670 [COUNCIL.]

Motion put and passed. paragraph (a) and substitute the follow-

Clause 28-agreed to.

Postponed Clause 4-Amiendmnent of Sec-tion 6:

The ACTING MINISTER FOR WORKS:This clause was postponed to permit ofthe further consideration of paragraph (c)sub-paragraph (i). I move an amendment-

That the words ''or the wife or husband ofthe owner, or any child of the owner or thewife or husband of the owner'' be struck out,and the following inserted in lieu:-"or anymember of the owaer's family or parent ofthe wife or husband of the owner.''That should be sufficiently comprehensive.

Mr. Thorn: Could the owner take out hismnother-in-lawv?

The ACTING MINISTER FOR WORKS:Yes, she is provided for.

Mr. Raphael: What about grandparents?

The ACTING 'MINISTER FOR WVORKS:They would be members of the family.

Mr. SLEEMAN: While I do not objectto the amendment, I think it could be madeclearer. Under the Child Welfare Act pro-ceedings may be taken in respect of a childagainst the father, mother, stepfather, step-mother, brothers. sisters and grandparents.If those people mayv be sued by the Crownfor the nmaintenance of a child, they shouldbe included in this provision.

Hon. C. G. Latham: I think the amend-ment will include all that you desire.

Amendment p~ut and 1)assed ; the clause,as amended, agreed to.

Postponed Clause .5-Annual and half-yearly licenses:

The ACTING MINISTER FOR WORKS:We were in difficulties respecting the license,not for a full year, but for portion of ayear, and it appeared that before one couldget a license for a portion of a year, onehad to deposit the number plates with thelicensing authority. On examination it isagreed that that is the position. The draft-ing was not as simple as it should have been.I propose to submit two amendments. Thefirst is to strike out of Subelause 2, ))ara-graph (b), the words "iii the next subsec-tion" and insert the words "in this section"in lieu.

Hon. C. G. Lathain: Cannot you put theamendments on the notice paper so that wemay consider them!I

The ACTING MINISTER FOR WORKS:In Subelause 4 I propose to strike out

ing:-

Where in any financial year a first half-year's license has not been issued for a vehicle,no license shall be issued for the vehicle forthe second half-year of that financial year inany ease where that vehicle was licensed (i)for the preceding financial year; or (ii) forthe second hialf-year of the preceding financialy'ear-, unless the number plates of the vehiclewere deposited with the local authority whichissued the Same within 14 (lays after the ex-.piration of such preceding financial year orhalf-yeaqr as the case may be.

I will agree to report progreoss at this stageto enable the proposals to be considered.

Progress reported.

'louse adjourned at 5.32 p.m.

1egtslative Council,Tuesday, 17th September, 1935.

Assent to Bill......................Questions : Electoral Commission, report.. ..

Financial Emergency legislation, position regard-Ing mortgages ............ .. ..

Motions: Trns-Australian railwafy, Kalgoorie-Fremantle section ......................

3lines; Re ion Act, to disallow regulation ..13,1ls : Rur1 Relief Fund, Is. .. .. ..

Trustees Powers Amendment, SR., passed ..Fremnantle (Skinner Street% maInsed Cemetery

Amendment, SR., passed .. .. ..Cremation Act Amendment, report .. ..Judges' Retirement, 2R............... ...Forests Act Amendment 2n. .. ..Brands Act Amendment, 2k. . .....Droving Act Anmendmtent, 2u............

The PRESIDENT tookp.m., alid read prayers.

FARM670870

671

871674678678

678678878693685690

the Chair at 4.30

ASSENT TO BILL.Message from the Lieut.-Governor re-

ceived and read notifying assent to the Hun-bury Racecourse Railway DiscontinuanceBill.

QUESTION-ELECTORAL COhMS-SION REPORT.

Hon. J. CORNELL asked the Chief Sec-retary: 1, Is it intended to lay upon theTable of the House copies of the evidence

[17 SIEPTEMBER, 1935.]

taken, and the report prepared, by% thle lion-orarv Royal Commnission appointed to in-quire into and report upon constitutionaland electoral mlatters ? 2. If so. when ?

Tire CHIEF SECRETARY replied: 1.Ye. 2, Immediately.

QUESTION-FINANOIAL EMERGENCYLEGISLATION.

Position Regarding Mortgages.

Hon. H. SEDDON asked the Chief See-retarv: In view of the statement of the Pre-mier tint the reduction of salaries, pensions,

an'rants under the ]Finaneial EmegecAct will be terminated at thle end of De-cemnber next, will the M1inister advise theHouse what the Government propose to dowith the section of the Act rednejn& inter-est oln mortgages?

The CHIEF SECRETARY replied: Thepolicy of thle Government Onl this maitterwill shortly he indicated to Parliament.

MOTION-TRANS-AUSTRALIANRAILWAY.

Kelgoorlie-Fremantle Section.

HON. A. THOMSON (South-East)[4.35] : I miov--

That, in the nirrimnit of this House, beforeany definite decision is arrived at regardingthe construction of the Tans-AustralianJRilway from Kalgoorlic to Frenmantle, ai re-port should be preparied by the TransportBoard ia accordance with the provisions ofSection 11 of tire State 'rransport Co-ordin-tioji Act, and be submitted for the considera-tin of both Houses of Parliament; *thleTransport Board to investigate particularlya route from Coolgardie, linking up with theCorrigin-Brookiton line, thence to Frenmantlevia -Anuadale.

MNy reasons for submnitting- the motion forthle serious consideration of members aretwo. First, as I will he able to demionstrate,the extension of the trans-railway to Fre-mantle is in acicordancee with the establishedpolity of the Federal Government. Secondly,sooner or later, the line must be extendedfor military lpurposes, if for no other. Onpag-e 9 of a comprehensive report that wasprepared by the Hon. W. C. Hill, whenFederal 'Minister for Works, 'we find thispa ragraph--

From a nmilitnrv point of view, also, it isapparent that tlre first consideration is to

make tire rinig railway-s connecting mnaincentres of population capable of expeditiouslyhandling large bie~is of troops.

W~e all rerognise that the line from PortAugusta to Kalgoorlic Was only eon3;truetedonl thle advice of the late Lord Kitchenerwhen lie visited Australia. Probablyv thatastute old general, the late Lord Forrest,secuired Lord Kiteliener's co-op~eration iiibringing to fruition ]uis life-long dreamn ofsecuring- the construction of a trans-conti-nenltal lie to Western Australia. The firstestimiate or thme cost for constructing- a rail-way line of 4ft. S1 'sin. gauge from Kal-goorlie to Freiniantle was £E5,030,000, madeup as follows :-A iterations to existing- rail-way and structures, £1.260,0O0; new linesntecessary, £,3,120,000; adjustments to roll-ing stock, £650,000. The quota that West-era Australia was expected to find towardsthe total cost of £5,030,000 was f1,0 78,103.On page 4 of 111% Hill's 1927 review of thuunaifornm gauge controversy, wCe find that aconference was held in Melbourne in Janu-ary, 1922. but at that gathering no decisionwas airrived at. Tie Commonwealth and theStates of -New South Wales, Queensland andWesitrn Australia were desirous Of l)1'0-

ceeding wvith tile work, hut onl aCeO~mnt ofthe attitude of the States of! Vietoriai andSouth Ausitralia, it could not be p)ut in hand.Thre report of tint conference -was publishedin 1927 and it contains a paragraph regard-iiig a motimi carried in thle 1926 session ofthe Parliament of Wes-tern Australia. -Itwas resolved during that session by bothHouses asfolw

That , in the opinion of this House, the timehais arrived when the Federal po1ity of ex-reading the stanrdard gauge railway be con-suminiated in W\esterr Australia.

A footnote appears a.s follow:-

It is understood that this has reference totile provision of a standard gauge railway be-tween Kalgoorlie, Perth and Freniantle, whichwould he a third section1 Of the works recoin-miended hr the Ro.%.! Commission.

Mr. N1\or-tb, the ineumber for Claremont. movedthe nmotiori in thle Legislative As~ennhWv andit was agreed to by both Houses. It wvill berioted that the montion, as carried by Parlin-

menit, did riot definitely lay down thlat mleml-hers favourred tire construretion of a line run-ning parallel with tire present State railway.

I opposed thle construction of a l ine alougthat route and sug.ested another iii lieu.At a conference of Premiers held iii Canberra

[COUNCIL.]

on. thle th and 9th January, 1929, the fol-lowing resolution wsas carried-

The Railway Commissioners of the Comn-nnonwcalth and the States to confer and bringup to date tine estimate of tima cost of carry-ing out the proposals for unifying railwaygauges amade by the Royal Commission on theUnifonm Railway Gauge onl the 122nd Septeinl-ber, 1921.

I desire to deal with thsose revised estimatesand I shall later onl quote some letters thatI wrote regarding the matter. They Willindicate wvhat has actuated mce in submuittingmy motion to thne House. As a result of theconference of Commnissioners, Of Railways,in October, 19,29, the original estimate of£21,000,000 was increased to £34,000,000. 1draw the attention. of miemblers to the factthat the recomnudation of the Cominis-sioners of Railways-and apparently it re-ferred to the scheme that had beens accepted-provided as follows:-

For an landepctndent 4ft. Slin. gauge rail-way from Fremantle to Kalgo s'1,o ruin~~Ygparallel with thle existing Sit. 0in gauge rail-way for a considerable distance, but deviatingextensively throughi tine Darling Ranges be-tween Midland Junction and Northalm tosecure a satisfactory gradient.

The estimates for the provisionk of stand ardgauge rolling- stock, as arrivedl at in 1921,amiountedt to k.5030,000. The scheme ap-parently was one accepted by thne authorities,mid I a, enevnilnz to find( out 'who w'asthe authorityN that pledg-ed Western Aus-tralia to the construction of suc-l a linepairallel with the State railway and( to tineexpenditure of a total suns of £C6,211,000, allto secure the cunstru-ltion (off a line runningoparallel to, and in competition -with, the ex-isting State railxvay. Onl the basis of£6,211,000, the cost of construction of a linethrough country already served by a railwa~yConstructed by thle State Government, runsout ait a little over £16,046 per mile. Thereason I suggfest the members of the Trans-port Board should subinit a report is thatthe board was broughIt into being to protectthe State railways against the comipetitionof motor tr-affic. Surely if it was considerednecessary, in the interests of the railway sys-tern, to stifle competition by private citizens,it is much mor-c essential that the boardshould examine the proposal and submit areport regarding the p~roposed trans-line ex-tension running parallel for 387 miles, withthe State railway. Recently I asked theChief Secretary what had heen the cost ofthe line from Frensantle to Kalgoorlie, and(

the reply wais that to prepare the inforia-tion. would take a considerable time andwould be costly. Failure to secure theaccurate vatue fromt the Railway Depart-ment eompelled me to turn to the report ofthe Commnissioner of Railways which hasbeen laid onl the Table of the House. Thecapital cost of thle railways is estimated atL5,908 per mile, The distance from Fr-mantle to Kal~goorlie is 387 miles, and adouble line running fromn Fremnatle toSpencer's Brook, a distance of 72 miles,makes a total of 450 miles of railway serv-ing- the Eastern Goldfields. Therefore thevalue of the 450 miles of railway that theStaite has built, calculated at £6,908 permsile, is £C2,711,772. Yet it has been agreedby some authority, apparently, that anotherline or Jft. SMin. gauge should be con-structed parallel with the existing railwaywhich has cost the State approximately twoand thsree-qjuarter millions of money. Ishould like to quote extracts fromn twoletters which I have received. I wvrote tothe Acting Prime Minister, Dr. Earle Page,and asked if hie could send me some in-formiation. In reply, I received thle follow-ing copy of a letter to, Dr. Earle Page ovrithe signature of Mr. T. Paiterson, Mlinisterfor the Interior:-

'With reference to your letter of thle 27thDecemiber, 19:14, wvith enclosure fromt the Hlt.A. Thomson, M.L.C., of Western Australia, oilthe subject of unification oIf railway gaulgeI,I desire to inform you that a reply has nowbeen received from tile CoiaiaoaweaMlh Rail-

wasCommiissioner, who advises as follows:-''When the Royal Commission considered

the uniform railway gauge question in 1921they- hand before thein a proposal along tinelines of that submitted by the 1-ten. Alex.

