BARNEY - A Dialogue With Danto

8/13/2019 BARNEY - A Dialogue With Danto

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ADialogueon

Ma tthew Barney and Arthur C Dan toon Joseph Beuys

RI TMATTHEW BARNEYR WINGRESTR INT2 96aDOCUMENTATIONSTILLPHOTO: MICHAELREESC M AT T HEW BARNEYC O L B T E S V M A r T H E WBABM EVANO G L AO ST O NEGALLERY MSW VOWK

Matthew Barney andIhad met but hardly knew one another when it wasproposed th at I discuss with himHeal the Knife That uts theWound hi sforthcoming exhibition with Joseph Beuysatthe D eutsche G uggenheimMuseum . I had met Beuys and had even talked with him in NewYork thoughI shirked the chance a t a public conversation at the tim e of his G uggenheimshow. Now Barney was in Berlin and I New York mak ing face-to-face inter-change out of the question. He was however amenab le to and even enthu -siastic about t he idea of a conversation by e-mail and so though Matthewwen t from Berlin to Reykjavik to Croatia durin g tbe sh ort period of our corre-sponde nce our epistolary to and fro began . found as I hope those lookingover our shoulders will find that this was an exciting dialogue surprisingopen and w itb flights of spec ulation on both sides . I certai nly felt I knewMatthew Barney s art and mindagreat deal better than when we began andI was sorry when it had to stop in the interes t of getting this first issue of theAmerican versiono Modem Paintersbefore tbe reading public. -AC .D

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ArthurC Danto:I understandyou'respending time with the Beuyspeople in Berlin. I have a memory of the youthful a ttend ants w hoaccompaniedhim toNew York whenhehadhis showat the Guggenheim[1979] .They were all somewhat menacing, wearing red jumpsuits,and had the air of militia. BeuyshimselfIliked. I met him that year atRonald Feldm an F ine Arts, where he showedAus Berlin NeuesvomKojoton[From Berlin:Newsfrom the C oyote], an installation involvingdirt, miners' lamps, and coppercanesleaning againstawall. Itwasnoteasy toget a clear explanation out of him, but th e work, as always in hiscase, had an air of great hu man significance.Acurator tried to organizea conversation betweenus,bu tIdid not feel up toit.I may havemissedsomething unforgettably im portant.Onmymost recenttrip toBerlin,1 saw aprofound work ofhisat theHamburgerBahnhof TramStop[1976],whichIfelt ought to have beenconsidered the true m emorial to the murdered Jews of Europe, rathe rthan P eter Eisenmann's monum ent. It conveysa senseof unspeakablesuffering. It was as if the train brought those destined for death to thelast stop, after which they had to proceed byfoottotheftirnaces.t waslike some metap hor from Dante, even if, literally, itwasno more than atram stop, rusty,bent unusab le. I always responded emotionallytothefelt and th e fat tha t defined, at least for me,thefragility of hum an beingsinaworld atwar.TherewasabookbyLudwig Bemelmans [a uthor ofthe M adeline series of children's booksed.J with the achingly m ovingtit le^rcYouHungry?AreYouCo/r? Hisworld and Beuys's reallywasth ewholeworld atwar somethingIha d also lived through.I'dlike totalkalittle abou tHealthe Knife That uts theWound I

think o ur dialogue wouldbegreatly enhance d ifyouweretosay whatythink are the main topics of the conversation between you and BeuysAreyou, for example, addressing the same subjects or th e same kind subjects?Are youengagedbythe same social and political causes thinform B euys's work?Orlet'spu tit likethis:thereiswhatwemight speak ofas thewoof Beuys. Itislike a mythic overlay on o urworld and serves as a kinof moral critique. Is his world congruen t with the world of MatthewBarney ? Is there a world of Matthew Ba m e/ ? Do you, sotospeak liin the same world as he?

Matthew Barney:I want first to confess tha t T'm a bit n ervous, a1feel like Im in an unfamiliar position with this project (both withe exhibition, and this discussion). I've tried to avoid involvemenin curatorial projects. It's interesting how often artists are asked tplaythisrole thesedays.In thiscase,Itrust Nancy Spector [curato rHealthe KnifeThat uts theWound]andIfeellikethereissomethivaluable to be learned throug h the process. I should be clear, thoug hthat I don't consider myself a curator of this exhibition, bu t to have useful dialogue abo ut the subject ofBeuys'swork in relationtomy ovrand to assist Nancy with the exhibition, requires alevelof self-analysthat I'm not accustomed to. I tend to find it difficult to talk aboumy ovm work. It bas been m uch easier for me to retrac e the in ternalogic of my practice, and in doing th at, to find the more concrete anexternal aspects of it (which have been internalized), tha t can providentry points into a conversation.6 4 MODERN MBER 20 06


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Ioften e ar th a tIwilllose m y abilityto relooorteth efertile point of initiation,a n d this fear grows strongerthe deeperIdelv e intoany given projeot.

