Ben Greenfield Podcast 113
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Transcript of Ben Greenfield Podcast 113
Podcast #113 from http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com/2010/09/episode-
113-a-peak-into-the-world-of-professional-cycling/
Introduction: In this episode: a peek into the world of professional
cycling, ketogenesis during workouts, phenylalanine and
aspartic acid on ingredient labels, insomnia and nutrition
deficiencies, compression socks, building leg muscles
effectively and the benefits of rowing machines.
Ben: Hello folks. I am traveling once again and this week I’m at
Inter-bike in Las Vegas, on Wednesday, the day this podcast
comes out and Thursday as well as Friday. For those of you
who don’t know what Inter-bike is, it’s really one of the
world’s biggest bike expos where endurance athletes, cyclists,
triathletes and anyone in any of those industries comes
together and basically shows what’s coming in the industry
over the next year in terms of gear, nutrition and new
products. It’ll be an exciting show and I’ll be releasing videos
from that show over at a website for which I do some
journalism work at www.everymantri.com. So go to
www.everymantri.com to see some of the latest and greatest
cycling type of products, and I’ll also be doing some reviews
of some of the health and fitness products that I see there,
right here at www.bengreenfieldfitness.com. Now I’ll be
headed down to Sacramento on Friday to teach a fat loss and
human performance seminar. So if you’re in the Sacramento
or El Dorado Hills area, just email
[email protected] and I’ll fill you in on where to
go and how to access that seminar. And then finally I’ll be
headed down to San Francisco on Monday for a top secret
meeting down there that I’ll bring you more information
about later on. Now the only thing I wanted to announce
before we get on to the special announcements is I know that
many of you have enjoyed the articles that I write for
Triathlete magazine. I’ve also been doing writing for several
other publications and many websites. However I received a
memo from Triathlete magazine last week that freelance
writers who submit articles to that magazine are no longer
allowed to actually write for any other publications. So,
unfortunately I’m going to have to move on from Triathlete
magazine because I simply cannot commit to only releasing
articles for one single magazine. For any of you writers out
there, you know that that would be career suicide and when
somebody like me who relies on writing as part of the way
that I pay the bills, is required to write for only one magazine,
that’s a pretty tough rule to follow. So I won’t be writing for
Triathlete magazine anymore. My apologies to those of you
who enjoyed seeing my articles there and if that’s something
that upsets you or it’s something that you don’t like, then
write an email to the email address that I’ll put in the
Shownotes for the editor of Triathlete magazine. So if you go
to the Shownotes for podcast number 113, I’ll put the email
right there and you can let Triathlete magazine what you
think about me not writing for them anymore. So ending on
that high note, let’s go ahead and move on to this week’s
special announcements.
Remember, if you have a question for the Ben Greenfield
Fitness podcast, you can email
[email protected]. You can call toll free to
8772099439. We had a lot of call in questions this week. Or
you can Skype if you’re international to user name pacificfit
using the free Voice Over IP call service from Skype.com.
And the first question this week comes from Ian who asks…
Ian asks: Why sometimes after a training session do I have an
ammonia like smell in my nostrils by the time I get to the
shower? Is it something I’m not doing right with nutrition? I
can’t figure it out.
Ben answers: Well, this is something that actually happens to more people
than you’d think and it’s basically almost like an acidic
ammonia like smell that you get in your nostrils and you can
sometimes taste it a little bit in your mouth or even smell like
a nail polish removal on your breath when this is happening
to you. Now basically this comes down to the concept or
ketones. So I’m going to explain this to you. Ketones are
basically a normal fuel that the body uses for energy and
they’re produced from the liver actually breaking down body
fat or breaking down fatty acids when it doesn’t have access
to a lot of carbohydrates or glucose. Now there is absolutely
no rule that you have to break down carbohydrate or glucose
to make energy. The body very efficiently breaks down fats
and fatty acids to make energy and these ketones are a
byproduct of that breakdown of fatty acid. Now when your
body is producing these ketones or using ketones for fuel, it’s
called ketosis. Any diet that restricts calories underneath
what you’re actually using during the day from exercise and
physical activity or any diet that severely restricts
carbohydrates is going to put you into a state of ketosis.
Because basically your body is going to start relying on fat for
fuel, so the liver is going to convert these fats into energy and
ketones. Now some people in the medical profession will tell
you that burning these ketones for energy can be dangerous,
or that high levels of ketones in the body can be dangerous.
But the main reason for that is because there is a condition
that diabetics can get called ketoacidosis. It’s very dangerous
for diabetics because what happens is the blood PH becomes
very acidic due to high blood sugar levels. And that’s because
diabetics don’t produce insulin so a lot of blood sugar ends
up being in the body and ketones are produced by the body
to provide fuel since the cells aren’t able, in the diabetic
who’s in the state of ketoacidosis, to be able to use the blood
sugar. So you get this combination of high blood sugar and
an acidic condition combined with high levels of ketones.
Now, the high levels of ketones aren’t the bad thing. The very
acidic PH is the bad thing. The high blood sugar and the high
levels of sugar circulating in the bloodstream – that’s the
problem, not the ketones. So ketones really are fine to burn.