:rhIOnISaon M.L.C., hot tine Commission re-vomnwnded that the standard gauge railwayshould follow generally the route of the pre-sent railway from Freniantle to Kalgoorlie,Avith dieviations on] the southi side of i lieSw:,n river in thne vicinity of Fremantle,and onl thle north side of the existing rail-way fron MNidland Junction for a consider-able distaonce through the Darling Ranges.When the estimates were reviewed by theA4ustralian Railwasys Commissioners in 1929,the Commissioner of Railways, WesternAustralia, submitted his proposals and esti-mates onl thle basis of the route recommendedby the Royal Comnaission.

''Thle Commnonswealth Railways Conmmis-sioner conferred onl this subject with tileWestern Australian authorities in 1929, andrep1 orted to the then Hon. the Minister thata proposal for a. railway such as suggestedhad been considered by the Western Aus-traliaLn authorities, but the latter were notfavourable to the proposal.''

[17 SEPTEMBER, 1935.] 7

Apparently some authority has committedthe State of Western Australia to the con-struction of a line running parallel withthe existing Eastern Goldfields railway.On the 12th July last, in answer to my re-quest, I received copies of the report ofthe Royal Commission on the matter ofthe uniform gauge, 1921, review of esti-mates by the Australian Railways Com-mnissioners in 1929, a paper dealing with thehistory of the movement, and a report ofthe Royal Comniission, estimates, etc., 1927.I wished to get a copy of the c onferencenotes to ascertain who of the WesternAustralian authorities were not favourableto the Proposal in 1929. I wanted to ascer-tain who 'was responsible for agreeing tothe construction of a line as laid down inthe reports. The following reply was re-ceived from the Department of the In-terior:-

The Commonwealth Railways Departmentstote:-''Tierc are no notes of a conferencewithl 'tlle Western Australian authorities whowore not favourable to tile proposals in 1929).'The then Commonwealth Railways Comis-sioner was informned whbile in Perth early thatyear that the proposal was not favourablyregarded hr the Western Australian autho--ties.

''The Royal Commissioners on uniformrailway gauge do not ialke specific referenceto the ronte adlvoca ted by --%r. Thomson, butafter investigation anld iniquiry on their visitto Western Australia, they 'provided for astandard gauge railway following generallythe existing hft. Gin, gaulge railway frontFrentantle to Kalgoorlie, witht deviaions InIthe vicinity of Fremantle and on the north ofthe t existing railway fromt Midland -Junctionfor a considerable distance thlrouigh the Dar-ling Ranges.''

Whien the. estimate of £-5,030,000 was sub-mitted, it was intended to pull up the pre-sent 3 ft. 6 in. gauge line frunt Kalgoorlieto Merredin and lay a line of 4 ft. &% inl.gauge to Mferredin, and to transfer thelifted rails for use elsewhere. Now, appar-ently, that scheme has heeii found to heimpracticable. I had hoped to have dis-played on the wall of the Chamber a mapshowing roughly the route that I suggest.Thu route that I consider the TransportBoard should report upon is for the transline to leave Coolgardie and link up -withCorrigin and Brookton, and thence followthe route of the proposed Brookton-Daleline, the construction of which has beenauthorised by Parliament, proceeding

thence to Fremantle via Armadale. Thedistance, according to the scale on themnap, is much shorter thaii the route ap-proved by the Commonwealth authorities,and as far as I can gather it offers absolutelyno engineering difficulties,. and should becapable of being constructed at considerablyless cost than the scemne adopted by theFederal authorities.

Hon. E. H. Angelo: It would not haveto pass through the tunnel.

'Hoti. A, THOM1SON: N-\o. Accepting- thecost of the Brookton-Corrigin suction ofState railway as a guide, it Was authorlisedin 1911, and the 56 mniles were estimated]to cost £1,480 per mnile. The actual costwas £1,404 per mile or £70 per mile lessthan the estimate. This shows that con-struction along the route I ami siggestingwould be considerably chea per than on theapproved route. The route I propose wouldnot c ause serious competition with existingril Iways, as the Brooktoll -COrin rail-waywould he the on] * linie affected. The areathat would be served by the line is capableof future development. It would passthrough the statistical districts of Cool-grar in: Vilgarni, Na renibeen. Konldini a,ljrookton, and B~evcrley. Tlie area. it wouldserve has a population of 8,444 people, andthere are in those districts 5,935 horses,5,505 cattle, 208,132 sheep, aind 6,396 pigs.

Hon. C. B. Williams: How much moneydo those people owe the State?

Hon. A. THOM.XSON-\: Not vrl much. Ibelieve. About 10,000 [tls of super wasused in those districts last year.

The Honorary 'Minister: When do voniexper-t the Kalgoorlic-Freniantle section tobe constructed?

Hon. A. THOMASONY: That is a qjuestioniwhich perhaps the Minister canl answer bet-ter than I can, but I remind him that it isan. accepted principle that the line will beeonstrUtcted sooner or later. Myv object inasking the House to support the motionl ijthat [lie route favoured by the Federalauthorities shall not be adopted when thetime arrives for the Kalgoorl ie-F reinant lesection of the trans line to he constructed.In the districts mentioned, wool to the valueof £408,384 was produced last year, andwheat to the value of £305,495, a total of£713,879. It will be seen that the suggestedroute would be revenue prorlieing from the

G73

074[COUNCIL.-

start. The coirsirnetion of tire trans sectioinalong that route would also enable otherareas to lbe imnproved and( developed. Thlerails from the Brook tou-Corrigin sectioncotzhl be moved, and used for tire construc-tion of the Hlovup Brook'-Cranhrook line.the earthworks for which have already beeneonstructed. Tire estimated cost of tireBrook-ton-Dale c.itcnsion, £1.06,000, wouldprovide for portion of our quota of thle ICrnl-goorlie-Fremantle section on the 4ft. S1/in.

arg.In my opinion, portion of the hirewould provide transport facilities for thle3,500 farms s0cme. While I admit thatto all intents and] purposes the sceene isconsidered to lie dead, there is no gainlsaying~thme faet that sooner or later-, when the out-look for primrary pirnductioin inlprove,;, thantland wilt be settled. ITn years gone by theprimna ry industries have si fered depressionand have recovered, and there is no reasoirWiry we Should nlot hope to hrave those ilr-dustries restored to a more satisfactoryfooting in future. P'art of the 3,500 farmisscheme would he served, and there is nodoub~t in mny mind that, given transport, thleland in that area will be utilised in the nearfuture. Later, from a development as wellas from a defence point of view, a branchstarting east of Biliaricay onl the Yifliminn-un g-Merrediin line and passing throughIHyden, Lake Grace, Pingrup. Onger'up, or'further east, anrd thence to Albany 'vWouldprove of great valuie from a strategic poinitof view. I regard Albany, owiing to itsgVeographical position and its fine harbour,as one of thle key positions from a defencepoint of view. I hope I have endeavouredats briefly as possible to deal with this il-poortamnt subject, and that I have p~roduiced.sufficient reasons wh ry the Transport Boardshould report onl tire proposal of tire ex-penditure of £6,211,000 onl a railway to coin-pete With) ourr own line which rep~resents£2,711,772, money invested by the State.

Hon. C. B. Williams interjected.

Hon. A. THOMSON: It is provided inour law that noe new line or road may lieconstructed until it has been submitted andap~proved by thle board. Whether tire alter-native rorite I have suggested is worthy ofcomnsideration Y shall leave to horn, membersto determine. I trUSt, however, that tireHouse will pass the motion.

On miotion by Chief Secretary, debateadjourned.

MOTION-MINES REGULATION ACT.

To Diallow Reguflation.

Debate res-urued fromn thle 10th Septemberonl tire following urouion moved by Hon. J.Niellolsolrr

That Regulation -No. 17a miade under tim'Mioes Regulation Aczt, 1906, ais published iiithe ''Govcrminrit Gazette'' of the 8th Malrch,103.5. andI laid oin tile Table of the House onthre 6th August, 19.35, be arnd is hereby dis-zilbwved,

HON. H. SEDDON (North-East) [5.7]:fir derilng' with thle question of regulationrsthe H-ouse find,, itself in the position it hasalwayk.s lbOCrr placed in whren debating thissubject. We realise that reguilations. areframed l) 'v tire resiponisible departmient afterdue consideration witih a view to facilitatingthe working of the various Acts. those de-pa rtnrents are administering. The positionrs thit, ini Connection with various reulia-tions, there may be things that appear to lieuniworkrable or peiraps unjurst, turd onecannot lielpi thinkiirg that suggestions fromthe House might prove effective, rather tihanpermnit regulations to stand as tirey arc. Intis ease I ami entirely in symnpatiry with thedesire that tirere should be efficiency in con-trol. .At the sanre time one or two minorpoinrts. arise and one finds oneself inl thePositioir Of bePing. unable wlrole-heartedir' tosup~port wxhat is piroposed. There are twoOr three poiint., that appear to me to warrantconsideration bytire department, certaincarses; of inadrrptrrhihity anmd in other in-stances incompleteness, anrd certainly thereis tire foundation for injustices to occur.The idea of tiiirc of service in a mine I en-ti rely support because one realises that inworing urndergrournd a manl must acquirea considerable amount of knowledge, andthat that knowledge canl only be gained bytime. But remnribering tire conditions ex-istirg in the industry, we should ask whetherdue regard has beenr given to tire questionof prelparator * eduicationi. A muon who, byhis environment, is familiar. with manything-s conneted wvith mining will acquireknowledg-e more quickly than a mail whomarL hie entirely new to the work. In sucha case we shronld allow a little latitude. Forinstance, if a young mian attends tile Schoolof M.1ines and recives a scientific trainingthere, then, if there is anY value in thattraining, it shouild assist him to becomefamiliar Withr lmiig practice far moreraplidly thiain tire mrail wlro has not had that

674

[17 SCPTEMBER, 1935.] G75

training, So from that standpoint thereshould be a certain amount of elasticity inthe regullations; there should be taken intoconsideration just exactly wvhat degree ofpreparation a candidate has had beforepresenJtinlg himself£ for exaiination.

Hon. C. B. Willianis :What, for shiftbosses? A School of Mines for shirtbosses ?

Hon. 11. SEDDONX: M1an y of those whoattenid the School of Mines acquire ai prac-tical tr-aining, and then work up. .A manl whois seeking anl underground certificate preC-pares for his examination with that objectill view. I1 am pointing out that in all estab-lished met hod of examining supervisors weshould have a certain amiount of latitudegiven to thle examiners to enable them to,assist in bringing, about the advancement ofyoung men. Some men are better adap1 tedthan others by environment and ability; sonicmay have had five years' trainlinlg and sohave had wider experience than, others.Therefore the question of time might beimade more elastic than it is )iowv. May Julse nil illustration?1 In the earlY diays ofthe goldfieldcs, na tural3- with thle eX Palnsioiiof the mining industry many camne into theindustry as vecry young men, advanced thenm-sdives and assumed positions Of respon'si-bliity. There is one mail at least in thisHouse whlo, w-hen quite a youing iian, "asplaceed in a1 responsible position, and ovcrileni older than himself.. H is a ppointimentw-as accep~ted because it "-as recognised thatlie had natur-al ability. I refer to the Halt.Mr. Williams. That illustration, I consider,is proof that natural abil ity- 5hor, berecognised. The question of thle appoint-mnent of supervisors has been referred to byother members. The Minister, too, in isremarks appeared to create the impressionthat these men were chosen and appointedto resp)onsible positions without due eonl-sideration, amid also that quiite young- mejjlwere advanced to these posts. It does notappear to ine to be consonant with soundmanagement that young men should bechosen to fill responsible positions unless themanagement themselves are satisfied thatthose men are capable of carrying out thework. We all recognise that there has beengreat expamnsion in mining during the ]lastfew years. We have it onl the authorityof the Acting -Minister for Mines thatin 1.920 there were 4,100 men engaged in,the industry and thant in 104 the num-

her laid increased] to 131,400. ]in thoselive -earis, it number o f those menhave passed out WF the industry' andtherefore the number available for posi-tions of responsibility mlust have consider-ably diminished. In; those circumnstoncesit is quite possible that managements findit difficult to obtain trained and practicalmen to carry out responsible work. I thinkMr. Williams pointed out that many of thebest miners will not take onl positions asshift bosses or supervisors because so manyare doing better in their present work.Therefore there must he a certain amountof encouragement given to those youingMen at presenit emp lloyed in, the inl-clusti--. There are one or two featuresabout the regulations that I must con-fess cause 'li a1 considerable amountof p~erturbatiou, p~articular-ly one thatdeals with the quiestiomn of the menalready acting as supervisors, many ofthem with many years of experience. Tnthe course of his remarks the Minister saidthose nen] would he provided for and] Or-rangenients made wlicreliy' they would imeable to continue in their positions withoutexamination. I cannot reconcile that state-ment with the text of the re.gulation, be-cause there is in the regulation no pro-vision for such an action to be taken. Theregulation says distinctly that every per-son employed or acting as undergroundIsupervisor shall pass an examnation andshall have had five years' experience. The 'eare men with 10 or 15 years' experienicein th~ose responsible positions, and] T say' thedepartment should have made arrange-mients in 'the reguIlation that those menwho have had such long experience shouldbe granted exemption from the examina-tion,: because obviously they' are compet-ent to carry out the work they have car-ried out for so long. I-ad that been done,some of the objections which have beenraised onl the goldflelds and a considerabledegree of nervousness amnong thme older menwould have been dispelled. Again, thelatitude which the Minister indicatedwould be extended appears to me to berather restrictive in that if a man who, hav-ing had 10 or 15 years' experience is quitecompetent therefore to carry on in hispresent position, happens to leave thatmine and go to another mine, that discre-tion is no longer applicable, for before he

