191- Understanding How Gaming Disorder & Gaming Addiction ... · walked his own journey to overcome...

Copyright © 2018 Wellness Mama · All Rights Reserved

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Episode191:UnderstandingHowGamingDisorder

&GamingAddictionAreAffectingOurKids


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Child:WelcometomyMommy’spodcast.

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Katie:HelloandwelcometotheWellnessMamaPodcast.I'mKatiefromwellnessmama.com.Andthisepisodeisgoingtobesuperimportantforparents,butactually,surprisingly,notjustforparentsbecauseIamherewithDr.SamShaywhoisachiropractorfocusingonfunctionalnutritionandfunctionaltesting,butwhohaswalkedhisownjourneytoovercomea25-yearaddictiontovideogames,a15-yearaddictiontosugar,aswellasovercominginsomnia,gutproblems,andmoodissues.AndthoseareallthingsIgetatonofquestionsabout,butespeciallythegamingsidebecausethat's,obviously,averypopularthingintoday'sworldandalotofmomsemailmewithquestionsrelatedtothat.AndDr.Shayhelpsgamersandthosewithgamingdisorderunplugfromtheirscreensandgetbackintotheirlives.Andhealsocoachesconcernedfamiliesandfriendsofproblemgamersonhowtosupportthem.SoIthinkit'sgonnabeafascinatingepisode.Icannotwaittodivein.Dr.Shay,welcome.Andthanksforbeinghere.Dr.Shay:Thanksforhavingme,Katie.Ireallyappreciatetheopportunity.Iknowthere'salotofconcernedparentsouttherearoundproblemgaming.Andassomeonewhowasagamerstartingatage,youknow,8,9,andhaditfor25years,Icanspeaktokindofthewholelifecycleofvideogamesfromtheperspectiveasachild,allthewayupthroughanadult.AndI'mhappytoreallysharekindoftheinsightsofwhat'sgoingoninsidethemindofthegamerandalsohowtogetoutofthatparticulardigitaltrap.Katie:Icannotwaitbecausemybrotherwasagamer,isagamer.Idon'tthinkhe'severstruggledwithaddiction,butitwasn'tsomethingIwaseverthatattractedto.Soit'snotsomethingIunderstandwell,butnowthatIhavekids,Irealizeit'ssomethingtheymayhaveaninterestinatsomepoint.AndIknowalotofpeoplewhoareveryinterestedingaming,buttostartwith,I'dlovetohearyourstorybecauseIdon'tthinkIcandropalinelike,"A25-yearaddictiontovideogames,"withoutaskingyoutogiveussomecontextonthat.Socanyou,ifyoudon'tmindsharingyourpersonalstory?


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Dr.Shay:Sure.Thecondensedversionisthatmygamingstartedasameanstoescapestressandescapeboredom.SomyparentshadaprettyterribledivorcewhenIwassixyearsold.Itwassobadthatoneofmysistersendedupinahospitalwithableedingstressulcer.Andmyothersistersdealtwiththedivorceindifferentways.Idealtwithitbyhavingonehandontheremotecontroller,soontobegamecontroller,andtheotherhandinabagofsugar,whetheritwasKitKatsorHershey'sor,youknow,breakfastcereal,whichisbasicallyglorifiedsugar.Andsotomaketheconnectionearly,thecross-pollinationofsugaruseandvideogameuseliterallygohandinhandformeandforalotofotherpeople.AndIusedvideogames.IgotexposedtovideogameswhenIwas,like,eightornine.AndIusedittoescapefromthetroublesofthedivorce,aswellasdealingwithbullyingandsocialisolationandrejectionatschool.SoIwouldcomehomeandjustnumboutinfrontofascreen.

AndIalsousedittogetoutofboredombecauseIfoundschoolveryboringwhenitwasn'temotionallyharrowing.Andtheremaybeparentswhoarelisteningthatsay,"Well,mykidhasagreathomelife.Theyloveschool,buttheystillplayvideogames.They'renotstressedatall."Well,oneofthemostsinisterstressfulthoughtsIbelieveontheplanetis,"I'mbored."AndthereasonwhyIsayit'ssinisterisbecausepeopledon'trealizethat,"Iambored,"isaverystressfulstatetobein.Andpeoplelooktoavoidthatfeelingofboredom.Andvideogamesareliterallythemostplug-and-playwaytoescapeboredom,atleastintoday'ssociety.Sowhathappenedwasthat,Imean,Istartedplayingvideogames,youknow,very...Thisis,like,SecondMastersystem,NES,andthenlaterontheGameBoyandSecondGenesis.Imean,someoftheseconsoles,peoplemaynotbefamiliarwithbecausethey'resoold,butjustbasicallywalkingthroughthewholeoricofplayingconsolestoportablestocomputergames.AndthenIstartedinternetgamingactuallyintheearly'90s.ThiswasbeforeEthernet.Sothiswasalldial-upwhenitwasjust,like,lettersandnumbersrepresentingwhatyouweredoing.IplayedonegamecalledMediviawhereitwastextonly.Ifyoudidn'ttypefastenough,youknow,ifyouwere,like,youknow,you'reoutthereintheworldandthere's,youknow,thebasiliskfiresafireballatyou.Ifyoudon'ttype,"Attackbasilisk,"fastenough,you'regonnadieasyourdigitalcharacter.Sopeopletalkabout,"Oh,allthebenefitsofvideogaming."Isaid,"Well,IcanpointtoatleastonebenefitisIlearnedhowtotypereallyfast.I'mnotsureifitwasworththe25years,but,youknow,it'ssomething.SoIplayedonlinegames,onlineinternetgames,socialgames.AndIevenbeggedmysisteratonepointin,like,'95formoneytobuyadigitalcharacter.Sotheideaofspendingmoneyondigitalgaming,Ididthatasearlyas1995.Andit'sjustkindofincreasedfromthereintermsofworld-wide,youknow,paytoplayorspendingalotofmoneyonit.AndthenIgotinvolvedinanothergamecalledADOM,whichtookabouttwoyearsofmylife.Andthenincollege,thisiswhenEthernetwasfirstavailable.AndthisiswheregameslikeEverQuestandCounter-StrikeandUnrealTournamentwerereallypopular.AndIwouldwitnessfellowmembersofmydorm,like,justspendeighthoursadayplayingEverQuestand,like,actuallydoshiftseighthoursandthenhaveanotherpersondoaneight-hourshift.And,like,they'dactuallydoshiftstofarmvariousequipmentandlootandwhatnot.AndthenwhenIwentintochiropracticschool,IwasstillplayingADOMandkindofsologamesduringuniversity.Andtheninchiropracticschool,thatintroducedtotheonlinefreewhatwerecalledflashgames,whichwerebasicallyandNintendoandSegaMasterSystemqualitygamesfromthelate'80s,early'90s,that


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areavailableforfreenowbythehundredsandthousandsonline.Andtheyjustmaketheirrevenuethroughadvertising,theadvertisingcolumnsontheside.AndIdecidedinApril2014tostopgaming.Andwhathappenedwasthattherewasawomen'sexpothatIwasgonnapresentat.AndIwasgonnatalkonvideogameaddiction.Anditwasa5,000-personexpoinNewZealand.Anditdidn'treallysitrightformetobeplayingvideogames,yettalkaboutvideogameaddiction.SoIstopped.Andattheexpo,itwasreallyinteresting.Ihadoneofthebestboothswhereeveryonehadtopassbynotonlytogetin,butalsotogetout.AndIhadabigbannerthatsays,"Helpyourchild'svideogameaddiction."Andwhatwasreallyinterestingisthat...Katie,canyouguesshowmanyofthe5,000mothersandgrandmothersandauntiesthatcamethroughproactivelycameuptomyboothtoseekhelpfortheirchild'svideogameaddiction?Katie:Idon'tknow.Iwouldguessadecentnumber,justbecauseIhearfromalotofmomswhoareconcernedaboutthisthough.Dr.Shay:Three.Katie:Noway.Dr.Shay:Three,onlythree.Andtherestlookedatthesign,the"HelpYourChild'sVideoGameAddiction,"andgotreally,like,hadthisreallyinterestingexpressionofkindof,like,shockandfearand,like,quicklyturnedandwalkedawayorotherscameuptomeandweredefiantjustwithnowarm-up.Theyjustcameuptomeandstarteddefendingtheir...Ididn'tsayanything.Theyjustcameupandstartedverballyarguingwithmeortheparentswouldsay,"Oh,they'refine.They'llgrowoutofit.They'refine."AndIactuallywrotea4,000-wordarticleonmyblogonthefivewaysparentsusevideogamesasparentingtools,howtheywork,andhowtheybackfire.Andbytheway,IhadbothmyparentsandtwoofmysistersreadthisarticlebeforeIpublisheditbecauseIsaid,"Iwantthistobefair,notanattackpiece."Andtheyreaditandsaid,"It'sfine.Pleasepublishit."Andbasically,whatIgotfromthatexperiencewasparentsusevideogames,again,notmaliciouslyoranything.It'sjust,like,videogamesareawaytohaveaninstantrewardstructure.Youknow,youdogood,youcanplay.It'saninstantpunishmentstructure.Ifyoudon'tdothis,they'lltakeitaway.It'sawaytogiveatimeout.Like,it'scheapreliablebabysitter.Soyoucanputthekidsinfrontofavideogameandjustgiveyourselfasaparentabreak,eitherlongorshort-term.Andthentheotherreasonthatwasgivenwasoneparentbraggedtome.Hesays,"Youknow,IwantmykidstoplayvideogamesbecauseIcantrackthemwherevertheyarebecauseIputtrackingsoftwareontheiriPhone.AndIknowmysonalwayshashis...IknowwhereheisatalltimesbecausehealwayshashisiPhoneonbecauseheloveshisvideogames."Andtheparentsalsosaidthat,"Well,I'dratherthatmychildrenplayvideogamesinsteadofgetintodrugs,riskybehavior,gangs,orotherhigh-riskbehavior."Sohesaid,"Videogamesis...Youknow,Iknowwheretheyareatalltimes.They'reindoors.They'resafe.Thisisthelesserevil.AndI'mconfidentI'llgrowoutofit."Sothatwastheirreasoning,whichIcanunderstandthelogic.Andthat'swhatthearticlegoesintomoredepthabout,whereitworksandwhereitbackfires,butthethreewomenwhocameuptomewhosaidyes,theyhaveaproblemwiththeirkidsandthevideogamesandwanthelp,istheyallhadthethreeexactsamescenarios,theirkidsthatwereboomeranged.Theycamefromcollegeoruniversity,hadnojob,hadnorealsociallifeorromanticlife,andwerejuststaying