Producing energy from fatty acids is something that more of
us could do more of the time. The brain actually really likes
to use ketones for energy. That’s why some people who do
intermittent fasting or people who go on severe caloric
restriction or go on a diet for a certain period of time, they
get very focused mentally because the brain learns how to
very efficiently use those ketones – its natural source of fuel
for energy. Now on the flip side, if you are training for
performance, if you are not trying to lose weight and if you
are struggling with energy levels then being in a state of
ketosis may not be where you want to be, especially during
your workout. That’s why for a lot of folks, I really do
encourage a higher fat, higher protein diet. But before that
workout you should be attempting to – if you’re going after
performance or doing a hard workout to get a pre-workout
meal consisting of carbohydrates so you’re not burning so
many ketones for energy during your workout. Now, there’s a
very easy way to tell if you’re in a state of ketosis. You can
just get PH strips that are urine PH strips and when you use
those PH strips, if they’re showing up purple or dark purple,
that’s usually indicating that there are actual ketones that are
at a high level in the bloodstream. I’m again not saying that’s
a bad thing but that would affirm what I’m suspecting here,
that that ammonia like smell on your breath is due to the
burning of ketones. If you feel great, if your energy levels are
fine, if you’re not having performance deficits then take a
breath mint and get on with your life. But if you are having
low energy levels, if your performance isn’t where you need it
to be, then consider amping up your carbohydrate levels a
little bit especially pre-workout or even during the workout
so you can burn some of the fast burning kindling for fuel –
the carbohydrates. And then put that slow burning log on the
fire, those ketones, and basically use those fatty acids for
energy the rest of the time. So I hope that helps. It’s a great
question. A lot of people actually struggle with that and I’ve
smelled it on clients before as a personal trainer and
sometimes it’s a real hint as to what’s going on in the diet.
Sara asks: I am taking a lot of supplements for performance and other
health benefits. I’m taking an amino acid supplement that
contains aspartic acid and phenylalanine. I’ve seen foods that
contain phenylalanine and have a warning on their label for
that purpose. I’ve also done research on both of these and see
that they’re part of the sugar substitute aspartame. Do these
amino acids have health benefits or should I stop taking this
supplement because it isn’t healthy?
Ben answers: First of all, when you see a warning for phenylalanine on the
label of a nutrition product – when it says it contains a
source of phenylalanine or contains phenylalanine, that is
because there is a portion of the population that are born
with this rare genetic disorder. It’s called phenylketonuria
and basically it’s an inability to properly metabolize
phenylalanine and this can lead to some health problems
that we don’t need to get into, but basically lots of foods
contain phenylalanine. Both packaged foods as well as meat,
fish, dairy, eggs and of course anything that has aspartame in
it. So these people who are phenylketonuric, they have to be
very careful with their phenylalanine intake because they can
only process so much of it. You will know if you have this
condition. You will have known since birth or your parents
will have known most likely and so unless you have this
condition, the phenylalanine is really something that you
have to worry about too much. It’s actually an essential
amino acid, meaning your body can’t make it. It’s a building
block for protein. It’s not a dangerous chemical. Because it is
able to be combined with some other chemicals to produce a
sweet taste, it is however used in Nutrisweet and products
with aspartame. So that’s where you have to be kind of
careful, if you’re getting phenylalanine from a product just
because it has an essential amino acid in it, that’s not a big
deal. If you’re getting phenylalanine in a product because
you’re consuming an artificial sweetener, that’s something
you do need to be careful with especially when you consider
that many artificial sweeteners contain what are called
excitotoxins, and aspartic acid which you also mentioned is
among those excitotoxins, and what excitotoxin is, it’s a
chemical that can actually damage nerve cells and essentially
what it does is an excitotoxin will bind to certain receptors in
your brain and cause a lot of calcium ions or calcium to be
able to enter into the brain and that can activate a lot of
different enzymes that potentially can destroy cell structures
and components of your cell membrane. They can mess up
the DNA a little bit, they can mess up the cytoskeleton of the
cell a little bit and excitotoxins have been associated with
some neurodegenerative diseases like multiple sclerosis,
Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s, alcoholism, things of that
nature. And the thing with aspartic acid is aspartic acid is
also an amino acid but it’s not an essential amino acid. So
consuming foods that are very, very high in aspartic acid
could be an issue. It kind of depends. Technically from a
chemical standpoint, it really needs to be what’s called the
base of aspartic acid which is also known as aspartate. So if
you see aspartate on the label which you’ll see in something
like aspartame or some other artificial sweeteners, that’s
where you want to be careful. Aspartic acid as part of like an
amino acid compound or protein powder is not a big deal.
Just be careful with aspartate and don’t worry too much
about the phenylalanine. So, good question.
We’re going to move on next to a call in question.
Geoffrey asks: Hi Ben, I have a question for you concerning my teenage
daughter. She has a problem that’s getting worse with falling
asleep and more importantly when she does get to sleep, she
wakes up around 2 or 3o’clock in the morning and can’t get
back to sleep. That seems to be the worst problem. She’s a
vegetarian so if I’m wondering if she might be missing
something in her diet. Just wondered if you had any ideas as
to what food or supplement she might want to look at to help
her sleep better. Again my name is Geoffrey.
Ben answers: Alright, well first of all nothing I say here is to be
misconstrued as medical advice to control a medical
condition or medical diagnosis or prescription. However,
there are definitely nutritional deficiencies that could be
contributing to insomnia especially in a vegetarian diet. I’m
not necessarily saying that vegetarianism is the culprit here,
but it could be likely. You take for example the B vitamins. B
vitamins really help your body cope with stress, with tension
and both of those are common causes of insomnia. Vitamin
B12 specifically is something that vegetarians really need to
be careful to supplement with or get in high amounts in their
diets. You find vitamin B in things like Brewer’s yeast and
nuts and seeds, molasses and eggs. Whole grains have them.
But vegetarians are notoriously deficient in B vitamins.