676 [COU-NCIL.)

goes into the new position be must passain examiintion. It Seems to mie unjust andrather out of place because, if a manl iscompetent to carry on in his present posi-tion) surely hie sall be equally competentto carry out similar duties on another mine.The regulations do not cover such a stateof affairs and might cause hardship and in-justice to nmany men who have been associ-ated with the industry for very many yeors.Another point onl which the regulationsappear to be entirely silent is thle questtonof arranging for relief men. Suppose asupervisor meets with anl accident and is'laid aside. There appears to he no provi-sion for making a temporary appointi t

to fill the position. It is quite pos~siblethat some serious difficulty might arisethere, because the regulation is very defin-ite on the appointm-fent Of S Upervis$o'rs andimposes very heavy 'vPenalties on the per-son who takes the position of supervisorwithout having first passed the exami-ination, and also imposes severe pl)Cialty on tile mline management foremploying him, The regulation imposes aPenalty Of £10 with anl Additional £2 foreveryv day over which an unauthorised manlacts as supervisor. So, as I Say, consider-able inconvenience miight arise owing- to thislack of any provision for teniporarily fil-ing- the position. We cannot amend theregulations but miust either accept or rejectthem. I have pointed out these two inl-stances where considerable injustice mightarise. Then there is another provision tothe effect that if a complaint is made againstthe efficiencyv of a supervisor, a certaincourse of action is laid down. Ali inquirymlust be held into thle charges made againstthe supervisor. Then, after the inquiry' isfinished, the board of examiners may maikesuch order as they' think fit respecting thecost and expenses of the inquiry' , and suchorder shall, onl the application of anlyParty entitled to benlefit as the resultof thle order, have effect. So a manmight Jbe deprived of -his certificateand in addition be fined., or assessedfor heavy, damnages, and( be without appear-from the Penalty imposed hr that court.That is pretty severe. A manl could ehal-lenge the competenic y of a supervisor whohas not passed any set examination, where-upon the supervisor would he suspended: and,in addition, the examiner may make ordersin regard to costs, anid so an unfortunate in-

dividual might lie held responsible for meet-ing- those costs, in consequence of some-thing that had arisen as the result, per-haps, of in omlpetenlce. It seems to me thatthle punishment there is altogether out oflrtoportioll. It is already laid down inl thleMines. Regualation Act that a man respons-ible for injury or loss of life canl be dealtwith, but this regulation appears to mie tobe0 altogoether too severe. In the cirelifi-stances, unles.i we canl hear something fur-ther from thle Minister or the Governmentinl answer to the points I have raised, I willhave to vote ag-ainst the regulations,although I am in favour of the idea thatmen holding responsible positions shouldgive evidenice of their competence, and thereshould lie some system whereby a manloccupying a reslponsilble position shall haveto be certified competent to fill the posi-tioni. These are more or less miinor pointswhich could easily be included in the regu-lations, but a9re not now provided for.

HON. R., G. MOORE ( North-East) [5.22:I am quite in accord wvith the idea that somneregulation should be in force in regard tosupervisors and shift bosses on the mines.However, I am not prepared to go so faras to say that I will vote for the disallow-ance of the regulation. This debate on theregulation wil probably be produtetive ofsome, good, for I amn satisfied the Ministerfor Mines is quite prepared to act onl anysuggvestions that might come from this oranother place if he thinks they will makefor the better working of the mines. It hasbeen shown that there are weaknesses inlthe regulation, and probably because of thatit will be amended. The Point to Which Iam most opposed is that the regulationmakes no provision for the issuing of certi-ficates of competency to those shift bosseswho have been serving for a number of yearsand who, obviously, are competent to dotheir jobs. Yet many of them~ whom I knowvery well would shy at the very thought ofundergoing a written examination and com-mitting their knowledge to paper. Therecanl be no question about their, ability andknowledge of the work, but for those menwritten examinations are institutions of thed evil, and they wvould not attempt to undergoany examination in which they had to putonl paper thle knowledge they actually Pos-sess.

Hon. A, Thonvson: They could not do it.

676

{17 .SEPmxlSUR, 1935.] 7

lionl. R, G. MOORE: Some of them couldnot. Yet tite%. could successfully pass anoral examination, or give practical demon-btration of what should be done in any orall circumstances; hut to sit down and puton paper their answers to questions sub-rnittod to them, they Simply would notattempt it. Yet these mien should be pro-tected and should hav-e certificates to enablethem to continue where they are, or go onto another mnine onl tine same class of work,namely supervising. As for the period oftive years, I think that possibly a shorterperiod would meet the case. I do not knowthat any advantage "'ill resnit from makingthe term five years, becaus~e, after all, it isntt the time but the individual that counts.Sonic men would learn more in three yearsthan would others in 13 years. Andthen the youing mien coming from attechnical course at the School of Mines,if they go underground, they should heable to qualify in three years, at theend of which time they would have a farbetter knowledge of th~e work than wouldother men who had been there 13 years. As(or underground works, the slogan, inthis House at all events, should he

"afety first," andl so the term fixed.should be too long rather than tooshlort. But in the final issue the choiceof manl will he for tine underground mnana-ger, and because a person has Served fiveyears; and Passed an examination is not tosay that we will hie appointed as shift boss.The reg-ulation w~ill modify the choice to a(tertain extent, so that nn underground mana-ger could not employ a person of abilityand knowledge unless hie lad served fiveyears underground. I think the shorterterm would fill the biil, but I do think thoseolder men, who have gained their knowledgefroni practical experience, should be fullyprotected, and I am sure that no inine mana-ger would pref er to take the younger men.T don not know what the examiination ques-fi~us will be or howv they will be put to thecandidates, hut f do know that those meni speak of would make no attempt to pntlthe answers onl papler: so the best mecn wehave in tiee mines to-day, men of knowledg, eand practical experience, would refuse to sitfcLr the examination. One of the main pointsin thix electing of a supervisor is his abilityto hi:nfl! 0 other men. Some wn with all th~eknowleddrc aind experienee possible would hethe worst inl thle world In fill the position ofsuj., rvizor. becau-se there would be trouble

aostithe nail all the time. The oldersupervisors should lie P~rotected and prob-ably the termt shortened from live years tofoLir years. or even three years. hut I ann notprepared to go? 4o far as to vote for thedisallowance of thv e -mlaiion.

HON. J. 3. HOLMES (-North) [5.27) : Iagree witht die last speaker tlhat this leg&-l ation shiould he liased on the Slogan "'Safetyfirst.' Front what we have heard, there aresufficient casualties to disease anion6-t thleminers, without adding- the risk of phtysi-cal accidents. B a% ingl listened caref ully tothe speehes miade. I nn forced to the eon-elusion that while somie amendment of theMinies Regulation Avt is necessary, this regu-lation does not fill tlie bill. So much hasheeni cl]early shown by M~r. Moore, who saysthere is a number of good men, the bestmen, who will not lie able to pass the exam-ination, and if they' do not pass the examina-tion, they nitist gIuP their Positions assupervisors. He suggested that; the ChiefSecretary might bring down anotherregulation. If we desire to protect thesemen in their jobs, thle only thing to do is todisallow this regunlation and bring down an-other that will meet the case. I am led tobelieve that five years in any mine is longenoug-h for anyone who is working under-ground. If a man stays any longer thanthat Underground hie is looking for trouble,and yet it is p~rovided that before a man cantake an important position in a. mine he musthave lied five years' experience underground.There is no provision for- thos-e inca who arcoccupying these iositions to-day, havegrown up with tile nine, and are doing theirjobs wrell. ThurI will bec required to lass thleexainaii~tiotn. We ar told they caniiot passit, andI that if they fail to do so they willlose their jobs. Either that will he so or,their presenit jobs. will beeonic a hell uponenirth. So long as, thev are iii their priesenitpositions, these mien are to be allowed tocarry onl without examination.

Hon. H. Seddon: The reg-ulation does. notsay so.

Hon. 41. Niclioloit : The reguilation wouloinot allow that.

Hon, J1. J. IIOLME'-,: The Chief Secre-tary sid that SO long as9 they remained intheir present jobs in the mine the examlina-tion would not be required. If they go toa job on another mnine,. however, they mustpass the examination.

H-on. C. B. Williamis: I think the ChiefSecretary will correct that.

677

[COUNCIL.)

Hon. J1. J. HOLMES: Fancy any meni-her of this House finding himself in thatposition. Thle employers will know thatthey have these men under their thwnibs. Ifone of these men goes to another mine hewould not be able to get a certificate, andtherefore could not get the job. That inlitself will make his position where he is ahiell upon earth. In order to justify hisexistence, he may make the position of thoseunder him intolerable. It is not. by thisilanis that we will acquire what so many

pleCl1 are talking about to-day, peace inindustry. That is what I amt aimingat myself. When we legislate forsonic special profession or trade we havealways made provision, even iii such at dif-ficult profession as dentistry, that thosewho were carrying on at the time the Actwas passed should be allowed to continueto carry on.

Hon. C. F. Baxter: As in the ease ofmidwives and veterinarY s-urgeons.

.Hon. J. J. HOLMES: And yet in thiscjase it is stipulated that those who havecarried onl for mnany years must pass anlexamination. I agree that the safety oftbose in thle mines takes Precedence overall other considerations. I also agree thatpeace in industry is a very important plankin any pylatform. It' we could amnd thisregulation as the House desires, all -wouldbe well- but as wre cannot do so I ant com-pelled to vote for its disallowance in orderthat somc inore suitable regulation may bebrought down.

On mnotion by Hon. W. J,. Mann, debateadjourned.

BZLL-RURAL RELIEF FUND.

Received from the Assembly and read afirst time.

1~,2,

BILLS (2)-THIRD READING.

Trustees' Powers Amendment.Freimantle (Skinner Street) Disused

Cemetery Amendment.

Passed,

BILLr-CREMATION ACT AMENDMENT.Further repiort of Coimumittee a (opted.

BILL-JUDGES' RETIREMENT.

Second Readig.

