7/29/2019 2.24.13 The Magical Buffet Interviews Growing Into God Author John R. Mabry

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FEBRUARY 24, 2013

10QUESTIONS WITH JOHN MABRY

Christianity/Catholicism, Interviews, Religion|Leave a Comment

1. What made you decide to write Growing into God: A Beginners Guide to Christian Mysticism?

Ive long been a student of Christian mysticismand a practitioner, too, I might add! I was teaching a

graduate course in Christian mysticism at a local university, when I realized that the only textbooks out there

were either antiquated or hopelessly inept. I decided to write one myself. But because Im me, it isnt a

textbook. I teach, but I dont consider myself an academic. Im a pastorso Im not writing for academics or

even students necessarily, but for ordinary folks. My ideal reader is a Christian who wants to go deeper into

her own tradition, or a non-Christian who wants to see what all the hoopla is about.

2. Readers know what I mean when I say Christianity, but what is Christian Mysticism? What is

the difference?

In my mind there isnt one. Mysticism is the very core of the Christian tradition, regardless of what

denominational lens youre viewing it through. The problem is, most Christians have either forgotten this, or

they dont recognize what they believe as being mystical. Mysticism is the pursuit ofor enjoyment ofunion

with the Divine. Since all Christians believe that they are united with God (or Christ or the Holy Spirit) in some

fashion, all Christians are mystics. But unfortunately, we in the Christian tradition have done a pretty lousy job

of communicating our tradition, even amongst ourselves. Weve made it so sin-centric that weve sapped it of

its joyand thats just not the way of Jesus at all. Christianity isnt about sin or guilt or blame. Its about life

and transformation and making love to God. (There, that should get me on some Christian fuddy-duddys hit

list.)

3. The path of the Christian Mystic has steps leading to Union. Could you

describe each step to my readers

Sure. First, Evelyn Underhill describes a step zero, called Awakening, that kicks

everything off. This is a mystical experience that just kind of comes out of

nowhere and knocks you upside the head. You go, WTF? What the hell was

that? This is kind of the God as heroin dealer model. The first taste is free, but

you know youll want more, and soon youre hooked. Which is good, because the

next step is very hard. The mystics call it Purgation and its the first step in the

classical model. Once youve had an Awakening experience, you see everything in

a new light. You begin to sort through the things in your life, weighing them in

light of the mystical revelation you received. You begin to let go of those things

that are not congruent with your vision, and hold on to those that seem

congruent. Basically, youre sorting the illusory from the Real, based on the brief glimpse of the Real that

youve received.

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Once your done with this sorting, you can settle into a serious meditation practice, which the mystics call

Illumination. In the Illuminated state, you see the Divine in all things. But as you go deeper, you realize that

this is incompletethat in fact, it is the other way around: all things are in God. I call this stage, Enjoyment

because in it you really learn to enjoy the presence of God, and you sink deeper and deeper into an awareness

of the Divine presence.

Finally, you sink so deep that the distance between you and the Divine disappears. The mystics often speak of

this as divine marriage or divinization, but the result is the samethe illusory distinction between the

Creator and the creation is dissolved, and the mystic enters into full and conscious union with the divine. But

this is no sea of bliss. To be one with God means that what God wants, you want, and what God does, you do.

And since Gods primary concern is to heal everything that is wounded or broken, mystics in full union are very

busy people, spending most of their time with the poor and the oppressed.

(Question 4 was skipped because he pretty much answered it in question 3.)

5. In reading Growing into God, the path of the Christian Mystic doesnt seem entirely safe.Could someone attempt this by themselves with just your book for guidance?

No form of mysticism is safe. People blow out their nervous systems doing Kundalini yoga all the time, when

they try it out of a book. Christian mysticism isnt as hard on the bodys electrical system, but youre rightits

not a safe endeavor, either. Its best done within the context of a loving and supportive church community

(there is no such thing as a lone ranger Christian, after all) and for best results, one should see a trained

spiritual director once a month.

6. The Catholic Church features many mystics in their history, but I get the feeling if someone

spoke to a bishop today and said, Im pursuing the path of the Christian Mystic, the Bishops

response would be to back away from you slowly. I guess my question is, whats up with that?

Well, my guess would be such a reaction might have something to do with an overzealous ambition. Its like

the difference between saying Im thinking of going into politics and announcing, Im going to be king of the

world! Going into politics is doable, being king of the world is less likely. And so it is with mysticism. The truth

is that all Christians are called to be mystics, but few ever reach the finish line of full union in this lifetime,

but the good news is, we dont have to. As St. Therese of Lisieux of Liuseaux said, All the way to heaven is

heaven.

On the other hand, if most Christians knew their own tradition better, wed all own up to being on the mystics

path, and there would be far fewer raised eyebrows. Still, your fictional bishop should know better. Instead of

backing away, he should clap a hand to your shoulder and say, Thats a wonderful thing. Ill be praying for

you.

7. Can Union be compared to the Buddhist concept of enlightenment? Is this path just for

Christians?

The stages of the mystical journey are roughly the same in most religious traditions. If you conceive of the

Buddhist Noble Eightfold path as a linear model of spiritual development, and compare that to the model laid

out in the Hindu Yoga Sutras of Pantanjali, and compare that with the Christian model of Purgation,

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Illumination, and Union, youll find amazing similarities. The Hindu and Christian models are the closest. The

Buddhist model does things in a slightly different order, but all the pieces are there. Of course, each tradition

uses a different vocabulary, different metaphors and symbols to describe this journey, but the journey is

basically the same. In my book Im describing the journey as Christians have experienced and spoken about it.

But when you strip away the symbols and language and cultural baggage what you find is the same journey of

the soula human journey.

8. Can you tell us about one of your favorite mystics and why theyre a favorite?

I have so many favorites! I especially love Julian of Norwich, though, because her visions are so rich, so

emotional and loving, and they also challenge the theological notions of her time, albeit in a cannily diplomatic

way. But I also love the practical mysticism of Charles Williams. His occult thriller novels are masterpieces of

both horror and theology. I wouldnt be doing what Im doing today if not for his influence.

9. Whats next for you? Any more books?

Yes, there are always more books! I have a new one coming out from Morehouse/Church Publishing

titled Faithful Generations: Effective Ministry Across Generational Lines. Im also polishing a Christmas novel,and hope to soon start work on a sequel to my horror/comedy/adventure novel, The Kingdom. Meanwhile, my

progressive rock band, Mind Furniture, just did our first gig and we were blown away by the positive response

we get, so well probably put some energy into more live shows, even as we continue working on our next CD.

Our last CD is called Hoop of Flame, and its on iTunes, so I hope youll check it out. Its got a great hymn to

Shiva, and a rock opera where we put God on trial for his crimes against humanity. Its a kick!

10. Part shot! Ask us here at The Magical Buffet any one question.

Have you done any articles on Christo-pagan/Christo-Wiccan rituals or communities? Id love to read that, if so.

I havent, but Id love to. There are so many topics out there, so little time it seems. A great place that has

discussed it from time to time along with a ton of other fascinating topics isThe Wild Huntwebsite.

About John R. Mabry, PhD:

John R. Mabry is a United Church of Christ minister and pastors Grace North Church (Congregational) in

Berkeley, CA. He teaches spiritual guidance and world religions at the Chaplaincy Institute for Arts and

Interfaith Ministry in Berkeley and at the Institute of Transpersonal Psychology in Palo Alto. Among his books

are The Way of Thomas, Faith Styles, and Noticing the Divine.