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inthehouseplayingvideogamesallday,notgoinganywhere,andgotveryreactiveandverballyabusivetowardstheirmotherswhenthemotherstriedtoexactdisciplineonthemtotakethevideogamesaway.Andonewomanevenexpressedconcernsthathersonwouldgetphysical,ifshetriedtotakethevideogamesaway.Soitwasverystartlingtohavethatcontrastofwherethestatewasofvideogamesandparenting.Nowgranted,thiswasoverfouryearsago.AndIthinktheculturehasshiftedsincethen.Andsomorerecognitionofthisisaproblem,particularlywiththemeteoricriseofgameslikeFortnite,LeagueofLegends,OverWatch,andotherkindofmoreonlinemassivesocialgaming.Katie:Wow.There'ssomuchIwanttounpackaboutwhatyoujustsaid,butfirst,Iwanttoestablishalittlecontext.Soagain,assomeonewhoneverreallyunderstoodvideogamesorneverthoughttheywereinterestingIguess,Ineverreallytriedthemmuch,evenasakid,canyouexplainpsychologicallyandalsojustfromabehavioralstandpointwhatmakesthemsoaddictive.BecauseIdon'thavefirst-handexperience.Andlotofmomslisteningmaybedon't,butthoseweren'taroundasmuchwhenwewerekids.WehadtheoldschoolNES,Ithink.AndIneverplayedit,butwhatisitaboutthem,especiallythenewones,thatmakesthemsoaddictive?Dr.Shay:Well,there'ssixmajorreasons.Numberoneisthatthey'reinteractive,isthatthey'reactuallyengaging.Andsothere'saparticipatorynatureofit.Imean,videogamesare...they'reasubsetofscreen-basedbehaviors.AndIcategorizethemintointeractive,passive,andmixed.Sointeractivearethingslikevideogames.You'reactuallyengagingwithitactively.Passivearethingslikewatchingmoviesandtelevision.Andmixedissocialmediawhereyoucaneitherbepassiveorproactiveinyourconsumption.Sovideogames,theyarefundamentallyinteractive.Otherwise,you'rejustwatchingsomeonegame.Theotherreasonsthatthey'reimmediateisthatliterallyyoucanstartavideogamewiththepushofabutton.Andtheyareintegratedandaccessible,whichwouldbethethirdreasonwhy.Youcanimmediatelyjumpin,butyou'realsoaccessiblefrom...Everypieceoftechnologyhashadavideogamecapabilitymovingintoit.Andthere'salsoexclusivetechnologies.Youknow,likethere'sconsoles,butyou'vegotiPhonesnowthathavevideogameswovenintoit,watches,even...ThereareVR,like,glasses,computers.Everypieceoftechnologyhasvideogameswovenintoit.Sotheyareeverywhere.Theotherreasonwhythey'resoaddictiveisthatthey'rerepeatable.Eitheryouplayitthesamewayoryoucanplayitwithdifferentstrategiesordifferentmethods.Theseso-called,like,openworldslikeLegendofZeldawasIthinkthefirstopenworldgamewhereyoucanjustwanderaroundanddostuffwithout...inanonlinearfashion.Like,youcanjustrepeatthesamegameindifferentways.They'realsonovel,meaningthatthere'salwaysnewgamesbeingputoutontothemarket.Now,Iknowthecomparisonofvideogamestorecreationaldrugsisalandmine,aminefieldrather,but,youknow,ittakesyearsanddecadesforanewstreetdrugtohit,butittakesamonthortwoforthenextnewgametocomeout.Sothere'salwaysnewmaterialandbetterandbettermaterialastechnologyandgraphicsadvanceandonlyjustgetmoreinteresting.Andthentheotherreasonwhythey'resoaddictiveisactuallyneurological.Thereisareflexinthebrainwiredthroughtheeyesandearscalledthetectospinalreflex.Thetectoreferstotheportionofthemidbrainwherethere'ssomespecialcircuitrytopayattentiontorapidchangesincolor,lightdensity,andmovement.Sothinkofapolicesiren.Like,everyonewillimmediatelytargetwiththeireyestheflashingpolicelightsbecauseit'smoving.It'salternatingcolorsredandblue.Andthebrightnessofthelightsisgettingbrighterasthelightgoestowardsyouanddimmerasitgoesaway.Andthat'sintentionalbecausetheeyewillautomaticallygetdrawn


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tothat.Andthat'sahard-wiredreflexfromashunter-gatherers.Ifyou'rewalkinginthebushandyouseeaflashoforangeoutofthecornerofyoureye,it'soutofthecornerofyoureye.You'renotactuallyfocusingonit,butifyouseeitoutofthecornerofyoureye,youreyeswilldartimmediatelytothatside.Youdon'tknowwhatthatwas,butyoureyeswillautomaticallytargetthat,youknow,rapidmovement,thecolororange,ortheshadow.Thechangeinlightdensityandbrightnessjustkindamoved.That'sahard-wiredgeneticreflextoprotectyoufromeminentemergencydanger.Sowhenyoulookatavideogame.Whatisavideogame?It'srapidchangesinmovement,rapidchangesincolor,andrapidchangesinbrightness.Andthat'swhyyoucanhavepeople,kids,adults,whatever,literallygluedtothescreenbecausethatreflexisconstantlybeingfiredtostareatsomethingthat'srapidlychangingbecauseyourbodyinterpretsitasapotentialdanger.Andthenontopofthat,youhavethelayeredinterestandexcitementandnoveltyandaccessibilityandrepeatabilityofthevideogameitself.Soit's,like,thisneurologicalreflexislayeredonit,aswell.Sothosearethesixmajorreasonswhyvideogamesaresoaddictive.Katie:Wow.Thatmakessomuchsensewhenyouexplainitlikethat.AndI'mcurious,too.Ifeellikeyoutouchedonthisalittlebit,butIfeellikethesocietalperceptionisthatthereismaybetheseteenageboysthatarereallysuckedintovideogames.Andthat'sthemaindemographic.Andit'susuallythese,like,shootergamesor,likeIsaid,itisnotmyfirst-handthings.Idon'tevenknowmuchaboutit,butisthatwhoyou'reseeingwho'sactuallyatriskorarethereothersegmentsofthepopulationthatareequallyatriskofvideogameaddiction?Dr.Shay:Yeah.Sothestereotypeyou'rereferringtoisthestereotypeofunder18maleswhoplaywargames,shooters,andfightinggames.AndwhatwillshockalotofyourlistenersisthataccordingtotheElectronicSoftwareAssociation's2018statistics,we'retalkingthisyear,under18maleswhogameisonly17%ofthegamingpopulation.Soforacontrast,femalesover18comprise33%ofgamers,whichisalmostdoublethenumberofmalegamersunder18.Now,peopleover50comprise23%ofthegamingpopulation.Someofyourlistenersmaybeveryconfusedbythesestatisticsbecausewhentheissueofvideogamescomesup,weconjureinourmindsthestereotypicalmaleplayingfighters,wargames,andshootersandsoon,butit'sthegenrethat'sdifferent.Somymother,aretiredmedicaldoctor,Imean,shewouldplayforhours.Youknow,she'swellbeyond50.Like,shewouldplayforhoursBoggleonheriPadorScrabbleorothertypeofdigitizedboardgames.Soit'sthegenrethatdiffers.Forthefemalesbetween35and50,thegenreisthemicro-gameslikeCandyCrush,DinerDash,AngryBirds,andsoon.Andthentheotheragegroupsandgenders,there'sjustdifferenttypesofgenresthatpeopleplayfromsmallappstoconsolestocomputerstowhateveritis.Sothestereotypicalgamerisnotthemaleunder18.That'sjustthestereotype.AndIthinkwhenwethinkofsomeonewhohasagamingdisorder,wehavetobroadenourperspectiveonwhothosepeoplemightactuallybe.Katie:Thatisfascinating.Andyeah,again,itmakessomuchsense.Socanyoualsoexplainbecausethisissomethingthatcameupwithreaderquestions,thiswholevicariousgamingthingor,like,Iknowpeoplewhowatchotherpeopleplayvideogamesevenonline.Canyoukindofexplainwhatthatisandwhythat'sbecomesopopular?Dr.Shay:Sure.Sothevicariousgamingisalsocalledsurrogategaming.It'sgamingbyproxyorbystander