Dehatc resumned from tile 12th Septern-

HOGN. H. S. W. PARKER (Metropolitan-Suburban) [5,37]: 1 oppose the secondreadin The Bill seemis to inc to be en-tirely unnecessary. Tile argumient has beenused that iii other walks of rife men haveto retire at 60 or 605. 1 canl see nothingthat izs comparable between the position ofa jiudge and that of a civil servant or evena magistrate. A mian is not appointed toa f Judgeship until lie has had a great manyyears of experience in his profession. Itis a professioii in which a manl continuesto improve throughout his life. A manlhas to be well onl in years, before be canacquire the qualifications necessary for ajudg-eship. Somec of the miost eminentjudgesA in the Empire have been 'len be-tween TO and 80, and in exceptional easesover 80. Only onl rare occasions is it thata judg-.e does not retire at the first sign ofwanting powers. I ami forced to the eon-elusion that if the Bill is passed, otherBills must be brought down, because thismeasure does not in itself go far enough.The Government arc asking us to agreethat a iuian, by virtue of his age, is nolonger competent to construe the law at 70.If that he so, it is a far greater disabilityfor a man to attempt to make laws at theage of 70. It many bip said that the mailof 70, before lie can bep elected to Parlia-ment, must go before tile people who willdecide as to his capabilities. That is so.When we appoint a judge, whether he is40 or 60, lie retains his jJositionl until heretires or dies, or is removed for somnewrong practice. According to this Bill, theGlovernment of the day are not to be per-initted, however urgent the need may be,to appoint a judge or manl who has beena judge up to the age of 70, to be evena1 commissioner to try a special ease. Hewill not l)C appoinited even as an actingju~dge, merely because he is 70, howevercapable he may be. If that is thle intentionof the Government they must go further,antd say that no man miay be a member ofParliament if lie is over 70. If age is a dis-qualification it is far more importanit thatilhe lisgualification should app~ly to a man

f17 SEPTE31rIER, 1935.] 01

who is making the laws rather than to themnan who has to interpret them. If theBill passes the second reading stage, I shallhave several amendments to suggest. If itbecomecs law, the only effect it will have willhe to increase the burden upon the peopleby way of pensions. The 'Minister for Jus-tice in his second reading speech, referredquite righltly to the qualifications that wereapparent in the late Chief Justice. who wasover 70 at the time of his death. We hadthe advantage of two additional years of hislearning and experience. The present ChiefJustice is also over 70. 1 do not knowwhether it is suggested he is not capableof continuing in his position or that hie hasnot ripened with the years. It is foundthat all judges have ripened with the years.If the Bill is passed a man of 60 will nottake a judgeship becaulse hie may only bethere for 10 years. Furthermore, if theBill is not amended he will not receive a1pension. I do not think it is intended thata judge who retires at 70 shall lose his rightto a pension because he has only held officefor a few years. The Bill suggests that liewill not get a pension. In any ease, whyshould the State have to pay a pension toa7 man who has held office for o)nly fire orten veains?

Hon. G. Fraser: It must he A healthyoccupation if we have to legislate for theretirement of judges at 70.

Hon. H. S. W. PARKER: They haveevery reason to improve their minds. Theyarc not navvies. JNo one has ever suggestedthat a judge requires to hare the constitu-tion of a navvy. He has not got to do bul-locking work. He has to apply his brain,his mental faculties. It is a healthy occupa-tion. 'Moreover a judge has vacations dur-ing- which to recuperate so far as his mindis concerned. -No one suggests that a judgeactually sits in court for eight hours a day.fec has a considerable amount of readingto do, but I do not think the reading- is suchais to drive him into his grave. He has notto undergo physical exertion. As I waspointing out, if the Bill passes, judges mustbe appointed before the age of 55 yearsif the State is to obtain a reasonable amountof service from them, with 70 years as theretiring age. 'Under those conditions, ap-pointment at 55 would mean only 15 years'service. A great many of our judges havesat on the bench for far longer periods than15 years, and have given good service. With

70 year-- as the retiring ave. a judge ap-pointed at 60 would give only 10 years' ser-vice before a pension would become pay-able. Why increase the pension bill whenihiere is no need whatever to do so? Nostoppage of promotion is involved. 'Mem-bers of the legal profession are not worry-ing- about being promnoted, and wantingjudges retired for the sake of promotion;,and it is only the legal profession whichcounts in that respect.

lon. A. M1. Clydcsdale: What retiringage do von suggest?

Ifon. 11. S. W. PARKER: None what-ever. Judges are appointed because theyare honourable men. Quite recently in Eng-land an eminent. judge said that when hear-ing appeals he always felt very pleased tohave available thle view's Of a. judge Of ripeyears of experience, and that judge was then82 years of age. Further, the samne eminentjudge stated that it always happened, when

a judge was beginning to fail, that one ofhis colleagues gave him the tip and he re-tired.

Hion. J1. Nicholson: You are referring toLord Hiewart?

Hon. H. S. W. PARKER: Yes. Forsome reason or other we here want to cutdown judges in their prime. I cannotunderstand why. I see no reason why ajudge should be retired. If he is not fitfor his position, the Houses of Parliamentcan remove him. We know very well, how-ever, that this procedure is not one whichanybody would care to adopt. On the otherhand, we canl feel quite assured that theAttorney General or the Mfinister for Jus-tice of the day would give a hint wherenecessary, and that the judge would un-doubteilly retire. But to declare that wecannot employ a judge over 70 years of age,however capable, is absurd. Under the Billthe Governor in Council would not even beallowed to appoint him as a commissionerfor a temporary job. That seems to meabsolutely ridiculous, He might he a manat the very best of his faculties, and yet theBill will debar hint from employment. I per-sonally am strongly opposed to the measure,and] shall vote against the second reading.

HON. G. FRASER (West) [.5.50] : I sup-port the second reading of the Bill. I can-not agree with the previous speaker, whodeclared himself in favour of deleting the70 years. In effect that deletion would mean

679

[COUNCIL.]

leaving it to the individual judge to saywhen he shall retire, as is the ease to-day.The system of giving at tip to a judge toretire may have Acted well enough iii somecases; but, still, it rests with the individualwhether he will take that tip. Should liehappen to be a little cantankerous, he mightsay, "No;, I will continue on the bench."Generally speaking, I am not a believer in aretiring age whether for the manual worker,the judge, or any% other person. The caps-hibities of a person cannot be judged merelyby his age. Those Are the lines along whichI have thought All along. One man at 05mar he absoliel ,y played out, whereas an-other 11an1 of thle same number of yearsmnight be quite capable of carrying out hisduties.

lon. H. S. WV. Pairker: Then you shouldsupport Mr. Baxter,

Hon. G-. FRASER: No. At 70 years ofage a manl Ims had a pretty fair spin.

Hon1. G.. W. Miles: You judge a man bythe age of 21.

Hon. G. FRASER: In what way?H~on. G. W. Miles: You fix his wage at the

age of 21., whether he is fit to earn it or not.-loti. G. FRASER.: There must be start-

ju-point.flon. 0. W1. Miles: Yes. (Is everyone a

manl At 21 rvears?7ll. Cf. FR .\ SEll It is a pretty poor

kiiic of mian who caninot earn a man's wageait 21.

I-on. G. WT. -Miles: Any inunber cannot.Hon. 0I. FRASER: Not many men are

unable to earni a mans wage at 21. I amnot so much concernied w-ith the cost in thefouin. of Pensions, becausie it might be muchcheaper to retire A judge onl a pension thanto Allow himf to continue onl the bench givingwrong decisions on Account of disability dueto age. Wrong decisions would involve hun11-dreds or perhaps thousands of pounds tothe suitors concerned. That is a seriousp)hase of the question.

lion. H. S. AV. Parker: Then a iuit of70 should not sit in Parliiiacent to mavke andatmend laws.

lion. 0. FII-Al : Suhi EA man could beoutvoted by younger legislators if he is,wrong. He has to gut other mnembrs tovote with him, in order to lpa-, at law.

lion1. H1. S, W, Parker:. l1e canl have thesame advantage onl tile benich.

lion. G. FRASER: As regards 1'arl it-Itrent thevre is safety in numbers, but thatdoes; not apply in the ease of the judicial

bench. I notice a clause excluding the pre-sent occupants of the bench from the opera-tion of the iBill, I agree with that clause,because it prevents possible allegations thatsomething was being done from vindictivemotives. Still, many persons do not Agreewith that provision. They hold that theremust be something wrong in view of whathas happened during the past two or threeyears wvith regard to appeals from decisions.

Honi. H. S. W. Parker: Have you everhieard of the number of appeals where theLords Justic-es' decisions have been upset bythie House of Lords?

I-Ion, G-. FRASER: But the upsetting ofdecisions has been so persistent here duringthe p~ast two or three years.

Hon. H. S. WT. Parker: It has beeun morepersi.'tent as regard the decisionsi of theLords Justices,

Hion, G. FRASER: Speaking from meni-cry, I should say-

lion. Hf. S. WT. Parker: It is not a ques-tion of age, because the judges who upsetthe decisions y-oil refer to were all over 70,and -you will not have any judges over 70years of Age.

HEFon. G-. FRASER: On the second lastocc;asion of the High Court of Australiavisiting this State, out of about six appealsonly one was dismissed.

lon. IF. S. W. Parker: The appeal Wasfrom under 70 to over 70. It was thle judgesover 70 who allowed the appeals.

Hon, G. FRASER : I sun not aware whatwere the ages of the judges concerned.

Hon. H. S. AV. Parker: But that is afaciet.

Hon. 0-. FRASER: I am referringto thle high percentage of decisions up-set during the last two years. Thisyear the percentage is somewhat similar.One or two appeals were. dismissedout of six or seven. Many peoplehave suggested that the Bill should applyto the present occupants of our SupremeCourt heneh.

Hon. H. S. W. Parker: It has nothing todo with age.

Hon. 0. FRASER: I am prepared tosupport thle clause, because I cannot sug-gest where the fault lies. I merely men-tion that phase of the subject. The advan-tage of having compete-at muen on thebench would outweigh any' cod that mightbe incurred by way of pensions. I repeat,a man of 70 years of ag-e has had a pretty

[17 SEPTEMBER, 1935.] 681

fair spin. Whilst there may lie many ex-ceptions to the rule, whilst judges amy becapable of carrying onl even at 80 years orover, I consider that, taking hmuanityright through, the moan who has reache~dthe age of 70 years is nearly finished. AsI have said, I am not a great believer inany compulsory retiring age; but I holdthat in fixing a retiring age of 70 we aregiving at pretty fair spinl to future nudfges.I Support the second reading.

HON. J1. J. HOLMES (North) [5.57]:The previous speaker appears to have over-looked the fact that if a judge who is notgiving proper service oil the bench re-fuses to take a tip to get off, that i, notthe end of the matter. The fact whichthe bon. mnember has overlooked is thatthe two Houses of Parliament call a~t an lvtime remove a judge for incompetence orwrongful acts.

H-on. Gi. Fraser: Who is going to proveincompetence or a wrongful act?

Hon. J. J. HOLMIES: That remark is areflection upon Parliament. The fatre-mnains that a judge cnn 1)e removed fromthe Bench, as I have stated. Having loo kedthrough the speech delivered by the ChiefSecretary in moving the second reading, Icould on~ly discover in it one point in fat-\'our of the Bill-that it will brin-- tile re-tiring age of our judges into line with thatof other State officers holding high posi-tions. However, it still leaves the judgesyears above the retiring age of inx pub-lic servants. And that is the only reasonadvanced in, the Chief Secretary'..s speech-to bring the retiring age for judges intoline with that for other high official-,. Thave looked all around Australia for rea-sons. It seems to me that, for sonic un-explained reason, this relirement of judgeshas become part of the Australian Labourpolicy.

Hon. A. 3.\. Clydesdale: A similar mea-sure is being introduced in Victoria.

Hon. J. J. HOLMES: The lion. membercan tell us all about Victoria later on. How-ever, this seems to have beconme part ofLabour policy in Australia. It has beenadopted in Queensland, I understand. Iam not surprised at that. It has beenadopted in New South Wales, wvhere manythings have been done of which we are notproud. Victoria has a Government kept in

power by the Labour Party. From what Iread in the Press it seems to me that theVictorian Government have been forced tointroduce the Bill fixing the retiring- ageof judges at 70 years. There may be goodgrounds for the introduction of measuresof that kind by the Labour Party, but thatdoes not justify their introduction.It is trite that the Bill does not apl~py to thepresent j udges. I disagree entirely with thlecontent ion of Mr. P arker that even onlreaching the age of 70 years, if we pass theBill, the judges should be allowed to carrytil as adlministrators or acting judges, orilAl il iiar capacity. Wi th all due respectto our judges-I have for themn the greatestrespect beeause of their efforts to maintainjustice and to keep the Empire together, iffor no other reason-I would] not like toplace them. in a ,o'itionl in which the C ov-ern nent of the day could dangle somethingbefore them whlen they were rea ching the re-tiring age. If judges . are to finish theirwork at 70 Years of age, that should be tilefinish ot Government work. If judges areunfit for their office when they reach thatige-I do not think they are-they shouldbe regarded as unfit for anything else. Iwould cite the position of the Leader of theBar, Sir Walter James, K.C., who is wellover 70 ycamnn of age. I believe his intellectis as bright a, ever, and lie is quite asbrilliantt aS any other mian practising at tilebar to-day.

I-oil. J. Nicholson: Quite tight.

