Riddick. "XIII. The hour of the day at which the

S Senate shall sit upon the trial of an impeachment shall be

7 (unless otherwise ordered) 12 o'clock meridian; and when the

i hour for such thing shall arrive, the Presiding Officer of

S the Senate shall so announce; and thereupon the Presiding

g, Officer upon such trial shall cause proclamation to be made,

t and the business of the trial shall proceed...."

2 Senator Griffin. You can work with that.

3 Senator Byrd. There is some language in the--no, I am

a thinking of another area, Mr. Chairman.

10 The Chairman. Well, I think what the intent here is in

G part--it has been pointed out to me that one of the reasons

<" for the present wording is to point up the fact that the body

is continuing as a body considering the impeachment, unless

otherwise ordered.-and if it were otherwise ordered, and we

I had the other part of the day, it would permit the leadership

to take care of other business of the Senate, for example,

,., in the morning, ten to 12 o'clock, something of that sort.

23 And then, at the appointed hour, then, resume as a body of

S4 impeachment.

a2 Mr. Riddick. This is one of the things that I started to

p

1 suggest a while ago when we were talking about adjournment.

2 In the previous trials, they made a definite distinction

3 between "order" and "motion." If they had an "order" adopted

4 by the Senate to the effect that you meet at 12 each day, you

5 would meet at 12. But if you made a "motion" to adjourn until

11 tomorrow, they would rule it out of order.

Now, they have tolerated such motions without a point of

order being made, but we have had rulings to the contrary.

That is what I was suggesting, the distinction between an

S order adopted by the Senate to accomplish a situation as op-

. posed to a specific motion to adjourn to an hour certain the

next day.

The Chairman. All right.

Mr. iddick. '"XVI. If the Senate shall at any time fail

to sit for the consideration of articles of impeachment on the

S day or hour fixed therefor, the Senate may, by an order to be

vi adopted without debate, fix a day and hour for resuming such

consideration."

Now, this would take care of allowing a respondent to

prepare his case.

The Chairman. All right.21

2 Mr. Riddick. "XIII. The adjournment of the Senate

sitting in said trial shall not operate as an adjournment of

S the Senate; but on such adjournment the Senate shall resume

25 the consideration of its legislative and executive business."ld,0

I

72

1 So the way that operates, if you are sitting as a court

2 from 12 and at 4 o'clock you adjourn, you don't go out right

3 that minute. You just go right back into legislative or

4 executive business.

5 Senator Scott. Wouldn't we be a little better off if

6 we said any recess or--there is considerable distinction in

7 practice over there between recess and adjournment. If some-

13 body didn't want you to adjourn or didn't want you to recess,

g as the case might be, might raise the fact that recess is not

o0 covered by this,

11 I don't know how important that is. I notice the proposed

2 rule said any recess or adjournment.

13 Senator Byrd. The only thing there, Hugh, that would

1 bother me is the fact that the Senate does often recess during

S the trial--for 15 minutes or for 30 minutes. And if we said

IG in the rule that on such adjournment or recess, the Senate

17 shall resume the consideration of its legislative or executive

13 business, we might have some problems.

Senator Scott. Yes, I see that. There is a possibility

2.0 of a way out. The Senate shall determine whether to resume

S the consideration of its legislative and executive business.

S I just offer that, because you may get into some arguments

-3 on that.

Mr.-r Riddick. "X. At all times while the Senate is

25 sitting upon the trial of an impeachment the doors of the

73

I Senate shall be kept open, unless the Senate shall direct the

2 doors to be closed while deliberating upon its decisions."

3 Senator Scott. Present rules do not take into consider-

S ation the necessity for having tne quorum to proceed. Nor do

S I think that the present rules permit the Presiding Officer of

S the Senate to defer any vote until the next day, to permit the

7 Senators to research the applicable law.

Q But perhaps the most important thing is the absence of

S any provision for a quorum.

90 The Chairman. Was that question ever raised in the

, precedents, doctor?

SMr. Riddick. Yes, sir. Except for one precedent, I

,3 think, they called the quorum as they liked. In the last

S several trials, the leader called quorums just as they do

' in the Senate, in the regular procedure.

SBut in one instance--and I think that is the only pre-

17 cedent I found on it--it was suggested the absence of a

quorum, and the Chair took it upon himself to count a quorum

and announced that a quorum was present. The quorum call

0 was in order.

|j So that is the only exception to the regular procedure,

when the leader or whoever cares to have a quorum call ---

Senator Scott. If one assumes that there is no appeal

S from any decision of the Senate in an impeachment proceeding,

S there is all the more reason for us to comply with the

74

Wisconsin case and the rest of these cases which held where

there was the right of appeal--that the action of the senate

was null and of no effect, unless it appeared in the proceed-

ings of the committee that a quorum was present.

Now, here, of course, we are confronted with the fact

that the Senate can do anything it wants, and five Senators

could vote on an article of impeachment. Practically.speak-

ing, the leadership would, I believe, call for a quorum every

morning as we open.

But I don't see anything wrong with providing that a

majority of the Members of the Senate constitute a quorum and

that a quorum shall be present when the Senate begins the

consideration of each day's debate, or some other phraseology.

Senator Allen.

Senator Scott.

subsequent loss of a

Senator Byrd.

The Chairman.

Senator Scott.

except to read Rule

The Chairman.

if you don't have a

Senator Scott.

What about subsequent loss of a quorum?

Or that a quorum call can be made on

* quorum.

Where are we, Mr. Chairman?

On Rule XX at the top of page 5.

We haven't gone anywhere since you left

XX.

The question was raised as to what happens

quorum.

I really believe that we ought to address

ourselves to this question of a quorum, what is the best way

to provide for it.

75

1 Mr. Riddick. This question has been raised, what con-

2 stitutes a quorum, and the ruling, the nearest thing I get

3 to it, is a quorum-of the Senate, not a quorum of those who

4 have been sworn for the trial.

5 Senator Scott. Well, normally that would be about the

a same thing, wouldn't it?

7 Mr. Riddick. Well, if they were all here, but say, for

a example, that ten are not available to take the oath.

9 Senator Scott. I see.

o -Mr. Riddick. They have raised that question.

Senator Scott. Or three or four have been recused.

Mr. Riddick. Yes. But before anyone can participate in

3- the trial, he must take the oath. If he was not there when

*j the oath w.as administered generally, he must take it before

S he can participate.

: Senator Scott. Another provision not in the present

17 rules is the one in the proposed rules that would permit the

S court to recess for a reasonable time cr to defer any vote

till the next day to enable any Senator to research applicable

20 law.

I just raise that as a possibility. But it is the quo-

2~ rum one that really worries me.

. The Chairman. Well, in this analysis that we have been

2, given, paragraph 4 provides by rule that a quorum of the

S Senate, for the purpose of the trial, is the majority of the

I

10

2

13

41

5

6

7

8

1910

12

22

3

14

15

76

Senate.

There is no comparable provision in the present rules,

but the question was settled by the Senate in 1905 during the

impeachment trial of Judge Charles Swain. The then Presiding

Officer ruled that a majority of the Full Senate constituted

a quorum for the Senate sitting for the tria' of impeachment.

Senator Scott. What page is that?

The Chairman. That is page 17.

Senator Byrd. Well, the Constitution ought to be clear

enough on that point. The Constitution speaks of a quorum--

it doesn't necessarily confine to an impeachment trial. But

you can't do any business without a quorum being present.

And all the precedents would indicate what a quorum is--and

that is a majority of the Senators elected and sworn.

Senator Scott. Well, my point is there is no provision

for a quorum at all in the rules, of the impeachment.

Senator Byrd. Well, we couldn't do business without it.

Senator Scott. For example, in Rule VII right behind

it--"...unless the yeas and nays be demanded by one-fifth of

the members present..."

Again, what is wrong with inserting "a quorum being

present"?

well, of course, you don't want that, I guess, because

of our present practice where you get the yeas and nays with

very few people present.

i * . , '' o'

, ,* '. .

' 7

tY~

'" L

'- n

i'''

'r;

77

" Senator Byrd. Mr. Chairman, could I interrupt for a

2 moment. I should have introduced to the members of the Cor-

3 mittee the staff from the Library of Congress. And I beg

4 their pardon for that oversight.

5 Tom--Tom Hart is my staff man on the Judiciary--would

6 you introduce these gentlemen, because members of the Commit-

Stee may want to call on them? "

SMr. Hart. Mr. Ray Celada.

Senator Byrd. Mr. Ray Celada--I am sure all of you have

* had some contact with him.

Mr. Hart. Bob Thornton and Bob Tienken.

12 Senator Byrd. Thank you, Tom. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

13 The Chairman. Thank you, Bob. Of course, the Constitu-

14 tion, as Bob pointed cut, does provide with respect to a quo-..

SI5 rum, so that each House should be the judge of the --- quali-

S fications of its own members and a majority of each shall

S constitute a quorum to do business.

, NWNow, I presume that that would be a binding quorum on

us.

20 We have a vote on. And I am wondering, would you want'

to recess now until time certain this afternoon and have an

22 oppPrtunity to have lunch?,

Perhaps 1:30 or 2 o'clock?

Senator Byrd. 2 o'clock.

-" The Chairman. 2 o'clock? '

am

78 ''

1 Senator Byrd. Mr. Chairman, where will we meet at 2

2 o'clock?

3 (Off the record.)

4 The Chairman. Is there objection to meeting in Senator

5 Mansfield's office?

a All right, we will attempt to make it in 207, then. The

7 Committee will stand in recess until 2 o'clock this afternoon.

(Whereupon, at 12:01 p.m., the Committee recessed until

g 2:00 p.m., the same day.) .

., ., ,.

14

15

10

19

1 o

23

24

26

s ""

Si "

" .>1,?

s.

'",r

I

AFTEMITOO?1 SrSS ION

2

4

1

14

17

19

22.

23

C2:05i p~a')

PcScit#* erltorz icalao Y.POL, 2yip AL~cn , Sott

Ao.

Sciiatoz, C-.nnoa. J rls.x~.pht,

TD:".Wy 012floi il h tl-

Wh~cih rus_, Yg ft-0aL 10 1,61th i~i uC~i~tnt o:.' th-o Sonatte, unLess

611,-, iihalL ai;~~ ~a~k ttatagomAll ote b

t~takn iron, IU-iwhlcl, casc, LIU ,.hall be obmItted 'Go Tha

Snpeato cacJ)_Oon; or ie uiayat 1 op~ion, -In the first La~

~ta~o~ ~ any aucii cstia to a vote of th ame8o

the ctt. U;o~~ 11 hqjjO,,tio 1;thevotc-. -ha" be

witholt a C8OJ.LfJul.. uri.c~3 l tho ycavsa ana~r~ys be acaicaby

o-Lt o't~ ~c~prer ont., vrin the 8alno'h sI v .1b c

2?tcn

04

"OA

to

I-

80

I Do you 4Olt to go iturthc!'?

SSenator canoia. An'y d .liaion?

3 Scna Ox'c "G o, ~i~~ o~ict~Z

4 ~eh'youx cnt o say ciuoo:i bu2 az 'cill)I ciasis

5 ~ A £r-;i ti ' p '; i lrth; xiULc

X 1jlmA 0 A 0 t-.0call c~x~zidcor It.1 0o l )Up~'r3

7 3For ol 'Gatpic Abii VQ L1>,li'y may wonder 11b0Tw

a 'we CIO th5A3.? ,i crnosPrO2t.

9 J1iicit oocz bcttc~rto have a quotm prceoni" ii

10 eti7cliy I :pcsn r XQfl Uezto do It tho way

12 Dr-, Idct, might u! y scme~h2lr, Smctoxr, there. o

13 the voto Cnc.'eto 11.y- u-%A-ctib~cm xaminaEtion fl ithe prccen1f,

14 'dithoiit Ca il3-1.Oi ULNcy a-olovinathis rcgscirt5 only two klxn~s

0j. o oCci, c02Q voiOcevoto o.C wiic2-ubt obj7coion, axicl thle otherw

16 b2Jy ca a a *2iin

17 You. c) 1O p Q:\C3v,.n ~Ljg c~ouani;"X aCii( io

Ukji cnvotc;a e haeWe o

'C' wC Sy hoVoought tomake aa ote If, hcW e

f . .

~Ior u nloo ~sthe yoas aa ravs beI-thzllt i-ako,3 out-, the vJordI

2 "divioloA' whicli retce4 to_,iques'vjon as to -vho'Uhor or not it'

3 mean* i,"aaricding axQ boilzZ eu.'tccU.

4 c i,a 'Ucz, ; o'u- Or thotler you;,. Q370vLie -T'o,-,% '%U thirce, az

5 Con'; iw-ivoice :vco, c . Tavsid ol-c or a rol

D:~ llC~JLc~. caz arn1 nayrz.

Zcnatox~r 3,. X Iiou'_WLik~e to sea tho Scix'mte able to

0 opevato. in bt13 Rrca -wl t~h a (Civls±on, I mean by that~ the

10 Scnca-Loxrz ar!nclandA be counted.~

11 ~1~zmay heIP to avoicL asome t:Lme-eCOnr aixipj , oU ca l

12 Sntr:co .~coaerea.

13 c L ar r v. oulcd be dona In a~oc ~ein ryhiow,

~ tItD Xn te1,z Y.a j yc- 2arer s'it,

i~t '..Crannwi . YEY12cou~if yot: u vjayx 'hat; in there

1 T ou Cou I YC "a; Upn au. such questions xvot~e shal.ibe by

20 vOICC,.1. br v-; or iby lvion. unLcou the yeaz and nayn

21ar dmai Oby ~of the flmcmbarJ9present,, vil2 nthe3

2 tOk C OL; 1thiip. that la a b ;,~Or T~y

S5 $o~tov (nmon. All rlght, nextone.

1 3atG yrj. Any rc-con why, a.,ow hav u

2 grob Lamm wllwh ~ a d u llvoln?

3Dr. T thiirc tiat yol u su'oroc1C"lZe J

4 imcOur thlatyou w~ouY.tCa ~ve- a lot Of 1ii" B3cac~ve voicee

5 vob-au-,C,11o c V lla o o rsort to Somu0e1451e3 v oi tn n Or.leX

6 t~o be mire; tho chair xiaya lieis ain dublo

7 If you CcurWi t.ai itua1tion, the voice riu uncer.aln,

Syov. uouIt llc.herhave to go to a ye a ar1 inay vote u1ier this

9 .tuatloz, unilonsiyou ~ng he ruY.o so yoxu aouci have a-

10 V.i~

I S3 ela 1'; w..,fL'ol. Th-C t iiaziavon noteonl on k*eievinlol,

U I c% Xy 0 C,'Cl yc,:yorol-ccG ci, thi rxco 4 Jl ore. wioxe atua mT

~4 VICOV c' c.2::K ln;O Oc7 P -io6izOiltill"; qOute Yolk;lh

S t 0 u I, 0 2 1 azbT..c o rua o zho 2(i tjbecat~l.e

I h 1IC~. nC h. .. :crcTlio pifbIJ oesn't i n.-texaand

S n r ~y n1 , :lc to. thechalr auounced thle vt-eonM

10 iroice vo~cte, ic- :cica!L ao st(ALL In order,.