Heal the Knife That Cuts the Wound comes at an interestingtime for me. I feel that I'm a t the end ofmyforay into feature-lengthfilmmak ing. That's not to say I won't return to it at some point, but Ineedtoreconsidersomeofthe real-timeactionsand performancesIwasmaking beforeIstartedThe remaster ycle[199 4-200 2]. I continueto feel engaged with the problem of making narrative sculptu re, butIfeel that th e narrative canbedescribed an other way, andona differentscale, without lesseningitspotentialtogenerate objects. For that reason,it feels quite useful to metolook at object-based performance from the'60sand '70s.

Since this exhibition was suggested to me, I've been returningto Beuys's work for the first time since I graduated Yale in 1991.Looking again at this material has m ade me realize that, as much as1feel an affinity to his work, I've had some significant miscon ceptionsabout it. The main misunderstanding is in regard to its essentiallyChristian structure and proposal. Beuys's oeuvre has one center,whetheryouconsider tha t centertobe Beuys, or if you followhislogicofth e sun state, which sketches his vision ofademocratic state ofinterconnectedness and balance. Somehow that didn't register forme when I first came across the work. Perhaps it's that our currentinternation al political condition makes onemore conscious(and weary)of domin ant religious structures. I'm told that ayoung er generation ofGerman a rtists is notsointerested in Beuys; I'm w ondering if modelsorganized with a distinct center are less useful to younger p eople. Anartist from Beuys's generation could align his practice with the m orebinaiy philosophies of Hegel or Rudolf Steiner, for example, while anartist from the current generation would naturally gravitate towardsomething pluralistic, along the lines of Deleuze.The remaster yclecould be considered in these terms, in that it's a system that seeksfreedom bydecentralizingitsenergy, attemptingtohybridize itself intoawebofavaiiable cultural vehicles.Mysculpture-m aking sy.stem was developed as a personal tool tonavigate through the wo rld, and this tool definitely gives a privileged

Beuys wo uldn' t h a v e fearedthat, He though t h e wa s do ingsome thing more important th a nart. He was praotLoing a religionofh e al in g if you believe him ,

role to intuition. Withthissystem,I have alsoattemptedtocreateamapof my creative process. This map feels necessary to m e. There's a wayin which I fear tha t I will lose my ability to relocate the fertile point ofinitiation, the creative impulse th atonemustalwaysreturnto ,and thisfear grows stronger the d eeperI delve intoanygivenproject.Sothe mapis likea trail of bread crumb s that ensuresaway backtothe beginning.Beyond its personal function, this system was built to com municatewith and provoke the viewer. Its narrative is more of a proposal, andhas an intentionally open-ended struc ture that invites the audience tocomplete the story. And as the primary objective of this system is togenerate sculpture, the narrative remains abstracta wayto leavespacefor more specific d istillation in the form of sculpture. I believe theseideas are sym pathetic with those of Beuys.

In terms of your question Do youthinkyou livein the same worldashe? :on the m ost basic level, I would sayno.The models and toolsthatIneed are different from thoseheemployed. On the other han d, ifwe're onthevergeof a Third W orldWar thisresponse might needtobereconsidered.I definitelyagreeviithyouaboutTramStop Itismonumental.

CD I'd like to talk in a general way about Beuys, and you r cu rrentperception of him.Ihave written about him on a couple of occasions,bnt I can't pose in any way as an expert. He was, I think, one ofth eoceanictalents ofthe 1970s, andoneofthe main points of reference forunderstand ing what happened to art in our time.For one thing, it would never have occurred to me that he was