Hon. J. J. HOL1,1M: I have not noticedanyw dimjinution in his muental poweis, but ifwe passed this Bill, and he wvere a judge, hewould be retired. I understand that the lateSir Robert 2ie.1lilan was 73 Years of agewhen hie died. If' the Bill had been law whenlie was Chief Justice, wye would] have lostthree years of his work in that office. Whilewe would have been pay' ing a penlsioil tohim, we would probably have paUid a lesscompetent judge to discharge tile dutiesformerly performed lbv him. Where is thet-Olnfonsense and justice of it all? I knowof what happened at Frenmantle. At onetime there were two former resident magis-trates residing there. TheY were in receiptof pensions and ii nother magistrate wasbeing plaid to di~cho re thle work of thatposi tion. I have no hesitation in shying,from what I. knew of thle inen, that themiagistrate who was retired first was the bestqualified of the three, at any stage of their

[COUNCIL.]

reslpeetive lives. Is that the way to econo-mise? Mferely to force amanl out of oflicefor I]o other reason than that hie is 70 years

ofa-? A-re we to put some interior in theposition to draw the pay, while a superiormnan is retired and draws his pension? Innians' cases, the serviees at the superior man(olild have been retained, anid the countrysaved the neccessity to pay the penslionI. i,by any stretch of imnagination, I could findany justification for the Dill, I would sup-port it. I oppose the evond reading.

HON. 3. CORNELL (South) [6.4] : Theessence of the Bill is a question whether weshould fix a retiring age for members of thejudiciary. I aml inclined to the opinion thatwe should. To-day we arc surrounded byan admirable Public Service, in connectionwith which there is a compulsory retiringage of 65 years. The Public Service in-cludes the Crown Solicitor and the Assist-ant Crown Solicitor, who are appointed totheir offices in order to advise Governmentsin control of the affairs of State as to legallprocedure. I submit that the position ofsuch legal advisers to the Crown is as imi-portant as that of a judge. If there is anyvirtue in the theory that as a judge mnatures,his judgments become more sound . thatshould also apply to the Crown Law officers.

Hon. H. S. W. Parker: How can you sayit is more Jimportant respecting the CrownSolicitor?

Hon. J. CORNELL: The lion, member hasacted as Crown Solicitor.

lion. H. S. W. Parker: NYo.RHon. J. CORNELL:- If there is anything

in logic at all, I presume that bath partiesare supposed to know the law. The CrownSolicitor advises the Crown, and the lawyerwho happens to be appointed a judge ad-judicates in court.

Hon. If. S. W. Parker: Judges (10 notadvise; they adjudicate onl matters broughtbefore them.

Hon. J. CORNELL: What is the posi-tion of the Crown Solicitor9

Hon. If. S. W. Parker: He has to advise.Hon. J. CORNELL: He advises the

Crown whether or not a case will succeed.I presume that is his duty. If times doesnot improve him, what will?

lion. G. W, Miles; When a solicitor hassufficient experience, he gains a position onthe bench.

Hon. J. CORNELL: M_%en who arc in theposition to advise the Crown are comnpul-sorilv retired at 65 years of age.

Hon. E. H. Angelo: Two wrongs do notmake a right.

lion. J. CORNELL: What is wrong inthis instance?

Hon, G. WV. Miles: Retirement at 65 iswrong, if the man has special ability.

Hon. H. S. W"T Parker: I do not knowthat such men are compulsorily retired at65 years.

Hon. J. CORNELL: I understand that,under the Public Service Act, they are re-tired at that age.

lion. H. S. N1W Parker: What age wvnsthe Under Secretary for Law who retiredrecently?

Hon. J. CORNELL: Mr. Parker isquibbling. We know that the Under Secre-tary for Law was due to retire onl reachring(65 years of age, but he was given a briefextensioii of office, Seeingi that his Ministerwas abroad.

Hon. H. S. W. Parker: At what age (lidthe formner Solicitor General retire?

Hion. J. CORNELL: T caninot sa.Hon. H. S. W. Parker: I can.Hon. J. CORNELL:. My argument is that

the Public Service ,Xct provides for cnn-pulsor~y retirement at 65 years of age. Itshouldl not be passible to pick and choose,and the best has to go with the worst. Xwant to know why the provision that appliesma the civil servant should not apply alsoto judges of the Supreme Court. The Billdoes not apply to the members of the pre-sent judiciary, but to fature judges.

Hon. L. Craig: They will have to retirecompulsorily.

I-on. J. CORNELL: I do not know thatthey wilt have to retire compulsorily, aIny'more than some officers have to retire comi-pulsorily. At any *rate, future appointeesto the judiciary will know the conditionsattaching to their appointments.

Hon. G. IV. Miles interjected.Hon. J. CORNELL: They are not always

the best men who receive appointments. Weknow that political hacks have been ap-pointed to the judieiary-

Hon. B.L S. W. Parker: You don't wantthat here.

Hon. J. CORLNELL: 'No.Hon. A. M. Clydesdale: But that is a

wrong statement to make.Hon. 3. CORNELL: It is not.

[17 SEPTEMBER, 1935.]68

Lori. A. -31. Clydesdale: Of course it is.

Bor1k. J. -Nicholson: So it is.Han. J1. CORN'.ELL,: There are instances

ont nicord in Australia where political lParti-sans have been appointed to judgeships, andthe biar has protested against those appoint-Ineuits.

Hon. J. Nicholson: Such instances ie, inthle mlinority.

Hion. A. 31N. Clydesdale: And even then,those concerned have proved themselves.

H1on. J. CORNELL: Let us be candidand honest, and admit that these things havehappened.

Hon. H. S. AV. Parker: This will not stopit.

Hon. J. CORNELL: Of course it will not,'but if it is good for a highly paid civil ser-rant to retire at 65 years of age, I cainnotsee why a judge should not be retired at 70years.

Hon. H. S. W. Parker: Do youk sugglestthat a judge should be appointed at 14years of age, as is the rule with thle civilservice?

lion. J. CORNELL: I do not want tosay anything harsh about judg-es; they areonly human.

Harn. A. 111. Clydesdale: That is irhy theyare appointed.

Hon. J. CORNELL: They make as manymistakes as people in other walks of life.

Ron. A. -M. Clydesdsle: Hear, hear! Icanl agree with you there.

Hon. 5. CORNELL: Were the Bill toapply to members of the existing judiciary,f would oppose it because its terms are notin accord wvith the conditions under whichthe judges received their appointments.

Honi. C. B. Williams: If they are stillonl the bench for another 40 years, you willslot object.

Hon. J. COR-NELL: I would attributethat to ont splendid climante.

Hlon. C. B. Williams: What about mem-Ihers of Parliament?

Hon. J. CORNELL: I will support aBill making, a man ineligible to sit after heis 70 years of age. If I should reach thatage and I were privileged to represent layprovince during that time, I would tell theelectors that I would make way for someoneelse.

Hon. A. 11. Clydesdale: What about allyour training, aind experience?

Hon. J. CORNELL: I do not see why weshould retire a judgve any more than anyother person.

On motion hy Hon. L. Craigz. debate ad-journed.

satling suad eeed from? 615 to 70 Pmm.

BILL-FORESTS ACT AMENDMENT.

Second Reading.

THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Hon. J. IA.Drew-Central) 17.301 in moving the secondreading said: Section 41 of the Forests Act.1918, provides that three-fifths of the netrevenue of the Forests Department shall bepaid to the credit of the Reforestation Fund.En 1924 an Act was passed which providedthat 10 per cent. of the net revenue fromsandalwood for that year, or £5,000, which-over was the greater?. should go to a specialSandalwood Reforestation Fund, and thebalance should be paid into ConsolidatedRevenue. That practice was continued annu-ally until 1930. Experience had then provedthat siandalwood reforestation was not prac-ticable. Consequently, the special allocationof the money for that purpose was notnecessary, and an Act was passed to author-isn thle paymient of the whole of the revenuefrom sandalwood into Consolidated Revenue.That practice has since been maintained,and this Bill is to authiorise the same p~ro-cedure for another year. There is still asmall balance of £726 left in the SandalwoodReforestation Fund. Last year anl amountof £500 was expended from the fund,mainly representing the salary of one officer.Replanting operations have not been suc-cessful. It is found that the rabbits are par-ticularly destructive of the young plants ex-cept in one or two parts of the State. Thesandalwood industry has been adverselyaffected during recent months by the diffi-cult trading conditions which continue tooperate in China. Furthermore, the silverpolicay of the United States of America hashad serious repercussions on the currency ofHlong Kong and Shanghai. In addition,there have been serious floods and conse-quent crop failures in the Yangtsze Vatley,thus further reducing the purchasing! powerof the principal sandalw-ood consuing. coni-nmnities. Tile sandalwood market has never-theless maintained a position of comparativestability as conmpared with the market forother commodities iii China. This is very

683

[COUNCIL.]

satisfactory in view of the fact that adversetrading conditions in general have causedthe failure of inany established tradinghouses and banks (luring recent mionths. Therevenue received onl account of sandalwoodfor the year ended the 30th June, 1935,amounted to £19,713, and the estimated re-ceipts; for the current year are £18,000.Sandalwood pulled for export during theyear ended the 30th June, 1935, totalled1,451 tons, and thle total exports amountedto 2,223 tons, the export value being£66,474. In addition, 370 tons of sandal-wood -was utilised locally for oil distilla-tion. In view of the fact thait the replantingof sandalwood has proved to be impractic-able, it is inadvisable to p)ay mtoney into thefund when it cannot be utilised for the pur-pose for which' it was formerly set asido,and it is now proposed to take the moneyinto Consolidated Revenue for another year.I asked for further information fromt theTreasury and from the Forests Departmentto assist me in introducing the Bill, butthe information did not come to hand untillate this afternoon. The figures comne fromthe Treasury and the comments, I presume,from the Conservator of Forests. The ex-penditure from lean funds onl reforestationand afforestation. during- the past threeyears has been £433,066 , of which sumn theCommonwealth Governmnen t advanced asa grant £22,500, leaving thle State's quotaas £410,476. The Commonwealth Govern-inent have realised that the work of re-forestation is of national importance2' andthis year arc subsidising the work bygranting £100,000 on a pound-for-poundbasis. The increase in loan expendituresince the commencement of the depressionhas been the means of the Forests lDepart-ment's absorbing a large number of uneni-played in relief works. 'During the pastthree years the number so engaged hasnever been below 900 and has reached 3,500.This year it is proposed to keep in eniplov-ment 1,100 men.

I-on. J. Nicholson: The State Govern-ment are keeping those inen on 9

The CHIEF SECRETARY: Ves. A cr-tain percentage of the men are not fitfor laborious work, and the policy of theGovernment is to ensure that as few aspossible go on the dole. Although somemen may be in perfectly good health, theyare not strong enough to engage in roador other laborious work, and consequently

they fire employed in the work of refores-tation. Under the supervision of trainedoverseers, the men have performed willingand useful work. Dealing with thle scopeof work undertaken during thle past fireyears, the leeway to be made uip in refores-tation ineasurds, caused by the uneontrolledexploitation and subsequent neglect of at-tention to the second crop iirring pre.-waryears, is gradually being overhauled. Thearea cut out for sawinilling since the in-ception of the general working plan in1920 is 138,882 acres, while the area offorest which has been fire-protected andtreated to promnote regeneration is 232,752acres. Previous to commencing regenera-tion operations. proper, a ;nrvev of thearea to be worked over is made, showingtopographical features and roads andtracks. Using this as a base, the countryis subdivided into compartments of ap-proxiimately 500 acres, around -which a fireline is surveyed. Of such surveys 6,868miles have been made. The mneans of accessto the area is provided by roads constructedalong old bush-traniline formations andwhim tracks, 1,776 miiles of wvhich havebeen cleared. Telephone communication isnecessary for fire-control purposes and gen-eral administration, and 264 miles of spe-cial earth circuit telephone line have beenconstructed, In order that forest ove r-seers may become thoroughly acquaintedwith their spheres of operhations and beat hand inl ease of emergency during thefire season, they are housed onl their blocks.During the past five years 34 houses havebeen built. Regarding the reforestation ofjarrab, following sawmillers and hewers:,the debris resulting fromn their operationshas to be removed from the butts of poles,piles and sapling growth and burnt by acontrolled fire before regeneration opera-.tions can commnence. During the past fiveyears 07,294 acres have been so treated.Thle major work of reforestation in thejarra h forest-regeneration and cleaning-consists of the removal of useless over-mature timber and malformed younggrowth to allow for the proper develop-mlent of the young forest. This work hasextended over 140,811 acres. In additionthere are many thousands of acres Carry-ing young stands of timber which havebeen scarred and malformed hy uncontrolledfires of past years. Thinning, to ensure

[17 SFrrsMsER, 19-35.] 685

that the dominant trees of this crop areof good torn) and arc free from suppres-sion, has also been carried out over 91,238acres, Onl all areas so treated, each work-ing unit-a compartment-is surroundedby a green firebreak belt and fireline forfire-protection purposes. In the karriforest, advantage has been taken of theoccurrence of seed years to promote na-tural regeneration, with the result that ayoung crop has been estahlishied over 9,139acres in the Manjirnup district. HJere,again, a firebreakc system surrounds nallareas treated. Reforest operations with imallet on the poor unproductive poison landsin the )Jarrogin district have advanced very-considerably during- the past fi've Years, andin- clearing and spot Sowilng with seed, ayoung mlallet crop onl 6,211 acres has bensecured, No recent sowings of sandalwoodhave becen carried on t onl the Eastern Cold-fields as it is considered advisable to awaitthe results of previous experimental workin this direction. Experimental sowing,along the Great Southern ra ilway and in theSouth-West have been tarried out wvith en-oe ]I,, results. One featu re of. those

oeaions is that, although rabbits only beplenti [ii, they display little or noa interestin the seedl i rg sandal wood, whereas, under

simia"cnditolls in the Eastern Gioldfields,extensive cx per ients have showrn Hint everyyoung plant would be bitten off. 'lieafforestation of otherwise unp)roductiveareas in thle ranges; of the South-West,chiefly water sn ppi ' catchiments and oil thecoastal sandplains, has prog-ressed steadilyat the rate aimed at, namely,, 1,000 acresper annual1 i. During the past five years5,262 acres of pines, chiefly pinus pinasterland pinus radiata, have been established. Imlove-

That the Bill be now read a second timie.Onl motion by Honl. H1. Seddonl, dlebatec

adjourned.