Tryptophan is an amino acid and amino acids are always
found in higher contents in meats and dairy products and to
a limited extent in nuts. But tryptophan is a substance in the
body that is converted into serotonin which is a compound
that’s crucial for sleep and so if she’s low on the amino acid
tryptophan, which you could get that tested by a company
like – for example Bioletics does amino acid testing. That’s
one company you could ask about looking into her
tryptophan levels. That’s something that could be a culprit as
well. Vegetarians are notorious carbovores and a high sugar
diet, because of high blood sugar levels, can basically cause
you to wake up at night once those blood sugar levels drop
off because essentially you get an insulin response to the
hypoglycemia and then your blood sugar levels drop off and
you wake up in the middle of the night. So if your daughter
has erratic blood sugar levels because she’s eating lots of
grains and sugars and processed carbohydrates because she
is a vegetarian, is either not managing her protein intake well
or just avoiding meat and eggs in favor of carbohydrates,
then that could be an issue. And the trick there is going to be
really increase the vegetarian based fats and proteins if she
wants to remain a vegetarian. So getting lots of avocadoes
and olive oils and olives and lots of seeds and nuts and seed
and nut based oils that are cold pressed and not produced in
a factory or exposed to high amounts of pressure or
temperature – so we’re talking about a cold pressed olive oil
or flax seed oil or one of the Udo’s oils that I actually take
now. The Udo 3-6-9 oil. I shared last week that when I’m
consuming these fats with my meals, it actually really
stabilizes my blood sugar levels. You would expect them to
increase after a meal, but those fats in fact decreased my
blood sugar following a meal. Those would all be things to
consider. Selenium is another compound that could actually
be tied to insomnia. People with low levels of selenium often
higher levels of blood pressure which can contribute to
insomnia so that’s something that I’d look into as well, and
along with selenium, I would look into the mineral
magnesium. And Dr. Caroline Dean is someone who I
interviewed on the show. I’d highly recommend that you go
to www.bengreenfieldfitness.com and you do a search for the
“Magnesium Miracle.” And in this interview with Carolyn
Dean, she talks quite a bit about the link between
magnesium and insomnia, and you could for example just try
something like using a Peter Gilham’s Natural Calm Powder
mixed into a little bit of water before bed at night or a topical
magnesium spray. And then if you really want to get down
and dirty and get into the testing, you could use a company
like Unikey Health Systems. That’s one of the companies that
I recommend to my clients for tissue mineral analysis, but
also food allergy and food intolerance testing. I use their
expanded GI panel and their tissue mineral analysis. So I’ll
put a link to Unikey Healthy Systems in the Shownotes. I’d
also look into Bioletics. You can look into magnesium testing
with them as well as the amino acid testing from them. And
finally I’ll put a link to the two magnesium products that I
would recommend in terms of like a pre-bed intake. I’ll put
all that as a link in the Shownotes.
Alright, the next question is from an interesting Twitter
handle. Chunkybearcub.
Chunkybearcub asks: Is there a particular brand of compression socks you’d
recommend? I’m looking to wear a pair for a 50 mile ultra.
Ben answers: Well for those of you who aren’t familiar with compression
socks or what they are, you’ll see a lot of people wearing
them in marathons, cycling events and triathlons these days.
They’re usually socks that go up just a little bit above the calf
or even all the way up to the knee and essentially they’re
designed to improve circulation, prevent blood pooling in the
feet during long periods of time spent in physical activity and
to also stabilize the muscles from jiggling so to speak. From
some of the damage that could occur during a long day of
impact. Now the type of compression socks used in sports
are quite different than some of the medical hosiery that
you’ll see used as compression socks. A lot of the medical
stuff is just designed to eliminate some of the excessive
swelling that can happen during long periods of sitting or
activity and those can help you a little bit if you’re just sitting
on an airplane or something like that. But the types of socks
that are actually designed for sports performance are called
graduated or gradient compression socks and those are the
type that you want to get and most of the top manufacturers
– Skins is one example, Beaker Concepts is another – they’re
going to use the graduated compression socks. Now I
personally own a pair of compression tights and I wear those
typically the night before I do a race to really help flush my
legs. Sometimes I’ll even use them a few days leading up to a
triathlon. And although I don’t – or have not yet used
compression socks during a race, I will be using kind of like a
modified shorter version of the Beaker Concepts
compression sock prior to or during Ironman Hawaii this
year and I’m also using a sock called the recovery sock that is
a little bit higher in the compression types of fibers though a
little bit harder to put on. That’s not designed for activity per
se but for recovery. Now, as far as a certain brand, it doesn’t
really matter too much on the brand as much as the fact that
you’re getting a sock that was designed for activity, not
recovery and also make sure that it’s a graduated
compression sock and that will help out quite a bit. And yes,
there has been research done on compression socks.
Research goes back and forth in terms of performance
benefits, but definitely points to a significant benefit when it
comes to recovery. And in my opinion, while you are running,
something like an ultra-marathon, recovery is paramount
because when you’re running miles 23 through 50 you are
trying to recover from miles 1 through 25 and so that’s the
same reason you would want to do something like take in a
protein carbohydrate blend rather than just carbohydrate
during an event like that, just because you need to be
thinking of recovery during the event, not just after the event.
Now if you want to ask a question via Twitter, just go to
www.twitter.com/bengreenfield. Click “follow” and ask your
question. So, next we have a call in question from Listener
Sarah.
Sarah asks: Hi Ben, my question is geared toward muscle building. I
have two questions, one of which is for someone who is
wanting to put a good amount on and specifically in the legs,
how much cardio would you recommend? I’m trying to put
on a good amount of muscle. I get mixed reviews about the
cardio because I’m a woman and I’ve talked to a couple of
figure competitors that have said that on non-training days
it’s okay to do upwards of 45 minutes to an hour worth of
cardio. I don’t know if that’s too much cardio especially if
you have a tendency to tear down a lot of muscle in the legs.
I’ve heard also that just 20 minute of interval training is
sufficient enough. I’m currently doing three to four sessions
of cardio a week. On the days that I train, sometimes I’ll do
30 minutes and that’s it. On the days that I don’t train, I have
taken their advice and a couple of times done upwards of 45
minutes. But I don’t want to tear down muscle. I’m trying to
build it, so I was curious as to what your recommendations
would be.
