WELCOME HI GOOD MORNING GOOD MORNING GOOD MORNING GOOD MORNING.
€¦ · 07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188 Page 2 of 151 PROCEEDINGS RESUME ON 7 NOVEMBER 2019...
Transcript of €¦ · 07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188 Page 2 of 151 PROCEEDINGS RESUME ON 7 NOVEMBER 2019...
C O M M IS S IO N O F IN Q U IRY IN TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
B R A A M F O N T E IN , J O H A N N E S B U R G
10
0 7 N O V E M B E R 2 0 1 9
D AY 1 8 8
F IN A L
20
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P R O C E E D IN G S R E S U M E O N 7 N O V E M B E R 2 0 1 9
C H A IR P E R S O N : G o o d m o rn in g M s H o fm e y r, g o o d m o rn in g e v e ry b o d y,
g o o d m o rn in g M r M a n y i .
A D V H O F M E Y R : M o r in g C h a i r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : A re y o u re a d y ?
A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s i n d e e d w e a re .
C H A IR P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . M r M a n y i I w o u ld l i k e t o p i c k u p o n o n e
o th e r a s p e c t o f y o u r p re v io u s te s t im o n y b e fo re th e C o m m is s io n a n d
th a t r e la te s t o t h e m e e t in g th a t y o u h a d w i th M in i s te r C h a b a n e a b o u t 10
t h e t r a n s fe r t o G C IS . D o y o u re c a l l g i v i n g e v id e n c e o n th a t?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s I d o .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u a l s o c la r i f i e d i n y o u r a n s w e rs to t h e
C o m m is s io n s o m e fu r th e r d e ta i l s a b o u t t h a t m e e t in g a n d I w o u ld j u s t
l i k e t o p ro b e s o m e o f t h o s e a b i t f u r th e r. A s I u n d e rs to o d y o u r
t e s t im o n y o f l a s t t im e w a s y o u s a id y o u h a d m e t a f e w d a y s p r i o r t o t h e
t r a n s fe r t h a t – w e l l t h e C a b in e t m e e t in g o n th e 2 n d o f F e b ru a ry, i s t h a t
r i g h t?
M R M A N Y I : J a I s a id w i th in f i v e d a y s I w a s n o t s u re .
A D V H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . 20
M R M A N Y I : E x a c t l y w h e n .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u r a n s w e rs to t h e C o m m is s io n c la r i f i e d th a t i t
m ig h t h a v e b e e n th e p re c e d in g th e F r id a y o r i t m ig h t h a v e b e e n th e
p re c e d in g M o n d a y. I s t h a t c o r re c t?
M R M A N Y I : J a t h a t i s j u s t t o t r y a n d – b e c a u s e I t h in k y o u w e re
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p in n in g m e to a d a te a n d I w a s t r y in g to c o o p e ra te w i th y o u . B u t a l l I
j u s t r e m e m b e r i t w a s w i th in t h a t s p a c e .
A D V H O F M E Y R : C e r ta in l y. W e d o n o t w a n t t o p in y o u to a n y th in g M r
M a n y i s o i f y o u c a n n o t r e c a l l p le a s e i n d i c a te t h a t t o u s . Wa s – d o y o u
h a v e a n y c e r ta in t y a s t o w h e th e r i t o c c u r re d o n a w e e k e n d o r a w e e k
d a y ?
M R M A N Y I : N o , n o i t w a s d e f i n i t e l y – C h a i r i t w a s d e f i n i t e l y a w e e k
d a y.
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d a re y o u c o m fo r ta b le w i th s a y in g i t w a s e i t h e r t h e
F r i d a y p re c e d in g th e 2 n d o f F e b ru a ry o r t h e M o n d a y p re c e d in g th e 2 n d 10
o f F e b ru a ry ?
M R M A N Y I : I f i t w a s n o t t h a t F r i d a y i t w i l l d e f i n i t e l y b e – i f i t w a s n o t
t h a t F r i d a y i t c o u ld e v e n b e a T h u rs d a y fo r t h a t m a t te r.
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u .
M R M A N Y I : B u t i t w a s w i th in t h a t s p a c e .
A D V H O F M E Y R : W i th in t h a t s o r t o f s p a c e ?
M R M A N Y I : F i v e / s e v e n d a y s g i v e o r t a k e .
A D V H O F M E Y R : U n d e rs to o d .
M R M A N Y I : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d d o y o u h a v e a n y re c o l l e c t i o n o f w h e th e r t h e 20
m e e t in g to o k p la c e i n t h e m o rn in g o r t h e e v e n in g o r w h a t t im e o f t h e
d a y ?
M R M A N Y I : N o I t h in k i t w a s C h a i rp e rs o n i t w a s a ro u n d – i t w a s
a ro u n d e le v e n is h I t h in k j a .
A D V H O F M E Y R : I n t h e m o rn in g ?
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M R M A N Y I : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . A n d a s I u n d e rs ta n d y o u r t e s t im o n y l a s t
t im e M in i s te r C h a b a n e o f f e re d y o u a c h o i c e o f p o s i t i o n s , i s t h a t
c o r re c t?
M R M A N Y I : T h a t i s c o r re c t C h a i r.
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d j u s t t o b e c le a r y o u r e v id e n c e l a s t t im e w a s th e
o p t i o n w a s to b e t r a n s fe r re d to G C IS a s D G w h ic h w o u ld h a v e p u t y o u
o n th e s a m e le v e l . A l t e rn a t i v e l y t o b e C O O in t h e o f f i c e o f t h e
P re s id e n c y. I s t h a t c o r re c t?
M R M A N Y I : T h a t i s c o r re c t C h a i r. 10
A D V H O F M E Y R : N o w c a n I j u s t e n q u i re w h e n y o u m e t w i th h im d id y o u
h a v e a n y d i s c u s s io n s w i th h im a b o u t t h e c h a rg e s a g a in s t y o u w h i l e y o u
w e re a t t h e D e p a r tm e n t o f L a b o u r?
M R M A N Y I : N o C h a i r t h a t d id n o t c o m e u p .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d d id y o u d i s c u s s w i th h im th e fa c t t h a t y o u h a d
b e e n d i s m is s e d f r o m th e D e p a r tm e n t o f L a b o u r?
M R M A N Y I : I w o u ld h a v e b e e n l y i n g to h im i f I h a d s a id s o C h a i r.
B e c a u s e a t t h e t im e – l i k e I s a id h e re I a m n o t g o in g to c h a n g e m y
te s t im o n y. I h a v e s a id h e re re p e a te d l y t h a t I w a s n e v e r d i s m is s e d a n d
I n o te C h a i r a l o t o f u s e o f t h i s w o rd i n t h i s c o r re s p o n d e n c e 20
e v e ry w h e re , t h i s d i s m is s a l . B u t – a n d i n m a n y i n s ta n c e s I t h in k i t i s
u s e d c o l l o q u ia l l y.
A n d I h a v e s a id h e re y e s te rd a y b y th e w a y th a t w h e n M s
H o fm e y r w a s p ro b in g th e i s s u e o f D e c e m b e r f o r i n s ta n c e b e c a u s e
s u p p o s e d ly m y la s t d a y o f p a y m e n t w a s m e a n t t o b e e n d o f N o v e m b e r
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a n d th e n th e re fo re D e c e m b e r s h o u ld h a v e b e e n a d r y m o n th f o r m e
b e c a u s e I a m d i s m is s e d .