20 Sronaior Soo tt. StI. In o or yc3.

21 SC-Ila t or cm1n. A L Ixil

22 Dr. R 1, 0 Aa XXXVW "ALL the ord(In:.%zian-ddoislons chaNL

Sbe zatia i(h&Q by yoaz and rtay~j, uhich lIaLl. be atoetXon

~j*~j-~~1 :~ i ~uliCn jtho ooi'rs ahall. be clooca

I

for delierawlon,."

a ouatoiz cotta. Wh-..cd-i meam viit, IF'iya?

3 Dr1 ~iic. WC'1.; O(r~ji Can'CI cidineo LA 1' the. Sente

4 as oppaseU i othO :L' Qucaionu that occur In the Sem to proper;

5 In tliaO prcvioiv c; c iey wlibe by yoazem riays ezeept

6 under RteLoV11 -iihen 43ago 1Into c'!Oica i

7 1 assumaTdo opora~te nCior remur p:2.cc QiaTO voihave In

a 'te Senate tolay

9 Scin2to~ ByrdL. UCio y~ :ou meanby rogrfar rooccure In

~hi ~ i~tyeu 110t dlccbat,-o A10-1C . .iiiC1tr3

J Y C U C T,, 3 Lciyou. can

171

'1cat -,i ap,, x.~ ~~ y. hi aayis"Uteadr nRdcs

2D ao ~ot.Ru.Le 1111zaboe luonly part of thie vale,

Dr.115JIcl,4 uleo V11 1ithona tic jilz'u -'iea-11 bo~ve,

23 h 1 01, uv c, Q)I

P _ _ _ __ _ _

p

1112

I .

14

15

6G

17

?a

841

SDr'. IR ilk.Sorry. Tliere le ac& L,4e bit ieadligthr

begikigi ~viAii "uiC" In the beginnming oP ihc p arg-rphabout

half of it,*

seoitor zCamon, Covos -*v hfa\ve 4aclveadycovoz'ecl the

o±~j2~jeV -a-tO V~T Toiwe' i o3 ta 2i oa

uia 'o edbatc 1 t2 o tho ,popoied rv n, ugaEt -at thioe nCi

of pai'.p1grz cch Olii befginnrixpS"Y7.xYopl; that the courtmay

~occ~ ~?cT-~nc~ c Of t ti- r oOC:CC1'cemy ouch 'vote

ti~ ~ 'U iOl~2O ' k-) Q e_11,0b I -_cacti" -- Uh "nt Is,

~~ can io ttll "uiaiev- pxooan'- jme. Thoy~

Ucfor' vo -O bt.nir. 0 ut v~ L"iB

~c-.at~ T~t~ t~WL~be prezonrt7,

Th4 ~I~~C~i.cz.AMI they fecjuer tIy i'ccezb to m~ake ca dtern-

rInatlona bco.-Co eticy voluii o So on

Scti :.ot Thoi'nt cutlI ask, $nmakIgSa coJrlitee

la AU~c ie mcct tl a aycoec4

Sorry,, our:ct abu~covcb

S~~t~~r &oiA~Th011.0-.2A 3 1 h . adi 2 ic~,In the

Coini~ ~cpo~', to o~fli bc zmz~l i. thlj is a~rvjc~y oveC4 at

0 0 D U

A W

I

Dr. iA~Lc~See; - KXIV there.. tazlktnZ about orders and

z c~oioni i c a pijft o~ XLe V-11 we are cceptln3 s X onQOX124ne

3 ulift id~enoezandinocntal questlon,

4 Pnrlthea c,-xeet uefl you go behi*4 cl osQCi acr;3 a~ nd

S theisc, agan C 1 sy 1312er you. ,3o behix2(ici~oLacl dooZ-,3 oceept

S'or the I i' ol' oC ibae, yov iulCIopci,nVe unclor ' thc*

~on~ x' >nnn.They %ee -AL ro- but thelay 1o not have

Sto bc,0.

1-eoi-mvc Eot cccn~to the o2fec Zi Wexc e Aorecotl.

13 -0 ea-0- otUnl i, th.1.2 rport mmCie fior tho 2.ocorCd where the

z' c c o.'r3dkr. not; z A'zvi lab .o ,.rfit btLrc waa no 2re, port; 3hz'Con That

,ztzLaL~n com uooLproccoringo i~n thceJohr±son trlaL.

J lI 'Atint That v*e vtsc the texiom ies~fl w

17 &X bc--CuLJ.c in that lan~t clian7e o:? the riules cn. thiL-11

.~ 'hcuiCn th. 'Gtat any oc-:Xutivc rcfFjloi"L !ouW be on

Uitc v'c~u~:t~t~ c L ow n vlichn wc e in cwslo~

2a I ~ e ~$~.'Q, :c thni c wect'.ghlto ij.eicc Mi~r. Chairmi '1

Au;~2C&UI~n trhe J,12non riall, joi'ity vote wa

I

86

I recluirca to go -Lnto clo3ca scasion'. The prosiclUs Ox"ficer

2 once votc4 to broalc a tic to got t,;a= jilto aLosca aei3sioll*

WO reqVaxc Only one Bemator ,Civil the ccconclL

4 'lie mr., Vy *kian'u- to to Wic prccc kcnliju anU talllc ol' a

10:3, Q sobjo I-01-1 in 150-rzim, O-J., 1-1mvin"-, a m- "Y

couW 1 un -,:,13

1,111ca I:ao th)-,t ri, !O 0: L]c mOl'u0 adopted

mu cLaocd

Uuntc tbat nocie umy b- -'ar ly

000, C, 1 1 mr- JA-j I.-II I'LitIC c cd -":C 1ca 1On Giv -t8a,] ancl they

plej;."co up liavc vari oCi one rijora, but Wiay picicea up the

12

Scnauo5: Canxion. 1, y quei,3W.on vould be,, waz Waa ruLa one-a tv a," tbc. Umo they took a vote and izel

14 of the San, ru tofj u d 12 d

It? rcquirca c. to cloeW soza.5.on i n' L- lie JohnB ca

-C 6c not, th;LnIc: '-ha tho 1 z0 not17

]:,alie .11-1 rc-,Sz---r6 whea they

M., -purpoccs-.

tftciAc i; rio ruie Tov then

ZT oi, Sclau'-C

1-. Ilcrl 110 ruic- Uhia J.,,, Vilats Chief Juatica

vt i c;,U on, ,,o or i,-*icc,, tilak) ii - i7aa So-K)g by Uic ruLea ai, 1,; h a

2.4 rvIcs did no covei., Wic filtration.

i C, I re-roamber tliat was said,

Se nator 3Byra'. IX iould1 hpe L:,a Wouldi-clarify thl t V

" i'x Out 1Pe _'1v,' (',0m0IC(OlI 011 WIGe £3P1eOf the majoity to~

3 p. uL into rii- ~cw..~ ~o ~ thiO~lG3~

'3 cceulcl P05 UP: 11, -V WcE, JUL!" ~Ing~.xto e0,ireW

s1 ,: D.__n

'-ct -YA t-ut r oi~ r.a o oe 1, ;flt 0I3

ro~ ain nBo zc~ . r&Ci ris oe

vat nor fjvc y the preaaninca to tile -t - A of g XI3. 11

2a ~.Q2~Ay i~h ior ECouf~cfr.;0intCr C)DC

2~ .i. *.at .iotha

24 ayj~ A3wc'r~3CCi toi a"J01ity -voe wonC '.40 s tiet'

y5 o ;~c teot~ -Liue, You e zIng to

88

I there l o oathlnS bo be (iisccajust a£o yo l" inica 3c there

2 10 Uooh.1.1cc;U.C)bk± vabtcrC~ o01-"iLutyou have not aligalea how roix

arcue dit o vo 3c. .Andyou a :criot3 bcuna lhov you a~t'c go.InG

t o Vot3o i1Y OU iC~ orhr Loca, 10r FicouC iV Ci enmaICLI

a n O "r-u a ~~ <c 11V,:~

~ o~ci 3x i~~ ui~~c ac7 nci you -.,.u 1- iK0 L B

Eacch tirzo you 3tco .- right -.ay from Sn 3rYou. get

111nto LQeng'-,1 thy bat-C On why lthey arc, not £app~ying It to thm-

r. I

12 Ig :'r ;;1;;:; c. tO v y

L-0-

17 tnu :.1ci.; d iciC, J_,. cry Ubac 3U0ir,,whvhl,11 Ic -IdCA-.

~ ci;; ficu ai Lhe one . h vote, bul; 2I E10 not3

21 ~~ ~ Q C0~2 ~ oto 0 Vay hc .7rOh rnioof t h~e

22 D~~iy,~caut wo lhavc zlx ccdcy icoc2.Xiwhat youLl are go Ix

2 to o into oc.3.c ol about. Andi youxto iision

2A1, 0 1. . 11a vhc 0 b-1 'Q',t10e ,on3 r-a kub ITi c senail hap,

2 ) jurit c no zeiv ~onn, o;ovci'-i 3c. voteCby which

89

Wic Senatorz; jolml -C'cr c7C.cu.tive sesvlon on, "lile lcaue uhich

1.8 ws t.ha "UtIcal lillpy Cult of C.zecutive

acoi3lan tlic,,yr 'itLU hLavc voklcU appinr tho nmtwure or ulU have

I. CIO 110'u- lihirl'c -,.ic zulshb to so prQjl;.CG0 ,Djl luzue ao to

X-lic of ally z4ore L;o Into executive

2cl-mlan bi

1 do not nacezzar-Uy c.,gree majority vote

to 4ZOrw Into Into cxCGulUve senior woula sl.Gcat a goejul

'o-110 I ri SU 0

.!lie Precc!(.'kan"e iimppor a. 'n.aj02 jJ;Y vote. T a-,.I nol"- ay Ing

to you .1 voulCi ba to of flcme

-'a" that ll "

c l"a ' c--%2X6 tf;o c Loczi-Ci cniy operates

c; 0, int "U.11", a bunl incr,;3 x .y requ c c r cy,

iu.'J:lr Wic) I'mricaclin ca 0)ac Scmators lie

doo", b-can"':j aiaozu;nioll recu"Irect ;'3corecy,

t !I C. 00 "D c - -

,a'fi ruay very welA be beca ic. thai; Is wha

i e CIO ilow -ulhw uc. got Inlip clamstfleQ miatcrictl. anntl tl'la woula

bo Wic culy cno 3'. W-ili ac :fo.,,: certain i5lucove'ey proccedinaps that

cvcr r capor w-W TllcacuMcnt la the

to

12,

r%

21

27,

23

9o

3 Ihoro;, j't1alk prt-no" oxoj, I i'in~Ci ',Rle .',,: (occover tkzat~'c

4 0 .l 1;

6 tra Iof i- ,np Ucj~Aih-c oo-:r ooil Blat: U. 1c 1 -, e Cop

7 open-, vmr~c.-., Lao o ~~i-ioUdir al m tO-oox a to bec LOa3EA

8 whvi L~c d1bo*'0t'L3 por a to cori*i

9 S~o If ho scra~c 12 Go3ig to inc- Alzethea eeina ontha~t

121 'Ike to i ?c ' Z-'AV 5z aCi v cl'te fLac ia ',,; e 1 1ouYt

145o

cK t~~ p ~ Q-' llao2 vir s v!ic waIcinga Court Out of

tt-1; or-y- 1i- ; Li -1-1-ct 11G ba-lalij 0-p-GuYr

20 C .c ? I iuziC 0 ' Xx i-I L 3.it'hey

22 correctz?

23Dr 1_ __-rmoz _ _vrU.a

4) Too I,: a t tho La5 apr) Ui. era there

3 "rice WIG't -. ;c 60 aij OJP M0110 aS wc.11.

""Thcin court Lz:t executive zc3elon,

.J C"n O:i cb.,;l t 0. Up 2011ai-jor a taice he

5 c 0 x, llor a tklw.n crico w any quczt .on.

ra!LW' JuDt WhIWc cbout In light

C) hl, "no i - f c i;o be abLe to hoW up the. pro

Y x- *"orlty 41,acs no wa-at the.31

I bcczwl4i , tho f'% *.Qox for tc;a Mlnlztes zomeba4y

oia ,-,civc 6c, op,= tie5slon,

i-a ithe liltc;l=t Of everybody to rbaLCO It

i G now rZ att ll'tj from the puL]._xt of vleir of Maybc

on aameW-t"UZ,, CAnd you are S

-0 llavc tc :0.jr.lu a7clay. I meark. LZ5 Yo',l Ohallenc'c tile

y 3 lz S o have '*o cft;aLLwwZo him.,

tho 0 )Por unlty ljo go V*-aloO ('Xecutive sasalor

ZI z0*1; ll,,lvc cany ( eba c 13-W Wake YCIAT argument.

;bo relatlveiy caay to be abLe to o i;hat

not WO.n1c Uhcy can go bac k

PV

i - visionon Ira. oointe j) one thing

F . ,

92

-%4 jmuziI;t ~ ZK~:.Yli tACr bak oXV our. ~thatLs ido wem an

'Ir 1-01.OO12 0 IIU. e 0

3iM tih C U JC.rak nleDi O.: ie

4i K" I o; w C pI y !O., c:a)ic ' h i C. tItP. 3 ri I a q x C E3 t 0 1

a av 110'e-e Si%-Onz le-enot -s

3 o'rc :o- ' zx but;§ora vejollt.e ( -his uliiole liazua vema '17

I"! y1l,7iitappl 1 iirar.n ;a:::i :zlIn hse

Pc, JVL3i121,Cj j, ee

:j~~o~~cz Ioc~X t i.'.ItoAAiJi~RE-10 for uL3 oupucltalloz. t;i,3. x- es t 1. o

TO Mkzi..Al; 2A 3ezi;z3 wi~th hu 1seyator Wh~o nmalcas

20 t.Aic iiodL.~;h~~:i; havn to FwaaileeoItits LI ai ah

Z.Z ~ ~ cx ~ le Cici hivc a precc~ont :"rorn the oir~a

25-laeratQa ~rt

qv,

balance, to be, --conr.'erne'a V1th.

oujit "rj ,.*.z. matter .& eaurtesy:, any

cal he SeU ona, 1. wouLd thinIc that

ijoiad loo "Jr1o, it dcrc cbvlow3 he vould be

ft k2i'Lu, It O.n.We 01, tvticoo; you solu- tho

fc-V.vP Q, i-.h;3 oru ;"u.N. 'alm --

Tiie rofiearclh people hmve

ti-ilnk ir, -uo: thv of conrdderIirg,.

U-*",5--J.-, a wazu '%'pakm a'f;;c-r a rullvkg by

W

: b 7, '60 LAvc 110 "'hanae to tlocuss Lt.

Dv. IE1. 6 3 blac-y tocIc recciiscL3 revu'W)rLy on that,

1) - Uhli; mrWxg.