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Through athleticsIrealized tha tIh a danab ilitytouse m ybody asatooltowardacreative end, an d th at my b od ycould belon g toasculpture-making lan gu ag e, as Beuyshadproven.Iunderstood tha t the com petitive athlete h a s the ability tob e simultaneously inside a n doutside of their bo d y MBafter athletics was replaced byartas the centerofmy life. M ost ofthose fouryearswere spent making durational experiments with mybodyinthestudio.Iwas compelled from thestartto putmy ownexperience into the thing s I was making, and my life up to that poin twas dominated byathletics.I realized that throu gh those experiencesI hadanability to use my body as a tool toward a creative end, andifmybody could belong to a sculpture-making language, as artistslike Beuys had proven, then this crossover into the stud io would feelvery natura l tome.I came to the understanding that the competitiveathlete has the ability tobe simultaneously inside and outside of theirbody.They have the a bility to perceive the fieldinplan, section, andelevation as they move throug h it. I believe tha tField Dressingwasthe first work I made th at suggested th at kind of abstraction of thebody.Itwas a departure from theDrawing Restraint experimentsI was making at the tim e, involving physical obstacles thatIhadtoovercome in order to make a drawing.Inthese my bodywascentraland concrete. B ut inField Dressingthe body became a character Istopped identifyingitas me), and the c harac ter was split and activein two spaces simu ltaneously.

An even more liberating dep arture cam e afterFieldDressing v aththe Otto/Houdini works from 1991-92,where1employed actors andestablishedanarrative. Character zones were developed that wouldhave protagonistic or antagonistic qualities, but those zones werevisualized as existing within one largerbody.These works started tosatisfy an interestIhad in being present in the work, withinmybody,yet being multiple.Around the timeof FieldDressing I was reading reativity andPerversion [1985] by the French psychoanalyst Janine Chassegnet-Smirgel. Thebook was a reexamination of Freud's conceptofperversion. She suggested that perversion is adimension of the hum anpsyche common to u s all that has adirect relationshiptocreativity. She

cites texts and art by the Marquis de Sade, Hans Bellmer, and oth ersto describe an impulse thatwastryingtoovercome its condition in theworld, freeing itself from the con straints of pate rnal law by erodingthe difference between gender and generation. ..internalizing theworld as a wayof breaking it down to an undifferentiated, primordial,or excremental state. This language was useful forme, and helpedorganize some of the th oughts I was having at the time.

The working title of the ex hibition in BerlinhiisbeenHeal the KnifeThatCuts theWound.This, of course,isa crudely translated version ofone ofBeuys stitles,IfYouCutYourFinger andagethe Knife[in theoriginal German ,Wenn Du Dichschneidest verbinde nicht den FingersonderndasMesser^.Myattractionto this titlehad beeninthe way thatit blurs the difference between interiority and exteriority.Inmy ownwayof readingthis,oras a wayof applying itto myown universe, thereis no difference between the knife and th ewound.They are aspects ofthe same, greater organism.For practitione rs of Cando mbl, an Afro-Brazilian religion, thedeity Ogun is the godofboth iron and war. Asthecreatorofiron,he makesthebladeto cutawaythe primordial forest and createcivilization. With th is same knife, he has the ability, too, to take th elife of anoth er.Inthe way that Candom bl uses nature as a lensforunderstanding the world, Ogunis particularly attractivetomeasa creation myth whose function is todescribeabalance betweencreative and destructive energy. On some level. The remasterCyclewas designed to figuratively destroy itselfinthe proce ss of itsmak ing. As a model of the creative process, it felt necessary to allowfor that to happ en sothat th e system couldbevisualized as potentiallyregenerative. It also felt necessary todescribe a confiict similartotheone proposed by Chasseguet-Smirgel,ofan entity that is tryingtodefeat its destiny asa predeterm ined, differentiated form, though notnecessarily succeeding in th is case.I'm starting tofeel that the exhibition title in Berlin would need toallowfor an internaliza tion of the knife. Inmyeyes, in orde rtoheal theknife/wound, the knife has to be internalized, and even imitated.The titleField Dressingrelatedmore tothe hunter's procedureof

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skinning and eviscerating an animal carcass in preparation forits consumption. The internal space within the body,orfield semptied out, and the orifices are sealed off", creating an organicarchitecture where the drama canbe carried out. CD Maybethe younggeneration ofa rtists disaffected with Beu)^has something to do with the way Beuys made the w arsocentralto his personal myth. I believe,likeyou,that "healing the knife"belongs to amuch wider vision th anitsuse as a w eapona visionin which the m eans an d the sub ject of sacrifice belong to alargerwhole.