S o a s e v id e n c e th a t t h e re w a s n o s u c h I d id s a y th a t I g o t p a id
i n D e c e m b e r. I n f a c t n o t o n l y g o t p a id C h a i r I h a v e g o t m y s ta te m e n t
h e re i t l o o k s l i k e I e v e n g o t a 1 3 t h c h e q u e fo r t h a t m a t te r i n D e c e m b e r.
I h a v e g o t tw o t r a n s a c t i o n s h e re i n D e c e m b e r. S o th e i s s u e o f m e e t in g
M in i s te r C h a b a n e in J a n u a ry h a v in g j u s t c o m e b a c k f r o m tw o p a y m e n ts
h o w c a n I c o n s id e r m y s e l f d i s m is s e d ? I t i s j u s t i r r a t i o n a l .
C H A IR P E R S O N : I n r e g a rd to w h a te v e r d o c u m e n ta t i o n y o u m ig h t h a v e
th a t m ig h t s u p p o r t w h a t y o u s a y i f t h e re i s a n y th in g y o u w a n t t o h a n d 10
u p to g i v e t o t h e C o m m is s io n fe e l f r e e to d o s o .
M R M A N Y I : O k a y.
C H A IR P E R S O N : B u t i f m a y b e th e re m a y b e c o n f i d e n t i a l t h in g s i n t h e
s a m e d o c u m e n t a n d y o u w o u ld p re fe r n o t t o i t i s f i n e . I j u s t w a n te d y o u
to k n o w th a t y o u m a y g i v e u s a v ie w w is h to g i v e u s s o m e th in g .
M R M A N Y I : T h a n k y o u C h a i r I w i l l a c tu a l l y l e a v e th i s d o c u m e n t h e re .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A N Y I : W h a te v e r i s c o n f i d e n t i a l h e re w a s c o n f i d e n t i a l i n 2 0 1 2 s o
i t i s f i n e .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s . 20
M R M A N Y I : A n d a l s o C h a i r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : J a .
M R M A N Y I : I t i s j u s t t h a t h o n e s t l y h e re A d v o c a te H o fm e y r i s j u s t n o t
o p e ra t i n g i n g o o d fa i t h . I f s h e d id C h a i r o n th e – I w o u ld l i k e t o C h a i r
w i t h o u t d i s ru p t i n g y o u r f l o w o f t h o u g h t M s H o fm e y r? I f y o u g o to
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b u n d le N N 5 . I f y o u g o to b u n d le N N 5 y o u w i l l f i n d o n p a g e 1 3 4 . O n
p a g e 1 3 4 , C h a i r y o u w i l l f i n d p a g e 2 o f t h e a f f i d a v i t o f t h e D G o f
L a b o u r. I f y o u g o to – h a v e y o u g o t i t C h a i r?
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s I h a v e g o t i t .
M R M A N Y I : J a i f y o u g o to p a g e 1 0 .
C H A IR P E R S O N : J a .
M R M A N Y I : T h a t r e a d fo r t h e re c o rd w h a t t h e D G o f L a b o u r i n h i s
a f f i d a v i t a n d th i s i s t h e th in g C h a i r I w a s s a y in g a b o u t n o t g e t t i n g g i v e n
d o c u m e n ts . T h i s i s s o m e th in g I d i s c o v e re d l a s t n ig h t b e c a u s e I w a s
g i v e n th i s d o c u m e n t ’s d a te b e c a u s e w e a re o p e ra t i n g h e re w i th p e o p le 10
t h a t a re t r y i n g to p u t b o o b y t r a p s a l l o v e r. T h i s i s h o w s h e i s
o p e ra t i n g . Tr y in g to b o o b y t r a p s a n d a l l o f t h i s . T h i s i s j u s t n o t
o p e ra t i n g i n g o o d fa i t h . B u t i f y o u l o o k a t p a ra g ra p h 1 0 C h a i r i t s a y s :
“B y th e D G o f L a b o u r M r T h o b i l e L a m a t i h e s a y s h e re .
F ro m th e i n fo rm a t io n b ro u g h t t o m y a t te n t i o n p e rs o n a l
a s s i s ta n t B a s s i n d i c a te s t h a t s a la r y p a y m e n ts w e re m a d e
to M r M z w a n e le M a n y i f o r N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 0 , D e c e m b e r
2 0 1 0 a n d J a n u a ry 2 0 11 . ”
H e g o e s fu r th e r C h a i r – h e a c tu a l l y p u ts a n a n n e x u re .
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m . 20
M R M A N Y I : O n p a g e 1 3 5 – 1 3 6 I b e g y o u r p a rd o n . O n p a g e 1 3 6 I d o
n o t e v e n n e e d – h a v e to g i v e y o u th i s b a n k s ta te m e n t b e c a u s e h e re o n
p a g e 1 3 6 h e g i v e s y o u a p r i n to u t .
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
M R M A N Y I : I t m u s t h a v e b e e n f r o m th e F in a n c e s y s te m .
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C H A IR P E R S O N : H m ;
M R M A N Y I : I t s h o w s h e re th e 2 0 1 0 o n th e 1 3 t h t h e re w a s a s a la r y – i f
e v e n s a y s s a la r y.
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
M R M A N Y I : S o i f – e v e n th e D G i s s a y in g s o .
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
M R M A N Y I : B u t M s H o fm e y r w a n ts t o k e e p p u s h in g h e r o w n n a r ra t i v e
o f d i s m is s a l . I t i s j u s t a b i t u p s e t .
C H A IR P E R S O N : W e l l M r M a n y i y o u m a y b e u n fa i r t o M s H o fm e y r i n
r e g a rd to w h a t y o u h a v e s a id b e c a u s e y o u re m e m b e r h e – s h e s a id 10
y e s te rd a y th a t s o m e o f t h e d o c u m e n ts h a d n o t e v e n a r r i ve d y e s te rd a y.
T h e y o n l y – t h e y h a d n o t a r r i v e d b e fo re y e s te rd a y th e y o n l y a r r i v e d
y e s te rd a y.
A n d a s I u n d e rs ta n d th e p o s i t i o n s h e to o k th e e a r l i e s t
o p p o r tu n i t y t o m a k e s u re t h a t y o u g o t c o p ie s o f w h a te v e r s h e h a d j u s t
r e c e i v e d h e rs e l f . S o w e n e e d to j u s t b e a r t h a t i n m in d a s w e l l . B u t
a l s o y o u n e e d to re m e m b e r t h a t s h e w a s th e o n e w h o e v e n b e fo re I
s a id a n y th in g w h o s a id i f t h e re a re a n y d o c u m e n ts w h e n – th a t y o u
w o u ld l i k e m o re t im e b e fo re y o u c o u ld a n s w e r q u e s t i o n s o n p le a s e y o u
s h o u ld s a y s o . 20
S o a s I u n d e rs ta n d i t s h e n e v e r i n te n d e d th a t y o u s h o u ld b e
p u s h e d to g i v e a n s w e rs t o – o n d o c u m e n ts i n r e g a rd to w h ic h y o u m ig h t
n e e d m o re t im e . T h a t i s m y u n d e rs ta n d in g o f w h a t s h e s a id y e s te rd a y.
M R M A N Y I : B u t C h a i r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
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M R M A N Y I : A n o th e r e x a m p le . F o r i n s ta n c e y e s te rd a y I m a k e a p o in t
t o h e r a b o u t t h e i s s u e o f a d i s m is s a l h e a r in g o r r a th e r a d i s c ip l i n a ry
h e a r in g w h e re I s a id t h a t 3 0 m in u te s i n to i t i t w a s a b ru p t l y s to p p e d a n d
a l l t h a t .