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gaming.There'salotofdifferenttermsforitorsecondarygaming.Basically,it'swatchingsomeotherpeopleplay.Now,there'ssome,like,late-nighthostslikeJimmyKimmelwhothinksit'sabsurd.Andhe'sbeenpublicaboutthis.AndIcanunderstandwherehe'scomingfrom,but,youknow,peoplewatchpeopleplayingchess.Like,peoplewatchpeopleplayingsports.Andthereisthisdisconnect,particularlyamongsttheoldergeneration,ofhowcanwatchingsomeoneplayavideogamebeasimpressiveassomeonewatchingsomeoneplaychessorsportsoranythingelse?Andtheansweristhatifpeoplerealizedtheamountofskillthatwentintotheseworld-classgamers,theywouldappreciatehowdifficultitactuallyis,butI'mnotdefendingvicariousgaming.I'mjust,like,givingsomeperspectiveastowhytheseworld-classgamersareworld-class.Itactuallyisverydifficulttogettothatlevel.Thereasonwhyit'ssointerestingfromavicariousgaming...AndIcallvicariousgamingthedubiousnicotinepatchforvideogamedisorderbecausewhenIstoppedgamingin2014,IstartedwatchingalotmoregamingonYouTube.AndIrealizedveryquicklyit'slike,"Whoa.Waitaminute.I'musingthisasanicotinepatch.Andit'sbecomeitsownproblem."TheappealtowatchinggamesonYouTubeorTwitchorwhereveris,numberone,itmayleadtoadditionalgaming.Like,that'showIgotstartedonagamecalledADOMisIwatchedmyfriend,Ira,playit.AndIwas,like,sointerestedIreallywantedtoplayit.AndthenIlosttwoyearsofmylifeplayingthisgame.Theotherissueisthatyoucanwatchitfromaveryanalyticalstandpointofhowdifferentplayersapproachthesamepuzzleorbossfightorwhateverinverydifferentways.Soyoucanactuallylearnandseedifferentstrategiesplayout.Ifyou'retryingtoplayadifferentway,youcanuseitisstudymaterial.Theotherdangerofvicariousgamingiswatching"epicclips"becausethere'ssome...Imean,itspeakstowhyit'ssoappealing.Sothere'ssomevideogamesthataregenerallymoreinterestingthanmostmajormovies.Imean,somegameshavebiggerbudgetsthanmostmoviefilms.Imean,forexample,theGodofWarserieshas,like,someofthemostincrediblewhatyouwouldcallbossfightsbetweenknownmythologicalcreaturesliketheGreekgods.Like,youseeafull-oncolossal-sizebattlebetweentheanti-heroKratosandthegodPoseidonorHadesorZeusorwhatever.Andit'saveryengagingthingtowatch,particularlywhenthere'smultiplestrategiestoemploy.Andthenvicariousgaming,watchingonYouTube,youcanalsouseittoscoutdifferentgamesyoumayormaynotbeinterestedin.SoyoucanuseYouTubetochecktoseeifyouwanttogetintoaseriesorifyoudon't,you'vefinishedaseriesoronesectionofit,butyouwanttoseehowthesequelsareturningout,youcanjustflickonYouTubeandwatch,youknow,two,threehoursofsomeoneplaytheexpansionsorthesequelsorthedownloadablecontentknownasDLCandseeifit'sworthengagingin,actuallybuyingandplayingit.Theotheristhatyoucangetreallyengagedwiththepersonalitiesoftheonlinestreamers.Andtogivepeoplesomeconcepts,like,howcanyouconnectwithanonlinevideogamer,well,justthinkofAmerica'sGotTalent.Halfoftheshow'sappealisnotthetalent.It'sthefourjudgesandtheir,shallwesay,idiosyncrasiesandthedramathatunfoldsbetweenthem.Sotooinvicariousgaming,youcangetreallyinterestedinthepersonalityandhistoryand,youknow,engagementwiththepersonyou'restreamingwith.Like,you'vegottheguynamedNinjawho'snowahouseholdnameamongstthefamilieswhohavekidswhoplayFortnite.YouhadPewDiePiewhoisarguablythefirstrealworld-widevideogamerwhorocketedtofame.Andpeoplejustgetengagedwiththepeoplewhoareplayingbecausethentheybecomealmostlikeanextendedfriendinsomesensebecauseyou'vebeguntolearnaboutthemandknowthem.There'salsotheappealoftrailersurfing,thatvideogames,likewiththemoviebudgets,theyarealsomakingextremelyhigh-end,veryappealing,veryengaging,videogametrailers.Ifyoudon'tbelieveme,justgo...I'm


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notsayingyoudon'tbelieveme,butit's,liketolisteners,like,ifyouwanttoseewhatI'mtalkingabout,justgoontoYouTubeandputin,"Videogametrailers."Andwatchsomeofthem.Andyouwillbeabsolutelygobsmackedbyhowhigh-endsomeofthesetrailersare,betterthanmostmovietrailers.Sothewholeworldofvicariousgamingisitsownworld.Andit'sproblematicbecauseofhowengagingitisforitsownseparatesetofreasons,evenifyou'renotplaying.Andthat'swhyIcallitadubiousnicotinepatchbecauseit,inandofitself,canbecomeproblematic.Katie:Wow.I'msofascinatedbytheideaofthis.Andasyouweretalking,I'malsowondering.Soyou'vementionedthatforespecially,like,youngerchildren,butforanyone,thiscanbearemedyforboredomorit'sawaytofind,itsoundslike,kindofaconnectionbecausetheyfeelconnectedtothegameortootherplayersortheyarekindofwrappedupinthisworld.Doyouthinkthisisalsopartiallysymptomaticofmodernsocietyandthatlackofconnectionthatsomanyofushaveor...Like,I'mcuriousifyouhaveanyremediestotheparentslisteningthatyouwouldsuggesttokindofaddressthosetwothings,especiallytheboredomthathappensandalsoneedingthatconnectionbecausethat'sobviouslyaverynormalandhealthydesire,especiallyinchildhood,istoconnect,butinavideogame,thatdefinitelyisn'tthemostnaturalwaythatitwouldnormallyhappen.Soanyadvicetoparentswhomaybeseeingthosechangesintheirkids?Dr.Shay:Well,Ithinkyeah,lotsofthingsIcanrecommend.Andthefirstoneistoactuallyunderstandthesignsofagamingdisorder.And,like,actuallyhavingachecklisttoseeisthereaproblemhereorapotentialproblemhere?Sothefirstoneis...Like,there'sninemajorsignsthathavebeendetailedbytheAmericanPsychologyAssociation,ninesignsofpotentialgamingdisorder.Sothere'snineofthose,whichI'llcover,butthenthere'sthreeadditionalonesthatI'vecomeupwiththatImodeledaftertheCDC'sdefinitionofheavyandbingedrinking.And,again,theconnectionbetweenvideogameuseanddrinkingiskindofaminefield,butyou'llseeinamoment,butthere'sthingsyou'vereallygotto,asaparent,isthereaproblemhereoristhisjustcasualgamingthat'sjustfunandit'snotactuallyproblematic?SothefirstoftheninesignstolookforaccordingtotheAPA,preoccupation.Like,isaperson,whetherit'syourselforachild,justconstantlythinkingandplanningwhatthenextgamingsession?Now,Idefinitelywentthroughthisinmythroesofvideogameaddictionjustalwaysthinkingaboutgamingallthetime.Thesecondsigniswithdrawal,meaningsignsofdiscomfortorsideeffects,ifyoustop.Iabsolutelyhadmajoranxietyandwoulddivefurtherintomysugaruse,ifIhadmyvideogameprivilegestakenaway.Thethirdsignistolerance,meaning,like,youneedmorestimulation.Like,youjustgetusedtoit.Like,forexample,with...theoldgamesofNESbackintheearly'90sarenowviewedascampyorretroandnotasengagingorthrillingastheyusedtobe,youknow,20-plusyearsago.Soyouneedmorestimulation,morefaster,bettergraphicsandsoon.Thefourthsignisyoucan'tstoporcan'treduce.Like,ifpeopletrytostop,butcan't,thatwascertainlyme.Itriedtoquit,butthenI'djustgoback.Especiallyiftherewasanewstressorthatemergedinmylife,Ijustjumpedbackintovideogamesastheknownanesthesia.Thefifthsignisifyouorachildaregivingupactivitiesforvideogameslikenotwantingtosocialize,notcomingtodinners,eatingatthefamilydinnertable,notwantingtobeonvacationorifyou'reonvacation,allyou'redoingisplayingvideogames.Thesixthsigniscontinuingdespiteproblems,whetherit'sphysicalpaininthewristsortheneckormissingsleep.There'sevenaconditioncalledWii-itis,liketheNintendoWiiwiththelittlehandcontrolyouwavearound.Peoplegotrepetitivestressinjuriesfromthat.Theseventhoneisdeceptionandcoveringup,hidingorlyingaboutyourgaming.Like,Iwouldactuallytuckatowelunderthebottomofthedoortomasktheglowofthecomputerinthelatenightssomymother