Ithink that at least thefirstgeneration ofBeuys sstudents wasput off simply by hispersistence in makingart.JrgImmendorffwho was his student in the '60s, made these gigantic babies andcreated the slogan (in baby talk) Teintunst machen (Don't makeart).In a1966painting, he scrawled thewordsH H auf zumalen(Stop painting) over an impulsively crossed-out bed with Beuys'ssignature hat hun g over the bedpost. Like Brecht's Erstkommtdas Fressen (Grub comes first [from The Threepenny Opera,1928]), ImmendorfFs injunction totreat p aintings like potatoessignaled a determination to make art that washuman ly useful insome basic way. Radical German stud ents arepretty unforgiving.They turn against exactly the onesyou would expect to be theirheroeslike H abermas or Adornoespecially in the late '60s.They mocked Habermas's harelip,and thegirls bared th eirbreasts in Adorno's classes as a sign of contempt. Immendo rfgot involvedinestablishingasortofbaby-land, whichhecalled "Lidlstadt." Lidl was meant to evoke the sound ofababy's rattle, and he used to d rag a block of wood withthe wordLIDLpaintedon it infront ofthe parliament.

Whetherit wasthe policeor the art-school guardswho finallybroke upLidlstadt,Idon't remember.I don 't know if these political ideas inflect th eGerman stude nts today, but attitudes and patterns ofconduct don't u stgoaway.Onthe otherhand art students in Germany,in my experience, are pretty career oriented. Maybe Beuys was tooidealisticto be a modelIthink tha t youwere ontosomething, in 1989, whenyoumadeField

ressingby focusing on a subject th at was much inthe air, namelythe body.Ithas been moreorless the artistic prop erty of womenasa subject, largelyinconsequence ofthe preoccupations of feminism(the idea ofthe body aswounded, or even asawound belonged to th atdiscourse).Ithink frontal m ale nudity was pretty diceyatthe time:think ofall thefiissh atwasmade aboutThe Perfect Momentexhibitionof Mapp lethorpe'swork although at that time AIDSwouldhavebeen

considered a specifically gay male pathology. Wh atyoudid was claimthemalebody notasthe bearer of disease, but an embodiment of healtand bea uty. And you theniatizedto use aterm from phenom enologyathleticism as an attribu te. The body as gendered wasmade availablto you bythe timesit madeit possible for you to be an artist, or at leasthe artist you became.The body in fact became a philosophical subject in the early '70sI publishedabookin1973 calledAnalytical Philosoph y of ActionMy concern was bodily movement as a metaphysical problem , whichwas pretty distant from themoral issues that the body wastoraisein the artworld, and of course athleticism never greatly enteredourdiscussion.But the point youraiseabout the bodily perception availablto athletesof being inside and o utside the bodywould have beenageneral proposition about the hu man body assuch, and not just or no

especially the athle tic body.But you saw the bodyasasitefor sculptu rapossibilities. W hat surprisesmemost Iguess,isseeingthis assomethinthat Beuys had also explored.Ih ardly think of Beuys as having a bodythough people who knew him sayhewastalented as an acrobat. But hiuniform was soimportanttohis m>ththe hunter'svest the boots, thfedorathat one struggled to visualize him as naked undern eath althose accoutrements.Once the body-as-sculpture w as established, you went far beyondthat. The Otto-H oudini modes of using the body were just genius,afar asIam concerned. And goingonto include Gary Gilmore, NormanMailer, and the Texastwo-stepis the height of artistic imagination.Butdemanded, Iwouldhavethought, cinema tic amplification. Thatiswhapuzzlesmesomewhatinyour going backtoprecinematic sculpturebulikeeveryone else.111 have towait andseewhat that means.I want to return to the title ofthe show. T he idea,Iguess,isthat i

the user ofthe knife woundshimself the knife issomehow wounded andneeds to betreated.That implies an ideal ofthe knife and its intendedobjectthe onethatiswoundedas being,as youpu tit part of a wholeThink ofthe great image in ChuangTzu sstor>' ofthe butch er Ting, whocuts the carcass of an oxmerely by inserting the po int of his knife in theempty spaces between the natural p arts, which sort of fall ap art fromone anoth er, without d ulling the knife. This Zen hero is one with thecarcass, and never, accordingly, "wounds the knife."Itnever occurredto me to wonder what th e knife was made of. It could have been m adeof ade, or ob sidian. It needn'tbeiron.Themain thingisthe knowledgeand the skill ofthe wielder, and the waythe carcassisarticulated.MB: IguessIthi nk of Beuys'sbody asbeing at the center of his practiceFor this reason, I feel like I haven't had a primary experience w ith hiswork only secondary experiences with the sculpture and docum entationof his actions.I didfind viewinghisworkat a removeto bevery

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stimulating asa student (as 1did other performance-based work fromtbe late 6 0s and 70sChris Burden, Rudolf Schwartzkogler, MarinaAbramovic and Ulay), and ultimately it influenced my own work invideo and performance. I accepted thatBeuys s body wasa transformer,a conductor, and a tran smitter. W ith the conductive plate of iron underbisfoot, the insulating felt on his head, and with the various antennae inhis hand, all of the conceptual, political, or autobiographical inpu t hadto pass througli the transformer before it could become useful, h ealingenergy and emitted as such.