My second question is about carbs. I’m doing the
recommendations that Darin said. He was on your podcast
several months ago, about eating carbs on the days that you
train and very little carbs on the days that you don’t train.
But I train at night. So my 3rd and 4th meal are carbs, but my
last meal would be my post-workout meal and by the time I
come home, I’m tired from lifting heavy. I do take my protein
and of course a good amount of protein, I don’t take in a lot
of carbs for my post because I go right to bed. What are your
recommendations on how much carbs I should take post-
workout? That would be my last workout and it would be
prior to bed.
Ben answers: Alright, well let’s first address the first part of your question.
For a female figure competitor who’s trying to build muscle,
the first thing you want to consider when it comes to cardio
is you don’t want to do exercises that are considered very
catabolic or exercises that are more prone to tear down your
leg musculature. And in this case that would be running. I
would stay away from doing much treadmill, high impact
running and instead I would do incline walking or cycling.
Either of those activities will allow you to maintain your leg
musculature, even build leg musculature especially in the
hips, thighs and butt where female figure competitors can
actually get an advantage and not break down your muscle.
Now in terms of general figures, you’re going to see most
figure competitors kind of in the offseason, prior to those
four to eight weeks building up to a figure event doing
anywhere in the range of about three to six hours of cardio
during the week in addition to their lifting. And as you get
closer and closer to the event, you’re looking at needing
closer to four to eight hours of cardio. And remember, I’m
not recommending this for the general population, I’m
recommending this for the female figure competitor who
needs to achieve a very low body fat. Now you’re going to
want to split this up between cardio intervals and long-slow
fat burning cardio sessions because you don’t want to train
your body to simply rely on those high intensity intervals and
the carbo-based fuel but you also want to include a few slow
steady fat burning sessions as well. If time permits you could
do for example two interval sessions on the bike during the
week and then also do two long slow uphill walks on the
treadmill of anywhere from one to two hours as well during
the week. Again we’re talking about a female figure
competitor. I’m not making this general recommendation for
the general population. But that’s what I would do. Go with
non-weight bearing cardio. Focus on lower amounts, right
around that four hour range as you’re not within eight weeks
of your competition, then bump that up to four to eight
hours as you get within range of your competition. And you
don’t have to worry about breaking down muscle as long as
you’re eating proper calories and protein.
And speaking of calories, the second part of your question as
far as your post-workout carbohydrate intake… what
happens is when you consume pre-workout carbohydrates, a
lot of times your insulin levels and your blood sugar levels
are still going up or stabilizing even after you’re done with
the workout, unless you’re doing some monster two to three
hour workout. And so the need for post-workout
carbohydrate and even post-workout protein intake really is
not something that you need to prioritize too much. I
recently wrote an article about this over at the Rock Star
Triathlete Academy. If you go to www.rockstartriathlete.com,
you can read that article on post-workout nutrition. But
essentially what it comes down to is that if anybody, not just
a female figure competitor, but anybody is working out late
at night and you’ve eaten a carbohydrate and protein based
meal prior to that workout, there’s no need to do anything
but have a very small snack after that workout before you go
to bed. And the advantage to that is you’re not raising your
insulin levels very high. You’re not going to get that
hypoglycemic drop which can interfere with sleep and also
interfere with growth hormone release and muscle repair,
and so you’re really doing yourself a favor by prioritizing
your pre-workout nutrition if you’re a late night exerciser.
And then after the workout you could do something, for
example, like have a little bit of protein powder mixed in
with some coconut milk and go to bed. So the post-workout
carbohydrate is not something you need to worry about too
much if you’re taking in a pre-workout meal. If you’ve
skipped your pre-workout meal, then at that point the body
is basically going to be bulletproof against fat gain after the
workout. If you haven’t eaten your pre-workout meal and
you’re actually a little bit glycogen depleted. So you don’t
have to worry too much about the type of carbohydrate or
overdoing it on the carbohydrates, within reason. The
general recommendation though is about 0.5 grams of
carbohydrate per pound of body weight. 0.5 grams per
pound. So if you’re 150 lbs. you’d be looking right around 75
grams of carbohydrate which is going to be about 300
calories or so. So hope that helps and great questions.
And then finally we have one more call in question.
Daniel asks: Hi Ben, love your podcast. My name is Daniel, I’m from
Israel. I’d like to ask a question for your next podcast about
the difference between rowing, running and swimming in
intensity, calorie burning and interval training. Is there a
benefit for rowing instead of running or rowing instead of
swimming? And if you row and do not run, can you achieve
the same goals of body image and condition? Thanks a lot.
Bye.
Ben answers: So the deal with rowing machines Daniel, is that when you
compare them with swimming, you actually end up burning
more calories with the rowing machine if you’re using it
properly. What I mean by that is if you’re pulling with your
thighs, your stomach, your hips, your torso, your calves and
your arms as you’re supposed to on a rowing machine and
making it a full body motion, you’re going to get up getting
just about as many calories burned as if you were running at
a pretty intense pace on a treadmill. You will see a lot of
people sit down on a rowing machine at a gym and just kind
of do some ginger pulling with their arms or push with their
legs and not do much pulling with their arms. Those people
really aren’t using the rowing machine effectively. But when
used effectively, you get a ton of benefits especially in your
upper arms, your upper back and your shoulders and also in
your glutes from that push off with the rowing machine. Now
I’m not a huge fan of doing long bouts of training on the
rowing machine. I’ve actually had that damage the low back
of some of my clients before when they’re trying anywhere
from a 20 to a 45 minute bout on the rowing machine. So
what we go for instead is to use the rowing machine as an
interval as part of a workout. So for example, if you’re doing
an upper body workout or even just a full body weightlifting
type of workout after you finish each circuit of exercises that
you’re doing – let’s say you’re doing five or six exercises, you
pause, you go over to the rowing machine, you row hard for
500 meters or for 1000 meters or four two minutes or for
four minutes and then you get off and continue your routine
and that gives you a great cardio burst in the middle of your
routine. Rowing machines – because of the type of muscles
that they use in a similar way a swimmer, you will notice that
you’ll gain just a little bit of mass, especially in your chest
and your forearms and your shoulders when you use a
rowing machine. So it can be good for those esthetic
purposes as well. I personally will hop on a rowing machine
about once a week because it is something that my body isn’t
used to, because I’m not doing it as much as I’m doing, say,
swimming, bicycling or running. So it’s a great way for me to
burn a lot of calories very quickly. Because I’m not an
efficient rower. And because I don’t do rowing very much,
I’m not very efficient at it, it’s something that I make it a
point to throw in just to help out a little bit with my calorie
burning and my conditioning. So make sure that you row
with proper form. If you do, you’re going to burn more
calories than swimming, as many as running and it’s also
going to be really beneficial for strength building and
physical experience. So, great question.