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wouldn'tseemegamingfromthelightcomingunderneaththedoor,lyingabout,"Well,I'mjustgonnadohomework,"butactuallyit'sgoingtoplaygamesor,"I'mjustgoingtosleep,"andthentheytaketheiriPadortheirgamingdeviceunderneaththecovers,whichdefinitelyhappens.That'swhatIdid.Eighthisescapingadversemoods,whichwasusingvideogamestocopewithanxiety,depression,anger,resentment,oranyothertypeofnegativeemotion.Iincludeboredominthere,aswell,becauseIviewboredomasanegativementionthatpeopledon'trecognizeasanegativeemotion.AndtheninthsignbytheAPAisriskingandlosingrelationshipsandopportunities.Sohasgamingbecomesoproblematicthatit'ssabotaged,like,whetherthat'sgradesorjobopportunitiesorfamilyeventsoranythingelse?Hasitactuallycauseddamage?SothosearetheninesignsaccordingtotheAPA.MythreesignsareabitmoremeasurablebecauseIwantedsomethingthatanyparentoranypersoncouldactuallysitdownandcalculate,isthereapotentialproblemhere?Sothethreesignsareone,doyouoryourchildorfamilymemberorfriendgamemorehoursthanyousleeponanygivendayinamonth'speriod?Solike,"Oh,Islepteighthours,"butyougamedninehours.That'saproblem."Oh,Ionlygamedforfive,"butyousleptforfour.Sonomatterhowyousliceit,ifyoucomparethehoursofsleeptothehoursofgaming,thatisanabsolutemeasurablesignthattheremaybeaproblem.TheothersignisbasedoffoftheCDCortheCenterforDiseaseControl'sdefinitionofheavydrinking.SoaccordingtotheCDC,andyoucanlookthisupontheCDC'swebsite,heavydrinkingformalesisdefinedasover14drinksaweekoronaverage,morethantwodrinksperday.SoIjustreplacedtheterm"standarddrink"with"standardhour"ofgaming.Soinmybook,anyonewhogamesover14hoursaweekisa"heavygamer."Itdoesn'tmeanthey'readdicted.Itmeansthatthey'reaheavygamer.Justlikeifsomeonedrinksover14drinksaweek,itdoesn'tnecessarilymeanthatthey'reanalcoholic.Itjustmeansthatthey'reaheavierdrinkerandyouneedtohaveanotherlooktoseeif,youknow,there'sotherninesignsatplay.Thethirdsign,asIscrolleduptothedefinitionofbingedrinkingontheexactsamepageontheCDCwebsite,andbingedrinkingdefinedformalesisoverfourdrinkswithinatwo-hourperiod.SoIjusttranslatedthattogamingforatleastfourhoursstraightwithoutanytwo-hourbreakwithinthosefourhoursto"detox."Soifsomeonegamesforfourhoursstraight,that's"bingegaming"oriftheygamefortwo,haveaone-hourbreak,andthengameforanothertwo,that'sstillbingegamingbecausetherewasn'tatleastatwo-hourbreakto"detox."Sothosearethethreemeasurablesignstolookforagamingdisorder,gamingmorehoursthanyousleep,over14hoursofgamingaweek,andgoing4hoursstraightwithoutatleasta2-hourbreakinbetween.Andifanynumberofthosesignsareatplay,thenyouhavetolookatthentheotherninesignsthattheAPAhasputout,ifthereisactualgamingdisordergoingon.Sothat'sthefirstthingIwouldrecommendtoparentsistojustreallyhavealooktoseeifyou,afamilymember,oryourchildorafriendactuallyhasasignofagamingdisorder.Inregardstootherthingsthatparentscando,numberoneistoremoveallgamingdevicesfromthebedroom.Thatisabsolutelyrequiredbecausetheriskandtemptationofpeoplegaminglateatnight,hidingthedevicesunderthesheetsandplaying,orgettingupasIdidandjustplayingonthecomputerandtuckingatowelunderthedoor,that'sveryreal.Andifpeople'ssleepgetruinedbygaming,thenitbecomesaviciouscirclebecausepeoplethenwakeupfeelingtiredandexhaustedandcranky.Thenyou'refeelingmoreemotionallyanxiousorwhateverandtherefore,wantingtogamemoretonumboutfromtheloweremotionalresiliency


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becauseyou'rejustmoreemotionallyvulnerable,ifyou'resleep-deprived.Soitbecomesaviciouscycle.Theotherwayistonotgameafter8:00p.m.orideallyevenearlierbecausethatsametectospinalreflexthatkeepsthenervoussystemengagedtriggersastressresponse,whichmakestotalsense.Ifyouseeaflashoforangeoutofthecornerofyoureye,youknow,severalthousandsofyearsago,youwantyourstressresponsesystem,youradrenalsystem,yoursympatheticnervoussystem,tofire,justincaseitisanactualtigerthat'sabouttojumponyou.Youwanttobereadytogoandtosprintawayasfastasyoucan.Thosesamereflexestriggerthestressresponseinthehumanbodywhenyou'replayingavideogame.Soit'sactuallyampingupthestresssystemmakingitharderforpeopletogotosleep.Now,peoplemayfallasleep,youknow,duetosheerexhaustion,buttheirstresssystemisgettingampedup.Theotherthingistonotplayalone.Like,Ihaveanarticleonmywebsite,youknow,TheHolidaySurvivalGuideorTheWeekendSurvivalGuideforGamingDisorder,whereyoucanactuallytierhowmanyhoursyouoryourfriendoryourchildorwhoeverplays.Andsoif,say,youhaveamaximumoffourhoursorthreehoursadayofgamingonaweekend,it's,like,threehourssologaming,butifyou'replayingwithsomeoneonline,that'skindasomewhatsocial.Thenyoucangivethemfourhoursorifsomeone'scomeovertothehouseandthey'replayingtogetherinthesameroom,youcangivethemfivehours.Soyoucanscaletheamountoftimetheygamebasedonthelevelofsocialengagementasawaytotrytosomehowbakeinhumaninteractionasacompromise.Theotherwayistosimplyjustcutonedayofvideogamesaweek.That'slikeadigitalfast,sotospeak.ThereisalsoappsthatyouusedtoblockWiFiorblockgamesorblockwebsites.Theotherthatisabitmorecognitiveistokindof,like,chartoutone'sfuture.Like,whereamIgonnabeinfiveyears,ifIplaythislevelofgamingeverydayforthenextfiveyears?WhereamIgonnabeinmyprofessionallife,mysociallife,mypersonallife,myfamilylife,andsoon?Anotherwayisjustsimplytoaskforhelp,whetherit'ssocialsupportfromfamilyorfromothers,coaching,training,e-books,articlesandsoon,justtogetbettereducatedonhowtodealwithanygamingdisorder,whetherit'syourownorafamilymemberorfriends.Andthelastthing,youtalkedaboutconnection,thattheurgetoconnectisveryreal.Andthisisanotherreasonwhyvicariousgamingissoappealingisbecauseyoucanconnecttonotonlytheactivitythepersonisdoing,butthepersonwho'sdoingit,likeNinjaorPewDiePieorwhoever,butthedrivetoconnectisverydeep.Imean,humanbeingsaresocialcreatures.Imean,Irecommendanyonewho'slisteningjusttoreadSebastianJunger'sbook,"Tribe"toreallygetadeep,deepsenseoftheneedandthedriveforhumanbeingstoconnect.Andifyou'reaskingme,"Well,howcanwe,youknow,bringinarealconnectiontoreplacevideogames?"That'snotaveryeasyanswer.Andit'salsonotnecessarilyaverycomfortableanswerbecausethatwouldrequireA,somereallystrongdisciplineandrulesaroundvideogamingengagementtowhichparentslisteningtothismaygetsomeveryseriousblow-backfromtheirkidsofrestrictingvideogames.Theotherthingisthatitmayrequiresomerealpersonalintrospectiononthepartofthefamilytosee,"Areweactuallyengagingenoughasafamilyorarewealljustlivingourindividuallivesunderthesocialconstructofbeingcalledafamily?Iseveryonedoingtheirownthingorareweactuallycomingtogetherregularly,whetherit'sforaneveningdinnerorweekendoutings,"orwhateveritis?Andthen,that'saquestionoflookingat,"AmI,asaparentorasafamilymemberorasafriend,reallycarvingouttimetodothingswiththisotherpersoninameaningfulway?"Andalotoftimesthat'salsovery