So -he raom-bera woua Imite a chmme to

avA 'Ukia !"z"mAc be: Ozc thC matter rucre aetuaLLY

pu

-M.C;i *.ck*,, JIi'u It:haC. v a; ; by a ivajorlLy votC ao opposed-

to f-Iii zs, augg stin3- "avvx would be abLe

not excCubl'ire.,

recc2a." 1101- Inrs lyl o

tQ C Lf.-re Ve war. , to be

35

17

la

Ze!

I

:3

4

6

4~

C

1;

1'

4115

2.2A2"

94

~~~~~~~~~ -=,C~~fOt~ ~A~~ic ( I naot vuJcu 'vie are

~'zre ' zllcc cbixthe

tI~t on&--- o? i cu! o i Uce r tIn thh ol=n triaho ~ e

umic!. by'Q~ Shc m _ llt ig~ht, Bob"

~r~v *~'J v2c havo a apepreceenz. .3tf I thiinkc

Cl; to 'a tliat a a d,-)Ln !;heJob-nuon trI vats

Vb lln ;c ZW 3 ifaal ru .A3 f Lor Imoca.,dunwit trla War

2 t~v *7-j v ubo z;o! ro "L' ne Se a;zc re~arritl as &pp12..

cW~i ~ mfr~'73"~ ~u~ e~ xi~ThcIc o zare arlous

bo~~~~~~~~~~~~~~l Iz r.*.q.:u~ ~;~~o ici ~e~~~~ L'-1

I , 1,

2

3

4

17

io

Ir.o

2',

2S

be enterefA but if "he. Pezz-On

WP i flip hmxlt E311C. I be COMIC t,&f.1

Ul-,Oyt all by voluer, 04"' two-thlrda of the

So"It"k-ji:i u."Nal.l. PrCCCC,4 to Proncunce P;C18-

mctt C*-16 i , covy of ulch juntem.2-rA. r--haU be dopcsltW

I n 1-ho o." C of

.,aloca a quez lons in my millcl az;

L,-c.N tlac of l.apeachma-W;,

'i-Dtc-6 th- cc: 5c-;parata artic Les., aa 1 urtler-

ain"'! ri:: (,. luahan one aubtlivlolerq O 0,02C.11 one.

Vhv,16 a;% ulth rezp%-,Ct to whether a Con-

via, xii 1-c or more aulAlviavaa but mot

m3 to ,lc

Ec votle o.a any cue aegmant zan(A-- for

c;,.*t;',.c-',(*, hau.niae poLW;,c. Scmeoae avic-,,d f

ort each o"' the nine., aWt

... L U scc uo.td;.-- o;,% elGh , of thw ann w-onvicteeA oil aaev

I-VAIr.o lo;l ai; ).east i5 acparate Ilk-emo of

C, I I a vzr -1,7 inl 0 "A nc-a i.1% cAZa lfox, 40.vlalon aa,.al4 be vor"aed on.

ia It'.' :mLas;, tha Sem-tv :10

:3ul, :c, the prouent ralea, If ve d(JA

ricit i avrl profimiabLy 'that qu-wtion t-ma referred

vill-axe; they roulry *.:I?.A*ee that alv.,,.rjlOrL WOuld

F . ,

96

7 j Vb p:cc cicu ich jucigc to vote (to irutliTor ret.

,3 -- 1, J, f . .1 :o bc---,or-y "ht I~o n Awo Johim~ofl tril .-- n

I km uc .1 1 v tc trocdnp *,A, -"Mr. bc~ator,

snr~y.'eYo'ruI

S(-fa A nF3 6 ,ul y OcDushhi

~o i~.i~cIL rc i' tk~ntX1JJ~koit. I thln!C iiat i'erezagai~n

Ch' L;tho wclaltlS rut I(o

~ ::L~ocI~)m~ a nol .;czc votl , za JY ~ or na4y -

Ln obtiherahas Itim m y1yca .or nay?

2 Dr, iC2i 1 fo, 3-v-,ryona hasbeen [iilty or'not guitAy.

3 N."enator Crif fu 0 Ju. AIL ihc vay 1Jha'uzj1?

4 Dr, 9ircjir icTheoniy C erence ioe they acdc each lindi-

f5 viatrzi Son"-atjor zcatoyaer opposedc to tft- chair st;atinx the

(3C)Q~3Gotj~omo thtiV';jth3y woul(4 ;eer GuiltyT or not gi a1y.

ha . lt;ias icoen ic! .3 .riafjton.

o o~XrPCA.-,., DiWnot the razon i'o:7 the rmggpeste~iCltfhanze

ioc -Ycc~: .- i:ucnU tiiiosaving.-- oh, y a cearn nthe

r.,a~c ?0L~iiei; ' l( a reason 'Lor'i~

Dr. TIt 6c c. 1,e-c_, W,3'a vo cou~nsel. howed me here:

14n I A I c~n ho t;-iaJi o' Supreme Court Jutice 3amueL

SChazkc ;-1LO-, wo::ao e re'eepeefciLaly ciirectc to

1 G vooe 1 altT 'act Leiity, on each art.c~.e, a foxi tb~at.

in o-T-c-p Senae -a %? to,11,Tie uiLty or

not; QJiLtUJ y:'Lo.iriU aT_,the QpproprIate one 1i E:g-law, since the

;i~p;ch3loA ;.~o . jui-Tramatu of the floue af Loraiz could .*.1Lue

20 LIh Ocath pcwn.ity; il ri eto~lie, orfeiture, ar4

21 hc~wVy in L~T~.% .ox'ta ceoas3, to be eppropxialte, iowee,

~ 11~;hcn he .i crncA achaniwm iwae o"pt .nCi by the 1Amoriccx

-0 ~i~ to In 1787 but vM th an amnC Gnent that

~~~~~~i~~~fi ILic3te t:tio Lto onvric:1.on' t.o remnoval :fromn

c~2:'J~e ~.I Le u;I. cai~on .'xcoi [ a1:oL i~.ture £e(on-6. e.

9E3

Ti~a j~nItato~ ~ the VUzC softhe texrns lgui~ty' anw .riot

~~~~~~~~I ii.i'qntiyi 'ecai ot mic:ng, but b e 1 y-ea i

or riay'forn In thi> prescnI; 1,c,) i equalLy Ix ccurate az a

d eocriptloo thL iilion l ialteach Sciiator as judge m,11,

L3 rio. -ki~oiCi be 2irraz elL ao more acavraie, to cal

l or a voV-o to uetFl;l.ln or to 'rej'2etl the a £egatlon of the

,T CQU Ot com3c.;of Tho aQfly~i'JiiDof the rule s8umlted by

Scrnalt0;i Griffin, H:erel V-Zin,, I do -not see why we wallt

to c 'Ier1e the:'ULes ijn the mi i.l'ofthe lmpeacliment poroo ca-

'i2 I'l -on a oint Lito tillr.

:LtocZ 110t -On 1I 1ka a very gooa reaieon to me,

14 ocna i or Cnrxio,f iny furtherr 4icuBSIon on th*.?

I! S 6 c, m.to r Scot Not on that.

16 8 Se ra ,;orCanlaon, Re~xzton.

17 S a ior Scott , Thur r on the propoc4 rule, there La

~~~IM prvoo ox UO'3t;.oPnOf law andI f we have a dference in

10 aonwrolttoa raceca oto matter for amendment:

"If the ovi-,t ic~irco cni~1gtoment on any queo t loiaof'

£.l £a;, thc(ThJ J~C~~;ahaU .irnvite counsel for the managarzs

22 anc Jfor the rorpQoch2Lt, an~l may Invite attorney other tihan

23 ~rt~;lfo ~nyolf the partfea9, to evubmil; E316=1 briefs to

24 te (~v.t; o ~tch tCation. Tho Chief Jud'ea may permit Signled

?5 br iofN '- Oc bo ubi L ttcG by ;ouch persona ox wiany other Lega L

y

99

i~uc~i ~i~i~coxich may arise Intrhi~e coinwge ofthe

2 proccCiB3 0"A povi -onCor briefs 'would be 8ubmitte~l at any

3 in on tcciuostilfl of Lw.

4 : thJ~nk the K~ at,, 1.ont on this. It may be you can

5 tlo Mu- by c--omItt2(c cai

G S'raltor Vucnon, 1 hat aro- the precedents?

7 .c~tp ~~:~71. fpeopio want to 5ubi12it briefsi on qu2es-

U0%1 0,P vf~Laaa~~C -,;o 0a1ong--

~Zr. C~hyo,xwe have In th-at brief that I pre-

~ p:c~~qucsUon~ci Am'l -hon Wt--y obiit them.

P~iy ;ubi3~ UA:. ~tx ho argumnt~j of'both eZaiD have

Scr~Tlia 5.o -when It la '!AL through,, But you

ISmato: 'inc, QVCtAinof Lau? ries

.3tzr cci.Ai.Tbat alies ~as you Gare p2oeeWiing,

At a ce :xln .a, a quectlon of law Is ralicCl by a

~ ~1 tj ,ToChcS Jytco -iiz1he p n ehtenxt In the, fo=n

SOV brt.&'s aon a: Ofc'thosc who r 3U.pport It or oppose It.

2C) ihe0r Sr-iti3cc'toy-2or rc~porlent co1um'eL or mnaigexi,

- T ea cv j.n- ~w opcin 4--t L cnoment. There Is no present

~;: rro~.Lion th; ~o;.iL' h perralts the aubmikion of

viff a ~.~; :L~ havart of btiuc process,. 11LLvo

~'o~.~cioz :2o! w vcybocy can submit b2r.cfh at the begS~nn~ng

F

100

11 p*_.ovUJ.con i ;iic Vnz:!".Tie1Ci woriirc, rafttauthiao'zes the

3 3O'Cariozl., 1- V.azO ink the1C acoor half of i voe.

4The Cra-C iii- Imhave c )oszpcnC,. fRecess temporaril.

(Y~ircuroa ho~ rct e vacwtaken.)

oc. ~ ;fa-a Ca'nnon,i.-T ALSi hb, cotal-ewiU ome cto order,.

7 Lo~'z ono~ ; thc nc;a t t Le tmporar'lly. Senator S.'ott

ilil. be bc~.