And we’re going to have a special message and then move on
to this week’s interview with Robbie Ventura.
Ben: Hey folks, this is Ben Greenfield and I’m here today with a
guy who was a professional cyclist for 12 years and actually
spent his last four years as a member of the US Postal Service
cycling team which you may recall was the same team that
Lance Armstrong rode with and this guy was a competitive
racer when he was riding on the dirt, road, and track since
the age of seven years old. Over that time, he had over 70
victories during his professional career. He was a member of
the US World Team. He rode the Track World
Championships and he is now a cycling coach, serves as
director of Cycle Ops Training. He owns Vision Quest
Training and he is also someone you may recognize from TV,
because he’s now with Versus Television and is a
commentator on all of the Tour de France coverage for
Versus. Robbie Ventura is on the call today and Robbie, how
are you doing?
Robbie Ventura: Doing great. Doing super. We got a great day here in Chicago
and just driving my bike to the airport and want to talk
training.
Ben: Awesome. Well Robbie knows a lot about training. So Robbie,
I guess my first question for you is you’ve done a lot of
professional cycling, we have a lot of cyclists and triathletes
who listen to the show and I’m personally curious as well –
what exactly does a typical training protocol look like in
those build weeks? In the crunch time leading up to the Tour
de France? What type of workouts are you guys doing?
Robbie Ventura: For the Tour de France athletes, it’s significantly different
than the recreational athlete. Even the very, very serious
recreational athlete. I consider myself a pretty serious
recreational athlete. Now I train between 8 and 12 hours a
week which is a lot of training time. We even have 15 hours…
and it’s nowhere near the amount of volume that the Tour de
France athletes train, and the reason that they can absorb
that volume is because really it’s all they do. They eat, sleep
and recover pretty much the rest of the day so they can
handle training 5, 6 hours a day, day after day. Whereas even
if we had the time as recreational athletes, because we have
families and kids and jobs and yard work and other things to
do, we just can’t afford ourselves the recovery necessary to be
able to handle those loads. So leading up to the Tour de
France, a lot of times these riders will do between 25 and 30
hours, maybe a month out. And the neat thing about the
preparation for the Tour de France is a lot of times they do it
on the exact course they’re going to race. Just like (Eddie
Nelson) trains for an Ironman or trains for a 40k time trial,
being as specific as they can be is really important those last
two months before the Tour de France. So much so that they
even race the (unintelligible) a lot of times, which is similar
road, similar courses, similar times as the Tour de France to
kind of give them that last minute sharpening of the blade so
to say. Oftentimes the first week of the Tour de France
creates that last two weeks of training. The first week of the
Tour de France is easy and these riders can recover. They’re
going to want to train all the way to the Tour de France with
very, very little recovery week. Because they use the first
week of the tour to recover. Because they… this is a GT rider.
A sprinter will take a different approach because they’re
sprinting in that first week of the Tour de France so they’re
going to take a rough week and a little bit of a taper the week
before. So this year, Tour de France is different. They race
hard from the gun. Therefore the riders rest significantly
more than they usually do leading to the tour.
Ben: Gotcha. Now what would a workout look like? Like an
average workout? Can you give me an idea in terms of like an
interval training session or something like that of what a
cyclist would be doing?
Robbie Ventura: For the Tour de France, it’s not what you think. They don’t
do a lot of intervals per se leading up to the Tour de France.
They actually go ride the climbs pretty much at race space
and that’s kind of their interval. Sometimes that climb may
be 30 minutes. Sometimes that climb may be an hour but
they try to ride that climb at the same pace or same watts per
kilo as they would in a race. Sometimes they finish it off with
an attack or something like that kind of predicting what the
race might shape out. A lot of the interval training is actually
done significantly earlier in the year when they’re really
focusing on those original energy systems like the VO2, that
short term energy system or some of the longer steady state
stuff. But a lot of the professional athletes allow the terrain to
create their interval. So they’ll go out and say hey, I’m going
to go climb up Mustang Canyon four times today. Not so
much worried about the exact time of the interval, but they
really want to stimulate the energy system that they’re
focusing on. Because if you train as much as these guys do
(unintelligible) and doing that kind of stuff… they do far less
than that than let’s just say a recreational athlete with
limited time. Because when you have limited time, you want
to really make sure the workouts are concise and measurable
and repeatable. Therefore the interval work for a 90 minute
training session is much more specific than these guys going
out for six hours and getting, let’s just say, 1 to 10 minute
efforts in throughout the six hours.
Ben: That makes sense. Now you had mentioned recovery, and
we’ll talk about recovery a little bit later. For those of you
who want to know how these guys recover from a workout
like that. But before we do, I got a couple of questions for you.
In terms of strength training or resistance training, whatever
you want to call it or something like say plyometrics –do you
in your experience see a lot of professional cyclists using
something like that?