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challengingbecausealotofparentsworkjobsorbothparentsworkjobsoronefamilyparentisabsenteithertotallyorpartially,justasmyfatherwas.Ionlysawmyfathereveryotherweekend.Andmostofthatwasbasedaroundvideogames.Anditrequires,youknow...MyfatherandIhavediscussedthis.Like,headmitshedroppedtheballonnotengagingwithmeenough,insteadjustkindaputtingmeinfrontofthevideogames.Soit'snotaveryeasyanswer,particularlywhenkidsourageandadultsouragearebecomingmoreandmoredigitized.Andforsomepeople,itmaynotevenbevideogames.Itmayjustbesocialmedia.Andtheythink,"Oh,well,I'mbeingsocial.I'monsocialmedia.I'mnotplayingvideogames,"butthey'restillengaginginascreenwithsomethingdigitalasopposedtoanotherhumanbeinginfrontofthem.Sothatquestionofconnectionisreallycomplicatedandcanbe,frankly,reallyuncomfortableforpeopletoaddressbecauseitrequiressomeprettyfirmintrospection.SoIthinkthat'salonger,moredifficultconversationinsomeways.Katie:Yeah,Ithinkyou'resoright.Howmanytimesinlifeisthebestthingperhapsnottheeasiestthingorrequiresalotofworkonourpart,butIseethathavingadigitalbusinessmyself,butIseethatwe'resoconnectedsortofdigitally,butwearealsoincreasinglylessconnectedwithactualpeople.Andthatdoestakesomemorework.Andittakestime.Andthereisnoappforthat.Youhavetojustputintheworkandputinthetime.Andforus,that'smeantcreatingafamilyculturethat,hopefully,ourkidswanttocontinuetobeapartof,thatwedothingsadventurousorwedothingsthatpreventboredomtogether.Andwe'llsee.Wedon'thaveanyteenagersyet.SoI'lldefinitelykeepeverybodypostedastheygrowolder.AndIhopethisisnotopeningacanofworms,butIreallywanttogetyourtakeonthis.AndIgotsomereaderquestionsaboutthistoo,whichisdoyouseeanyconnectionwithgamingorgamingdisorderandleadingtootherriskybehaviorsbecauseyoualwayshearthatargumentmadeof,like,especiallyfirst-personshootergamesandleadingtoviolentbehaviororisthereevenaconnectionbetweenjustthatobsessivebehaviorandengulfingsomuchinoneactivityandotherriskybehaviorslikeadrugaddictionoryoumentionedasugaraddiction?Whatdoyouthinkofthatconnection?Andisitsomethingtoworryabout?Dr.Shay:Oh,okay.Sothatisacanofworms,butI'mquitecomfortablewithopeningcansofworms.Sotome,therearedirectactivitiesthatareimmediatelyassociatedwithscreensthatareimmediatelyyokedorIshouldsaypotentiallyyokedtogetheratthehiporathand.Andthefirstofthatissugarandbecause...Ididn'tquiteinterviewbecausewedidn'tactuallyrecorditorwhichwedid,butIspokewithaprofessionalgamer.Shewaspartofachampionshipgamerforashootinggame.TheywerecalledtheFragDolls,whichisaverycleverpunonanameofagroupoffemalegamers,butshesaidthegamingprofessionbecamewaylessfunassoonasAdderallenteredtheprofessionalgamingworld.Sothere'sactuallyadopingissueinthegamingworldfromprofessionals.Connectedtothatisthere'sanimmediateconnectiontosugarbecauseyou'reusingsugartogetquickenergytokeepgamingandbeexcited.Andyoudon'thavetodealwiththe"inconvenienceofcooking",whichisapropos,especiallyifyou're...Isendmypatientstoyourwebsiteallofthetimetotherecipesection.Like,Isay,"Ifyouwantrecipesthataretimetestedandfieldtested,gotowellnessmama.comandgototherecipesection.So,youknow,foryourlistenersobviouslywhoknow...Imean,Iplugyourwebsiteallthetimetomypatientsbecauseoftherecipes.Andit'sabitironicthatI'mtalkingaboutvideogameaddictionbecausethelastthingahardcoregamerwantstodoiscook,becauseittakesawaytimefromgaming.Sotheyreachforsugar,candies,cereals,anythinginawrapper,theseGod-awfulenergydrinks.Sothereisthat.It'snotnecessarilythattheyare"addicted"tosugar,buttheyareyoked.Anditbecomesitsownproblem.


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Theotherthingthatisrelatedcanbeaquickjumpintopornography,particularlybecauseofsomeofthewaysthatfemalecharactersinparticulararedepictedinvideogames.Therecanbeanarousalresponsetoandfetishizationofsomeofthecharacters.Infact,it'squiteovertincertaingameslikeSoulcaliburwheretheyintentionallymakeincrediblysuggestivefemalecharactersaspartoftheirmarketing.Andit'snotthathardnowadayswithhigh-speedinternettolookatsomethingonlineandthenquietlyswitchtoaprivatebrowsertolookatpornographyveryquickly.Andsoit'snotanimmediateandguaranteedassociation.Iwanttomakethatveryclear,butthepotentialbecauseit'sliterallywithinreachfromaclickawaymakesitaloteasiertoyokethosetwoactivities.Inregardstoviolenceintherealworldwhenwe'retalkingaboutvideogameviolenceinthedigitalworld,Ithinkstatisticallythere'snotreallyaconnectiontobemadebecauseifyoulookatthepopularityofFortnite,andwe'retalkingacompanythatmadealmost$240million,like,lastmonthorthemonthbefore,andyou'retalkingaboutthemostpopulargameslikeLeagueofLegends.It'saviolent-basedgame.You'vegottournamentswithInjusticeLeagueandevenwithunrealtournaments,there'sshootersandalltherestofit.Statistically,youdon'thavehundredsofmillionsofchildrenrunningoutintothestreetandshootingpeople.It'sjustnotstatisticallybearout.Itjustdoesn't.Andwhenyoulookatthepeople,thekids,whodobecomeshooters,andthere'smanypeoplewhohavewrittenonthisandhavepublishedonthis,there'ssomanyotherfactorsgoingon,likethissocialisolationthattheyfeeloutsidethedigitalworld,whichisonereasonthey'regoingintothedigitalworld.Icertainlyfeltthepressureofthesocialisolationandtheurgetoplay.There'ssocialisolation.There'srejectionbywhetherit'sfamiliesortheoppositesexorthegenderyou'reattractedtoorwhoever.Thereisthatrejection.Andyou'refeelinglike,"Oh,God."Thenitbecomes,like,thisannihilism.Andthenthere'stheunspokenissueofpharmaceuticalsthatareinIthinknearly100%ofschoolshootingsthatnoonewantstotalkabout,theseSSRIswherethey'reeitherjustgotonthemorrapidlychangedtheirdoseorrapidlycameoffofit,whichaffectedtheirimpulsecontrolmechanismsandtheirmood.AndIamjuststunnedbythelackofhonestdiscourseaboutthatinfluenceonpeoplewhochoosetoengageinshootingviolence.Andyou'vegotalloftheseotherfactorsthatplay.Andtoblamevideogames...Andlook,I'mnotsupportingthatyes,weshouldhaveasbloodyaspossibleavideogameandit'sallfun.I'mnotsayingthat.It'sjust,buttoblamevideogamesisIthinkreallysimplisticthinkingandnotwillingtolookatrealissueslikethelackofconnectedness,goingbacktowhatyousaidbeforeandtothenihilisticviolence.Infact,Sebastian...Ifpeoplereallywanttoreadaboutthisnatureoflonewolfviolence,please,please,pleasereadSebastianJunger'sbookontribe.It'scalled"Tribe."Hetalksaboutschoolshootingsindepthfromanthropologicalperspectiveandhowwhenyouhaveamemberofthetribewhoisisolatedandseparatedandfeelsunconnectedanddisconnected,theywillactoutinanihilisticdestructivewayagainsteverybodybecausetheyfeelsodisconnected.Andthishappenedwellbeforeschoolshootings,youknow,thistypeofbehavior.It'sjustonamuchsmallerscale.Andtheshooting,youknow,theweapons,peoplehaveaccesstonowmakesthescalemuchriskier,butthistypeofbehaviorofnihilisticviolenceagainstyourowntribepre-datedvideogamesandpre-datedguns.SoIthinktheconversation'swaymorenuancedandwaymorecomplicatedthansimplyblamingvideogames.Andthisiscomingfromsomeonewhohada25-yearaddictiontovideogamesandviolentvideogames,Ishouldadd.Katie:I'msogladthatyouputitthatwayandbroughtthatupbecauseIthinkyou'reright.Ithinkwehavean