9 ~C ~ aiiian2, I aee aaol j~qi.Atlon I ere

13l;% 3oaP2~ inothoTc quc otion that vouXo troubLe me with

14 U10 e ccl :is. cLhis vox~hagec: "The Court May thereupoln

~ onte J~n~ cworin-l~y: o*r It may order the proceedinlgs

iuciui', 6-ftjThC Ltlicohr fi-naiL uctJionehave a Iso been deterrniWea

17 In Wic, lao of LIxacaftant, in ~my JUcigent1, the Const;tu.-

t tIon .e.Tyr h &ha be remiovcsd upon impeachniont for ana convio-

~~~~~~o lznc~Wc~~10i coni'Uehe is roniov ~.He Is out, r gt

5. ao' I n -.1d t a iit

I (to :ic4; i.;hi U: Ltia rccrjoary for the Seina'4e to gae.z

22 1mA :-cutT~ acftic copy may be sentw down to the

Eo*" I ii; ois CQ inc we'ic tIG flve 20111-:, problemn Iif ve allow

*1 101

or&, o ahocul ant.]conzi~leC.

a ,,cj-,Or 1y-zj. 1RE;ht. lbMy go aheai 31and enter judgment

or .t wy nuy ic rc ccix-fetne~

4 Dai. I.(i6ickc. 'o laol~, that really prsents a proble.a

Ail!a very Gs*-nl::L"mt WthIngs; becauSe therc never hias bec- a'

G rcl(IeIj Thpccixz B. ut 1:7 that lai to be tho momecnt when

7I 'tha't vctc -):n-.L~ the ncx proposed Presidarlt Should be

9 ta~2.fl3'~IJ f aI )UA..GO In .Ca.3e of a CrIs..

~ i.~3.k8 ~c~ricyou have got to have a Coman~erIn-

~ C~ho~. ~±iion.AU. L~ht,. Dootor, Co you want--

, >~:"Clot .woJ for Who ,,artles shall .be

-, cPrpc;,-r zi bhcav.'Ciupon ai l "pachrent,

71TC~u lac boc.. "E'noalltzal.owoL0C'to accoipaiy the

IC monc:.;in lt~littelr case they aven allcel an FBI agent

17 O td'lle 2L h to the IYloolu,

'ic~~~ !.'r.t(:~ 3yc~ Givarman, I Lik1~e the pr~teft rule.

1 12o not 2J0-c hcit;-c r~~eton '"ancl may ivite attorneys other

0ha ?C~t2. c 2 c7ary Ofthe partics to U ant 1.nedbri.efs

2Ato -h C ol, Li~ch qu aon.

'M c ron.T inh: 2enaor Scct'*"i nedtuo Loo Gefcr on that untlL

25J

20

a *cnatoj OCanton. Tihoro hc Is) 11O1.

3 ~ ti zi;~yor thiau.

4 ;cn~o1'I3~r~i Itink )AYOU vot!W have the ABA,. Civi

5 ~b~Ic5' Uxxicll. III 11throcPeooPle o-pecting to be Invitea

C3 to bhart 1-i bvIc_- U you azL~jit.

7 Sellaitoi: LiLon, KChniracn, Iwascal .th~e Senate floor

£3 ~ n~i * ntz1'"o hcac z:'Q-i~t -,i;t,-o4.,

9 Ifhat~t5.on :7 (AiZL3iloI3. ta "here. with refoe-rne t~o

i10 3,t;.) rj c c 0(c)2 1Ol wizatalneCt or rejecoti

A 1ti r~. r~

12~ ~~~~~~ w0IO7Crj, n~hIch one?

2 2.c ,'ao 1,-. kI( tI0rA ta WQaN (. i a have a tl~issoyl

14 on It, an,5 ic a_,* ,0n1.Lgf3,if '-That wiq upportlng Senator ana±leLCP

IS propaficti cc-olut;ion -tuz rc l pointlnS ou'that I think t~hmtkey

115 rocecteQt-, ic v.11Jty or rviot *Suiitly plea that- was uac~Ii latLaLly9,

17 1iUliat crrc;

T5.LCCrq Y(L

ic -rThat I hasbeon uscZI throughout, has 1it

Illi 1I1 W ht? S

na~r~ Or~fsns-~u hre as w ou~ say11 th

"11c Pxi. I ntL, .tz inot xrl~ht, Mr. Chairman?

23 ~ cabo %ihQ~.,Th' ai3~a the cofluCf.uus aiough no objec-

103

ISonatc:v Camanon 9 Sonator Byra lhas just marle a comnt

SC 1natC A C t t 0 i0o1, up - t 1 L X oCi Ol ' that 1ena I

4 ho Is right about p iitin tratto--:,cys. I W tiiA wko;

5 cu~ht to 1).!o abi!o.GclT cc-.tai o:* 'tho tr'iaYproo cliUngo; this

6 or any Othtl 5aL, i o cLrquc.tUIons tvax'ant suppo-A.*-t

7 thiroughli 2X -cn~cC -back !to tAG cp* cctcnf3 tf3thaL the pacrt c.:3 ('-o

G tc p7ooc "Ltl3gou'W have a iLlht .o lnftorcirm brle'Cz

9 at ally tild--.

10 I tinrfcro7C a v~ e geGtinto my t ut hliAi oJufstic -

11 p oGccc3-.- I anree w~ ~haxt -Bob jurst sa 1. C 1 fI unr t o odI t,

12 that You; .Cio not .;an1V-evory orC-anizq-LG-on In America r.uohimZ In

1z to cubi'dt Iu-a2; u '1.-e- br 10Til iflanot a caL3c for a&deiue

14 cul: ic- ' T j c t cnc~v ~ i~tV: cIi~ h

10 ',;nt o cvi''tg~lht Q ;3. theoy *ouT.Q have in any

i:' OtIO7 92~zC-1.~2 C, C-..;VcDqY plcG,0ing : arid Coums3llfor thie

HlIx..ie c, u ;: ccu.:-.1y Lha'ie CvcrjyrXlt o have -any othar

j~~~~~~~~ 6Cv~iz~y ccJii~3 o not kno-v 2 Ithcr tae

zo ~t~dcr~:. w~ ~~th:; i~coverCd by pxcaent or wre~her we

22 vao c ~ ~~5von by coitucnt. Bu~t one 0othter

Scoumse -. In other oris in nect.rly ovary instance thLe re-

24s OPOflcenft hadi th'J7OC; s)OUr? f£'ve cO-LWeL TBut If theY iialrxteO

Sa3ditiorml aT7ox-t h hve yotxi, "that wias by coit.ent of thei

1024

2Sonator Cco'. I m not ta2Acing bu m~

u4C-4 aa u t s to

5 ~i0 ~r 'sCo 5 rau* alinz ~abcvt a i~lbua'ion, we arec

6 ten 0ays Int~o a trial, a point of' J.av la raiac,4by a. Serwbor

7 beCC(u,,c 'Thef caa raioe either poixfofo 2act or pol.n1e oi

a al -.P01.Iit of Ia.?Is raised by a Senator.

9 The proolding offiicer taken the poolI~on that he u;LL s~bs"

10 Mit the dctrinatlon -~te point of Lav to tho Smate. Some

11 of the Scntor~a are not LWiyercs. Others lhave haCI no time to

12 thn coi tf o --i,-- ~hap,) 2ra thelr I n v 0L vAelpoint o2 0 af

I'S ~Ccun~cY.-fm-, te z'cep 'rcfrii;or coun3CIL fox, the mz-agere

I1Ak C-11 Th'a 2t 3 hof IUZ UC o zarlJ thtLluthey womiLUL ike to

~ hrvc pr .xI~c, cnzen'. o eub ,Vt ibrio-'2sanU -ask thile

~j QczLW U,.~'2c7 bc Cioi-crcL 2o, say one ulat, int1 they

10 '-t s cn -Lt lar, in c talotatithe kLicl 0:Vpcnrmfli1Fon ve

109 a uWa i c ,-I 2e:.

Fol'nt ol Law Is Cicci~iccl withot'.t an~y 1nowvLc~igc on the ''-

21 part of tho exiunate as to what are the Iriplicat Iona of' the

2.1 point 0-11"Lw 1

23 ~D. 1 RlcIick. I wac3 on this f£if teenth anLI did not hear

p.4 you. an the :ctone.

00c1ator 3' cot-. YCc3.

105

D r. Riddic[C. Sorry. Here, Is lie point I have -in the

a2Xlittleo brief ta I preparedly previously. BrIoefo are not

3 oubmitt-cd until after the niagers aiO thfe counsel for the

4 respondent have fLaclo their opening statement and have Intro-

5 ducW. vltii eocs.- O;7ce Duch bz'Icls have been 2C1iLccl, taoyare

G prntedin-te rccoM Ei£- the lmm~clate uoc of the Sonatora,

7 Ln the tri aL o.". Robert 14. Iohlall, the oe:i3K

8 or~Cr wca Mopec(! Tor ' tat pvrpoue: Order What znwli briefs

9 ana citt~ton.,j of cuhorItIeS as have aircaCly boon proparea

10 by the x naLc-:re en the opart kjof the IHotuoo 4=3 coiscL. for the

11 rezPor0nU- bc IUcc,,i xith~thoe Scrctary irid printed in It-he

j~recolCI for the :icdaeuro Ofthe SonoI"torz3.

T-t thio docis not covoe y our In o~iieG aI'm- - ixftorveigfl~

z pr.oblc ,,.birAU I thirz.c In cvc'_;y isac;an IC n'tloacU here

J!3to CcullseCL jut e i~ocnnt ag'o, it Cou(1bc that that was taken

13 care oj- I aii u-.ro It waa takcn care of in cach instance by

17 Wien or sn202'Going Into c~osed aeslon aril arguing It out.

is But it eoiWbe ooting 2Lilco that coula be put In, '

S~iJorcott.'G find I have IIn I 11fsae0110t Il P_";lIke thiS,

2o w lcr e veor i is.a nri t lhai u' ch is Leren ta I or a ULl110o rLXa .

j brIef;3 iv ybe cLAc at the optioa of the o-rticac.owycerned,

2_-2 '-Iif.te at o ie t'he bei's too, gat to this

Dr. YU6iddic'1:. That icuiW rmke It cLearer. i3C I-O toUt, Th- at couLdI be done by amentimont,, it could*

F

106

Ibe done by coverinG, It In a iegIsLative history which is

2 necceecry -- or it coulCi be Gione by havinr, teaccimittee

3 recom-dend euch a trlaL ox'ficr Colol;. the general. form,. I thinrc

4It Is3 up to the coi.uattee here to Occide howu they ,want to

S pur~uc t

T hc r.I-iht to f JL I I 3'c r Inb r I c 3o u itto be c c c

7 be.CLorc wo ge L n L 3c) vcs60we cY~one ieetha'eox' orou'vr c"a

Senator an, You m~occe ne poin-tthe that Is rather

< 0 Into*roctWLiwhenmraou rsC'Lldoven in [the event 'th1e0$Snators

ii antccl to r eab ,Ic

1 ao not enViiase the Senntore ectirs either az a Prose-

Scutov or a 6cj*-cn:3e ounso-f. If~ they are goixG to act au

14 jur2ore, 1 wouXl1 tink the last thlns ,In the worW 0 they would

15 vant to do is have the bright to prcosnt a brief' on that, v

13 either as UivOCcalg n,,rone posi*V*ion or another.

17 4]atr couttg ifeuICAnot have to. WUhat I a~contemplatin

IG Isec~z -,- o ali. n g itcLa rulco, wvo may come to a point where...

~ ths i~ Te :c~ezn Iz ~eetC~t, the point was the Senate

~ e.;,The i uiLl. ret(ain counseLifox, the Senate; thI-at- has to

S be Lo m3 U iit ot. 29'-Ioya? T;herrc have been counseL retained

22 i'c 1c' hL-o n Ov:1cof ' hese proced~injQS?

2.3 I~~u~c{: ~6o notu-bcieve --o.

Seja tor0S1- tT,.1 uh there was.

25r 11idffliek. 1 0 o not betleve so,. I thirk it was just

p

107

2Semtor GrIJ'.f Cin. For 'tizat purpose woui~t that be-?

3 Senator S60t. For the purpo~a of protectlvng the interest

4 of the senetorn Ill czasea Senatoar ask for C Srfie1 ionofL

5 Point 1.71,U10011;"71ilins kotoe eCoil onthliz!0Ce Of either the

6 -,rf3pS)OnCflt o:..,tWC O~g~ n Lthe10part of the IHOUOs, the-1

7 enteo:-. it --luid. vait to 1kno,.

0 Seato e:.iffNilWy x oulI W th to eicicz not argu'Le It

9 out?

10 Dr, RIU(41ctc. HeI coulUi submit question.9s, the Senator could

11 svbit written quealti'ons to get hi2 answer,, T shouW think.

12 But tey have nover,. as far as I know, ha~l a representative at

IS any time.

14 SQenat-or Scott. Then thio question COoea not arise In

15 your opinion unLeso we softul~cl ecirie to come ctlown on the side

I1G of c ouns cL fo r 'th11Pr esla cnt, latter propose a Ll. hre.

17 The crecs of tis t ouW certainly be covca (lIn cone way

1 -vgzojtre ay- It cou.id be covereci, one by aeri~meit'

P_00 to he 1, * iALCi).7 acmiittc suggestion that bthe entire

21 x .o fr:;e ollow, thC generaL. form of suzbmtt-ing briefs at the

2b".nn i ad ntI a intorlm or Iing,~ briefs at the opt-ion

P2 o1 counsi-el 1for the Intuerestelparties.

24 1When :1 Got Into the question of concern fLor this Involv~nZ

25 Senatcors,, we got to this iiscussion,

108

30 1Ua kw e ought t o ma Ic some ef ort t 1Ao I Ic t e t ha t

2 brlcf o can be f L cc at any rat~ic f aecd

31 -iLO. not 1cayInG thcre,, hao to be a :culc In the amnft~ent.

4S c i-t o r GCf 1"in. Just thli),7,n outlouG here, viouNa It not

5Cievolop UIlc th'a- that a question. wouL6 ariso, either before

t3thc- Chi. 2 J11" oru~cz ox, aiftcrhe ricz., or'bei'Co cthe appeal

7 1s . tcC),, c P C)' to 'o into 0em:ccutI ve asc2so on nrI ake a mot ioz

~ pc.~~ioc I'-kA; thi to'be pul-Io-icx foa: 211 houro anU have time

9 f~or b~~ht3 "be pz'cax'ccl?

10 X- mc:',n, thiazt xiou4Ca be,, hen a priority wouii cl lcloc v fhe-

11 tlier'U-to ci c thnat a no 'U, laisit your thio-ght thera vouicl be

12 ~O~iO ~n~aie 2i1it fo4? a paricu~Ltar perj~oa oftimc?

1.3 Scnator cot :r. I o not conaelve an automatic

IL t.LnitheS-,ato ii'nicght Cieci~le notu to Clc'!or It. But I

can on-cive ,,n cautonieticr11- r g a'antcccl In ecivaiiccto

17 a"roni V*,)totho . ne1rson the p-rrt of the I-ouse to,

~ L~ ppo:~rteibx'ie:L's or aLIW.tlonal. brief fro 'oU ine to

LcrI~: t'xxn.WCoUL, but alitor the question %ias already

2. Gc* cc:? The cr'c, ioj- at caie point or thec other elther by

22. tho Chic.X.Rztc or by the-

23 SenatUor Scottu- I kincl o.- contemplate thie situation as I

24 saa dbrJforc,. you are In thc tenth Llay of' the trial. Senators

25 sUbit theIr question ofIaw. One of the partiLes In thla

109

1 adver~ary prococillrir; ha;3 pormislon to file a brioi'. The

2Sonatie by £aja~jotyr vo Ccan Gcn..Tho 2onatc by Occloon

3 poihapol not by Ymajorlity votec but ileciolon, gao inlto cioseal

4 zonoion alit:,iec t Or tli Senate a,-,vcc2 t'o O-f- it unti2.

6Scnato:' L riUi X CtMMnic tic can d.o that,.iFor the purpose-

7 for -My pur pocC incLu,,,UnL the parpoise of havigtile parties

Senator Dyr6,. IMr. Cliairman1 If the parliamnearian

lo ha s no t I x non ti opo Int. v 111i I ,,elt t o ItLa ter I wonder'

11 if YMr. Colaria er any ol' the people from the Library, of Congress

I12_cout(~i a~ riy r oujgstlono on Uthis?

13 Vi. Tho*ri-ton. 3';Iiei iar-1fiicci by thw e pownrUntobjecting

A oll j .(;ono tZ t "he Seratc, becaimee

Se~~tc2 B:~'~ ~o~x~iyou i3etani anci re:peat that?

~ *± w~::~tz. W hae tmy~cCIpac itnc~but in.1the

r, 0eV :I [--20C ''iSe.'U-r11 waaProt C a2iU I t .Dk was in the

jj :o.-'. 2a bl%:L, X t 'Uo the Juxis~ictio-n of' thcSenate, and the

io '2cr.t cdn5&C'ad.tbut ii Coc, it Is t icOonly Wthixr'r le

2,) have hndfuikyhcrc- "that scerrm to rcLatz, to this Issue t'

22 ~Senato~. ' cobt pointcam out Whis Is In the nature of' an

3 atlvrsary p occcainc. and it 1, 3 6QneralLy lef't up to the parbles

24 to presentu thec uostions InvoLve6 on both sidas. You malce

Your eaco; 110ma 1"hisC"100-,Ia-0 tilejudcI o (-Acidks 1.ho ldtile

X2.:

110

Job.

Senator Scott, Co~uid vc no' covor tis in za coit-tee

report?

ILoyci has referre(I to a quezition th4at he goes a MitLe

furLther anO1 says prccedent has bdan to 12sue trIaL orders

covered on fillng the briefs. This shaUt refer aito to MC~I-

tionaJ. or supple mntary or aCCtonaL briefs.

I think If 11e mention Lthat, It mould heLP Us to rake

nomae deciolons,

Sonator B3yrdI. Mr. ChaIrman, would you objct to a request

that the tLibrary of Co ),rea reprezentatIves hecre prepare

a 1,~i oduil tthaf;for the o 0rittoo Vr Its U.c at su"Ch

;~n'crLcotK JU richt, eshthent om Uodo the same thinso

bthong on bx (f C), sta-:cmo~nt oif Scnators, where the

wore ~~dgf ns-co6 olf Senatozrs -- noxt paege. '1h11z s a

bekfro,, , the present procedurs, This is contemplated that

pre rmabiy, In reference to what haa gone before, It seems

to apply to oubscclion Co),. questions of lav, puts In

capital. Porrato Senators to ipake statements not to exceed~--

no, it Ira hroaclor than that, permits Senatora generaL~y atti

organZation of tUh.- court, opening of the urialt, to malce state,-

micntcnot tooc i thre L innesanci not to ce",cufiv

ri.,inu1Jcs on quc;-,Uon othfcr thlanl a final. qucution alnd not to

I

33 1

3

6

7

9

10

13

14

15

16

17

is

19

20

21

22

P23

excceei ten mirratco on ii Cir.i question unlosrn the Scnnte

otherwise orileo; or court otherwise provided, upon recoin-

mozdiation ol"'t-c f Loor £aa(Iro.

ND-ti, I ami cttng ,ofI2 course, a Uiti. weary of anything

that io too mu.ch lI errogation O.SC Pesicling &I'icexr, but It

DeODIB to m^- that. this Is ipztn enough *L'or u3 to all give-

some thought to it beoor we getoU doum to Wthe point of actuaL-

becauoe ray own £'coiing, here Is yoiur iret OPPO~t.t'Uaty 'to

permit Senatorq to be heard other thain bhe-LIr £'ixa tatenient

or othic3x' tail clocG ssaion.

Pn3theCr i,,; timt Itt akers a. onEor time 112 cvoz'y Scim~tor

has n., imt; to '2cbalte any quo;,stion other t tho i£final

qucs -. on.

Ol thd o 0 .1her h- ,arnr!i,'tU-11,0, taSenatec andproccecing

over eanC; abovc ta-.icocuc.'tion o2the stbriaeion o2 I t ten

qu cri "05. oil

-J~ubxit it %Aith boith pros and 00X12 occurrooc to mie a9

SOMeCU1w1-icnw1-u,0 oao.i ourvn.1szes on 2.omlay for thir

rerat!lcn.

&at or :,3y:.C,, Mr. Chairmn.

Arc, You 'thlrotc-ft?

Senator Sccott,. Yes.

ocnatoz' yrd Mavy1 juot rnale ray co-mment at Whis time

1] wouJ.CI opzc Ile wouJ.Ci not allow oral aa cmiioby Sonators,

eustic hvc 13 ic hy wil!not achlieve thire i m1nutes

.04

o4

.1 7

112

I On^- i cI ato73 Lat throe xraliucs each a nQ thJIe y -wou Ld

2 all takoc Uir tharcc nintci -- thlat vloulcIbe Ilvo hoUire.

3 _Tho ccoC 110'place, thi 1,,,, thc niot eolermrioccaclon, that

4 1 can CO12h~liIrL COnafCe'uiJCfl ithour Contitutional rulao,