Robbie Ventura: You know, a lot of cyclists use weight training as almost a
break, mentally, and to keep themselves just strong and
resistant to injury. They don’t necessarily build a lot of
strength because that’s going to make them faster in a road
race or a time trial. A lot of times the strength training that
they do is really to get their heart rates up. They do some
stuff where it’s a lot of high efforts extended over a minute so
it’s a great way to keep their heart rate up and to keep their
intensity up without using their bicycle. And also they want
to create a lot of durability so they do a lot of functional
movements. They do squats. They do sometimes plyo work.
Some explosiveness. The track sprinters and the short
distance riders tend to lift a little bit more weight thinking it
might help but there’s not a lot of research on actual pure
strength and how it affects athletes’ ability to produce power
– steady state power. And there’s not a lot of correlation
between people who can lift more weight and do more power
in a time trial. There’s a slight correlation with a sprinter,
like a track sprinter or a Keirin rider being able to lift a lot
more weight. It might give them a little more advantage on
the high efforts and their ability to tolerate more lactate,
their ability to tolerate more high intensity and muscle
damage. Because for a time trial or a Tour de France rider,
there’s not a huge correlation with being stronger and being
faster on the bike. But there is a correlation between athletes
who are functionally fit, well balanced, strong and being able
to not get injured as often. So I think a lot of athletes do it a,
as a break mentally and to get some high work in and
become stronger but they also do it because they really want
to do everything they can to eliminate lower back problems,
knee injuries, hip injuries and things like that that
sometimes plague cyclists and triathletes for that matter.
Ben: Did you do much weight training when you were riding
professionally?
Robbie Ventura: As a youngster I did a lot of it, because I didn’t know any
better and I did a lot of squats and I did a lot of plyometrics
work. I even did some speed skating stuff. And I actually
believe it helped my strength a little bit and I also believe it
made me really strong and really (unintelligible). I didn’t get
injured much at all in my career and I attribute it to a lot of
the weight work I did when I was 17 to 25 years of age. But
after the age of about 25, I switched completely from (audio
cut) single legged squats using a weight vest, doing some
lunges, doing lateral lunges, doing some balance work on the
ball, doing a lot more core stability work and my power – my
explosive power and my sprints – didn’t go down at all. But I
was able to train more volume on the bike in the wintertime
with less damage to my muscles. So I ended up kind of
morphing my strength training into more functional training
later in my career and I think it was a good move.
Ben: Interesting. Interesting. So, in terms of actual nutrition – to
move on here and talk about something a little bit different,
obviously during the tour, people are needing to restore their
carbohydrate levels, restore their glycogen levels post-
workout – now when you’re looking at somebody who has
gone through a typical day of the tour, what are you typically
seeing in terms of how much fuel and the type of fuel
consumed during a typical tour stage and also after. In terms
of both calories, carbohydrates, things of that nature. Are
there any specific volumes that are pretty standard across the
board?
Robbie Ventura: Well since you’re saying… even when I’m talking about
weight training, the elite professional cyclist – as far as… just
the amount of focus and specificity that it takes to be a cyclist,
I’m not recommending that recreational athletes, people
doing Ironman and people just training less than 15 hours a
week – I do believe that strength training plays a huge role in
making them better athletes and creating – maintaining that
muscle mass we lose as we get older. So I think there’s a
place for weight training for cyclists and triathletes. When
you think about cyclists, when you think about triathletes, 98%
of them – some of the things that we’re talking about don’t
apply because these professional cyclists –the Tour de
France rider – that’s all they do. And they don’t want to be
necessarily great athletes. They want to be great cyclists. And
I think there’s… sometimes when people hear what the
professionals do, they go out and they try to mimic that or
they hear that that works for Levi Leipheimer and it really
doesn’t work for a lot of people outside of Levi Leipheimer
that normally just want to get fit or be better bikers. So as far
as calorie consumption, a lot of the guys in the Tour de
France, they don’t focus so much on how many
carbohydrates versus how many protein, sugar or fat and all
those different things. They really want to get the volumes in
that they need and they’re just incredible processors of fuel.
They can process a Payday or a Twix bar probably just as
efficiently as they can process a Cliff bar. I know there are
going to be nutrition people that argue that until the cows
come home, but for me and professionals… and if you look at
some of these (cut bags) in the Tour de France, there are
candy bars, there’s Coke, there’s little pastries, there’s cream
cheese pastries. There are turkey sandwiches, there’s all sorts
of food because when you’re intaking that much volume of
food – they’re probably taking in 400 calories an hour on
average from the start of the race and the first hour of riding,
they’re staying between five and seven hours – so they’re
taking between 300 and 400 calories an hour. That’s
absolutely all they can process when they’re working as hard
as they are, so they don’t want to take in more than that
because it’s a waste of energy. It’s the amount of calories
they’re trying to consume is more important to them than
the actual makeup of those calories I believe. Especially kind
of later in the day when they want sugar, they want some
caffeine, they want something that tastes good that they
really want to crave… because after 21 days of racing six or
seven hours a day, eating something that’s really nutritious
but doesn’t taste that well they’re going to choose not to eat
and that’s the worst thing that can happen. It’s better for
them to eat something, even though it’s absolutely not ideal
because it tastes good than nothing at all because they just
can’t get down a power bar after 21 days of racing. So I think
400 calories is kind of that magic number these guys try to
hit and they try to hit at least two bottles an hour, and if it’s
really, really hot they sometimes go up to (inaudible) bottles
an hour.
Ben: Do you really see much of a focus on say like liquids versus
solids or is it just kind of whatever you can get your hands on?
Robbie Ventura: Well the higher the intensity, the more liquids they try to get
their calories from. If the intensity is low, they’d much rather
eat their calories because it’s more satisfying and they don’t
need the… they can give up a little bit of the energy that it
takes to digest a Cliff bar. But if the intensity is high, they
don’t want to waste the energy in digesting something that’s
solid and they’ll choose liquid calories more often times.