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unspokenmassivementalhealthcrisisthat...Andmytakeisoneofthemanyfactorsthatcontributesisthatlackofconnectionandthelackoftruecommunity.Weusedtogrowupclosetofamilyinneighborhoodssurroundedbypeoplewhoknewusandotherpeoplewecouldtrustbesidesourimmediatefamily.Andtosomedegree,we'velargelylostthat.Andforourfamily,werecentlymadeamoveseveralstatesawaytoaplacewheretherewasmorecommunity.AndwehavethosetypesofconnectionsbecauseItrulybelievethatit'ssoimportant,especiallyforkids.Andaswehavekidsinourfamilyabouttoreachtheteenageyears,thatwasapriorityforus,butasIhearyoutalkaboutthis...AndI'msogladtohearthathopefullythere'snotreallyacorrelationdirectlytoreallysevereriskybehaviorsandthingsassevereasschoolshootings,butasyou'rejusttalkingaboutotherthings,I'mlike,"Thoseareriskybehaviorstoo.Like,thelackofsleepweknowfromahealthperspectivehowmuchlackofsleepcanchangeyourbrain,especiallyifyouareadolescentorgoingthroughpubertyandalsojustthescreentimebecauseI'vedonealotofresearchoneyehealthandbrainhealth.Andlookingataglowingtwo-dimensionalobjectforsomanyhoursthat'sthesamedistanceaway,youactually...youreyesaren'tengaging.They'renotusingallthemusclesthatthey'resupposedto.Andyoucanendupwithvisionproblems.AndIthinkalsotoothatyoutouchedonare...especiallythatsocialisolationandthelackofmovement.Thosearebigproblems.Weknowthatstatistically,especiallyforourchildren.They'renotmovingenough.They'renotconnectingenough.They'renotgettingenoughVitaminDbecausethey'reinsidesomuch.Sohearingyoutalkaboutthis.Iamsogladit'snotconnectedtotheimmediateriskybehaviors,butIalsohearsomanysmallriskybehaviorsinthere.Andasamom,mygutreactionistogo,"Well,Idon'tseeanybenefitstovideogames."AndImadeawholelaundrylistofpotentialproblems.Andsotome,theeasywayis,"Well,let'sjustavoidvideogames,"butatthesametime,havingabackgroundinnutrition,Iknowthatwhenyoucompletelyblocksomethingoutandmakeitblackandwhite,itcanmakeitmoreappealingtokidsormoreofapullwhenthey'reolder.SoI'dlovetohearyourtakeonhowyouaddressthatandespeciallyisthereanywaytohavehealthymoderation?Ihadonereadersay,"Pleaseaskhimhowtoapproachgaminginamoderateway,"becauseherpointisthatshewantsherkidstobeculturallyliterate.Andpartofthatisgamingintoday'sworld,buthowtoencouragemoderationwhenthatdesiretobeengulfedinthegameissostrong.SoI'dlovetohearyourtakeonthat.Dr.Shay:Sure.Sothere'sacouplethingsyoubroughtuptounpack.Sointermsoftheriskybehavior,somanyoftheargumentsthatthose5,000minusthreewomengavemeattheexpowas,"Well,atleastthey'renotdoingdrugs,riskysex,organg-relatedbehaviororothercriminalmischiefbecausethey'replayingvideogames."Sovideogamesareusedbyparentsasalegitimatelesserevil.AndwhenIsaylegitimate,Iactuallydoseetheirpointbecausetheotherriskybehaviorsdohaveamuchhigherrisktothem.Idon'tthinkit'srisk-free,aswehavebeentalkingabout.Andthedegradationofsleep,ofnutrition,ofposture,ofmovement,ofsocialization,thoseareslow-boilrisksthataccumulateovertime,nottheimmediatekindofcatharticcatastrophicrisksthatareassociatedwiththoseotherbehaviors.AndIthinkyourpointofculturalliteracyisverywell-takenandextremelyrelevant.Andit'slikemovies.Like,whatmoviesusedtobeortelevisionshowsusedtobe,nowvideogamesaretakingculturaldominanceasarequirementfor,youknow,basicconversationandparticularlyamongstthegenerations,youknow,35andyoungerwhogrewuponvideogames.Katie,wasthereanotherquestionintherethatI'mmissingasidefromhowtodomoderategaming?DidImisssomething?Isthereanotherquestioninthereoristhatthemainone?


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Katie:That'sthemainone.Isthereawaytodoitmoderately?Anddoyouseetherebeanydownsides?Especially,likeformykids,theydon'treallyhaveaninterestingaming.We'rejustavoidingitalltogether,atleastuntilit'ssomethingthattheyareeveninterestedin.Like,isthereaminimumdosethattheyneedtohittheculturalliteracyorcantheyjustavoidit?Dr.Shay:Okay.Whatismoderate?Okay.Sotheconceptofmoderationiskindofafarcebecause,well,everythinginmoderation,doesthatincludemoderation,like,becausemoderation,it'sacompletefarcebecausethereisnowaytocomparehowweliveourlifenowtohowweusedtoastribalsocialhumanbeingsback,youknow,severalthousandsandtensofthousandsandhundredsofthousandsofyearsago.Imean,whatisamoderateamountofcellphoneuseforahunter-gatherer?Thequestionisabsurd.Soit's,like,wehavetotakemoderationcomparedtowhat?Moderationcomparedto10yearsago,to20yearsago,to50yearsago,to50,000yearsago?Sopeople'sdefinitionofmoderationisamovingtarget.Sooncepeoplecanyolkontocomparingmoderationtowhat,thentheconversationcanstart.AndIdon'tactuallyhaveagoodstartingpointbecausemoderatecomputeruseinthe'70swasbasicallyisolatedtomilitary,government,andacademicswhereascomputerusenowiseveryone'sissue.Andpriortothat,ofcourse,therewasn'treallyanycomputeruseofanyappreciableamount.Sowhatwouldbeamoderatelevelfortoday'sstandardscomparedto...Imean,thisistheproblem,comparedtothe'90swhenitwasjustdial-upwhenIwasreallyinonlinegaming?Idon'tknow.Well,let'sjust...Doyouhaveaparticularerayouwantedtocompareto?What'syourerayou'rewantingmetocomparetoformoderation?Katie:Imean,Iguessmyonlyreferencepointwouldbe...Oh,gosh.I'mgonnasoundold,like,over20yearsagonowwhenmybrotherhadtheoriginalclassicNESsystem.AndIthinkhehad,like,Marioorsomething.Andironically,that'sthesystemwestillhave.Andrightnow,itjustcollectsdustbecausethekidshavereallynointerest,butwehavenotthenewversionofthat,buttheactual30-year-oldversion.Dr.Shay:Right.Okay.SoI'dsayforculturalliteracy...Andthenitgetsintoanothersubject.Doyouallowyourkidstowatchmovies,youknow,dependingonhowyouparentandalltherestofit,butthere'smanydifferentparentingphilosophiesonthis.Imean,even...It'slikesugar.Mymother'sparentingphilosophyforgoodorillandmyexperience,itwasforillisyoucanhaveonecandybaradayandnotmore.Sothatwasherideaofmoderation.Andforme,thatwasactuallyprettydestructivebecauseIgothitwithallthesechemicalsandsugarsandartificialsweetenersandflavoringsandalltherestofit.AndthatwasnotgoodformyparticularsystemnordoIthinkit'sgoodforanyone'ssystem,butthatwasherideaofmoderation.Andinherworld,thatwasmoderation.AndsoIcanseehersideofit.Sothat'swhatwe'recomparingto,exceptit'sadigitalcandybarversusaphysicalcandybar.Somoviesandtelevisionshowsactuallyhavealotofculturalreferencestovideogames.Andinsomeways,youcangetsomewhatliteratebywatchingmoviesandtelevision.AndI'mnotsayingyoushouldnowgowatchmoviesandtelevisiontogetliterateinvideogames.It's,like,you'retradingonethingforanother.Ithinkthatthereare...Okay.SoIthinkthefastestwaytogetculturallyliterate...Andthisisdangerousterritorybecauseitcanthenleadintovicariousgaming.Sothat'scaveat,caveat,asterisk,asterisk,asterisk.YoucanactuallygoontoYouTubeandlookuphistoryofvideogames.Andthereismanydifferentchannelsthathavecreatedreallybrilliant5,10,15,20-minutesynopsesoftheentirevideogamehistory.Youcanlookup,like,historyofZeldaandunderstandthephenomenonofZeldaorits25-plus-yearorc.Youcanlookupthehistoryofvideogames,thehistoryofonlinegaming,historyofEverQuest,historyofShooters,historyofMortal