BILLr-BRANDS ACT AMENDMENT.

Second Reading.

Debate resumed] from the 11th Septembe-.

HON. C. F. BAXTER (East) [7.44]: Thepolicy reflected in this Bill is a very goodone. Only those people who are c-onnectedwith stock know to what extent stealing hasbeen going oil over a period of years. Re-

centl v lotses from this cause have beenaccentuatred by the advent of motor tranis-port. It is in easy matter for muen onl amotor truck to travel at night. round uplsheep in a corner of a paddock, put. themonl the truck and leave no t race behind. Inthe detection of such thefts, thle p~olice a icpracti cally powerless, inasmuch as there is5nothing to guide them. At ilitnbst ally sale-yard one wvill find a large nuimber of sheephear' zig no brands or identiflication marks,.and it they happen to 1)0 stolen, there is nopossible chance of proving the ownership.If this measure becomes law% and is rigidlyenforced, I do not expect it to stop shleep-stealing, aItogetlier, hut it will en etail theevil to a large extent. I have had some un-happy ex periences in that respect. Onl oneoccasion 20young sheep were picked upl inone nigrht and no trace of themn was everfound. I daresay that other stockownershave had a similar experience. The Bill willcurtail this. Ini addition it is necessary togive the police more facilities to cope withthe trouble. 133 that I mean the load t heycarl-v shlould be lightened. The usual cou n-tlV , ( v pliemn is a Governmnent officer as"vell and attends to practically everythingin his lIistrir-t and fills almost ev-ery- post ex-cept that of Alpricultural Bank inspector.In] fact, hie is overloaded with work.Anlother matter of inmportanee is the inca 115by , v hich the country police move about. Ido0 lnt kniow why it is, but thle authoritiesstill compel themi to move arounzd onlhlorseback. which is thle slowvest p)os-sibile wa 'y of getting about, especiallywhen it is renmemnhered that they haveanl enormous territory- to travel over.In connection with sheep stealing, the horsewould be of no use at all. There are somieinmprovemenits which I consider should bemade to the Bill, for instance, the brandingof lambs. I cannot see any necessity forcoipulsoril ,v brandi zig lambis un til they areold enloigh to he weaned. If lambs arc tolie disposed of, wre should riot lbrand thembecause to do0 so would mean bruising thetender body, and that w-ould reduce thevalue of thel meat. What I mighlt term tileunscrupulous drover, more particularly inthe niorthlern parts of the State, has not hesi-tated to pick upl the number of sheep lieigh-lt require to malhke ill) ainy shortage in

his flock and mark them with the Tbrand. Wlhat redress canl the owner have?I trudt that soniethilmg will be done to pro-

(COUNCIL.]

feet owners in that respect. It niav be aswveil to make it at serious offence for anyoneto (any' stock branads. ]It certainlyv is timethat those people who have not seen fit totlike the trouble to brand sheep will be coal-

tilled to do vo for their owni l)rotectionl.,Somie station owners, 1 suppose, will raisesotue objection to thle extra work whielh willhe entailed 'b 'v tlie branding and also thercrords which they- have to keep, but theyears well afford to pay for that little extr'awork. Records should certainly lie kept,even though tile keeping of the records willinvolve a Ilittle additional expense. J cannrotfind( any fault with the Bill, though, ats Ilave alIready sni1d, it is openl to im provementinl certain direct ions. Whlen it is passed. atsT hope it illI be, its provisions shoal d beA i gentlv enforced and anl.% person vnaulit.stealing sheep should lie visitedl with thle tfallpenalty. It has been a dimeficut miatter inlconnection wvith sheep stealing to prove tileoffence. As at matter of fact, thle pena ltyjprovidled is so heavy that magistrates wilnot convict uniless the' are absolutely cer-tuini of the g-ui t oif thne offender. Cauise-jllcultly very- few Prosecutions have beensuceessf I. Stoek-owners genterally aire verytimid about proceeding against any.% personlfor stealing sheep, because the evidence hasto lie so very comilete before the magistratecan he satisfied. Then if the prosecutingpasty does not secure a conviction hie isplacedI in 4, rather invidious position. Akliffica1 tv wvill also arise inl the sa levardswhere there il bIle found at variety ofbrands.

lien. L. t,'ahr: Not under this Bill.lon. C. F. B3AXTER : Ini the salcyards

there will i ma riablv bie found small flockstogether and the farmier-trader who is buy, -in, Sheep Iviil start cullinlg uintil lie findish inmelf wvithi a nu tmber of sheep wviths severaldifferent brands.

lion. 11. Craig,: I thiought You meant sev-,eral brands onl thle one sheep.

ll. C. F. BAXTER: No, onl the differ-ent sheep.

Hon. L. Craig: That is inevitable.lion. C. F. B3AXTER: I feel sure that

when the Bill is agreed to it will do a greatdeal to iiiiic sheep stealing. I supportthe Bill.

HON. L. CRAIG (South-West) [7.52]:The Bill should be read more or less in con-junction with the Droving Bill, the objectof which is to mninimise, as munch as pos-

sible, sheep stealing. Personally I do notthink there is as much stealing as there issupposed to be. Sheep do die. However,steaiing does take place. On our propertywe happened to lose 8,000 sheep last year,but we knew they were not stolens; they werewashed out to sea. Other people mayhave said they were stolen. The objectiveof the Bill is good. It is not only neces-sary to make lawvs to prevenst sheep or stockstealing, but it is important to snake lawsthat are workable and that canl be reason-ably administered. There are sonse provi-sions is the Bill that wvill be difficult toadminister. It is proposed that all shseepust be braisded, including sucker lansbs for

export. I have been in touch with time liin-ister and line has assured me that hie willamtend that part of the Bill to exempt lamibsunder six months old.

Th Chlief Secretary: I shall haive theamenadnsents ois the Notice Paper to-mor-r-ow-

Holl. L,. CRAIG: Lambs for exhort aletaken fronm the' ewves and put into trucks,and the lamb which at the sucker stageweighs about 34 lbs. dressed is very tender.If you eatchs it by the wool there will be abruise wyhics wvill exhsibit itself when thelamb is killed. Bransding would take placeimmediately before trucking and thelanib wevonld lbe badly discoloured by thme timseit got to the ahattoirs. I asked anl agentwhat line thought would be the loss us valuethrough discoloration of the skin and hetold me that it would be at least Is. Pei'[sead. I aim glad, therefore, that the Min-ister has aigreed to exempt from brandinglambs under six months old. Another pointof imiportanice is that registered stud sheepshould also be exempt. Many of these aretaken to the show and they would certainlybe spoiled by having a tar brand on the wool.These sheep are treated carefully for showpuirposes and, besides, registered stud sheepare identified by other means. Corriedalesand British breeds are marked onl one ear anda tattoo is put on the othser ear and' this can-not be remsoved by anyone. Therefore, thesesheep can always he identified. With merinorains the hsorns are fire-branded, that is, thebrand is burnt into the horn and in thatway they are identified. Consequenstly thereis no necessity to bransd registered studsheep and I trust they too will be exempt.

The Chief Secretary: They will be.

[17 SEPTEMBER. l935.: 687

lion. L. CRAIG: I am glad to hear that.The provisions of the Bill will be hard toadrminister. but I know that they are neces-sarvy. I do not k-now how it will be pos-silble to put on to the skin broker the re-"ponsibilitv of finding out mutilated or Put

eas tis provided that any person whohas in hi, possession a skin the ears ofwhich have been cut off or niuti lated willbe guilty of an offence and wvill be subjectto a severe penalty.

lion. A. Thomson: There are only one ortwo in a thousand.

]T[ou. L. CRAIG: There were 20,000skins sent per ,week into the brokers'stores. From the -Northy they comneclown in bles, and from the agricul-tural areas they are seat down in bundles.The provision puts the responsibility on theagents to diseo,-er all mutilation. It willbe difficult, for the ears are pressed rightinto the wool, rats perhaps have been atthem, and] possibly some of them have beencut lw the knife when the sheep) were killed.I do not k-now- how the agents are to respondto that prYovision, but it is in the HillI, andthe Minister saYs lie will not take it ont.

Hon. H. 1'. Piesse: It is in both the Vic-torian anad the -New South Wales Acts, andis narried out there.

lion. L. CRAIG : I did not, know thant.It will men i n extra staff, and if an extrastaff is put on we know wvho will have topay for them.

Hon. A. Thoms~on : You (10 not mlean inthe country' agents' offices3

H-Ion. L. CRAIG: 'No, but in the woolstores. However, I am not trying to putthis through as an amendment, hut the pro-vision is going, to be very difficult to adl-miniister.

Hon. C. F. Baxter: Do not stress that,or the agents will raise their fees.

Honl. L. CRAIG: No doubt they will. Iam just pointing to a provision that is goingto be difficult. The skin brokers pay £10 perannumn for a license, but the itinerant dealer,the man who goes about the country buyingsmall lots, pays nothing.

Hon. G. W. M1iles: He requires to be cutoult.

Hon. L. CRAIG: He is the manl who isbuying stolen skins to-day. There can beno doubt about that. The man who is steal-ing sheep and selling the skinls waits until ahawker-dealer conies round, and disposes ofhis skins to him. It seems to me necessaryto make the itinerant dealers pay a license

fee. I discussed this also with the Minister,and hie said lie would provide for it inanother Bill at sonie future date. I hopethat will iiot be lost sight of for it is mostimportant. It is of no use watching reput-able people when p~eople whonm we knowniothlung about arc free to carry onl the tradeto ani. extent they' choose. I hav.e heard itsaid that one of those itinerant dealers saw.a ni~rw cr. Pointing to a sheep nearby, thedealer said, "Tommty, the skin on that sheepis worth Gs." Tommy at once caught thesheep, killed it, skinned it, and sold the skinto the dealer. To-da 'y the police have iiopower to go on any mil 's place and say, "Iwant to hook at your skins.'" It is verynecessary that the police and the in-spectors should have that p~ower. If theysuspect a man of having stolen skins, is itnot necessary that they should have author-ity to go on a man's place and inspect hisskins? To-day that can only be done bywarrant. Power should be given to everypoliceman to go to a manl wvithiout ally noticeat all and search his prenmises for stolenskins. Other methods of dealing withl sheeptealiiig will conic under the Droving Act

Amendment Bill. It is difficult to separatethe one from the other. Thiis Bill has thefull support of the pastoralist. At presentpastorahists with few exceptions do not haveregistered brands, and no sheep are brandedon the statioiis until they start travellingdown to the markets, whlen they are brandedwith a T on the back, whiech means travel-ling. Under the Hill each pastoralist willbe required to have a proper registeredbrand. He may not use it on his stationsheep, but if he intends to send sheep downfor sale he will have to brand then, with thatregistered brand. This is very desirable,lecatise at present a drover withi perhaps3,000 or 4,000 sheep is paid on the nlumberof sheep lie delivers at their destination. Be-cause of drought or other good reasons hemay drop 40 or 50 sheep on the way, butmay easily pick up a further 30 or 40 sheeplater on. He nmny then get a piece of wood,make a T out of it, and brand the newrcomers with it. So I say this newr provisionis very desirable. I will support the secondreading.