I thinic tile Leiov5isible ,,;cWrc iflar ao trak'-yak~cnZ i7

6 concerned., the cbetteU-r imprectili-i the peop1.e are So~nSg to have

7 of 'this ~whoiethng

0 ~Secondly, I Cto not dsagr'ee with what Sonator Scott ha.

s aid In one respect; I dio believe that; wtiexit gets d~oifl t;o L~

10 both .due:3 closlnC their argunaents, and Senate moas into oLose4

vi senolion to 01, ctwo thie kind of qucztion, I doc not think the

12 Sentator ishot'Llbc, liniited lto J een mml32t -- Senate

S majorir, u*1,,anL:,',mii.-consecnt - :Ean, not oo concomecd abou theb

f I L --n 1idlua t ci c te inai cuest-Ion.

3 J'l L," i-len c I t'Sa!.--C t ha"-t .1ist warticT., it Is

cii. i. to C no 22:As and z jcator CIf3PLO 'or -a.(division,

0P U ,i!i iic ~ wohve, as C r±ie nd L5 In1te

dC~AY.Ci;~c ~ha oL~ t nMicothe hoTe do. bcratof ~the finaL

UG t~.n $c~%,k;ouhtLo ave senme ULtLe timae on anY

S ques1-on other i7than tiae final question ar3 long a anyqv ea-

22 tion 1i of~o to thoElfnaL discussion of' any article or a 1-y

charge ithnany atce

I do not tjhinkc that w-e ought Lo open It up to five mintes

25 on any question. Tfhia iould rmean on any InterlocuLtory quostlon

113

.1 any Intervoning qu-stiori that coinxs up, any question cmann

2 up a t any poir.t, tat if" un~ioretand the phra scology here, an k

3 *eriatorz couCN spcoll, noU toxezccl five nudt(3. That woul~l

4'. provide the toophol-c f1or cateec~l .61zctusion.

5 2enator' Gi.X1iu. Beb; couid X got a cl~naril ca 'L-; on?

0Senator By :d, Yec.

7 -2 I ce to m tat'1" aciartS~leeI

8 Oiviaible, that- the vote on each charge within the article

9 woulcl be the ftinai queotlon. Othevw~se tihat Is the finaYL

10 question, I askc you,, Dr. Riadick?

Dr. Rlick~. WeKI, the ic flia.qucatlon Inciules all the

12 artlclc3 o2 inpaeaLnt

13 c~iterGyr1,Each onoeL-3 a firnaT. qetioni?

r 1 atoC) Ej, ach oar aic a rL question?

D', :RiCiUci~~liTliey on-Ly aiio1oj- one £LJ.tcrralinjtea on everS-

17 tista CC CZ.

18 S~cnltox- CJffin. WTo matter how artoicri-

19 Dr. cRWO.ck. 1'If teen mrt;atoher'e alW'.zc s~haU be for

Withe~hole dciobratilon on the final question ari not on the

ai iinal question on each artlcie of impeachment.

22 ~Senator Scott. Cn that ie may have vIcwa0 I agree ith

23Bob at least to the iegreee earlier rialid en the rb~llvislson

24 OfflllaL ue3io.I Ltilnlcpevihaps 1am 1 incLe towqard1 some

25 0Senatora 3 c;:ecP t aSit the. re 1L1Le d imllcr the ihole time, I

u14

1 stUopcct eoraie other Senators fieel that way, ehrefoxre -we rmight

2 Wantbto ofer the:-li later.. However, we woild get a better

3 jucqgment o~f that anal I rccq.ast , accorklinG-ly, that this comimt-

4 Lee ask the opinion of qt o.Senate witrnesjoes onsao 'Vc gt-

5 ~~Senator Byrd. lWecert-(ainly want. theIr.m. .Won, but.- If

6 we are going to weigh -- but those of' uz. who have *uatccl

7 over this SLo xonthe as some of' us have alrcaay done$ anW

~3 who have uu~icG the p ececnb.,3ana tsee the (fankger oQ lettling

9 a Senat-or have .*i"ve minutes on any question that came up.. we

10 would hopo nci wci-lht given wouia be gIven to every oplilion,

11 Scnater ,Scot'6. I src but 1 think each Senator has

12 grot to bo given Cn opportwuJlty UP hocoeks 16 it to sp eak a W to

13 pgive ao zIucih - ;co-ght to 'lphie cciciorn a"-c ho tink trzi-cleserves

14 rahrthlan ~~ h~1 tCcev

1G r~m u~oil.Thocc-eca~elfs willgo intuo closc Cl eSTsin

17 to G .acquen n voiiZ none icnter;.0cutory quest Ion

10 ancl every Scnltor, iU he can speak for five inmuutez, you have

10 .f[lve hiu.klrcei n inTet.icthere.

2-0 T IUhve five niin'ju .t.,,,~ay not uee thc~i.

21 Senato.r Sott. WoLL., Just iake tis coanicnt ;on , Bob,

22 because -J.au inot contesjtinrj, 1aiiitrying ;to fincI -

23 SC11"l to7n iyrcta CZ

24IC '- E o gctt ach ofus 110k;hao "srvc~l sevoral PerIOrjIrj

25 ~ h ~;,Do o-l u~j ha til VU tt t a ha yet to

3

4

7.

6

9

10

15

16

17

is

19

20

21

Senat-'Or iyr" .YOu 2"Y e-N.Plalinthe inoist Itpotiat vote.I

amn for their having iome ad(Iitional . tiracover f if teen a Imiten

to discuokn thooc aru'.Weteo But 1 a taL!-:inrabout the jintcr-

V," n j qucz0-ticnzs that rmay C LCne P from '-0 to a.

If 1-7 aciopt Wthic ph' 'O-colorrY, ea1-1c ! cter ay haefive ninubes

onI anytix~g

ScdjcatOr L -V. O hveti.oe ar to i2.e, 0o we nob?

Tho pnuQo tilv Seiate ti~rec rmnutCo to c pari acli mal

Ox P 1a 111 to 1 A. ; c-, Ico mlt it ucnto 1hercin JUQgiwnL. oil the Presidel

arid h c hovJlc!u thWIC.rcoponsibility. Thatl"-certaiLnly wozth

tho pubf.cX ; iF110,

Then ho has into-rim one oix -;hiLch you. raliae thie question,

Wihohe as the iiaJ. rie n w~ hich lie iias to vlrtiuaXiy meet

1s M~.aker while he 12ctiii alive,

Scxxo:r 2yrd. XFiiaL one.a

'"mator: Scott . L-1,1 pass it, but I Wiinlc we ought to ask

W10O mother 3cnatuoro.

DR RiGaick, Aind the Beik-ap casee 1 boLleve it wc-e they

aXQc;c acli Soiiator once minute t -o exploain hXz votec whiLe the

yeVotou- t~ci

Scmiator' 3jyrai, Opea 2couljon,

115

come,~ To deny Scnator& five mintes ao to dl39ur3a the most

Wmvottaitther httoirY 13 not -- we have 6iacuasc

for five hiours juheth,,Or or no" to put a DseWage plant in a nialL

Ra

Not

y I I

.I-

I

ISerater Scott. Well, some people -theIcr whole career

a will depend on thii3 vote, or at last they think Bo. lu

I I n Layer of Ziving ti-ea some- right to explicate

4 their probLemn to their eon tltuenta,

5 Dr, RIE~ick. XXIV*."ALL1 the or~erz flCna eal~islz

6 uhaUl be iua-cl...,wil-ixout OeUbatc, ztibject,. hovover, to the

7 Operation of 1-ulo V1., except - wihon Wthe looro haLL bC cLosed

8 Ifor Oiiert xo , anin ha a';caosc rnomomber shall speakc more

0 than once on on.- quostAon, aricler not raora than boen minutes

10 "-a n interLoutory cfauen.Ion~aa f or inot more than ~:i:?,tcon

I1I ninutco on tLi lna- quoting, uniczby concenat eif the Senate;

12 to be hal ,..5thou,~t Clebate; butu a motion to aCjotxrn may be

13 dcctdcdi ,0thout the ycas wa nays, unLesis they be nemnCler

14 by ono-I.Cth aoLth e mb,..rs prceent. The fiflteen minutes

15 hcrein allowdi hall be for the whole (Aeliberations on the flnaL

16 question, eand notv on the £iiiaL question on each avticte

17 of Impeacin-cnL%"

10 1"0 11haVe Lxlc~Ciydioc3CL1 ' that.

19 ~ a 1 qa il, uezstIon 14,o b put'5

20 ~Ji .-,., or oc;cr aoin or orer (cccpt a motion to 7

S aCijouion),, it zhaijl be rccuced to witnana put by the

2Z, C oz: -G1is 0 22.c

2aThat 0. -aq~utinAB they have don.-iIn sevoral In-

24 2tances, T. do noU know whether you want to conoi~ier that.

25. The chiair hac ,C.rccted thei clerl: or the rcadOI4n, clerkc to rea4

p

117

Ithaeee quoatlonB an oppooci2 to th~e presiXtng offioor rea-ding

th1em, aM I was wonclerlrg If' you iaxftec l tat; to be aitowiod,

3 the question to be put by the pres.iing officer, clerk having

4 been directetl o read it?

0 direction ofi' theprcol~ilrir officers.

7 Dr-. Ritick.You lcnowx when WO g01 an oiNajx' "udor the

8 closure, fox' ccuip'Le;, 't Rle XX2:I p-Lovla.ez tha1tthe presLilmi

9 offloocr eha-in read the nmotlon 'thexi presented, IAncl every time

10 the ch-air has. to ztate iiithout objection., the cleric wil

12 report tho nictioxi.

12 1:ta u one5sa if'you. aia cQ oanatioxi that.

13 Seniator PoLL. Doca the preent rule say Lt shouIW be

14 the rcti~o'.ie'

15 Shou tkh quzjoiione bo attrlbtoct to Individuval senators

.16 o'r not?

27 Dr., R1UC~C'I aec~uuac the Scxliator sbx ~eanL1o~n t

S andi iM.- 'v't iouICI be Sonal,;e'ion,,-,,)wishe to inquire of~

23Sona'tor Pe~li0 Tim ruic11t; 2:Uent oi-ithat.

22 Dr. l i~cThat j" lofi~tt.

22 1C .crQi 2n thinkc it twouW b.bebettor U' the clerk

?- readt It, Then thcire 1c no po ilblllty that the Ohici' Justice

24 wI Il, by a tone in fi~e voice or anythinrz -It u'lt be, pre-

25 suriably., a rcCW.n; clork, That icS his Job, INo t -hat he oud

F I

bu tujust>-

2 Sc-nator XPcU. 1 come back- to the thing. unloos there

3i6'tUlirl roaaon to chaniot-rhe rtic--

4 Seni'.or ,rifiin. ,8P 1 )urnerotand It3 IX mcanthat Is the

waicy Uhey hvav on celdoin.Sit.

6 Sator P--11 117o; no. fA2 o:L'"*nwvi Uzhaii b,--produacta

Sin iir2tir-S by 'th-c prc-si1dir~o offcors

Dr. RiCWlck, Dxotthe clierkcrca4 the quetion for

10 hilm Y0..OUcce,

11 Soruto L.,PoIY.L I ec. I aran ry

12 Sena~boC 33y&{t So If that is amio!

S anator 'Caniora. That Io ,apl.e 9pececient Thle Langage

~ RiiG~~:,You have haij a p*--cce~ent, but I bolaYevo

thre has ~ i)Jo~contonri-Lon at one t1ic,, And uOhave

17 hai00:CwriiC02znO.~~tcX'c wehatve hadIthe SCflL-abors

~ a.i~"o mo'-h- q ci3 son ol-aly.

10 Te~ ~ il :thialc ire oullInot bc .

20 ~ e~o~Lc~ 1.1r, Chailan. X hope we can write intuo o

ruli~es, 1int'o tilo coni~ittoo report aocompanyinv, the ru~es . the

SSoneral.1 rn the urivtten r'ule huie, the motion

S to &Cijourn Is rcsCrvccl for leaatrehip. In aa Impeachment

trial.,, t is goli-iQ to be the e sc~re arn intc-nt of thec

~ .ea~orehi toxp~cedlthithin3, anQ bo fair. I think that

I r131tj oe or

4 r ~~Ci~~: 1C Ticl~~"Td~~ o:' wr~y Lipeachm~ent

V3- ~ . C.) r, . - .1 CCiil (;t O Lf tmclvc O P e r 'i3 t~o

iC:..C oIdcco zn*-' 'UaL-2c DLLn imonly at- h times aanCi%

7'hc Oc p )Cllluc~ ~i a7tkio chla~.n therocpto0 beV

01. c c c 1),b*U, C. c,. uK c . inLcQu3 c~leafi~e wonred

v C C c ,,:.lScr-t :11 o the P:-- eSLc411g Officer of' the

or... nK c Y.;, ncler the rutles3 of pr'ocedure andi prac-

ic .n Wn o c n,1 t i;lcn i Urinwgox~in hp ac.i'm~cttri.als.

'Un.c;2 oAi:rw:uc 2Ic-2cLu Ortho Sci te, t rz e5 o' pro-

111, c' '51i~ whm . 1nSo n ,Lipeacmen

' 3C --0 imttcozonppolly Cc(11AiL r xeport to

0 u ,7 4. a ~~c6 copy cS. 1io Wnaie pt oi'

0 1 , jC ; n~o ~n6it; i~arJ c~aM G~vefLnbellore ouci7L comi--

~~C r~~C, ~V ru - I ;2Cpor'b Pliall ')P-xcceicAdby t he Senate aircl

'Ulicm cv-21cinc c ; <C ~C~v e!Ji a,( thce ewmoiiy so telcen Shal.1 be

23 ons3.6L. a t;~; ern, P.,a r.pu rp o se z fbj ct to ;e~2Ih

24 '-o 1erOC ctc rmirnc.,competency, r L'Zvaney, anCl MatesI'.

J." t-y iIdl bl~C-n -rcrc."vrCI anr1 1tak~eni bc-oX the Siiac-

1 120

~ut ~ sa~ip.*coven~t te Sc at.. ifroriBel<l nS

C V~r~ 2C c ro~h.s te",timmny in open- Scn2ata, or.

by oaWIer ul' -rbC 2O~znttre r

oil't G! an e v ht ben til. C in cenl

j. i~3 a 2oil 1ji c b:z c:1

8eatc~7 ~o i~c:~. I caii ,c,,othin teig -at ilta~o

~~ i c c ca;: f' -a I~ntor Vico ?resiXaet.

Sca,t;o, EYet. .1iy zv sbison t*oulXd be-ve atriiw o o -thf~

i ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ wcv, i'~Clif>2i :eQ It amyst~e c Wie je-...eAa j. d beK-

I 's~ca .1" ~;c >3 -cntc-n.cc c,: "two coal.a be zwofui4 . P erlap13

-Yo,j k? E) 11*2n ' 1-oc: c-e for any pur'pose t%e

~; cormn.- toc t~ ~vi~b~o takecj ioi~al tes tim.01ny "what ever

b~ and' ~c& & aXiicnc2~ prpciefi abject to thi e ight

ofo ~~ b C.DAO ~ o ~L~compctoiaoy, rce:varioy a alf-a , ;ex I

~ a~itycxzh~L~ ~c:'.r~o~vCiarD takten beffore the Sea .,e, but

z: nothira- ac-rcin f-Cmup iven$t tke Senate famfi~~8ni;~or ,ary

1 n C si %3,Uvriion W open Seraise, or by o:~er

o'. t~ c:ie ~ TaC~~' T'~ .i pz c~io Lizave

ThtF:~C~ i..~ :'"n >what tho - Sc.- te a~xczuiv*ha3

F

I /Opk1c -,r to apXn; i z.C oc onrnttee 4"or anaaa hoc iurposet

2 o~ rio a to vil_ tC itb- xl,bult they cau Lt So

4 I c-L-_aYo-.%C34.rmolv 1 ,cu',W i.ot Iik.2nk iu woulQ be iarault~o

oaa t~~.or A fI cn, j: wioUt notcd x he

7 1 i~;rQ~~~ coulil concelve o." It bcinx-'- i. the

o 1 8e im t c b' ll3i c,,l lo'li of' other iiapo:Mtant voicaild you. Iie4

!D 'elmc. llz;.~~ c2rior elcral. Off.cJay. or 13lothl lz Y a

w('1110 x~cc~ nevhi : a t oC0 . nte.peO

Pr cE.4 - o r V,i c .2 r c L

L~ ~ cto )U I.x.vo,3omethi iIn the .. U I Q~ 2L zve

17 0,11 ULC~tOC bWb The rul~es3 co imb poviwe for it.

el IP.611:h3 r.Ue 41§i(l. prCJvi(ThIfor ?it; ther :you do o ;b have to

.,,)r ,1 i(, r Lli jm n

20wl , o~7C (.U-' e (o the c;*cn moitbeaiof twelvie; make omue

rollm-11cm,c tco ,ho k.act I -.'neat~e, #Semite wnj. appoint an ad b oo

43I 21.) t~?;co~ Sue'c0 co1ittee or co~iuWibeusf3,~ ;cr ;;o ~1hor, n teef' rpu ,,o osc,3 T Lab i .Laa

:ScrK2~or~cc -Ainy cfticc ciltec or Snatuo?

~ Scm-;.icr G-ri "JLui., 1X o J~co.naeelvo o'a stXuati:on i ore

3 c -iimc -! i ic 1-71. in WTchoopitai Qcmoihore amd l oi.aIMtnci

ic4 ac 1) 1 e .gpc-:c tic iteC~ alo tey want to fecin'la com

S~O.--tor 1yra(. LfJco O~.Son- UiO On Occasion hi,,eappoited

7 an a~l hoc cUit~ o -, c-arcki tho ruiio aaaI preccon ono right i v

W-i the nIc WC tha ti;l I.1I th2atrigki?

S Dr' i~-~X~, .91r.

'~ I $ana1tor 'ScoIt. roImL~ ai? in~, occurs In the iii3 le of' a

fJ, a~r-(. ; B:~ aldoilOP1'i1oe

3 ~ Dr. RZOUR Icc c. noxtone ID eoacocrner3 with f orin

Yla- oXCV: "AU .pvococs WiLU be servedI by tic, Sergcai

r1:3 vac) 3cixc-, o t~her-dioo oaoidere(A by thie court,"

I '?h02Yc-c fllvo (fob 2orr,.z of' Funimono, :i'orm of' pracept

'i3~BY ruoru3y&. ' l-: niiorxe You io igau?

3 1 1 1, t V141b.~, I~c ~ old. cppocItl Watc,

"Upon iullanaonof' artolou of' impeacluent ane; the

22 rai-,Uzc. of !hhc ec~eai~rci £oc PmvXdcfi 0,c'. of

22A T. 1.~~h ,,oo athe accuse ca rec I W.ng crid Aar t ic lez:

24 ~ j. c) .'%a h~tooppcar ief'ore the Sorm'te upon a day an~t

a piroccto i'c by ilo c-iain~ie 5.n o;-ciwrit,

3.23

to rt a nct a Jc .1ic, orcr3 ai,4ji gmmtsof -U'Thc;o na

3 hoi oon.; -which wr'iA -;3 haLI I b - uc~r,7: by j1zcih ol'ier or person

ac i ~ c. :v h 'c Prcccpt orea, cmah 1,1miiber of1 clay~s

111i L i~uc -m1ocp cL7*;iic,,by tivicdlvcry .Uan attezstcC1 copy

3 be aom2,b~ry ccOv X~g u.chicopy ctt bt-le I3arzitkrxum place of abode

9 of' Guch p (~c -(,,: U is i-aaL.place of buiniz.a iii zoxae c6.

'!O wACUm.U3 gacc t zx VLw oi7 JAf cact i brvice, BI'mU be, In Vhe

UO 'Pro -iiib~ ~;ve:~n in wch other iaaereby publiaa--

P, &''CL 3 al st aMcI :Cai. 0o,-l cvlce In~ntie1'awyler ajiorepadc1th

i~ Ip~'~cCi~if; 3a~J-I(:"- bh o?y abate, btt frlher 2orviwce may

S - i, a'- rc D~ ob has re k ~to ccml e~ii

t) ocaL rlL 1k3--z t01nC:: 2aCC; , i ,03pciant Or 111iDcouxiweL ifollowlJ.fl

apiCw1 C(vl'11h 1vzi bcn gxS~er.1acClto hini by ithe Senate.

13;oca th1J.c* app Yy Lo both of thAopc procejsw sor' no?

OcmI-2(O 12 Y XC. Ya , a9pp.c101 oboh

R Z13 " ~c~.Doc~~ii ot ay so.

-***~*~ASpeakm of' :ujx iozm, S3iutonzr oes not occur.,

'Li th-z, FJThr:D4oil J~ I w -az, or(Iexc~lon I.cl h6 st~on

124

6

A.

33

4

C

IL

o

91

I*~ *~ Ii

14

1&' I~'13

2')

p'2 )

'I

6,,;*-h 6.;tic: -::d.~crc* to Lappear' the tlirutocntl., one week

~hoi L. cxziec5.appckarca oil ti tv hricatihn I. 41d

ic Upzu tiii; hc-,va-tv rr) ie hoappceirW i i ti' a r Oqueo t ta~

;-Ac bc;e;..vc:n i;Q Cay2c

0 ;e t 0r Bo Gave" 1a &inaton.v hn tn

Zcyonator S-ott. Th5.s lt3very tiraeily,, belphone call; Mr,

Cha:c~~,bc~~x iV., ai o clo with Rle It11and ccnies Trom

11 i u 1 1 i 1ie. 'u-a;xaus no tatcenote ac:" I I Ltie 1£oxA l

T 9oI : 'vAa i; ltc.o lo a pr o a~vx~tlon to e uub

K tcfcicix MQ ; :K ort aIrtth c onc

111..c_'.:a u id in urt eI

A,,f too yot uan.$W ua zhm

C

AW

125

tt. ,'50

,Coo~

3~~~~- u 3c1ao yo iir c? L~u8~w.t iti1ia o

I.- al-!itvc i av ~ p~a aU 3o~e, avna fie veeks?"~pa