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Combat.Imean,there'scertainkeygamesthatwererealgenre-setters,SuperMario,Zelda,FinalFantasy,GodofWar,LeagueofLegends,Fortnite.MortalCombat,ofcourse,wasamassivecultural...TheyevenhadhearingsonCongressoverit.Counter-Strike.Doomwasamassiveone.Andit'skindoforiginator,yetsomehowlessfamous,calledWolfenstein.Youcanlookup,like,historyofgaming.There'seven,like,charts.There'sawonderful...Iwanttosaywonderful,like,well-donehistoryofgamingchartsdonebytheElectronicArtsAssociationorothervideogamewebsites.There's,like,timelines.Andifyoujustspend,youknow,anhourreadingoverthosechartsandspendanotherthreehoursgoingoverYouTubeandthehistoryofvideogames,you'regonnagetaveryefficient,veryeffectiveculturaleducationwithoutalotofinvestment.Now,therisk,therealrisk,isthatitcangetpeoplereallyinterestedinthosegames.Soit'satrade-off.Doyoucreateculturalliteracyattheriskofgettingtheminterested?Andthat'ssomething,asparents,youneedtoplayoffof.Sothereareveryefficientwaystogetliterate,butthereissomerisktothat.Intermsofmoderation,IgobacktothosethreesignsthatImentionedbefore.Ifyourchildgameslongerthantheysleeponanygivenday,thatistoomuch,byeverysingle...Nomatterhowyousliceit,thatisthesinglemostrock-solidsignofexcessthatIcanthinkof.Never,ever,evershouldtheamountoftimegamingexceedtheamountoftimesleeping.Ithinkthat'sanironlawinmypersonalbook.Thenyou'relookingatbingegamingisaretheygamingmorethanfourhoursstraight?Ithinkifaparentisconcernedaboutmoderation,youshouldhave...keepthatinmindastoabsolutelyavoidoverfourhoursofgaminginoneperiod.Andyoushouldabsolutelyavoid,ifyou'reconcernedaboutmoderation,neverlettingyourchild'sgamebeyond14hoursaweekatmeetingmymade-updefinitionofheavygaming.Now,ifyouthinkabout14hours,that'sbetweenapart-timeandaquarter-timejobintermsoftime.Sosomepeoplemoderatebasedoffofisitaschoolnight?Isitaweekend,thetimeofday,howmanyhours?Andit'salsowhat'syourdefinitionofavideogame?Doyouincludesocialmediaasvideogaming?Sothisis,again,thelineisamovingtarget.Icategorizevideogamesasactivescreenactivity.Socialmediaasmixed.Itcouldbepassiveoractive.Soasaparent,youhavetodecideareyoucountingsocialmediaaspartofthevideogamehoursornotorareyoudoingsomethinglikeIsuggestedinmySurvivalGuideforWeekendsandHolidays?Areyougivingmoretimebasedonthedegreeofsocialtimeandphysicalproximitytothepersonyou'resocializing?AretheyjustoveratthecomputeroraretheysittingonthecouchnexttoyougamingoronFacebookorwhatever?SoIthinkeachparenthastomaketheirowndecisions,butifyouusethosemetricsasguideposts,fourhoursstraightforbingegaming,theover14hoursaweekasheavygaming,andtheneversleepinglessthanthehoursyougame,andthenjustcalibratefromthere,Ithinkthat'saverylogicalplatformtostart.Katie:Allsuchgoodpoints.AndI'llofferjustfrommypersonaltakeonitsomeadviceorsomeconsiderations.Andonethatwe'vetouchedon,butIwanttospecificallymention,isweknowbasedontheresearchthatchildren'sbrainsaredifferentthanadultbrains.They'restilldeveloping.There'salotofneuroplasticitythere.SoIthinkwedohavetobecarefulofwhattheyareexposedtoandatwhatage.Andnoneofuswouldarguethat,forinstance,childrenshouldbeexposedtopornorthattheyhavetobeexposedtofastfoodtobeculturallyliterate,eventhoughunfortunatelythosethingsareverypervasiveinsociety,butIwouldsayatthesametime,wedohavetoeducatethemaboutthosethingsandabouttheriskofthosethings.Soperhapsthat'sanimportantthingistohavethosegrown-upconversationswithyourkids,especiallyif


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they'reintothesemoreaddictivetypeofgames,isjustlettingthemunderstandthattherearerisksandalsotellingthemtowatchforthesesignstooinsteadofjustputtingitinourcourt.

ThispodcastisbroughttoyoubyKettleandFire.Youmayalreadyknow,thatthisismygo-tobonebrothbecauseitisshelfstable,it’seasytouseandit’sdelicious.ButyoumaynotknowthatKettleandFirejustreleasedbrandnewbone-brothbasedsoups,whichmakeitevenmoreconvenienttoeathealthyonthegoplustheysavealotoftimewhenyou’retryingtofeedthewholefamilyonabusynightandtheyaredelicious.Theyhavemiso,tomatoandbutternutandtheyareallreally,reallygood.Plus,theyhavea20-hourslowsimmerprocessfortheirbroththatextractsinsaneamountsofprotein,10gperserving.Andthiscreatesacollagen-richbroththatisgreatforhair,skin,andnails.MyfavoritepartisthatitonlytakesaminutetoheatupanyofthesebrothsorsoupsonthestoveandIcankeepacaseinmypantrysoit’sthereanytimeIneedit.Rightnow,youcansave10%bygoingtokettleandfire.com/mamaandthediscountisalreadybuiltin.Sojustrememberthatlink-kettleandfire.com/mama

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Katie:AndIalsowonderiftherearethingslike,youknow,notlettingkidsdovideogamestooyoungoratleastuntiltheyhaveestablishedaloveofreadingandhavingotherhobbiesandreallystrongconnectionsintheiractuallife.Somaybetheyaren'taslikelytobesuckedintothevideogameworldforconnection,butalsowetalkedsomuchaboutwhattolookfor,whichisawesome.I'dloveifyoucouldalsotalksomeaboutwhattodoforanyonelisteningwhohasmaybeateenager,butmaybeahusbandorevenawifeoraparent,whotheyseethesesignsofvideogamingaddictionin.Whatcanwedotohelpsomeone,oncethey'vealreadygonedownthatroad?Dr.Shay:Okay.Sothisisanabsoluteminefieldbecausenowifyou'retalkingaboutanaddictionwherethebehavioriscompulsiveanddestructive.Infact,there'sabookIhighlyrecommendcalled,"It'sNotOkaytobeaCannibal."Andit'swrittenbytwointerventionists.AndI'mjust...I'mblankingontheauthors'names,byAndrewWainwrightandRobertPoznanovich.Andtheyreplacedthewordaddictwiththetermcannibal,meaningthatthecannibaleatsthemselvesaliveandeverythingaroundthem.Andthat'sasignofsomeonewho'sreallyaddictedwherethey'redestructivetonotonlythemselvesandtothosearoundthem.Andtheproblemis,isthatthereisadistinctionbetweensomeonewhoneedshelpandsomeonewhowantshelp,verydifferent,very,verydifferentsituations.Soifsomeoneneedshelpbutdoesn'twantthehelp,that'saproblem.Andthat'swhereinterventioncomesin,like,forciblyconfrontingapersonabouttheirbehaviortowhichthereisaveryhighriskofblow-back,whichislikethosethreemothersthatcametomeinthatexposayingthatthey'reafraidofretributiononthepartoftheiradultsonsforbeingconfrontedaboutvideogameuse.Andthat'sreal.That'sarealrisk.


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Now,withvideogames,soit'sdifferentifit'saparent-childsituationbecauseasaparent,youhavelegalauthoritytointervene,whethertheylikeitornot.Like,soifyourchildisunderage,you,asaparent,cantakeitaway.Andtheycankickandscreamandcryandsabotageanddowhatevertheywant,butthat'snotillegalforyoutophysicallyinterveneontheirworldbecauseyouhavealegalrightasaparent.Itgetsalottrickier,ifyouaredealingwithanadultandyoudon'thavetherighttogoinandtaketheirpersonalpropertyawayfromthemfortheirowngood.Sothere'scomplexitiesbasedontheageofthepersonwhohastheproblemandtheirsituation.Ifsomeonehasaproblem,oneofthethingsI'drecommendisnumberone,youyourselfgetreallyeducatedonthesubjectmattersoyoucancomeatitfromareallyknowledgeableplace,not,"Oh,Ithinkyou'replayingtoomanyvideogames.Therefore,youhavetostop.Andyou'reruiningyourlife,"andallthis.It's,like,there'salevelofnuanceinthebackofyourmindtounderstandallthecomplexitiesthatgointosomeone'sdecisiontoplayalotofgames.Iwriteaboutthisinmye-bookandtalkaboutitonmyYouTubechannelandmyarticles.Like,Ireallytrytospellitoutforpeoplewhoarenotfamiliarwiththevideogameworldwhatit'sactuallylikeandwhataretheissuesathand?Andthat'swhyIwrotemye-bookandmadetheaudiosandmadethevideosandsoontoeducatepeopleonthisbecauseit'sveryconfrontinganduncomfortableand,frankly,reallyunpleasantlikeitwasformewhenmysisterconfrontedmeandmyparentsconfrontedmeonit.Andtheycameatitfromaveryaccusatory,angry,self-righteous,andblamingway,whichIabsolutelypushedbackonandgavethemthesilenttreatmentandwasreallyrudeandnastytothembecauseIfeltlikeIwasbeingattackedfortheverythingthatIwasseeking...thatIusedtoseeksolacefromtheanxietyathomeandthestressandbullyingatschool.Like,theyweretakingawaythethingthatwasmypersonalbalmtomyconsciousness.SoIwouldrecommendpeoplegeteducatedasmuchastheycanfirst.AndI'vedevelopedahugenumberofresourcestohelppeopleinthatregard.Theotherthingistopossiblyfindadiplomaticwaytosharethoseresourceswiththepeoplewhoareconcerned.Ifsomeonewantshelp,that'sprettyeasy.Like,yeah,shamelessself-promotion.Whydon'tyougetacopyofDr.Shay'se-book?Whydon'tyougoontohiswebsiteandreadhisblogsorwatchhisvideosorgotoYouTubeandwatchhisvideosonvideogameaddiction?Listentotheinterviewsoreventhisinterview.Iftheywanthelp,it'sverystraight-forwardto...Youdon'thavetobetheexpert.Youcandirectthemtotheexpert,whetherit'sthisinterviewormymaterialorsomeoneelse's.Sothere'sthatway.Iftheyneedhelpbutdon'twanthelp,thatgetstricky.Ihavedoneinterventionsbeforewithparentsandteenagers.AndbecauseIknowwhatvideogameaddictionisbecauseofmy25-yearhistory,andIalsounderstandthegenresofthegamespeopleareplayingandIknowwhenagamerislyingtomeabouttheirusebecauseIcanreaditandIcantellwhen,youknow,they'relyingabouttheirusage,like,Iknowthequestionstoaskandknowhowtoconfrontthemonit,notfromapowerovertypeofway.It'slike,"Asafellowgamer,like,comeon.Really?Like,let'stalkaboutthisforreal,"like,andbeabletoengagetheminawaythatgetsthemtothinkaboutallthesedifferentthings.Like,oneexampleisIwalkthroughall12ofthosesignswithoutsayingthatthereweresignsofgamingdisorder.Ijustask,"Areyoupreoccupiedwithgaming?Doyouever,like,thinkaboutgamingwhenyou'reeating,like,atmeals?Doyouevermissdinnersovergaming?Doyouever..."Like,Ijustwalkthroughallofthe12signs.Andbytheendofit,Isay,"Well,doyourealizeyou'veansweredyesto10ofthepast12questions?"