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
M R M A N Y I : I s a y h e re , s i t t i n g h e re I s a y I h a v e m e n t io n e d i t
s o m e w h e re a n d th e n s h e i n te r j e c t s o r r a th e r re s p o n d s a n d s h e s a y s , n o
i t i s n o t a n y w h e re i n t h e te s t im o n y a n d e v e ry th in g th a t y o u h a v e g i v e n
u s . B u t C h a i r w h e n I w e n t l a s t n ig h t a n d c h e c k e d m y th in g s .
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m . 10
M R M A N Y I : A c tu a l l y i f y o u g o to N N 2 .
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
M R M A N Y I : N N 2 p a g e 3 8 .
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
M R M A N Y I : J u s t g o to t h a t . P a g e 3 8 o n N N 2 .
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
M R M A N Y I : P a ra g ra p h 7 .4 . H a v e y o u g o t i t C h a i r? I t s a y s h e re .
C H A IR P E R S O N : I a m n o t a c tu a l l y, n o t l o o k in g I a m h o p in g to j u s t
. . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
M R M A N Y I : O k a y a l r i g h t . 20
C H A IR P E R S O N : T h a t y o u w o u ld re a d i t j a .
M R M A N Y I : I t s a y s h e re :
“A p a r t f r o m la w y e rs m e e t in g fo r d i s c o v e ry i s s u e s
e t c e te ra re m e m b e r a t t e n d in g o n l y o n e re a l D C m e e t in g
w h ic h w a s a b a n d o n e d h a rd l y 3 0 m in u te s a f te r i t h a d
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s ta r te d . ”
T h i s i s w h a t I s a id I h a d s a id . A n d s h e s a id i t d o e s n o t e x i s t
a n y w h e re . A n d th i s i s t h e d o c u m e n t t h a t w a s g i v e n to h e r l a s t w e e k a s
p a r t o f m y w r i t t e n re p l i e s . N o w th i s i s w h y I j u s t s a y h e re C h a i r th a t
s h e i s n o t o p e ra t i n g i n g o o d fa i t h . S o I . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A N Y I : I m a in ta in m y p o in t .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s . S h e w i l l i f s h e c h o o s e s to s h e w i l l s a y
s o m e th in g i n re s p o n s e . B u t l e t m e p o in t o u t t o y o u th a t I m y s e l f
y e s te rd a y o p e ra te d o n th e b a s i s t h a t f o r e x a m p le M r M a s e k o ’s e v id e n c e 10
p re v io u s l y w a s to t h e e f f e c t t h a t w h e n – o n h i s v e rs io n th e fo rm e r
P re s id e n t p h o n e d M r C h a b a n e a b o u t m o v in g M r M a s e k o th a t h e w a s
fu r i o u s . B u t i t t u rn e d o u t t h a t M r M a s e k o h a d n o t s a id t h a t . A t l e a s t
f r o m w h a t w e s a id m a y b e i t m ig h t h a v e b e e n s o m e b o d y e l s e o r h e m ig h t
h a v e s a id t h a t a b o u t s o m e b o d y e l s e o r s o . S o th e re i s a l o t o f
d o c u m e n ta t i o n . W e a re h u m a n w e c a n m a k e e r ro r s a n d s o o n . S o –
b u t I s a y M s H o fm e y r w i l l e le c t w h e th e r s h e w a n ts t o s a y s om e th in g i n
re s p o n s e . M s H o fm e y r y o u w i l l m a k e y o u r e le c t i o n o th e rw is e w e c a n
p ro c e e d .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a i r. I t i s m y h o p e th a t w e c a n j u s t m o v e 20
t o t h e fa c t s t o d a y a n d g e t M r M a n y i ’s e v id e n c e . B u t h e h a s m a d e s o m e
s e r io u s a c c u s a t i o n s a n d I w o u ld l i k e to a d d re s s th e m . I w i l l p i c k u p o n
th e l a s t o n e f i r s t . C h a i r i t i s f a l s e th a t w h a t I s a id i n t h e C o m m is s io n
y e s te rd a y w a s th a t M r M a n y i h a d n e v e r m a d e th e p o in t t h a t t h e re w a s a
d i s c ip l i n a ry h e a r in g c o n v e n e d a n d th a t i t a d jo u rn e d s h o r t l y t h e re a f te r.
07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
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I a m a s k in g m y l e a rn e d f r i e n d to t r y a n d g e t a n u rg e n t t r a n s c r i p t o f
y e s te rd a y ’s p ro c e e d in g s . B u t I c a n w i th g re a t c la r i t y r e m in d e v e ry o n e
i n t h i s r o o m p re c i s e l y w h a t I s a id .
W e w e re i n t h e c o u rs e o f d i s c u s s in g M r M a n y i ’s p re v io u s
te s t im o n y a n d w h e th e r i n t h e c o u rs e o f t h a t t e s t im o n y h e h a d le d th i s
C o m m is s io n to u n d e rs ta n d th a t h e w a s o n a p e r io d o f l e a v e p e rs i s te n t l y
f r o m th e m o m e n t h e w a s p u t o n s u s p e n s io n to t h e t im e th a t h e w a s
t r a n s fe r re d to G C IS .
H e w a s a s k e d a b o u t h i s p re v io u s te s t im o n y th a t h e w a s n o t
e v e r c h a rg e d . A n d i t w a s i n t h a t c o n te x t t h a t M r M a n y i g a v e e v id e n c e 10
y e s te rd a y th a t h e h a d s a id s o m e w h e re i n t h e p re v io u s e v id e n c e th a t
t h e re h a d b e e n a d i s c ip l i n a ry h e a r in g c o n v e n e d th a t h a d e n d e d a b ru p t l y
t h e re a f te r. M y re s p o n s e to M r M a n y i w a s tw o fo ld . H e d id n o t s a y s o i n
h i s p re v io u s te s t im o n y b e fo re th i s C o m m is s io n th a t o c c u r re d i n
N o v e m b e r o f l a s t y e a r.
I t h e n w e n t o n a n d s a id t h a t h e h a d d o n e s o – h e h a d m a d e
re fe re n c e to t h a t i n w h a t h e h a d p la c e d b e fo re th e C o m m is s io n a n d th a t
i s p re c i s e l y t h e a f f i d a v i t t o w h ic h h e h a s re fe r re d u s . C h a i r i f t h e
t r a n s c r i p t c a n b e o b ta in e d i t w i l l b e a r m e o u t . B u t m y re s p o n s e to M r
M a n y i i s t h a t t h e s u g g e s t i o n th a t t h e re i s b a d fa i t h o n m y p a r t i n s o fa r 20
a s I p u t t o h im w h a t a re c le a r l y a n d o b v io u s a n d p a te n t f a c t s t h a t t h e
p re v io u s te s t im o n y d id n o t r e fe r t o t h e d i s c ip l i n a ry h e a r in g b e in g
c o n v e n e d a n d a d jo u rn e d b u t t h a t h e h a d m a d e s u c h a d i s c lo s u re to t h e
C o m m is s io n re c e n t l y a s b e tw e e n h e a n d I i s n o w c o m m o n c a u s e .
T h e s e c o n d a s p e c t o f t h e b a d fa i t h r e la te d to t h e s a la r y
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p a y m e n ts . N o w in t h a t r e g a rd g i v e n y o u r i n v i t a t i o n t o M r M a n y i I
w a n te d to f o l l o w u p a n d s a y w e w o u ld v e ry m u c h l i k e t o s e e th o s e b a n k
re c o rd s . S o i f h e c a n p le a s e m a k e th e m a v a i l a b le t o u s a s s o o n a s
p o s s ib le w e w i l l t a k e th e te a b re a k a s t h e l e g a l t e a m to h a v e a l o o k a t
t h e m .