Ben: Gotcha. Now obviously related to nutrition and I really don’t
want to touch on the doping scandal because that’s a horse
that gets kicked to death, but in terms of just sports
performance supplement in general – everything from
creatine to nitric oxide to alanine to all these things that are
kind of generally recognized as safe when it comes to doping
at least or illegal performance enhancing supplements – are
there nutritional supplements that are real popular among
cyclists that are also considered safe, that you’re familiar
with?
Robbie Ventura: I think that getting enough vitamin D, getting enough
vitamins and trace elements and minerals I think is the big
push for endurance athletes right now. Getting your branch
chain aminos, getting enough glutamine when you’re really
working hard and tearing up muscle and things like that…
but to be honest, earlier in my career, I was trying to figure
out what vitamins I needed, what supplements made the
most sense, what worked, what made me feel better. And I
would say later in my career I ended up taking just a
multivitamin. Actually a liquid multivitamin called Isogenics.
That was pretty much all I took later in my career. And I
really tried to keep things as simple as possible, because part
of it was just… when you start to take too many supplements
and you’re trying something like – what’s the popular one?
Optagen. It’s just one more thing you have to do. And then
you feel like you have to do that. It does make a difference.
You really don’t know if it’s your training or the supplement.
So I was actually told way back, does this stuff work? I’m
sure it’s something that might work for some people, not
others. And if you have something that’s legal and safe and it
works well for you… whether it’s a placebo effect or whether
it works, it’s good to try. You just can’t rely or get too many
of those thing that you’re taking because it becomes difficult,
especially if you’re traveling or out on the road or if you don’t
have it, you feel like you need it, and different things like that.
So later in my career I really stripped myself of all
supplements or all ergogenic aids or anything like that. And
to be honest my life got a whole lot easier and I could focus
more on my training and I was much more consistent.
Ben: Gotcha. Okay. In terms of recovery techniques, obviously in a
multi-stage race like the Tour and also in the training leading
up to the Tour, you’ve already explained that the level of
training is over and above what the average recreational
exerciser or even the serious age grouper is going to do. But
do you have recovery techniques that kind of go beyond the
whole rest, ice, compression, elevation or the occasional ice
bath the average person is doing? In other words, are there
fringe techniques that you find to be more useful for recovery?
Robbie Ventura: Well I think the thing that you mentioned actually are the
things that work the best. Truly the things that work the best.
I think the one thing you didn’t mention was when I recover,
I really make 100% focus on my sleep. I think people try to
figure out hey I’m going to wear these compression stockings
and I’m going to go lay on a grounded mattress. The
grounding technique. All those things are great. I think
they’re helpers. But the number one key element in terms of
success is good sleep. It doesn’t just mean sleeping a long
time. It means getting good quality sleep, good REM, good
deep sleep, uninterrupted sleep in a room that’s cool and
dark. Trying to create an environment in which you can
really sleep well. That is the real true best way to recover, to
allow yourself to sleep great. And sometimes when you’re
really fatigued and your muscles are really broken down…
chart sleeping well is the hardest thing to do. So you have to
train yourself, it’s just like cycling. You got to become a good
sleeper and I think if you can do that, whether you’re doing
the Tour de France, doing an Ironman or you’re doing
Olympic triathlon, being able to sleep well in different
circumstances… because when you travel to different races
and go to hotels, you have to have a routine at a hotel as well
when you don’t have all the things you have at your house
that allow you to sleep well. I think sleep is number one.
Obviously compression is great. We use NormaTech in
Vision Quest all the time. NormaTech is a big sponsor of
Vision Quest coaching and in all of our facilities we try to
have some recovery booths… those compression booths that
you saw me demonstrating at the Tour de France. I’m a big
proponent of lots of hydration and a good recovery drink if
you have it, or a good meal after a hard ride to start that
repairing quickly and then just trying to relax your brain a
little bit. Relax your mind and focus, a massage. A lot of
people hear that a massage is good and it’s like ok, I just did
a really hard ride I’m going to get my massage. Massage is
another thing we have to get used to. It’s another process
that your body – if not prepared for it, might reject a little bit.
You may actually have damage from a deep massage if you’re
not careful. So again, learning what your body responds to
well, working with a massage therapist, understanding what
your body needs and how deep you want your massage to be
and really getting the recovery routine is probably your best
bet especially when the volumes and the intensity get way up
there months before a big competition.
Ben: Yeah. It’s a really interesting point because I personally
coach many triathletes and many times I’ll get an email the
week before a race or a phone call a few days before a race
asking some of these questions about how can I sleep better?
Do you have any tips for me to get to sleep because I’m
nervous. Do you have any tips on a good massage therapist I
could work with and these are things people need to be
thinking about during the training to really get optimum
results.
Robbie Ventura: Absolutely and I think people wait too long. They wait until
they’re cracked before they start working on their recovery
and a lot of times they’re not cracked… so a month before the
competition after they’ve had their biggest volume or their
biggest week of training, and by that time those habits need
to have been made by then. It’s almost a little bit too late and
by that time, you don’t want to start experimenting, right?
You want to almost say ok, I’ve learned this from last time.
I’m going to try to sleep well because that’s also something I
have to get in, if I do get a massage, I’m going to get a really
light one just to make sure that it works. And if I’m going to
do compression and stuff like that, I’m not going to go crazy,
I’m going to start soft or start easy and gradually ramp up
the pressure or ramp up the time and make sure what I’m
doing is actually working and I’m not trying to crash
everything at once.