HON. H. V. FIESSE (South-East)[8.8] : I will support the Bill, and I con-gratulate the Government on havingbrought it down. First of all, the RoyalAgricultural Society requested that the

[COUNCIL.]

Bill be brought forward, and surely themen onl the committee of that society arepractical mnen in thle stock business of Wes-tern Australia, I had several queries inmind 'when first I decided to support tileBill, and I was pleased to hear Mr. Craigand the Chief Secretary say the Ministerfor Agriculture had agreed to the non-branding of lambs under six months. Theear mark will be quite sufficient to registerthe brand of anl owner onl a lamb beingasent to thle market as a lamlb. I uinder-stand that in New South Wales and Vic-toria all sheep are registered after sale inan open market, and have to be deliveredwith the earmarks shown on the receiptthat is given. That is most important.Naturally our stock agents in WesternAustralia will object to this provision, butI think it is essential that it should bethere. I remember -many years ago buyinga mob of 8,000 sheep in the Bridgetown dis-trict. The drover I engaged for them re-marked upon the branding of travellingsheep, and I told him the most simplebrand he could get was thle bottle brand.J instructed him to put the bottle brandon the sheep. Later I met that manl drov-ing the sheep to Katanning. He told miebe had lost 40 or 50 of them, but bladpicked up another 50 or 60, saying lie didnot k-now where they had been picked up,but they hlad not the bottle brand onl them.It would hlave been perfectly simple forthat muan to have found any bottle andLused it as a brand.

Hon. G. WV. -Miles; Did yokt let hin doit?

Hon. H. V. PIESiSE: I did not suIOgestanything of the kind. I am showing howeasy it is for any mian travelling sheep todefeat the law and increase his mob asthey go along.

Hon. J. Cornell: Do not these provisionsapply to sheep as they leave the market;is that necessary!

Hon. H. V. PIESSE: Thle condition laiddown for the future is that you have tobrand those sheep in sending- them to themarket, to brand them with a wool brand.That does not apply to suckers, for whidithe earmark will do. Manny times in thle miar-kets have I noticed the wide diversity ofearmarks on sheep. Whenever I have beenthere to buy a large mob of sheep I havecarried my own registered brand anti

branded thle sheep I purchased beforethey left the yard. I hlave done that formy own protection, The Bill provides thatprotection for the owners of sheep.

Hon. J. Cornell: Do you have a firebrand.?

Hon. H. V. PIESSE: Yes, for the horn.Hon. J. Cornell: Not for the nose?Hton. H. V. PIE SSE: No, that is very

lpainful. IALfr. Craig has already explainedthe branding of stud sheep. I have had agreat deal of experience with stolen sheepin the Great South ern. I do not say Ihave received stolen sheep, but I haveknown of many deaths occurring amongstsheep onl properties and the owners declar-ing that thle sheep had been stolen. In onecase a little timle ago a fire went throughpart of a big property I control, and inconsequence 00 sheep were burned to deathin anl isolated position. We could not ac-count for them until 16 monthis afterwards.Man11Y )COPle may have imagined that theirsheep were stolen, whereas they may havedied a natural death and disappeared, Sonic-timies it has been assumed that sheep steal-ing is mnore rampant than it 'really is.

Honi. E. H. Gray: People have lost huind-reds of sheep in thle Gnowauigerup, district.

Hon. Hf. V. PIESSE: I know of one manwho was thought to hlave been losing sheep,and the hlere of his hills of sale decidedto inspect his flock. H-e went to a neigh-hour and suggested that 200 of his neigh-hour's sheep should be put onl to his fallowto eat it down. The neighbour agreed, andwhen the holder of the bill of sale camnealongc and saw the sheep there) he wvent awayperfectly satisfied that the farmer bad hissheep onl thle property. I am glad the Billhas been introduced, for it will help thosepeCople who really arc having their sheepstolen. The only contentious 'point isin regard to agents having to give receiptsfor sheep that are sold and have earmarksupon them. The point is a good one, andshould be included in the Bill, even if itleads to a little more expenditure.

HON. G. W. MILES (North) [8.17] : Icong-ratulate the Government upon bringingdowa this Bill. It is the first measure tobe introduced by the present Minister forAgriculture. I am glad he was selected forthat portfolio. The introduction of this Billis a complete reply to Government critics,who said that thle present Administration

[17 SEPTEMEU, 1935.] 689

had no agricultural conscience. I supportthe second reading.

HON. A. THOMSON (South-East)[8.18] : I cong-atulate thle Governmient uponbringeing- down thle Bill, whether they, haveali agricultural conscience or not.

Hon. G. W. Miles: Your own peoplewould not introduce it.

Halon. A. THOMSON : I am glad to havethe assurance of the Chiefc Sec retarv that

lie proposes to make provision for lambsunder the age of six months. If the exporttrade in lambs is to be built uip, we must seeto it that lambs are handled as little as pos-sible. Mr. Craig referred to mnutilated ears.

Most sheep skills ale put-chased by countrystorekeepers. I see no great difficulty aboutthe inspection of the skins. I do, however,see a difficulty in keeping visible the brandsonl lon-wool sheep.

Hon. L. Craig: lIn sonmc places they wouldhave to be branded two or three times ay-ear-

lion. A. THOM1SON : Yes. The Bill islong overdue. Anything that canl he doneto prevent sheep stealing, should lie done.The Government are to be congratulateduponii eeting the wishes of sheep ownersand agricultural societies in this way. itmight be a bad precedent to allow the policeto visit properties at any time and demandto see all sheep skins there may be on theplace. I agree that hawkers and sheep skinbuyers generally ought to be licensed. Isupport the second reading.

HON. J. J. HOLMES (North) [8.23]: 1agree w-ith Mr. Craig that this and theDroving Bill are dovetailed. It is diffi-cult to . discuss one without the other.I congratulate thme Government uponbringing down these two measures, asthey- are long overdue. I am inclinedto think that the proposed legislationought to have been made more strict.Mr. Craig seems to think there is not somuch sheep stealing as may be imagined.He assumes that the mortality occurs in thebash or in souse other way. I know thatsheep have been taken out of cleared pad-docks, and, if they had died, their careaseswould have been seen. Expert thieves havespecially trained dogs. They pull up out-side a rabbit-proof fenice and, with the aidof their dog-s. round lip the sheep quietly,lift thenm over the fence, and take them2WaVV. No sheep should be travelled by

truck, night or day, except under license.The police should be allowed to visit pre-raises and insIpect the sheep skins. If I werea policeman and were refused the right toinspect sheep skins, I would go ait once fora Wvarranit.

B-In. Li. Craig: Anrd when you got backthe skinis might not he there.

lion. J. J. hOLM,1ES: I would rather armthe police with a genecral wvarrant to inspect.All skin buyers should be licensed so thatthey maiy be traced, otherwise they may getaway not only with the skinls but with thecaleases. Reference was made to the exip-tiot, from branding of lambs under sixmonths. If thle Iambs are to remain on thestation, the owner will brand them. Thosethat are destined for slaughter and exportshould be exemiipt from branding, providedthe- a v re sol d tor- slaughIter wh-len the3- reachthe market. It is harmiful to lambs to hirandthemn. Horses iad cattle are branded with afire br 'and, but shecep anrd lambs arc brandedwith a wool brand. When the liquiiid is beingforced on to the hack of a liamb, a consider-able anmount of i nj u ryx is dione to the I)ody.It lambs are going to be slaughtered andsold for export, the branding should he chit-inated. Many lamubs go into market thatare not fit for export. These are sometimesbought by a grazier and taken a way.

Ron. k. V. Piesse : That is all 'righlt ifthey are earmar-ked.

Hfon. J. J. HOUN ES: If the policevisnited the property and saw lambis withoutany brand on them, some difficulty mnightarise.

H-on. 1-I. V. Piesse: The owner would havethe auctioneer's certificate wvith the earmarks.

Hon. J. J. HOL'MES: This legislationshould bie tightened up and made as severeas possible, but I do not wvant the House togo to extremes. Sheep stealing has becomeat menace, although 31r. Craig doubts that.Even in the South-West, larger animals thansheep have disappeared. Cows from thegroup settlements have disappeared, andno0 one seems to know where. If peoplecan get away with, full-grown stock in thesouth, they can get away with shieep andlambs in other areas. Sheep stealing is im-doubtedly rampant, and the Governmenthave realised the necessity for taking stepsto prevent it. I u~nderst and there has beena conference b~etwveen the Police D~epartment,the Agricultural Department, and otherauthorities. For a long time the police havedesired authority to act, but have not had

[COUNCIL.]

the nec-essaryx- pow~er. I h10pe4 tis legislationiwill give it to them. I support the Bill.

HON. E. H. ANGELO (North) [8.30]: 1welcome the introduction of the Bill, andof its companion measure dealing withdroving. If this legislation is passed, itwill furnish highly necessary means ofchecking a crime -which is becoming rain-pant in the State. I quite agree with Mr.Craig's remarks regarding the giving ofpower to police constables to mnake inspec-tions in places where skins are being dealtwith, and also regarding the necessity forlicensing hiawkers. I suggest to the hon.member that he give notice of amendmentswhich will enable these matters to be in-troduced into the Bill. I support the sec-ond reading.

HON. 0. H. WITTENOOM (South-East)[8.311: I also support the second reading,and join with other memibers in congratu-lating the Government on having broughtdown the measure. Certainly it has beenbrought~down none too soon, as we all knoithat, more particularly in the farmingareas, sheep stealing has been rampant for.years, and has been and is getting worse.I think one lion, member mentioned thatthe burden was felt chiefly in the farmingareas, but I canl assure the House that the,evil is now getting very bad in the pastoraldistricts.

Hon. J. Cornell: Then the miner is notthe only man ever to do a bit of stealing!

Hon. C. H1. WITTENO0lIT: I am makingno reference to miners. It is recognised.by many farmers that the evil is becomingworse and worse. An hon. member hassuggested that it is not quite as bad ashas been stated, but we know it is prettybad. On the question of lambs-and I nowhave in mind export lambs more particu-larly-I amn pleased that Mr. Craigmade reference to the question of brandingunder the age of six months;, and I amglad the Minister has stated that brandingwvonid not be required under the age, ofsix months. Branding, would certainly meana detriment in the ease of export lambs,which should he in perfect condition.

H1on. G. W. Miles: It refers to unshornlambs only.

Hon. C. H. WITTENOOM: Yes. If themeasure is passed-as I have no doubt it

will be-it -%ill go a long way towardsminimising thle stealing that is now goingon in various farming districts.

HON. L. B. BOLTON (2MNetropolitan)[8.33]: Probably because I happen to befarming in a more respectable district thansomne of those which have been mentionedthis evening, I have suffered very littleloss; and I believe little loss has been suf-fered in the district as a whole. However,I support the Bill because I appreciate thenecessity for it. While sheep stealing maynot be so rampant in the M1idland as insome other districts, the nieasure is justas necessary in the Midland district, inview of the facilities to-day existing forsheep stealing. I commnend the Govern-ment for introducing the Bill.

Questioa put and lpnssed.

Bill read a second timie.

BILL-PROVING ACT AMENDMENT.

Second Reading.

lDebate resunied from the 11th September.

HON. L. CRAIG (South-West) [8.36):This measure is on all fours9 with the(,previous Bill, being intended for the samnepurpose. Under thle existing Droving Actstock cannot lie moved over any distance ex-coeding 40 miles without awaybill. Thepastoral. areas approve of the proposed re-duetion of that distance to 15 miles. Underthe Bill any stock moved for any purposeover a distance of more than 15 miles mustlie accompanied by a waybill. The existingAct applies only to districts north of the-Mlurchison River. The provisions of tileBill are intended to apply to the wholeState. In farming districts' it will he dimf-cult to comply with some of the conditions-

1)roposcd, particularly as regards sheep sentto the metropolitan area for sale-that is, tothe Midland Junction salcyards. To-dayapproximately 250 sheep farmers are send-ing in every week approximately 18,000 or10,000 shieep. The biggecr butchers, such asthe Anchorage and Lange, may buy 4,000 or5,000 sheep fronm 100 to 150 differentowners. Under this measure a separate way-bill would have to he made out for eachseparate lot of sheep removed fromn MNid-land Junction to Frenmantle for slaughter.I discussed this matter with the Minister,

[17 SEPTEMBER, 1935.] )

and hie assured rue that hie intended to e-ILrnpt sheep Sent for sale to the mietropolitan.area. As regards sheep consigned to -Aiii.land Junction for sale, tile essence of the'contract is speed. In fact, sheep contirnenceto be delivered on trucks an hour after pur-chase.