M r M a n y i h a s h ig h l i g h te d th e a f f i d a v i t o f t h e D G M r L a m a t i . I t
w a s m y in te n t i o n to d e a l w i t h t h e s a la r y i s s u e w i th M r M a n y i i n d u e
c o u rs e a n d d ra w y o u r – C h a i r ’s a t t e n t i o n to a s e c o n d a f f i d a v i t f r o m a
re p re s e n ta t i v e o f t h e D e p a r tm e n t o f L a b o u r w h ic h g i v e s g re a te r c la r i t y
t o t h e a f f i d a v i t o f t h e D G . 10
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : S o i f w e c o u ld b e p e rm i t t e d s im p ly t o g o to t h e
e v id e n c e C h a i r?
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : W e c a n d e a l w i t h t h o s e a s p e c ts .
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m . Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : M r M a n y i i n y o u r t e s t im o n y y e s te rd a y I w a n t t o p u t i t
t o y o u th a t y o u m a d e fo u r s ta te m e n ts t h a t a re u n t ru e . A n d I w o u ld l i k e
y o u r c o m m e n t o n th e m . T h e y re la te t o a c o m m o n th e m e . S o I a m
g o in g to l i s t t h e fo u r o f t h e m fo r y o u s o y o u h a v e a n u n d e rs ta n d in g o f 20
t h e fo u r f a l s e s ta te m e n ts t h a t y o u m a d e to t h e C o m m is s io n y e s te rd a y
a n d th e n w e c a n ta k e e a c h o f t h e m in t u rn f o r y o u r c o m m e n t .
T h e f i r s t s ta te m e n t w h ic h i s f a l s e i s t h a t y o u n e v e r re c e i v e d
th e te rm in a t i o n l e t t e r f r o m M in i s te r M d la d la n a . T h a t i s t h e l e t t e r d a te d
th e 2 9 t h o f O c to b e r 2 0 1 0 . T h e s e c o n d s ta te m e n t t h a t i s f a l s e i s t h a t t h e
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f i r s t t im e y o u s a w i t w a s o n th e 1 8 t h o f O c to b e r t h i s y e a r w h e n th e
C o m m is s io n g a v e i t t o y o u .
T h e th i r d s ta te m e n t t h a t i s f a l s e i f t h a t y o u w e re n e v e r
d i s m is s e d f r o m th e D e p a r tm e n t o f L a b o u r. A n d th e fo u r th i s t h a t y o u
re m a in e d e m p lo y e d b u t o n l e a v e f r o m th e p e r io d o f y o u r s u s p e n s io n to
t h e t im e th a t y o u w e re t r a n s fe r re d t o G C IS . I w o u ld l i k e y o u r c o m m e n t
o n e a c h o f t h o s e .
C H A IR P E R S O N : O n e s e c o n d . O n e s e c o n d . M r M a n y i y o u m a y b e
n e e d in g to re c o rd th e s ta te m e n ts o r t h a t y o u a re s u p p o s e d to c o m m e n t
o n a n d I a m w o n d e r in g w h e th e r y o u h a v e g o t a n e x a m p a d a n d 10
w h a te v e r y o u – t h a t y o u m a y n e e d to w r i t e o n .
M R M A N Y I : N o , n o I a m . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : A n d y o u h a v e g o t y o u r – y o u a re f i n e ?
M R M A N Y I : I a m f i n e C h a i r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : O k a y a l r i g h t .
M R M A N Y I : Ye s .
C H A IR P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u .
M R M A N Y I : O k a y. F i r s t l y j u s t a s a n o p e n in g s ta te m e n t . T h e re i s
n o th in g fa l s e t h a t I h a v e s a id a n d I w a n t t o t a l k t o t h e s e i s s u e s j u s t
n o w. T h a t I n e v e r r e c e i v e d th e l e t t e r. I n e v e r r e c e i v e d th e l e t t e r. T h a t 20
i s n o t f a l s e . I n t h e l e t t e r y e s te rd a y th a t M s H o f fm a n – M s H o fm e y r I
b e g y o u r p a rd o n in t h a t l e t t e r w h e re I w a s w r i t i n g t o M in i s te r B a lo y i
r e fe re n c e to t h e l e t t e r w h ic h I s a y I n e v e r r e c e i v e d i s m a d e in t h a t
l e t t e r.
N o w I t h e n l a s t n ig h t w h e n I l o o k e d a t t h i s t h in g a n d t r i e d to
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r e m e m b e r w h a t r e a l l y h a p p e n e d y o u w i l l s e e C h a i r i f y o u l o o k a t t h a t
l e t t e r y o u w i l l s e e th e fo rm u la t i o n o f t h a t l e t t e r t h a t t h a t l e t t e r w a s d o n e
u n d e r t h e l e g a l a d v i c e . T h a t l e t t e r.
S o a l o t o f i n fo rm a t io n w a s c o m in g b e tw e e n m y s e l f a n d m y
la w y e rs w h o w e re w r i t i n g th i s a n d a l l t h a t . A n d th a t i s h o w I s u s p e c t
t h a t r e fe re n c e c a m e in b u t w h e th e r m e M z w a n e le M a n y i s a w th e l e t t e r i t
i s f a c tu a l l y i n c o r re c t . I n e v e r s a w th e l e t t e r. S o th e fa c t t h a t r e fe re n c e
i s m a d e o n i t d o e s n o t m e a n I s a w th e l e t t e r. S o th a t s ta te m e n t s ta n d s .
A n d th e fa c t t h a t I s a w i t f o r t h e f i r s t t im e s ta n d s . I r e a l l y s a w i t f o r t h e
f i r s t t im e a n d a l l t h a t . 10
W h e n y o u d i s c u s s w i th t h e l a w y e rs t h e y m a k e re fe re n c e s to
v a r io u s d o c u m e n ts a n d a l l o f t h a t t o s a y o k a y th e y e v e n s o m e t im e s
q u o te c a s e l a w a n d I w o u ld n e v e r s a y to t h e m , l e t m e re a d th a t c a s e
l a w a n d s e e fo r m y s e l f a n d s o o n . S o w h e n y o u w o rk w i th l a w y e rs y o u
w o rk w i th p e o p le t h a t y o u re a l l y t r u s t . I f y o u c a n n o t t r u s t y o u r l a w y e r
t h e n I d o n o t k n o w w h a t y o u m u s t s a y – y o u m u s t d o – w h a t y o u m u s t
d o .
N o w th e – t h e n th e s ta te m e n t o f n e v e r d i s m is s . I t h in k i t i s – I
a m h a p p y th a t M s H o fm e y r h a s ra i s e d th i s m a t te r. I t h in k C h a i rp e rs o n
j u s t u n d e rs ta n d h o w P u b l i c S e rv i c e w o rk s . P e rh a p s h e r d i s a d v a n ta g e 20
i s t h a t s h e d o e s n o t u n d e rs ta n d p e rh a p s h o w P u b l i c S e rv i c e w o rk s a n d
d o e s n o t u n d e rs ta n d th e i s s u e o f S e c t i o n 1 2 o f P u b l i c S e rv i c e A c t .
B u t I c a n d o a q u i c k w o rk s h o p h e re . H o w th i s w o rk s C h a i r i s
t h a t a M in i s te r f o r a l l i n te n ts a n d p u rp o s e s i s a c tu a l l y a c a re ta k e r f o r a
D G . A M in i s te r i s n o t t h e e m p lo y e r o f a D G a t a n y t im e , n e v e r e v e r.