~~~~~~~~6":,cal. o: -, EU3chzv t c wea o c .i3nImt~e&chr xI i

~~~S X om l u~lit; yo thCs f~~ic~ or Ci h943k var .t ,5o rth.~~ ii

2. ScrtrS cotv : Lcu. aA i s inJi .cr-c him £elurzyou;ha

0 P30 ~ o 1, u 1, hc t; C2±,a o I a11 viae I ) t r ,, p i b vy T r.he l

~~~~~~~A~~~alv l~.iiCt3~ i:.GL a~ i nI. co mcio~ ratioioath~. At

r126 ipw

I ul IQX'-- I 40 %It ti'llilic kle 4ave L30orl

j n cutlTd a,T*A- for ozlo ant.i C xlc puz* ,,'t.Plaur 1110

n w, "'c's raocp.ct-(

U'l-V4 P11ITClity 1:0 1 of tht"t.

nv

iat; c): D r,,, 'T110-i.; LO, i E; i n

A t t eap t i

el lie, thc) mcnagrcro on the txlrt Of the

1 11-01 n o, a;i**. an ol)port-unl y for a coavrome

vfU0?h 1"l.to -Ruit'i-oo ",*rj eil'ucu-2 wac mz ter aml have "-Lms

I'le

Q. rl c"'Z, 41:1i3covory " c rg c a W s o (D n,

taGOW1 v l fov that pius thz t

to Nz ovcx prepare t ;) io thM;., 0;.Wcute

cj! thla X, a 0 0 e ,

4 hi' '2.3 0 1 '3 1%cl.; luO OxCO04 Tive wcnalaj,

juctsment on tklat. I am jual.* tOLUAS

tt:c)V JQI C"k; S.zl bc 1U."'zovpat we alh-oula kww before ve go InbD

ra

jj D Cj T 'o-Stal-ld yQU O Say NOU &I nead

of-"Icer? He wa_. ,W neca it; 14 lull

Imlcc,-O. o c"i t; Im prc;Li !-,.I Las off Icer. Th 0 S eme.te -a i I I

--cA. 11-vil Iltucil U442ae to

z

127

lApbI j~1II

I,

;~;

iCL

U:

1Z?

17

24

c.IC'i, c U c Ot.-Zc t uo0LI I' Iv c lim t Z ii . ci~

the i~:v~ ~ * ~ Icc..& that op 2 i 0" ~ 3

~ ~ ;*~2 -a t ~a lccoi, la 'U'O %pproouc.1h tih(2

~ ce.. -Y ciL : e thliab: YOU n-act;SO be

pi':;iy ~ Kk~a Cld niot Laay iit-'.It Ilas to go

t~~c ~i; A r~ ::, z; cr vro-~ c or t txa oc oi ,A ct I untUe

~;h~ ~:c ~ Ui~ c0 LOt

~t; O :xajas c .;:z.or in rito t o : boraiSn l

~ ~ ~ .vD~:c~r;!;c~(c~~yto ',Lt rl*a l.

siXc: izav a C)i exrvot(.

.1 *

4

'I

-j

12eS

UI Lc~~- r r tli 0 1ho x ai p n in 3 t;oG 0 1 o e~xnL

CD ~c ;c~ '~t' o ejxczt-ti aa X io ?eal l"

t4~ ~(2~3.c: &,~J~ ro:Cer info-matioR. I'I.aaU

on LP_ ltj V11 igt hxe

cr ZCh2i c c -- ftoc

23 ~ ~ ~ ~ e toyii SOnic~LWa C~.)

1.4 a4 zic 71 f ll t fi e .*5,z;,WT

0-1 th- I ~ LzhsA v--.ac

up,,,l j;sea01 rotgvU~k;y I C P1^cc o

1- %4mi; m eatr tacnwt-

129

.1, or - ha I o ai l

Art ~ - a.74,1 te precet na Sawa: d ai- fh - n tA m

bo ai- (i&A b,, sz rot a r T±~41r

iy ~~~ c 00 7:il 0, r) I !t -1, eve.on -~yirj me

bolie rlen

r

f

i2

IIC

II9

ti I

* *a 4it~ II~7 11

IIIi

1123

130,

Ule e)-V-#to Owl cieville the articins

CX-Ver a fillbOti-tv-te for ullmrjr

not?

ua a House YGv. are

thoy arn,

fi -i(,,

kjc, vrjt lip 0 , a Ow yl?

br, -'LO-614icif. 0 1 to ,-Aritw tlicz; thej bF-,Ve 40M. that- -i i i rit r co -ze.

-c c. rc-n the Ri t c- ar, , wwre are

the rer4paz tlerj- : CC-Ulaf3ej I'Or 'V*-i7E!

"-iT.t kle V.',IL3 haVilIS O a -: Qr4r hILIZOU"

C C-

rc. 10,ti- fL. G 11 1-1 o z t r a a PW z ub a t I t

110 IF i OC ito I thill!j: 'W-Ile SOllaija Vould

1w uz-Jer the Cons =WUmn to makre.

-y owi ;'l znuovc to a -rlice &- a-, kay v a ar e. not

any prov."LOTI.on ' or

lz '-,our PnDcOmrtok-u fox, til t-I

lil L-110 R.M*fter MISC., C41CA nO'4'*A get

Tklcltr iw-voci to 131""rilte, but Illo Ser.-,MGc,, denleo,

("ll, 'Tkin't C- LIW ;)C-. ImIU.1,41; U'le Floulse-ll;

4(4

Ia

4

,, Io "0 A&i'l-OW'.£oiLtileb

2 i '!!voyb .32 the, biilca' 1 The-a

13 -1 i3 zl,.a n c Lc ,,tiy iX

7~~~~~~C ac~~~ b.Xo:e a ~ 4I.~

noapa

ST

Si0 11, ,0 .tam al...-'.ar i lei.tw

12~I the.~

-irs ll: Pfvc~1Q o cld c 2c L t.0

riaf. .Zut cn A

27 ,1 u AM (;i, ~ ~ o~'ial

p

132

A k

2 i L-.mro U~~niI, Iwouze! xot tilmc iC 3o.

3~~a--4 M.; alOi ' Ki~Iaii of' the plmaip'?zhazml

.0 fd. fl p.2- c tccw'M tci coniArmi to thelde -,.2corZ

,o ref,,ct- by tr?~c fouso -may be aia.htUpon zrtioo'I

a OU zr a ~ y

'aof f-c : klacteHw

thr- j1G--;d Jt~clf Mewd th

cr ct u.", i. :iZcdm~C~,~hx~~a p"zr;Wuton

iC, Hi; 1;-c: eaiim4I 'heax'tien Oia at z~aut 011

17 .