Ben: Right. Folks, by the way if you have questions about the
things we’ve discussed so far in terms of nutrition, training,
strength training, interval training, any of that – be sure to
leave it as a comment on the post that will go along in the
Shownotes to this interview with Robby. Robby I have kind
of a final question for you. Maybe a fun question. But what
I’m wondering is if you have some examples of extreme
cycling workouts or extreme feats of human performance
during a training session or a race that you’ve observed in
the time you’ve spent among professional cyclists… we hear
things like stories about swimmers going out and doing a
10X1000 swimming set or runners going out to a track and
throwing down a 25X800 workout. Do you have any
examples of extreme workouts that you’ve observed in the
time you’ve spent in professional cycling?
Robbie Ventura: Well I think what’s amazing about some of the training… and
I never did the Tour de France… I never put in the volume
that some of these guys do, but the thing I find interesting
about professional cyclists and some of the things they can
handle is… not necessarily one specific training day… but
guys, you hear stories about them doing back to back to back
to back 5000 to 6000 kilojoules days and just to do one
5000 kilojoules day is very, very difficult. But to do that day
after day after day for four or five days in very, very hot
conditions – because when you throw heat into a workout, it
really kind of takes the workout off by 10 to 15% depending
on how hot it actually is. And to do 5000 and 6000 kilojoules
a day in the heat I think is something that… I have never
been able to do and that’s always been a limiter of mine. Just
one big day and then I need a couple of days to recover
whereas these guys like (inaudible) and Leipheimer and
Armstrong, they can do 5000 and 6000 kj days one after the
other. I just can’t believe they can recover and do those
things. It’s really amazing and it’s a testament to not only
their ability to train but how much they have trained because
to be able to do that stuff, you have to have years and years
and years of aerobic based training and aerobic driving
under your belt and I get a kick out of athletes that have a lot
of time to train and they try to do these huge volume based
and they can do one of them and sometimes they can do two
of them. But unless you have that base, no matter how
talented you are, you’re just not going to be able to actually
grow from those types of workouts and nothing in particular,
but just the fascination with the amount of volume, the
amount of work these guys can put in and actually go from
(unintelligible) like most athletes would do under those types
of stress.
Ben: Interesting. And it seems like a lot of the things that you’ve
talked about today in terms of proper sleep, proper fueling
during and after a workout, proper recovery protocols as well
as possibly a little bit of strength training or body balance
training to allow for injury prevention and then
consistency… a lot of that is really what it takes to do these
day after day hard training sessions, is the impression I’m
getting from you.
Robbie Ventura: And it takes time. I think people that want to be good aerobic
athletes, you can’t rush the process. And that’s the biggest
mistake I find with Vision Quest, some of our Ironman
triathletes. Even our Kona qualifiers and our high level
Ironman athletes, is it takes four or five years for your body
really to become aerobically fit and then it takes another five
years after that to really maximize that. I rode my bicycle for
probably 35 years, almost 35 years. I turn 40 soon… maybe
closer to 30 years and I grew my aerobic system for 20 some
of those years and I trained hard and I trained long and it
took that long before I felt I was maxed out. So I think for
aerobic athletes, they need to be patient. They need to be
really patient and they need to over-train a little bit. I think
there’s some benefits to overtraining to kind of understand
what those limits are and then realize when you pass the
overtraining mark and then back it off. I think you need to
over-train a few times to understand what those limits are
and to push those limits, but once you understand where
they’re at you run up to them and you just try to gradually
push those out. You don’t try to make a 20% volume increase
in two weeks or three weeks or four weeks. It’s small
increments over time that win the race.
Ben: Right. Well Robbie, this has been great advice. Where can
people find out more about you and what you do?
Robbie Ventura: www.visionquestcoaching.com. We have a great team of
athletes that we work with. We have a bunch of facilities in
the Chicago area. We also have one at David’s World Cycle in
Orlando, Florida. They do a great job down there. We have
camps in Santa Rosa in the spring, they’re a lot of fun. We
actually try to mimic those high volumes that the pros do and
we take care of all their needs from their laundry to exactly
everything… just like a professional. And these athletes are
surprised at how much volume they can withstand when we
basically do all the work for them. So all they have to focus
on is riding their bicycle, recovering through massage or
massage therapy and we always have great guests that come
to our camp who do talks. And if you want to grow your
aerobic engine, you want to become a better cyclist, you want
to become a better triathlete… I can’t emphasize enough how
those camps or how those blocks of training really make the
big differences. I think it’s better they kind of do a couple of
camps – there are a few camps in the spring rather than try
to train every 3rd day long in your house which is a struggle
and get more of a 5 or a 6 day big block where you don’t have
anything to focus on but recovery for if you really wanted to
develop aerobically as well as basically immersing yourself in
a culture where you’re learning bike handling, you’re
learning pacing, you’re learning power based training, you’re
learning everything there is need to know about run, bike
and swim and you’re basically getting this (unintelligible) for
six days, you come out a better person and you really reset
your gauges in terms of aerobically as well as your knowledge
of cycling when you do stuff like that.
Ben: Yeah I agree, I’m also a big fan of camps. If you can find one
to go to, it’s well worth it. So, Robbie… what’s that?
Robbie Ventura: I said our camps are great. We’re actually doing one in Las
Vegas with Gordo Bern in October and then our next camp is
in the spring in Santa Rosa. So check out our website
www.visionquestcoaching.com. We’d love to help anybody
out who wants to be into aerobic training. That’s all.
Ben: Alright, well Robbie thanks for coming on the call today. I
appreciate the time.
Robbie Ventura: Thank you very much, and hopefully everyone will train
smart, have fun and remember it’s a process that’s the good
stuff. It’s not the results.
Ben: Awesome. That’s good advice. Alright, have a good one.
For personal nutrition, fitness or triathlon consulting, supplements, books or DVD’s
from Ben Greenfield, please visit Pacific Elite Fitness at http://www.pacificfit.net