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E v e n a s w e s p e a k . A M in i s te r i s n o t t h e e m p lo ye r. A M in i s te r d o e s n o t
h a v e th e p o w e r t o d i s m is s a D G . S o y o u c a n w r i t e t h a t I a m d i s m is s in g
y o u . Yo u c a n d o a l l k i n d s o f t h in g s a n d p u rp o r t t o h a v e d i s m is s e d .
T h e o n l y t im e th e w o rd d i s m is s a l , t e rm in a t i o n re a l l y t a k e s
e f f e c t i s r e a l l y r e a l i t i s w h e n y o u h a v e g o t t h e c o n s e n t o f t h e P re s id e n t
o r w h e n y o u h a v e g o t t h e d e le g a te d a u th o r i t y. F o rm e r M in i s te r
M d la d la n a s h e – h e w i l l g o i n to h i s g ra v e w i th o u t h a v in g f i r e d a D G in
h i s l i f e b e c a u s e e v e n w h e n h e w a s a t t h e D e p a r tm e n t o f L a b o u r h e d id
a l l h i s a n t i c s o f d i s m is s in g m e th in k in g h e i s d i s m is s in g m e a n d a l l o f
t h a t . 10
W h e n in f a c t I t h in k i t h a s b e e n p o in te d o u t t o h im le f t r i g h t
a n d c e n t re t h a t e x c u s e m e M in i s te r M d la d la n a y o u d o n o t h a v e th e
a u th o r i t y t o d o th i s . S o C h a i rp e rs o n fo r p e o p le t o d o u n la w fu l t h in g s
w e c a n n o t c o m e to t h i s C o m m is s io n a n d g i v e c re d i t t o a n u n la w fu l
c o n d u c t .
W h a t M in i s te r M d la d la n a d id w a s u n la w fu l . I t w a s to ta l l y
u n la w fu l . H e w a s a c tu a l l y u n d e rm in in g th e P u b l i c S e rv i c e A c t . H e w a s
a l s o u n d e rm in in g th e p o w e rs o f t h e P re s id e n t . H e c a n n o t p u rp o r t t o
d i s m is s s o m e b o d y w h o i s n o t h i s e m p lo y e e . A D G i s – c a n o n l y b e
d i s m is s e d w i th t h e c o n s e n t a n d c o l l a b o ra t i o n o f t h e P re s id e n t o r t h e 20
d e le g a te d a u th o r i t y f r o m th e P re s id e n t . S o th a t w a s th e s i t u a t i o n .
S o th e i s s u e o f l a s t p o in t o f r e m a in in g a n e m p lo y e e
th ro u g h o u t . I s a id h e re y e s te rd a y I h a v e n o e v id e n c e o f h a v in g b e e n
d i s m is s e d a n d th e re a s o n I s a id s o I s a id i t i s b e c a u s e I w a s g e t t i n g
p a id a n d th i s i s w h e re th e D e c e m b e r t h in g c a m e in t o s a y h e re i s m y
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e v id e n c e fo r D e c e m b e r t h a t I g o t p a id . S o w h a t i s t h i s n o t i o n th a t I g o t
d i s m is s e d ?
T h e J a n u a ry o n e c a m e la te . S o f r o m w h e re I s i t I s e e th i s
p a p e rw o rk h e re t h a t i s p a r t o f t h i s f i l e I s a w la s t n ig h t . A l o t o f
s h e n a n ig a n s u n la w fu l a c t i v i t i e s w e re h a p p e n in g i n t h e D e p a r tm e n t . B u t
C h a i rp e rs o n l e t u s b e v e ry c le a r h e re th a t i t c a n n e v e r b e fa c tu a l l y
c o r re c t t o s a y a M in i s te r d i s m is s e d y o u . I t d o e s n o t e x i s t . I t i s a lm o s t
l i k e s a y in g o i l h a s m ix e d w i th w a te r. I t d o e s n o t h a p p e n . I t i s
im p o s s ib le . Yo u m a y l i k e i t , y o u m a y p u t o i l i n t h e w a te r i n t h e s a m e
b o t t l e a n d s h a k e i t u p i t i s n o t g o in g to h a p p e n C h a i r. T h a t i s w h a t i t 10
i s .
S o A d v o c a te H o f fm a n – H o fm e y r m u s t d i s a b u s e h e rs e l f r e a l l y
o f t h i s n o t i o n th a t a M in i s te r c a n d i s m is s . T h e re i s n o s u c h a t h in g . I n
t h i s d i s c u s s io n h e re – i n t h e s e d o c u m e n ts t h e te rm i s u s e d I s u s p e c t a t
a c o l l o q u ia l l e v e l . T h a t i s w h e re th e te rm i s u s e d . I t i s a t a c o l l o q u ia l
l e v e l t h a t i s w h a t – j u s t s o th a t y o u d o n o t h a v e a l o t o f d i s c u s s io n
a b o u t a l l o th e r l e g a l i t i e s a n d s o o n . I t i s a q u ic k te rm to g e t t o f i r e a
D G .
B u t s t r i c t l y s p e a k in g a n d s h e s h o u ld k n o w th i s b e in g a l a w y e r
b u t s t r i c t l y s p e a k in g w h e n y o u ta l k a re d e te rm in a t i o n o f t h e c o n d i t i o n s 20
o f a D G . W h e n y o u ta l k a b o u t t e rm in a t i o n o f a D G a P re s id e n t m u s t b e
i n v o l v e d . I n a l l t h e s e p ro c e s s e s o f f o rm e r M in i s te r M d la d la n a th e re
w a s n o i n v o l v e m e n t o f t h e P re s id e n t i n t e rm s o f s u p p o r t i n g h i s i l l
i n te n t i o n s .
S o th e d i s m is s a l n e v e r h a p pe n e d . T h e re w e re a l l k i n d s o f
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s h e n a n ig a n s a ro u n d i t a n d th in g s th a t l o o k l i k e i t c o u ld b e i t b u t t h i s i s
w h y a t t h e e n d a d e c i s io n w a s ta k e n to c le a n u p a l l t h e m e s s th a t w a s
h a p p e n in g u n d e r t h e g u i s e o f a d i s m is s a l w h ic h w a s s o m e th in g th a t w a s
u n la w fu l a n d w e c a n n o t s i t h e re n o w a n d s a y, s o m e th in g th a t w a s
u n la w fu l a n d s a y, i t i s f a c tu a l l y c o r re c t t h a t i t h a p p e n e d a n d s o o n w h e n
i t w a s a n u n la w fu l s h e n a n ig a n a s i t w e re .
S o C h a i r I m a in ta in m y p o in t a n d I t h in k A d v o c a te H o fm e y r i s
j u s t w ro n g .
A D V H O F M E Y R : C h a i r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s y o u m a y c o n t i n u e M s H o fm e y r. 10
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u s o m u c h . M r M a n y i i s i t y o u r e v id e n c e th a t
y o u r l a w y e rs re c e i v e d th e l e t t e r f r o m M in i s te r M d la d la n a b u t y o u d id
n o t?
M R M A N Y I : J a C h a i r I s a id I h a v e n o t s e e n th e l e t t e r b u t i f I l o o k a t m y
l e t t e r w h ic h I d id u n d e r t h e a d v i c e o f t h e – o f m y la w y e rs m o s t
d e f i n i t e l y t h e y w o u ld h a v e re c e i v e d i t . B u t I h a v e n e v e r s e e n th e l e t t e r.
A D V H O F M E Y R : S o y o u w o u ld n o t k n o w w h a t t h e c o n te n t o f t h a t l e t t e r
w a s ?