4 Dz~£~icUU~.. yo t ~h2nj14avc done .t acvez'aL

I t i237: . T14xa. ti-c ae il rLi i as vvm, W; t by'

>, ~uac ack gva w h~uoi,24 1ioum ~to

a T c iz

v

6

1

23

25

li -- k ) I^H0304e~ ~S'~~l~r

ic - a c a :.,a: tC c Ta:ac.onwa cp::,i' o I re t a tha

'Uit ' yAk: t a:'*ia c an poeilmlYva pova-

I ~L'. ~ 2'A~~JCU o ~A i~ ti~o plo.ci V.

Sc! n.ra - olam .,Az igt otr

Tiiac k3 22) X!as the OI cloting 110 r

cw1 ,1n ;zp rono b~~fo

by 11 paso

U Vla,,,A2 you IflA ulipin al il

,:I lw rl t 'a a ltt

sl

a

3

4

7

'io

is

~ 7

A.

1~.~'...

2~3

Thoc ~' p:o~~ ~moae-s or conhaia erNatnbutI thought

accO viicr' ii- .n:7 a ,c vc, ncxl o Cl.-pab 'rca' Lhoae,.IWe willi

Oca";o'r rnm, Yeninr

On. c - 7 w""tha roporm:t rlot-1,;Yoy1, ar. tereany

~ I: .7ve ;oaft - 'Or 3a az'--as o2W.evIene cr

3icc'sW;~Ta 6 *',.ypte cair ha to. ra roi thi

.,i.U

* I,

.7,

a.

p

ccBcs whe.ce the aM,.*uazIb111ty

2 b ac-zl cu-atc, ,tec( aild acaaitUC4.

A o.f Vhozo occmrre4l In Wxe, Jo son

i Paxu3.,r3an aLd .Ln 'Uha Am of mcray people

jcj.*.i--*:i o.u licil Mary =40'1810sis WOD the

O;r

Zi:,t thiilk I be Obie "'o

ly. cLOW t;ay th.' s the r kmve mUrZa

tha a perijon -- I mean;, say the

Y i;!Ac, attorriey va--ated to Oppose a

c e,: 1:.-s ci L-, L 1-4- Ile coula malce the

16 cov,16' the questica., but then he acruM

11,!," vc! jS).vcn ilomc-, Suldellwo but It is rather

12Kc.ady akfatmonts a& to tho of that

ji-,)t a 1Uact thcalk; Lnzofar a8 ir. the

-D"; ma th , la

G 0 'I'S, C Z 1C th-1-0 Ji. U11f) ",Aa.41aeJ-14j

I 136

* :~2,hfl Tha ;~;ID 1,s,i7q tAat3eI to be yot

2 Ckocs v WtbY% Dcr, t-hat app~apc ac~q~'a~y?

a- ~ ~ U~.i~d~ 'P:2thao 1bcon v ee but I wouwi not say that

S )cza icr7 c Vhb~[aib otitiv: -rf~r;ve bee n uzeC otter

i'1 0. d 1 ak-,, b ciaz obt4 overrte'I a ~fl ewt*~ ccwl c J. o o 1b, 1 y i.n whi o;~ thwei;3 flno

0, c.yt . 1. 4 Qrc rii heroI f3 a 0 t£-t rnAaW .

L, 1m.'* Ly 1 7I2 cf3 iA6 be v,,)o f3I~

-all 0.n -z I

1 -4.ve z~L ,j.J.. 1r,- Ctocument thwm; Io- 4own at tha

11CI 1t;rca l t m. . f;a tol -ea4

t 1, 72r C,,:, r oc 2 w;ia2b !.e 41 o:n, " asetwa&i ly b een

u24 _o 4 c i- h

2S-a.l .f 3C3)) I y J~ nJ i wlSf0.

137

t*o coivvict lu-ho gelleraL 3'Uanlard

b o inz , a r T., a c o n c b L e

I C"t

Do voutd 11C a

'k-o bo by ccvm;, Cl. M. la noik zso.

7 Hav, p_*eol7!.czi 1,-j W-iero 15 barjlcnLl i* ;,ko

a a : 4,z r, 0 M, -t lce V. p 11 Is G;j I'l Z_ rL.' .

Cln!y Inli'at. -a lon 'tiia 'acre abl.e to

"-nr -n Impea(Mamout t2,1alL, by 00ar

ty to expLaia the'J'..'r varlle

i 3 Y i a L Ll vt " C e a n C J. Af x C m v C aj 11 10 L I e

Ox-leLO sena-1;0ru aalc! '-', ey applied

3 , a e C..encxal star.5ard aeamefJ to

5-1kc:, Bcaauso of 'h(a ac: lous-

17 3 e CS C; v C"L- C.),ll i y

el'nice CnCh sellaluor Call appLy

%Al lEofea In tha presanre i-,A' ru'es W

-n, tc-%:, havi,3 oxprz-aual the eivez aLs

VC11 C.-Ward bAntva more, of tcn spoik-en or the

aZ c, i' Zullty belirt bojoziti a rau oLubLe a L.

Uiall 5'a latly

im&lvo ycji:. _'PwaiaCl axCr "Goiat;

11 138

Thorr, IAo, o X Ion~ly formCi roaty the orp.

G E~ia~cotc66,Onl.y orw.

~ ~ n ~o,"these ImpeaGhmeittrials, we

8 r '4jrik cab out w w- tco, and i hoe I a CLL1t he good

V ~ ~ W~tai K r erent owpac becai~ ~ 'u iis

W3 ~~1 ~ Fjtail Cxls~~~?~.h woraseemd 50imp;y thatn

totl::;: b the ollf?40lop 1K tl'

2,*% :CWdoiebyn a1c i so bl 4cibis

I I .

1

G

i4

20

21

2.5

1.49

~ o:~'~*b~c pc~pi as the fina ;uy ol pub I ic

a t vFxrd b hl WCh ito Jv;'2ievo~ea of the ators ior the.y viiX

aao, lr:,l Uthcy lhave a atnlCw,, I am lih)pn that the

,3tint L L6 Ibv-; o (,Tar ,%.Q o eLL undatsoo(i that I~t;In

accetelb,,,." tho ,lov.:cn peopLe aa ru.±tbLe zPtax~arei by

whiiht.o :,lg vllothoor n 3ot the £iial. outoflm3of' the triL kuz

bo--at a nc jiu[ t'Puconic 'JTcLriju You.

I "c''Io~ircezve the right; to offLer a=

D, - "i' a rUi~o' a quetlait tp be put; to a

ox-:cD i-tmi.oonor or'Cer Ca ar~cIIeO to

~iotY~ it t3liTCu' e c,2 ucc(l to nritimx ;iaput; by the

-Sc. L$Qir ;)cott. W1,init ,,-x eries of quca(AonBa so the

quo~sor, wo saa U.yozzicansw er to quetion -tumber

:P-aotlier vopd~iit can he o]bI~t a zu eeeiirn at that

Ua

~ T1l *wco aLXvicie~ tr In wirwace, becavse I

bolztv -- I o; -?tthar i~t waa IRitter m% t erback, thut

.4-

lj

I* ';. U

4-'4-. ,~*(

c~ .~

(

1401

17

20

1

22

2~3

24

?15

v*ul! 140Y c-Uo101Cd Ilni 0to Iz coi~e ~Z orau2y .4,o that Ithe.

aoT.cl ) I,e . nt f t or t h 3CJ-0. I r a t a n 3 .i er.. t o

1"1 ul t thnum -.erlem Ifthey wanted 1.isoThere Is no

c ';iz tat ic vudbe able to pux.'iua it.

SenatV, 'O'nnro.. nntae:e J~are :Lz.i t~he reooM haU of'

Th We osoppco onnumber X:DC 1 eez w

~ ~ Isi on vagc to.

Th,4on .Y vx1x:"11a Sawtor' is cai~t( &a itne

liC1,1aU bo t irv ' bi p tetny ~Es~ndn I *1

plrac.- ,

Val

14

17

1

23

24.

23

t~r~X~ci~c. Yct, ;,vo ave ild Senators nserve as r

~R~zudx.' C t hey in turn tiu~i'v*I n raklngthe

j~~~~~.t(~~ta iCfcic ~~Ciqr~r~iiom-

L:Q *;~~mi&i.~. tie wai3 cue-4by the Senmte

ha~Taj; =12 atrC thatTh4 ~ tiz- uder the Law

i O votfh2 ; ~~C r~IA h i, .y toth~e lihi~e Hous. Bt ~l

oen~tv- yr. rft zltinst~e rpoua j te ; pro41 e,

'.y i ae zl.'Germteproponza. Iocwnot prov.ie

Hx, Tloo,; iic, --oultl alreadybe wwora in, sir. They

zvuic o i~iv, , :ulbe exroisii,

n~aI'3;;x. It sayz -- at Lome ft ilL 1It

11 T o,. Ao Wilnic that i vouediby rawcri of

(.

"A'4

1'

11

12

14

'7

*10

19

1

25

p -

14~2

bQrtcOljS7 t(;~lAe tO 1Cto j~.atie In ttie cae at thle

Dyd The w I

Mr.

Ljcni'oi: iByrd. zIC tntl,.n aou tiD 8tea.

propo.-ea i-i ao

Sermtoz Scollt,"Scitator or vitnesue or "Senator &,s

Ze~t~r ChaugA ,, callW by either party

th3 t~o be zwrnx

,olxp i~ liit bhc wtnzwoula be imrn.

3e~a1o 2 S)wzt-h4 is -a quesit1on In the proposed

Scit; 4i i~n Tae Jit ;3,Ru.Le 5, ( f4L), wheree the

-13y:.ti , 3Bat W32Qreis r nov-rcwt; 1on for au" & ll

tc~aki l,,3 the. Wic-co, Ln the psent raeeIt even

s~3.b~~;h) io2i 1 the o ah thtiswill be s.ven to tile

2Ic" r aor Cni-ni1amvra It Is an ovrthl'o. 1I~he 'it-

n~ee ~a-uouW i .ave to 'be suom,

Smi.or&Sott h'0 rt TP iers Dto some -,,t;h

I ~ n Bo y-Ld, Oath Gl.vawtothe Sentor.,

2 enluI cztf -"ce. j:taL oati.h

3 That pcvUacni ';he 1.Lrt asori, Seasitores zhaLbe aor

4 i h reah o Cmiat pooeCOUIF,.

tilco whttiZi:am, d o xnob piw.ltI' th

7 :.'.it ~ .z PrOIt 'UaIport-!A*V i he pz'eilfl~njSofficer Aeedizto

11 rogato army vziw hocn 1avtnests by tLaaU43&luestors, t

13 ia'.. , L4ajjnSqUC-tjon - TIO ~not knowa arthi~ng

14 ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~~o ou oW ccise amnto hostile witneaseo

Is :Lc dinot ALC talve -oeng, on Lgidlix~gqustiona.

16 3~ col-tt. Wkzkttjaro yom Preceents on LaC2.rZ

17 c uEs l-Ir?

10 [~ mno W~ .UiAe if ue canrW ~Itagain In

19 jt&

21yto 3a~'Cawioi Wli -wa tat

22a ~ T~~g Raogitzced ri',e3of vittefloe, ruleB on

23 ia aiIi-

P-4 Scdt~r ~cot- Icannot hax- y ou, Mere o iz o Imuch'

2 r,'-01oe1tI oM

4

"t Jf

2 questoono mwcwt %Leci out In ' paLorI c3.1--t, Witneac3 mnL' 'c3 o fvjo--t tablz~q3pro c caur o Ju.Ci,,- rhiaXI 92

4 SaLoaor' SCOt'- T .- L tabUiiccl o~ to parent

q5*VU~eZ,,%iOrz Ifthe ztiicc s tuvxilraout Po be hostla.

(3 AL. aadox'i 2'ctwuY~ a to i It-the way It khap-

7 pem? i 11 ii ~i~iby one p02rtff., hlie turna, Qutd to be

10 The pcp r.3 V2IS ,.140oia riot provide . O t1 . J I o zot see

.4 OVis~iionIlia thc or"ein ut r.e

* Sen,Carmnomi. 'jour± in , not ~ to Dave

a xL h"; To i.xxi3 On that qcztloU0. and i'the Soilate ce 3not

17 tL~ u iict are -,O~rtSto L, o n that tV L we h ave to

1,9 com u p w Ith tla 011c'Iodlarto the, fcie-xr.l tr3 os 1civ3il

20 ic3ine ht co?

21 Dib UXC5e hec:tI Is~i on pogo 12., xlmoar the

22a prco at iu c 2. tha 1z fo. c of ub pooma El rs b, u hich I c

13, L 'R u 10 V 'AYl r)rco3izlall bkc ecxrvOby ' th

25 Sars AI~~Iof fthe cflt U!~3OC~eo~'i-6.ed by

f I

11 1

12

17

10

23

101

146

J I iW~izit 0.c.9rrta1ke In -atu'eat leaa't in ar

ofa erinimnaliaL. Ifrou Leazve the zacusea" In., wu1

sULargue for oppuwcaUoo o ' tilerva~pLof o-' icnce for'

SonaMor Canz-1n, 1 uild aC1 ,, IS-we_ tok hc o cz'tsaout,;

o!0 bolow .1S U-11- peiwonxi pcachet.1 aft cx scrv1ie, ,1iil

18,A.4. U-0 C JU 1x' In PorooOrbyr Attcracy., thlt11UN

i~c~ :t~ic h0 . bo~c,,i caLfC "rcipoiient" Li

3cn~~)rc~cn-~n~ ea~r ~-y £oui * ave no oetioiA to

~ Ii~Cii~. k~IcX:"The poaon ipoeahed hali Then

be ealai ~to eppeac, nd ai -ior &carticez of irnpec~irrent

a ran;d him. :f ho appear,- or por30o2 Eor'him., tho

I. n, ~c c ". '6y Ii 'i -1111 C I1ho appcs k U ho (io no,:'Vappear,

~z~zn& U ij -'by -nojnt or.'attorncy, the z== 3CL

~ ~; ~zv onCie cali~o in 1ch h W 5t) xls .zPe

IP

*1

IL47

1 nobody apereCU

2 Samor oco~t Vcr-

3 ~ D-e 11cl~licti, Tkiee. =Ejthave be-an tvo

4 XVX: "11L.i-I tona _M040 b~y the jp",t.3_ e i Cthier Cotusel

5 tqhall be 14-0 CC ~Othe am' lle or aQ2L U hc, ~ ny

S ert-L; o v ':a2jir, lI 1a 11C-, isll: l ,L~ be o:a- L ti~o v-1Lting;

10 flox*:ammn. P ut lby tecIha~x~.

_-c, X7aQ) ic i }Jch 1to30 batot~ilir onw, 1the

somCto):tSCOG Tia1m13 ire what 3t SaXi4

15 Sc~aovC io~i O to ar lr ra. thugh vewer

?G 2X3~abcu2 the q{ve jt3ix 3U1l by oneo oS. the Swatox's

;RO zh;~ - L.:.on;,~iu b c 11o r not eecal

One rzK m~~ itj ti~~o~~~c hal.1., by orier;

22 tin~

23 by 5.Lo.C1 ao1.scf.orL'Whogie nraUa eci

2 Cauai~a!nuA

3

4

10

71

I-a

17

P-0

21

211:1.