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AndIsay,"DoyouknowwhatIwasactuallyaskingyou?"They'relike,"No."Thisistheactualtone.Theygo,"No,Idon'tknow."AndIsaid,"Well,thesewerethe12signsofgamingdisorder.Andyouanswered10outof12ofthemasyes.Sowouldyounowagreethatyoumighthaveanissuewithvideogames?"Andhewentsilent.Andthenhesaid,"Well,yeah,maybe."Like,itwasthefirsttimeheactuallyadmitted,albeitreluctantly,thattheremightbeaproblem.Andthisiswhatinterventionlookslike.It'saskillfulwayofengagingwithsomeonewhoneedsthehelp,butdoesn'twantitfromsomeonewho'shadtheexperience.Andthat'sdifficult.It'snoteasy.Andit'snotguaranteedtowork,but,youknow,you'redealingwiththenatureofaddiction.Andit'shard.It'sveryhard.AndIdon'tenvyanyonewhohasatrueaddictintheirfamily.Iwasanaddict.AndIdon'tenvywhatmyparentsandtherestofmyfamilywentthrough.Katie:Yeah.Thatmakessense.AnddefinitelyIthinkyou'reright,thatyouhavetoaddressitinacompassionateandlovingwayandshareyourconcernandhopethattheywanthelpbecausethatseemslikeaverydifficultsituation,iftheydon'tcertainly.SoIwanttoheararandomquestion.AndthenIhaveafollow-upquestionforyoutomakesureeveryonecanfindyourwork,butIlovetoaskpeopleifthere'sabookthat'shadatremendousinfluenceontheirlifethattheywouldrecommend.AndIknowyou'vealreadysharedafewbooksthatyouwouldrecommendrelatedtothistopic,butisthereabookperhapsnotrelatedtothisthat'shadabiginfluenceonyourlife?Dr.Shay:Yeah.Imean,thefirstbookthatreallyputmeonthetrajectorytowardsbeingfocusedonnaturalhealthcare,Imean,becauseIthoughtIwasgoingtobeadoctoratagesix.Like,IknewIwasgoingtobeadoctor.Bothmyparentsaredoctors.Mygrandfatherwasaveryfamousdoctor.AndIknewIwasgoingtobeadoctorsinceayoungchild.Ididn'trealizeIwasgoingtogointonaturalmedicineuntilIwasateenagerwhenIreadabookbyDr.BernardJensen,who'skindofthegrandfatherofnaturopathyintheWest,hisbook,"Dr.Jensen'sGuidetoBetterBowelcare."Now,IreadthisbecauseIhadterribledigestiveproblemsforover10years.AndwhenIreadthis,itopenedmyeyestothefirstmodelofholistichealthusingdigestionandbowelcareaskindofthefocusingpointtothenincorporatealloftheseotheraspectsofholistichealth,whetheritbemovement,exercise,diet,sleep,youknow,socialization,stressreduction,butusingthegutasthefocalpointfordiscussion,butengaginginalloftheotheraspectsofnaturalhealthcare.Sothatwasthebookthatlaunchedmyentirejourneyintonaturalmedicine.Isitrelatedtovideogames?Notdirectly,butitcertainlywasthebiggestinfluenceonmylife.Katie:Awesome.Andlastly,Ifeellikewecouldstilltalkaboutthistopicfor,youknow,hoursandsharesuchamazinginformation,butforanyonelisteningwhothishasbeenanimportantstartingpointforthem,wherecantheyfindyouandtheresourcesthatyoumentioned?And,ofcourse,I'llhavelinksintheshownotesatwellnessmama.fm,buthowcantheyfindoutmoreaboutyouandaboutthistopic?Dr.Shay:Sure.Mywebsiteisdrsamshay.com,drsamshay.com.Andyoucangotojustthemainwebsite.Andyou'llseemyvideogame,e-book,my"UnplugfromGamingDisorder"e-bookrightthere,frontrowandcenter.Ifpeoplebuythee-book,Ialsothrowinanaudioversionandavideowalk-throughversion,aswell.AndI'vealsogotdrsamshay.com/gamingdisorder,whichisthecollectionofmywritingsongamingdisorder,otherinterviewsfromourcolleaguesinthenaturalhealthspaceongamingdisorder.Ialsohaveatwo-minutetrailer,whichexplainsmyhistoryinjusttwominutesinahigh-def...it'sjustatraileroflike,"Thisismyjourneywithgamingdisorder."


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Andyoucanfindtheresourcesthere.It'sdrsamshay.com/gamingdisorder.Ialsohaveanonlinecourse,whichiscalledflourishoutofaddiction.com.Andit'sjustalloneword,flourishoutofaddiction.com.Youcanfindthatlinktothatonmywebsite,aswell.AndthatwasacourseIdesignedtogothroughamodernway,anewparadigm,totreataddictionswiththeparticularfocus...Theexample'swoventhroughtheentirecourseonsugarandvideogamesorsubsetsoffoodaddictionandscreenaddition.Now,thestructureandframeworkthatIteachtherenotonlyworksforsugarandvideogames,butforfoodandtechandotheraddictions,aswell,butIusesugarandvideogames.ThosewerethetwoonesthatIwentthrough.It'salsotwothatpeoplecanrelateto,ifthey...Becausemostpeoplecanrelatetofoodaddictionandsomeformofscreenaddiction,whetherit'sforthemselvesorwatchingsomeoneelse.Sothere'salotofresourcesthatareavailable.AndI'malsoavailable.Ifpeoplewanttochatwithme,there'salinktoscheduleachatwithme,aswell.AndI'dbeveryhappytohelppeopleinwhatevercapacitythatIcan.Katie:Wonderful.Andagain,allofthoselinkswillbeintheshownotesatwellnessmama.fm.Soifyouarejoggingordriving,don'tworryaboutwritingthemdown,butDr.Shay,Ifeellikethiswasveryeducationalforme.It'sawholeworldIreallydidn'tunderstand.AndIthinkyou'redoingsuchimportantwork.Thisistrulyanareaourgrandparentsneverhadtoface.Thisisanewconcernforalotofpeople.Andyou'redoingsuchanamazingjobofeducatingaboutit.AndIreallyappreciateyourtimeandyourworkandeverythingyou'vesharedtoday.Dr.Shay:Thankyou,Katie.AndIreallygenuinelyappreciateyourwork.Yourwebsitehasbeenso,soincrediblyhelpfulformypracticedirectingpeopleto,ataminimum,justtherecipesection.Andtheamountofworkthathassparedmeinexpertisetotryandcomeupwithrecipeshassavedmehoursandhoursandhoursoflaborandstress.Andsotoo,I'mmorethanhappytoreciprocatebyofferingmyexpertiseinthisparticulararena.Andjust,youknow,whatIloveaboutthiscommunityofusnaturalhealthcarepractitionersisthatwe'resynergisticallysupportingoneanotherandtohelpeveryonewhohasaneedinthenaturalhealthspace.AndsoIthankyouforprovidingsuchanamazingplatformbecauseIknowIuseitregularlywithmypractice.Sothankyou.Katie:Oh,thankyousomuch.Andthankstoallofyouforlistening.AndIhopetoseeyouagainontheWellnessMamaPodcast.

Ifyou'reenjoyingtheseinterviews,wouldyoupleasetaketwominutestoleavearatingorreviewoniTunesforme?Doingthishelpsmorepeopletofindthepodcast,whichmeansevenmoremomsandfamiliescouldbenefitfromtheinformation.Ireallyappreciateyourtime,andthanksasalwaysforlistening.

191- Understanding How Gaming Disorder & Gaming Addiction ... · walked his own journey to overcome...

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Transcript of 191- Understanding How Gaming Disorder & Gaming Addiction ... · walked his own journey to overcome...