M R M A N Y I : T h e – y o u s e e – o k a y – I w o u ld – t h e c o n te n t o f t h a t l e t t e r
w a s a b o u t C h a i r t h e p u rp o r te d te rm in a t i o n o f p ro b a t i o n . T h a t l e t t e r 20
C h a i r i f y o u l o o k a t i t ? I n f a c t w e s h o u ld g o to i t . E x c u s e m e th a t
l e t t e r. W e s h o u ld g o to t h a t l e t t e r a n d l o o k a t t h e h e a d in g o f t h a t l e t t e r.
T h e w o rd , d i s m is s a l d o e s n o t a p p e a r i n t h a t l e t t e r. T h e w o rd ,
d i s m is s a l d o e s n o t a p p e a r. S u re l y i f – a n d b y th e w a y w h e n M s
H o fm e y r re fe r s t o t h i s l e t t e r s h e l o o s e l y re fe r s t o i t a s a d i s m is s a l o r
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t e rm in a t i o n l e t t e r a n d s o o n . B u t t h e fa c t o f t h e m a t te r t h a t l e t t e r w a s
d i s c u s s in g M in i s te r s – f o rm e r M in i s te r s v ie w th a t t h i s p ro b a t i o n s h e i s
n o t g o in g to c o n f i rm i t a n d a l l t h a t .
B u t t h a t i s j u s t o n e p a r t o f t h e p u z z le C h a i rp e rs o n . I t i s n o t
t h e c o m p le te s to r y b e c a u s e h e h a s g o t n o f i n a l s a y a n d a l l t h a t . H e
h a s g o t n o f i n a l s a y o n th e m a t te r. A n d e v e n th e th in g th a t r a i s e s i n
t h a t l e t t e r h e ra i s e s i s s u e s o f c o n d u c t a n d th i s a n d th a t . H e m a k e s h i s
i s s u e s b e c a u s e p ro b a t i o n i s s u e s g e n e ra l l y a re p e r fo rm a n c e re la te d
i s s u e s .
S h e a lw a y s j u s t m a k e s i s s u e s u p a n d a l l o f t h a t . T h i s i s w h y I 10
t h i n k m a y b e m y la w y e rs n e v e r s h o w e d i t t o m e o r s a w – o f w h a te v e r.
T h e y j u s t d e a l t w i t h t h e s u b s ta n c e o f i t a s t h e y w e re g i v in g m e a d v i c e
a n d a s I w a s w r i t i n g t o M in i s te r B a lo y i . B e c a u s e M in i s te r B a lo y i h a d
s a id t h a t i f I d e a l w i th h im h e d o e s n o t l i k e to d e a l w i th l a w y e rs . Yo u
k n o w s o I w o u ld d e a l w i th h im j a l i k e t h a t . B u t I w o u ld g e t a d v i c e
b e h in d th e s c e n e s b u t j u s t d e a l w i t h h im a s o p p o s e d to h im re c e iv in g
l e t t e r s w i th l e t t e rh e a d s f r o m th e l a w y e rs a n d s o o n a n d th a t s t r o n g
l a n g u a g e .
S o h e j u s t w a s a v e ry p e rs o n – v e ry f r i e n d l y p e rs o n g e n e ra l l y.
S o h e d id n o t l i k e f i g h ts . S o j a s o th a t i s m y p o s i t i o n . 20
A D V H O F M E Y R : C h a i r t h a t w a s a l o n g a n s w e r. I t w a s n o t a n a n s w e r
t o m y q u e s t i o n . M y q u e s t i o n i s M r M a n y i d id y o u s e e th e c o n te n t o f t h e
l e t t e r?
M R M A N Y I : N o .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . L e t u s g o to w h a t y o u w ro te a b o u t t h e
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l e t t e r t o M in i s te r B a lo y i o n th e 1 5 t h o f N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 0 . C h a i r y o u w i l l
f i n d t h a t a t N N 5 a t p a g e 2 9 0 .
M R M A N Y I : C a n I i n te r j e c t C h a i r?
C H A IR P E R S O N : S o r r y ?
M R M A N Y I : C a n I i n te r j e c t?
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A N Y I : I i n te r j e c t b e c a u s e I t h in k w e ta l k in g c ro s s p u rp o s e s . I
m a k e re fe re n c e to t h e fa c t t h a t I d id t h a t l e t t e r u n d e r a d v i c e . A n d I
s a id e a r l i e r t h a t m o s t p ro b a b ly m y la w y e rs g o t t h e l e t t e r b e c a u s e th e y
e v e n h a v e th e d a te a n d b e c a u s e w e d o in g th i s t h in g u n d e r a d v i c e a n d 10
s o m e o f t h e i n p u t c a m e f ro m th e m . S o th e re w o u ld h a v e b e e n – I h a v e
s ig n e d th e l e t t e r. I a m n o t r u n n in g a w a y f r o m th a t . I h a v e s ig n e d th e
l e t t e r a n d I t a k e fu l l r e s p o n s ib i l i t y f o r s i g n in g th e l e t t e r. B u t t h e
c o n te n t o f t h e l e t t e r e v e n i f s h e w a n ts t o q u o te p a ra g ra p h s w h e re I
w o u ld h a v e q u o te d th a t l e t t e r. B u t I a m s a y in g I d id t h i s u n d e r l e g a l
a d v i c e s o s o m e o f t h e i n p u t i t i s a lm o s t l i k e i f h e w a s to g o to t h a t
l e t t e r a n d f i n d th e c a s e l a w w h ic h I w o u ld h a v e s a id I h a v e n e v e r re a d
th a t c a s e a n d s o o n . B u t i f I a m w o rk in g u n d e r a d v i c e a n d th e y s a y
q u o te c a s e l a w s o a n d s o I w o u ld q u o te t h a t c a s e l a w in t h a t l e t t e r a n d
s ig n th a t l e t t e r. B u t i t d o e s n o t m e a n th a t I r e a d th e l e t t e r. I t d o e s n o t 20
m e a n th a t I r e a d th a t c a s e l a w a s i t w e re . S o I t h in k t h e e x e rc i s e s h e
i s d o in g n o w i s e x e rc i s e i n f u t i l i t y C h a i rp e rs o n . B e c a u s e s h e i s j u s t
g o in g to m e n t io n s o m e th in g th a t i s i n t h e l e t t e r a n d s a y y o u s e e – a n d I
k e e p s a y in g I d id t h i s u n d e r t h i s t h e a d v i c e o f t h e l a w y e rs . S o
. . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
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C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s n o – t h a t i s f i n e M r M a n y i l e t u s w a i t f o r h e r
f u r th e r q u e s t i o n s a n d th e n y o u c a n re s p o n d . W h a t i s t h e p a g e a g a in ?
A D V H O F M E Y R : I t i s i n E x h ib i t N N 5 p a g e 2 9 0 .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a i r. M r M a n y i b e fo re w e g o to t h i s l e t t e r
t h e re a re a n u m b e r o f l e t t e r s t h a t y o u r l a w y e rs w ro te . D id y o u g i v e
th e m in s t ru c t i o n s o n th o s e l e t t e r s ?
C H A IR P E R S O N : W e l l m a y b e y o u m ig h t w is h to u s e a n o th e r w o rd
ra th e r t h a n i n s t ru c t i o n b e c a u s e th a t i s v e ry l e g a l . S o . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s i t i s v e ry l e g a l i t i s j u s t M r M a n y i h a s b e e n 10
e d u c a t in g u s a b o u t t h e l a w fo r a l a rg e p o r t i o n o f t h i s m o rn in g .
C H A IR P E R S O N : J a .