2.13,

24

25

14S

Sector coi-moA. Correct;q

RjaCtIeLc, XXII* "The caaex on. oach aldc; ahalL be

ca by ol41 Pm-,,30n. -The :C111cal arlyauu-'Ilt Oxl the acr!Lo =y bc

cc ch B Cic oLiw4w f-e by

the Sell-ato I r-On 11hatf purpoqc), an the areu-,

mcx c zhaU bc opiriza anci closc l op- blie, part ol, the of

ki

SCIIIIStO:, 'OY*-"d, 1 11-L t-110 S0113113011 tZrIalo tWO Wisak-3

ba-faiva thc-, i'i.iril I coo the ruiez vouLtl su

G-mot Lfll to 164he Ch-lc:C jvu gan ax-IQ 'Who Delutl

Ghlaf jucl,,Pc.Lt; W2cra may bo impot-3c-r.i refelsonable. UnItationa on

Op@nlnsv anal 010,linc.; X zhauWA 1ihink thw Smate vcuU

be abLc to VA ova v.tlL 'U'lle P3 0301113 rules Ln that

rozara,

C,?,iirLoii, tdiC lwlu aClap6*cu ox, icro on

I al ,2 c n). r.., c C. 3 o, o L i Arl a raucb In o'14her

tolla tl.lac,

Scrate iuhaU rcco tz pro-

cl ,.-QG 0j", u, In the cap.0 0- leslsLa-

IvAvc uio Lho r,,.,me Zliatl bo In the Same

manning , a;; vc procccf.-I of the Sw a-ba,

T, t,,a caurn o ; 11 oa a not ina Lal c t he c io; , C-4 this

proscilt,

Vkl

3

v3

25

____________________________ If ________________________________ ______________________________________________

Senator Secc'-o For' our' Ptapozies -- I2; lk IV for rno

Other' rcwao,, On IC! shQU~ICI hoi~ecx'e fox, te ecox'ain? ofthe

SCK T4. - i- :.,ec wutlil10 -hat, 2I boUvc you i3IcppW*

Oiiinc- ii. 0 ;c3A. " b2k

~~ ~w 8iatLc 4 ~aL 1irect tue o oir to be concQ

Z 0rn L.-, 0T.,Y Cf, ?i I woufd hope me voui g et a

~hac~v:.'o Uj ox Toyxt.a to ibe appropriately anrl thien

Th~~ ioJ.~ ~~zr4.CjJ, b, iiC placa ii' lie .,jnt3 ',o makic U; by

:c~~;~i Cg~cc~ i~~ W- 1,62.1* Cozsc~tIn i~coimln, aa to vhukY

ScE131or CjQOLI,,. TjiX3~ (jVS heCIM0111lUal. quoas2on of al

Dr' C;c. M(X;: "All the Ordrl an, 5 acAILvIOI salt

'4,,

r'4~

nA,

150

VO MIldc! &I'd 1-1 0 1 Y Y0,'S '1'41 VKLYz - WhIch ZIX'l, be Ontorca

dn tile 1ecorcl,",VnIc Ot Ij

Scrator -11,11Y LAIIO-0114-41 i5o not have I-jjc herw

0i A 0 -J c a Z 0 t C, r b 0 L x,< c bZT yea2 an !-j

d. a bY nays unLozz otherl.l.loc

JSCO lu., X till Ili, L rirr t

(Ilannnn. If. tl-iinllt that lo br-,WUcj,.

DI%4 RI-dick. T111c is on1y part of \-X.

Dr. R! Wle c. T!ic Lar3t oro. XXlll-

ScnatcrPusn. Wortlirz&e an Mill-if by.ycaa an'l

Ilayn O''llevulce Wic, corl-OlAtution, Of COIIZ720,

c; nk--:, t<n: 0:3.

-4 MQ ao a reautt of a re-

:.,cqucz'V , tAlen tho yc-az may not be

be"aa otheiwI30. W40MAA."

Sc,,nal4d,,,)r L';coLt. njtpiclc by riaying "as othorwiso

4w'AlL.Ly That Is confusIng,

Sey.,, ';or Ali.cn, No, Who quci3tlon -- maybe thle Was 'arW

nays vn cn o'*ho2?,,;.7L;jc just raverac what you have

there,

YOU

"d - -UU I It*a -.ccn bc (dn klnLof t.r Otlicnulser-,., I I

13

14

16

17

1

22

23

25

151

S~aor Cannon. "1Yzy be hac2by yeas a;,4 nayz incn oaBothe

whazt 3nato .. t o intJJ2ie~ in~g out, ya' oiu oU ia±voto s

thlov-h te pocemn o or or Chc 12yeas n ys unaer thie

whre n hztlacet5.i th ixaJL 'elon lvea p to e by ycs eIn

~hoIf "hay iaoty by YC- asnnrA

r~d0) ~3yt~b 4-A~ voice vote hera', If any Senators

deial yc'2 h mi naj u2jj ,-tc VCiist 0z1tiWhe a th oa '

fill

Iot

its£.

oil

j

152 1

4

S.

14

17

20

2t

2?.

ZCaiki -o oxa "'O dett2J.l-1c Ox"Uhe quosionp ho.-Izm~ah4

~iaC '~j~ot~wi~Lh o ~U~y~zciil only bo catl o

Coat'%.u5.-*ai - ucaledby a L-ft h of thoso preen ;*

llo eIiPv-c Lo 1.rto this r'e, this v=&Lm w e haveto

hav te co a 4rmyauaeou by ur~aimasconuenl they. are

viharn, do w~e znot?

Dr. fidicL in ffctthait la urhat it aowts ito,

scr-.atarC'Ouror-. WCU. i Cupposie wo giveo oze thovoghL; t~o

Ut tover" bli c cxW ~tic an ct 'iiiim±inh u4ohtto be

ro:c;i~al-r-Arix of PRulo XIappeareIin t'wo 4.Lz'"-eat

Scnmtor Camlan. if: RULSe XIV were C aawtain its

Thia is ofl.7 a amaU IiloXI o~r u'e XXIV.

Dr.Riddickc. Do yoxi. tant mie t~o reaa Um the a?

AI teo.drs ,.l.W nn ealooa DhaU .ba.muiva anG aCi by

yeas ar4 nay2,, iihlch albal be exftereid on Me r'cord.. anxcI wit

ciut acbate, oubjeet,, iho~ver, to the Opem-tioni of h~eVII.,

except vhf xi the cdoors ahaU .be ea.osc.T for dlelibelatlon,, aw

Ma~t cave fno racni..3or h~jl peA more t~ian on.co on. o~e w-

1 .

A

'I ~

II:1

#11' ~* II ~

I ~

~I *~vk~

f

11

tlia , lz not the preccoonice,

gii cvozv, onoo

153

Dr. RU61c1c.

scnat"O-Lt Canl, ,Ola. A-z! rlrpftt , 'Doctox,

R-aTc, M-rjl, o*,11ir n portlo i of that aleo-,

"bzlt jLi, tl c ocz".3011 4acc"locci 1-r, 3 licki 'wotic ic"C', 01", In"Pw"ClUAW-t

allall be v,po.a apy of ::taid artlc4l'co by the vatca

of liho mc facxa prcr;ent tive Smate zhvUL pro-

jLWgmen' j,,, ancl a %*Oe-,tl:Uc4 copy of such

judgmonlu- uhnl 'be 6-pOzUc4 la the OfIS"Jice of tho Seoretary

of Statc."

'Ziat 10 Th"ly I VaO r-%Alzins the question avon thouGh that

prcccacn , zald on %-Jho portloa of an artle -le, Vid; he Is con-

of

cl.c-k-sr f;o It oulw- onle way or the other,

t :,- .' nlfj" IvC- bc!tUc:C., CLcz;?cr, If J.t -crcs npeUcd outtiv

e ft o as c o my L c -

woula remAlP in CoLovicU".0n,

to inCticate th-a"- Jzw'v 9top r;Ljoht. there and

U Gourric" tile ro; "- 0: IL would 300

1, Ul Um Other article?

Vollator Ct'llilicNa. ITO: 1 thlilk It 191 ClUlte CllCaY If 110 La

o.a -W.-Lic artic;.e. Wtat woulA entl 1 riGht thcn anCi

154ocrm I- c),-, S c I i't T o'

L u 1-t 16 0.-z a c a 2 a til I z 1,20nt an to

o n v 0 a.

Scna'Gor Cannop,

an Lla abai in tho Caze of the

co.avActlon, bu.1A ir. 604e caiccz hwc

as la ciie ir0,tance, f.Lve

V ot ci, 0 It "i -12.1 t c,:,3 to C01rv I c t a juac a.

Flen, Mivd-r "-LAZe vouLd pmaounco J-aclgmowu

Wac actula! u

a ziinute. 3: am i!inct this.

Sel-: I Oz, ! Du P-011o'-ume 4wgmea on 3ucho haa

y 0,0. c u. 6 fcavo C, Strons _"n*femnae.

of

not c.:tun -,OV- T "'rona office. aW CM3q-aaUf1ca,- On ma 01,IJ 0 k"D110r, truot, or

ally Offlac ci.

'U"Clo

Lilovo I.,; anothlz j -01,11ch Scem 150

0::1 i'llix cthc., prov o-o In tile con2tIttition"

!3 -0-njy;3 "Upon W e commure=e of Wo thirs ol

or av'uAcEca *iaatl be sua-

t 1-1 C I'lo Cour'-,. UjjjQ-- tjjC CaVrt jjpOj-

t 01,1 L u I U11 Ghicl' YwdLaz O(JAlarwLse

Onter "Ile aa.Al.imum

20

21

25

-.55

I4

6

7

9

EG

~.'2

*19

24

J~~2J fj)2.LO2.by cc

icL >C', LL :3.LiC .5. wtlcc ir ,o. ox c't twZh.

~z'c ~; ~k~c ~ dh~q~ ba1 - JudgeXw &c i, h

c3.oLa:2 '*he; cxi! b morc o. CW~t beXO.4IOez2 r~

I ..-.-. - '*-a - b o xe h a

un. yhn;u xb2bioli

v~WAl.

i

V

22

2

I).i

Ic. c. A r a6I

~~. &SU, 1C ou r Orth tI h pr iaep

~~~~~i are~;;c2 ~L?~~c oi~~t ic

C.r.X0 C. .y

1 t v

9

n I. iU, m ou AX-4,a'n. or ycla xx.x-(C ICA'A

t'n~c Ciia-C'i c bo ltqcms 137).2t be'-

m -1 5a ~oL~i;?'-, cyoj v ci j u . a c~tt~. vear o

n: . o c ctAn7g S ie., £2.ve, an-one,

Ip~ ~'C~)C~22fjt'00.~

22 ~ ~ ~ ~ ~~~Q hc"Oc ' ; i o-e oa

"'hc 0"P he .. h

v OK

c.; n o io T, T J1 t 0 v il e a gncL

or 1 1 T you ~OI ~ - Lnipaa = te, tf 2.cy raA of WI-if

'o , Cj o 9 ocaoozcUL-at a- igt;--d

i-!i~ liai c utiat -'c:. ai :.o the I ~ew ftechre

;2 i opr~gzo u~colln n fi-h

VI

1.59

*21

.j I4

nI

0

.* (.

C

17

z ;j

20

2;

22

23

Gill. ~i;o aj ppear rkl wT.1 Abe prpac

)ciUa1:1. 110 bzl, Oa or p Ve o6 or

~~ coore, ii" t2is Ow±3~Lar Whave

; ~~i Li0', ij T. aUo L a s a a WtyI; hpe ve Q~ll ot

it u:o hLave one ,xi th c:1.4f h Pr.r;f3 r w

T. lLat-cm L, (o) 1o10TA baxt tcAhei Oppor-,

Ly~ ~ ~~rmbo ~ C~2~ ~e~ 11c,

- tA;~wc~~xI l i ,Im O a," the it; may ba

ll:,j:2 6 j,, c Py, ho; ht t o osy b a t 1. thee Is cry , A

F

WWI

q,0.1j7

;:

1

is

~i

'1

4

160

a~~ miAtc),c bcci theW y IC no" votc to convlelc.

12 cv- UO v;itc to c-pavicc 'bialle IcaiX 'aon wenft

~ -u ~l'rj to vo~e on A Iticc -7-7tho n aza laileal,

Fa :'C tic KxL7, b2c1 O -u xpon he~~LtCI leL.

vva ot cz X1CA":.A22 - -o k-eofLo.A-a3:" V ula

Ci~' r by C ga 3.R ~ o:theCe or ofA2 the~a~

m-ce yc oto~L oa o ci2* = the a. X( -Dyou e

xnot ioxpng t o 'iotc o2*4a-l. eveia, onaQ; *vets conthrecvoa Ol

jc~c~nc~cii:I I, ~can ic o2 te at 1it of toat"li, eile

trl-n.l -til O.,ra l the" W Ba

Tt-0 o a x xt 5~~ e cu ot r a h ee W,.L ng s

via, l ozq pyrrilase 0 ~2 Cpo f 4cweiitavold i;~

i'll.:5.

* .5 55

.5

5'''..

.~

P

33

31

4

'4

0

'i0

'U

a..

U'

17

If)

2Cr

zri

22

24

25

(' ':w *%v2Z.of21iex. heoisnorezk nov4; a" the

*,.iiCi easbt )o ay

LxbcuckO L iI the dealZe-InW-c e Snla"Je on

caOL sbt~ crvv-I, o2~tccuit upon oonvI.P.o1nQ

-L5U(on zzra.

~o-tILa'*o"c.Z c.o*I.Iy to ci-owct I himi rot2 offic~e-

U~ h'~c ~x~vL~~on o ction I!of Amiamaz XM? of

~ Oi~5.{t~. ~'upon~ riimt~on, or removal.

X, 3 c~, 3U., On2ly af"eta ~ldr;j te oath,,

All a t Ax. r i i ai e.a mA i~ om.the

bc22' orz! U2 ';'iiQ ha idre ftluin InUratv Uto i

F' vi1

IT*

ILI."

On~ ~

'Il s

f. 'I

r74

43

1-2

27

22

X-3

24,

1,1evc-I bc rec, ,. i U

Ccr-l-'o n W10ve E)q lc

C hI Lu. rsyy haf ma4a

t'j co')_L02 o/I mcm of uie moz recent lwla'a of

11 3:U iermlllc 0.1fil Olle of RIU1.4

-G-a 1_- c4cj tiloz( so may Inave a Go 'qoviawtr o I i. Ur xn ttcrr"'ca being I'l, , -.

Ti) ma ca out; z Us

that ict, Up to tho actual

T-. _,'-"-!l.'a.'a. Oi6c:va cn.na mot. cnrs wcr 2 canvica.

Dr (111. tizat polnt yva ralac(3 abo'ub his

0 Lhol c tot cxwy have been to that

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