Hon. J, J. Holines: lit some or Lhesheep go back to the country districts.

TIon. L. CRAIG: This refers to sheep sentto Mlidland )lunctioni for Ai-rgte-. I under-stand that in order to meet tIre requiremjentsof the Bill as it ;tamrds, thre making out orax-hJills would t ake more than 24 hours.

One brand of shecep 'would lie bought, byfour or five different butchers. Those sheer,would have to be cut upl into Four or five!separate lots, aind a waybill niade out torCeh lot. That wvould he unworkable. Hlow.ev-er, I understand tire Minister intends loexempt slheeip sent to Mlidland .lunction F'a--slaughter. My object i6 to try to catch strepeoiplc who ave believed to be doing thestealing, to-day. It is gencrallv agreed thatlorries ore one of tire prime factors by mneansof which stock are stolen. A lorry can pickuip live sheerp or dlead sheep and removothorn fromn tire district in next to no time.To-day miany farmers and dealers are kill-iug their owir sheep or cattle and seniding-them to the metropolitan mneat mnarket.There is no meanrs of chiecking those people.One manl, I amr told, sends in at least 50(Ireszsed shepep to the mreat mnarket everyweek.

lion. G-. W. Miles: Has not hie got toleave tire ears on thme sheep-'

Hon. 13. CRAICG : The point is that he hanssheep or' his farm :30 or 40 or perhaps 10aides akWa%'..

Hon. L. B. Boltonm: He has to leave tirecars on the carease.

IHon. L. CRAIG: He has to leave themion the skin. One can imag-ine the ease of

amian who has no lair whatever to abide byv.le buys, breeds, or somehow secures a nuar-.her of sheep or cattle. He kills then, on hi,;,own farm. He can, if lire likes, destroy theskins. He puts the carcases on a lorry andconveys thenm to the meat market, amnd on the-same day they are gone. Stich people mustbe checked. Tfley may be perfectly honest;I do not say they are not;, but under thoseconditions it is easy to steal sheep.

Hon. 3. J. Holmes: Are those peoplelicensed?

fom. U.. CRIilG : They are riot licensed.Thex' can bring down mnutton wiri dirtysheep-skins, and tallow atlI ruit-boxes.They have not to compl 'y wihm any health-orditions. Tire;- -ain lerave dirty rubbish1

On tire track, mire thenr deliver the mneat tothe market. Threy are tire people we- should,'o for. The Miiste~r hasr infortned ilethat Unrder anotheri Bili he wviil deal wxiththat a :peet. either J) licc'nre or other-wise; arnd I trim sinre the horn). g'entlemanwill d o i t. T[his Bill k riot For hegiti-inate fir-ars, for gelin, hionest stocklirnts. Win- should riot those other peoplEComlyi with health conditions? I t is von-sidered desirable that all meat sold i themetropolitan area should he killed in themretropolitan area. but that is not as easy tobring about as it sounds. In the dairyingareas most bull calves are left ont the eovor Irand-fed for a fortnight, and then arckilled and sent to tie metropolitan area asveal. 'rThe Bill would eliminate all 'thattrade. It is irmpossible to send a bull calfdown to the metropolitan ahattoirs to beslaughtered. However, that poinit does notenter into the Bill, and so I leav'e it for themormeit. H-owever, it is necessary to ex-ploer- evr-c avemnue withi a view to caterimrinr Who re Ibelieved to be stealing. Undetthis Bill a mnan droving- stock over 15 mnilemust have a. waybill arid must, notify thecpoli1ce of Iris intention to move stIock.

Henoi. J. Cornell : Thant condition will bc1)0pulIari.

lion. TL. CRAIG: In thre South-Wecst to-dlay marry settlers, especially the oldetsettlers, ]rave a coast range. Thre setilenthemselves live in Bridgetown. or M1anjiniperhaps, arid they have areas on thre coastto whichr they send their cattle during ce-tamn lperiods of the year either to give then]la clrarnge or to relieve the home padldocksThey g-o dowvn periodically to see if thecattle -ire all right, lint they do not knowunrtil threy get ther-c whether they will bringthe stock hack. If it is found that thecattle have fallen away or, or' the other hand,if they have iniproved to the required] ex-tent, the owner will probably desire to movethem. Under the Bill it will be necessaryfor those people to return 630 miles in orderto notify the police that they intend to movethe cattle fromr the coast. I dliscussed trismatter with the Minister, hut I am notquite sure with what result. I was led tcunder-stand that, in that event, the fartuei

691

(COuN OClf,]

could make out a waybill and put it in hispocket. If he were stopped, the manl couldproduce a waybill. If that is the position,it may be all right.

Hon. C. F. Baxter: The samie thingapplies now; the farmer would send a copyof thle waybill to thle Chief Inspector ofStock.

Hon. L. CRAIG: Now hie will have tonotify the police in addition. Perhaps thlegrowers Iwill observe these requirements,when they know the provisions of the Act!

Hlon. J. Cornell: Whet are the police sup-posed to do if the rtriuircecnts are not ob-served?7

Hon. L. CRAIG: I admit it is necessaryto deal with this trouble.

Hon. A. "M. Clydesdale: Could not theFarmer telephone the police?

Hon. Ls. CRAIG: There are no tele-phones in that part of the far South-West.What I do regard as necessary is that thepolice be notified by the man who is killingstock and selling earease meat. It wouldnot be too miuch to ask other than butchersthat when killing stock for sale they shouldnotify the police of their intention to kill.

Hon. G. AV. Miles: Should they not beregistered?

Hon. L. CRAIG: The Government willdecide that point. The police should knowwhen such people intend killing. Theyshould have power to go on a property andinspect the brands. on the sheep that arekilled in this way.

Hon. J. Cornell: Who inspects the stockbefore the meat is niaci available f or humlanconsumption?7

lion. L. CRAIG: I presumei the healthinspectors do that.

The hlonorary Minister: The meat isinspected before it is submitted to auction,hut the system is not as satisfactory as itshould be. The carease is marketed withoutthle entrails, and the health inspector is notin a position to carry out a proper inspec-tion.

Hon. L. CRAIG: There should be a checkup)on the killing of sheep for sale, and thereshould be inspections at the places of killing.Recognised butchers have to comply withcertain conditions, and obviously thereshould be some check upon farmers who killon their farms for other than their own con-sumption. If such farmers kill -regularlythey could notify the police that, say, everyTuesday morning at 9 a.m. they will kill.

Hon. }I. V. Piesse: Are you referring tobackdoor traders in meat?

Hon. L. CRAIG: No, not necessarily.There may he some who are receivers ofstolen sh~ep; we do not know. We mustexplore every method by which we cancheck sheep-stealing. The Bill will imposea. hardship upon recog-nised farmers who arecertainly not sheep stealers. The people whoare doing the stealing arc those over whomwe should have sonic cheek.

I-Ion. C. F. Baxter: How else could wecheck them?

lion. L. CRAIG : There is no provision inthe Bill for keeping a cheek onl the manl whokills and( sells his mecat, in the metropolitanmarket, I do not know whether any suchprovision canl be made in thle Bill. If itcannot. I hope that pliaze will be dealt within somec other mecasure.

HON. H. V. PIESSE (South-East)[8.50] : I was pleased to hear 'Mr. Craigsay that lie had interviewed the Minister re-garding carease sheep sold in the mnetropoli-tallnmarket for delivery for buitchering puir-poses. I am satisfied that the Bill is essentialto deal with the sale of sheep in countrycentres. It is miost difficult for any Govern-mient iaspeetor to prove the ownership of'a sheep, once it is killed and despatched forsale. I consider that at certificate shouldbe available from the local police, as sug-gested by Ma'x. Craig. It is a simple matter-to dress any beast and put it up for sale.

Hon. C. F. Baxter: You would not suggestthat everyone who sent carcase uncat to theiuetropolitan market should notify the police.and get a certificate?

Hon. H. V. PIESSE: I know it is mostdifficult. The method suggested is one wayof helping to avoid the defrauding of ownersof their sheep. The position is full of diffi-culty. For instance, if an inspector wereto go on a property and inspect sheep thathad been killed, howk could he prove thata skini he found there was from any par-ticular sheep that had been dressed? Itwas because of such difficulties that thePrimary Producers' Association and theRoyal Agricultural Society suggested thatall buyers of carease meat should he given,on their recipt, particulars of the regis-tered brands and so forth.

Hon. J. J. Holmes: It relates purely tocarcase meat, and it is illegal to sell such

meat unless it is passed by an inspector.

(17 SEPTEMBER, 1935.] 693

1101. H. X. PIESSE: But as the Ministerhas pointed out, thfe loeat has to be stampedin Perth before it can be sold, hut in theexisting circumstances no inspection of theentrails or skins, is p)ossible. We can sendlmutton, veal or lam]) from the country areasto the metropolitan markets whlere it is ex-:lined before it is submitted to auction.Bv that means, stolen shieep canl be broughtn ad lib. That is why' we support the sug-

gestion that the man who buys, say, 200 or300 sheep should have the earmarks antdreg-istered brands set out onl his receipt. Isupport thfe Bill.

EON. W. J. MANN (Southi-West ) [8.535]:I am in accord with practically the wholeof the provisions of the Hill, but in Comn-nuittee I hope sonme more simnple method willbe devised for dealing with the handling- ofstock travelled from one part of a districtto another. Reference has already beenmade to a practice that is extensive in theSouth-Western areas, that of taking- cattlefrom the highlands to the coast. The beastsare travelled for distances upwards of 80miles and are allowed to remain on thecoast for some time. The cattle are thenmustered. They have been allowed to ro amaway fromt civilisat iou or from townshi osIf the stock are found to he in a conditionthat makes it inadvisable to move them, themiusterers simply have to return to time hom2stead, On the other hand, it may be impera-live to move the stock at once. If the Billbe agreed to in its present form, it will mneanthat that could not be done as the partywould have to return to notify the policeof their intention to move the stock.

Hon. G. W. Miles: The owner would caveto inspect the stock each time.

Hon. W. J. MIANN: But the owner (lilanot always inspect the stock.

Hon. G. W. Mfiles: He will have to infuture.

Hon, W. J. MANN: That is nonsense.The owner himself may be in Perth.

Hon. C. F. Baxter: At any rate, he wouldhave to give notice to the police before hecould shift the cattle.

Hon. W. J. 'MANN: This particular pointrequires clearing- up. If the owner weregiven a permit to take the cattle to thecoast and travel themi back within a speci-fled number of months, that should be suffi-

cient. The meothod suggested in the Bill iscertainil*y not helpful to settlers.

Question ])llt and passed.

Bill rend a second time.

Ho use adjourned at 8.58 V.mn.

Tuesday, 17th September, 1935.

Assent to Bil ....1..1.B116 : Rural Relief Fund, 311... ..

Electoral, 2R. ..Land Tax and Income Tax, 2R1. .. ..Industrial Arbitration Act Amendment, 2R1., Corn.

report ........... ............Trmite.m Pourer Amendment, returned ..Fremantle (Skinner street) Disused cemetery

Amendment, returned .. .. ..Traffico, Con,. .. .. .. .. ..

Anual E,tlmatee, 1035-36, Corn, Of Supply ..

The SPEXKR took the Chairpin., and read p)rayers.

PAn B693693693703

703704

704704710

at 4.30

ASSENT TO BILL.

Mfesae from the Lieut.-Governor re-cived and read notify' ing assent to the Ban-bury Racecourse Railway DiscontinuainceBill.

BILL-RURLAL RELIEF FUND.Read a third time andt transmitted to

the Council.

BILLr-ELECTORAL.

,Seco,,d R~eading.

THE MINISTER FOR JUSTICE (Hon.J. C. Willcock-Oeraldton) [4.34) in mov-ing thfe second reading said: It will be re-collected that towards the close of last ses-sion there were proposals to amend theelectoral law. However, the session hadreached a stag-e at which it w-as thoughtit wvould not be possible to have the fat-ter adequately dealt with here and in an-