A D V H O F M E Y R : S o I t h o u g h t h i s f a m i l i a r i t y w i th t h e l a w m ig h t i n c lu d e
a n u n d e rs ta n d in g o f i n s t ru c t i o n s . B u t l e t m e b e c le a r. W h e n y o u r
l a w y e rs w r i t e l e t t e r s o n y o u r b e h a l f a re y o u te l l i n g th e m th e fa c t s t h a t
a re re le v a n t t o p u t i n t h o s e l e t t e r s ?
M R M A N Y I : C h a i r i n t h e – i n t h e re i s a y e s a n d s o m e th in g e l s e fo r t h a t
a n s w e r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : A y e s a n d a n o ?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s . 20
C H A IR P E R S O N : O r q u a l i f i e d y e s ?
M R M A N Y I : J a .
C H A IR P E R S O N : H u h -u h .
M R M A N Y I : A q u a l i f i e d y e s . Ye s , b e c a u s e I t h in k th o s e th a t h a v e
b r i e fe d l a w y e rs w i l l k n o w th a t i s a lw a y s a d i s c u s s io n p o in t t h a t n o , n o ,
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n o . I h e a r w h a t y o u m e a n , b u t i f y o u s a y th a t t h e s e a re t h e
im p l i c a t i o n s . D o n o t s a y i t t h i s w a y. S a y i t t h i s w a y. S o th a t k in d o f a
t h in g h a p p e n s w h e n y o u b r i e f l a w y e rs .
S o th e y g e t t h e s e n s e o f w h a t y o u w a n t t o s a y, b u t t h e y
a s s i s t y o u to a r r i v e a t w h a t y o u w a n t t o s a y. S o m e t im e s th e y u s e th e i r
o w n fo rm u la t i o n w h ic h y o u m u s t s t i l l a p p ro v e a n d a l l o f t h a t . T h e y u s e
th e i r o w n fo rm u la t i o n a n d s o o n , b u t s o th e re fo re t h e fa c t t h a t y o u
i n s t ru c t l a w y e rs c a n n o t b e i n te rp re te d to m e a n th a t t h e y a re j u s t a
c o n v e y o r b e l t .
C H A IR P E R S O N : S o b a s i c a l l y I t h in k y o u r a n s w e r i s g e n e ra l l y s p e a k in g 10
t h e y w o u ld g e t t h e fa c t s f r o m th e c l i e n t?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s .
C H A IR P E R S O N : B u t h o w th e y fo rm u la te th e l e t t e r – a l e t t e r o n b e h a l f
o f a c l i e n t m ig h t b e th e i r o w n c h o ic e o f w o rd s a n d fo rm u la t i o n , b u t i n
t h e e n d th e c l i e n t n e e d s to b e h a p p y ?
M R M A N Y I : T h e y s o m e t im e s h e lp y o u e v e n w i th t h e fa c t s
. . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A N Y I : To s u p p o r t w h a t y o u a re s a y in g .
C H A IR P E R S O N : O k a y. 20
M R M A N Y I : To s a y o k a y i f y o u s a y th i s y o u h a v e to a d d th i s f a c t .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A N Y I : I f y o u s a y th i s y o u m u s t a d d th i s f a c t . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
M R M A N Y I : A n d a l l o f t h a t . Yo u s t i l l s i g n o f f . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
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C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A N Y I : B u t i t i s a t e a m w o rk . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : H u h -u h .
M R M A N Y I : To a r r i v e a t a p a r t i c u la r p o s i t i o n .
C H A IR P E R S O N : O k a y. A l r i g h t . M s H o fm e y r.
A D V H O F M E Y R : I w i l l p i c k u p o n th a t p o in t w h e n w e g o to t h e l a w y e r ’s
l e t t e r s . L e t u s g o to t h e l e t t e r a t N N 5 2 9 0 . M r M a n y i y o u c o n f i rm th i s
i s a l e t t e r y o u w ro te to M in i s te r B a lo y i o n th e 1 5 t h o f N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 0 ?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s C h a i r. C o r re c t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : I w o u ld l i k e t o p i c k u p a f e w a s p e c ts o f i t t h a t b e a r 10
r e le v a n c e to t h e te s t im o n y y o u h a v e g i v e n . A t p a ra g ra p h 1 .4 o n p a g e
2 9 0 y o u s a y i n t h a t l e t t e r :
“O n th e 1 3 t h o f J u l y 2 0 1 0 m o re th a n f i v e w e e k s a f t e r m y
p re c a u t io n a ry s u s p e n s io n h e … ”
T h a t i s r e fe re n c e to M in i s te r M d la d la n a .
“… th e n p re s e n te d m e w i th 1 2 c h a rg e s . ”
D o y o u s e e th a t?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s C h a i r.
A D V H O F M E Y R : I n N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 0 y o u h a d n o d i f f i c u l t y u n d e rs ta n d in g
th a t w h a t y o u h a d b e e n p re s e n te d w i th w e re 1 2 c h a rg e s . I s t h a t 20
c o r re c t?
M R M A N Y I : I b e g y o u r p a rd o n .
A D V H O F M E Y R : W h e n y o u w ro te t h i s l e t t e r i n N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 0 y o u h a d
n o d i f f i c u l t y u n d e rs ta n d in g th a t w h a t y o u h a d b e e n p re s e n te d w i t h b y
M r M d la d la n a w e re 1 2 c h a rg e s . C o r re c t?
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M R M A N Y I : N o t c o r re c t . I p u t 1 2 c h a rg e s h e re C h a i r, b u t t h e
u n d e rs ta n d in g – I p u t 1 2 c h a rg e s h e re . Ye s , b u t t h e u n d e rs ta n d in g th a t
I a r t i c u la te d y e s te rd a y c a r r i e s . I p ro b a b ly w a s g e n e ro u s i n s a y in g 1 2
c h a rg e s . I p ro b a b ly s h o u ld h a v e 1 2 a l l e g a t i o n s a n d s o o n , b u t j a .
A D V H O F M E Y R : I f y o u g o o v e r t h e p a g e to p a g e 2 9 1 . A t t h e b o t to m o f
t h a t p a g e i s p a ra g ra p h 1 .11 . I n t h a t p a ra g ra p h y o u s ta te t h e fo l l o w in g :
“A c o u p le o f d a y s l a te r o n th e 3 0 t h o f O c to b e r 2 0 1 0 … ”
C h a i r j u s t t o o r i e n ta te u s i n t h e l e t t e r. T h e re h a s b e e n a
re fe re n c e p re v io u s l y t o t h e h e a r in g th a t w a s c o n v e n e d o n th e 2 8 t h
o f O c to b e r. Yo u w i l l r e c a l l t h a t M in i s te r M d la d la n a ’s l e t t e r i s d a te d th e 10
2 9 t h o f O c to b e r a n d h e re M r M a n y i a n d I q u o te :
“… is t a l k i n g a b o u t w h a t h a p p e n e d o n th e 3 0 t h
o f O c to b e r. ”
H e w r i t e s a s f o l l o w s :
“A c o u p le o f d a y s l a te r o n th e 3 0 t h o f O c to b e r 2 0 1 0 m y
a t t o rn e y s re c e i v e d a l e t t e r d a te d 2 9 t h o f O c to b e r 2 0 1 0
f r o m th e fo rm e r M in i s te r o f L a b o u r w h e re in h e a d d e d
b ra n d n e w a l l e g a t i o n s o f a d m in i s t r a t i v e n a tu re a n d m o re
im p o r ta n t l y h e a l l e g e d th a t t h e re w a s m is t ru s t a n d th a t
h e i s n o w te rm in a t i n g th e p ro b a t io n w i th e f f e c t f r o m th e 20
3 0 t h o f N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 0 . ”
S o i n d e e d th e te rm in a t i o n a n n o u n c e m e n t b y th e fo rm e r
M in i s te r ’s l a w y e rs w a s b e in g fo rm a l l y c o n f i rm e d b y th e fo rm e r
M in i s te r ’s l e t t e r a n d th u s a g a in a b a n d o n m e n t o f c h a rg e s w a s fo rm a l l y
c o n f i rm e d . M r M a n y i i n t h i s p a ra g ra p h y o u ta l k a b o u t w h a t w a s
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c o n ta in e d i n t h e l e t t e r. D o y o u s t i l l m a in ta in t h a t y o u n e v e r s a w th a t
l e t t e r?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s . I c o n f i rm th a t I n e v e r s a w th a t l e t t e r.