But this brings me back to the question about a Christian model. Ifthis belief system is about healing and redem ption, and if everythingmust pass through this central woundedbody, or transformer, it startsto suggest a Christian character, or at least a Christian stru cture.Perhap s I m being too simplistic abou t this. Again, if this istrue, I mnot condemn ing the work forit,bu t only wondering if it migbt suggesta reading that makes the younger generation un easy.For me, the exhibition titleHeal theKnife ThatCuts theWound isa kind of existential propo sal. It doesn t suggest that th e knife wouldbeeliminated from the equation, only that it s accepted for what it is. Itremind s me again of Ogun. IfOgun is the creator/destroyer energyinthe blade of the knife, then o ne makes a lifelong contractvvith Ogun. Inthis contrac t, one offers a respect for the knife and its dualistic na tureand in return receives a promise tha t, over time, the opposing energieswill maintain an equilibrium. The contract keeps the knife healthyand the deity bappy.As I unders tand it, Ogun suggests that conflict isinevitable and essential to development in nature .I really like your example fromCbuang Tzu about the butcher Ting.That s beautiful.I visited a m aster sword maker in Japan during oneofmy research trips for Draw ing Restraint 9 [Barney s most recent featurefilm, released in 200 5]. I was looking for some kind of unde rstandin gof the whale-ilensing craft, and thoug ht I should start with Japanesemetallurgy. I was lucky enough to w itness the stage in the developmentofa samurai sword where the blade is given its essential charac ter. Aftermany weeks and many stages of folding and layering the metal, theblade is heated up in an asymmetrical way. More heat is exposed tothe

top of the blade and less heat to tbe blade s edge, wbere a layer of claycovers themetaJ. The master then plunges the red-hot blade into abathof cool w ater, the ceramic shatters, and the blade forms in to acurve. Notwo knives have the same character, or behavior. CD Iguess 1can seewhat you mean by Beuys s body. It wastypicallypresent in the work, either when Beuys was a performer, or when thework referred to Beuys as aphysical pre.sencewounded, for exam ple,or teaching while surroun ded by blackboards. So his body wast rans-formative. Som ethingpasses through it, and that, toyou, suggests theanalogy to Christ, and ultimately to aChristian relationship between hismessage and his auditors. That hasto be undervvTitten by his suffering,as Christ s sufferingis tbe means toour redemption.The German art historian Karlheinz Ludeking just replied to aquestionI sent him, when we firststarted writing toeach other, abou twhy few younger German artists seem to revere Beuys:

Fo rthem his teachings seem to be moreimportant than hiswork. And,as you know,Beuys always talkeda,lot aboutthemysteriesof heworld and abetterjutureand actuallyheldsomerather weird opinions. His mixture ofromanticism andshamanism isperhaps no longer regardeda. iup to datein aworld ruled hyclever calculation. Also, the growing rejectionof hisachievements has certainly been aggravated bythe actthatthedominant art-criticalcirelesin theU Shave never beenin avor of Beuys. RosalindKraussand Yve Alain Bois evenhada little chapterin theirexhibition catalogueL Informe[1996] withthe title Non Joseph Beuys. Bu tthe aversionusuallyseems to befueled mih more by the things Beuyssaid,no tsomuchbywhathecreated.

So accordin g to Lud eking, it seems that his critics can accep t Beuysas an artist but not as a proselytizer. But without the talk, the art isjuststuff.Wh at value does apile of fat have unless it is accomp aniedby the artist s talk of healing? Ditto tbe stack of blan kets. Beuyswasn t into readymad es. The talk and the art go togeth er, like theknife and w ound.

HEAL THE KNIFE THAT CXTTS THE WOUND: MATTHEW BARNEY AND JOSEPHBEiTi sis on view at DeutscheGuggenheim, Berlin, from October2 8to January 14,2007.It travels to the Peggy Guggenheim CollectioninVenice during the 2007 Venice Biennale.MATTHEW BARNEY: DRAWINGRESTRAINT5 on view atthe SanFranciscoMuseum of Modem ArtthroughSeptember17.

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BARNEY - A Dialogue With Danto

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