A D V H O F M E Y R : S o w h e n y o u r a t t o rn e y s g a v e y o u r re s p o n s e to t h e
l e t t e r w h e n th e y w ro te to t h e n e w M in i s te r o f L a b o u r o n th e 3 r d
o f N o v e m b e r d id t h e y m a k e u p th a t r e s p o n s e ?
M R M A N Y I : I d o n o t u n d e rs ta n d w h y y o u a re s a y in g th a t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : W e l l b e c a u s e y o u a re t e l l i n g t h i s C o m m is s io n th a t
y o u n e v e r s a w a l e t t e r a n d th e re i s a l e t t e r f r o m y o u r a t t o rn e y s d a te d
th e 3 r d o f N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 0 in w h ic h th e y c o m m u n ic a te t o t h e n e w 10
M in is te r o f L a b o u r M in i s te r O l i p h a n t y o u r r e s p o n s e to t h e l e t t e r o f
M in i s te r M d la d la n a . I s y o u r e v id e n c e b e fo re t h i s C o m m is s io n th a t t h e y
m a d e u p th a t r e s p o n s e ?
M R M A N Y I : J a . Yo u s e e C h a i rp e rs o n . T h i s i s t h e k in d o f t h in g th a t
h a p p e n s h e re . I d id s a y h e re th a t t h i s l e t t e r t h a t I w ro te t o
M in i s te r O l i p h a n t – t o M in i s te r B a lo y i . I r e a d th a t – I w ro te t h a t l e t t e r
u n d e r a d v i c e . I s a id t h i s h e re a n d I d id g i v e th e – I d id s a y s o m e th in g
to t h e e f f e c t t h a t t h e l a w y e rs w o u ld h a v e re c e i v e d th i s l e t t e r a n d th e y
w e re re fe r r i n g to t h a t c o n te n t a n d I d id m a k e a n e x a m p le .
O n e s e c o n d . I m u s t r e p e a t t h i s . T h a t i f – e v e n i f t h e y w e re 20
t o q u o te c a s e l a w a n d s o o n I w o u ld w r i t e t h a t c a s e l a w. E v e n th o u g h I
h a v e n o t r e a d th e c a s e l a w i t s e l f a n d i f t h e re i s a n y c o n te n t o r a n y p a r t
o f t h a t t h e y w o u ld h a v e g i v e n m e f r o m p a r t i c u la r c a s e l a w. I w o u ld
w r i t e t h a t p a ra g ra p h a n d a l l t h a t .
Yo u s e e i f I w a s w r i t i n g – i f t h i s i s j u s t a l e t t e r. I f i t w a s a n
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a f f i d a v i t C h a i rp e rs o n th e re i s s o m e w o rd in g th a t i s u s u a l l y p u t t h e re .
T h a t – t o c o v e r t h e s e k in d s o f t h in g s . T h a t w e w i l l d o i t u n d e r l e g a l
t h in g . T h e re i s a . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : L e g a l a d v i c e .
M R M A N Y I : Ye s . T h a t i s l e g a l a d v i c e . Yo u – n o rm a l l y d o n e , b u t t h i s i s
a l e t t e r. S o th e re w a s n o t t h a t k in d o f w o rd in g .
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
M R M A N Y I : I s h o u ld h a v e – I w o u ld h a v e p u t i t . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
M R M A N Y I : I f t h i s w a s a n a f f i d a v i t . 10
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
M R M A N Y I : N o w s h e th e n ta k e s th e i n p u t w h ic h th e l a w y e rs m a k e to
M in i s te r O l i p h a n t . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
M R M A N Y I : O r t o M s O l ip h a n t a n d th e y q u o te I s u s p e c t . I h a v e n o t
r e a d . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y M r M a n y i . I a m g o in g to i n te r ru p t y o u . I
t h in k i t w i l l b e b e t te r i f w e g o to t h a t l e t t e r . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
M R M A N Y I : J a .
C H A IR P E R S O N : O n w h ic h M s H o fm e y r ’s q u e s t i o n i s b a s e d b e fo re y o u 20
c a n a n s w e r.
M R M A N Y I : O k a y. W h e re i s t h a t l e t t e r?
C H A IR P E R S O N : L e t u s h a v e a l o o k a t t h a t l e t t e r.
A D V H O F M E Y R : C e r ta in l y C h a i r. T h e l e t t e r c o m m e n c e s i n t h e s a m e
b u n d le N N 5 a t p a g e 2 9 7 .
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C H A IR P E R S O N : A n d th e n M s H o fm e y r t h e re i s a p a r t i c u la r p a r t
. . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
C H A IR P E R S O N : O f t h e l e t t e r t h a t i s im p o r ta n t f o r y o u r q u e s t i o n .
A D V H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
C H A IR P E R S O N : T h e n m a y b e y o u c a n d ra w a t te n t i o n to t h a t p a r t a n d
th e n . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
A D V H O F M E Y R : O f c o u rs e . I w i l l g o t h e re i n a m o m e n t i f I m a y C h a i r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : I t i s a l e t t e r o f f i v e p a g e s . I t i s d a te d th e 3 r d 10
o f N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 0 . Yo u s e e th a t o n i t s f i r s t p a g e . A d d re s s e d to f i r s t
M in i s te r O l i p h a n t a n d th e m M in i s te r B a lo y i a n d th e p a ra g ra p h
. . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : B y th e a t to rn e y s fo r – re p re s e n t in g M r M a n y i .
A D V H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
C H A IR P E R S O N : L a n g a A t to rn e y s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : L a n g a A t to rn e y s . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d th e p a ra g ra p h I a m p a r t i c u la r l y i n te re s te d i n t h a t
g i v e s M r M a n y i ’s r e s p o n s e to t h e l e t t e r o f t h e 2 9 t h o f O c to b e r i s a t p a g e 20
3 0 0 …
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d i t i s a t p a ra g ra p h 6 .1 i n t h a t p a ra g ra p h a n d i t i s
t h e l a s t s e n te n c e o f t h a t p a ra g ra p h , b u t j u s t t o r e a d i n t h e re w h a t t h e
l a w y e rs a re re c o rd in g i s a l e g a l p o in t i n i t i a l l y. L e g a l l y i t i s n o t
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c o m p e te n t f o r t h e fo rm e r M in i s te r i n t e rm s o f t h e P u b l i c S e rv i c e
A m e n d m e n t A c t t o p u rp o r t – t o a l t e r t h e te rm a n d – to a l t e r o r t e rm in a te
t h e D G ’s e m p lo y m e n t o n th e b a s i s o f a n a l l e g e d b re a k d o w n o f t r u s t .
A s th e D G ’s e m p lo y m e n t c o n t ra c t r e g u la te s te rm in a t i o n o r
a l t e ra t i o n o f t h e c o n d i t i o n s o f s e rv i c e a n d n e e d le s s to s a y th a t t h e
a l l e g a t i o n o f b re a k d o w n o f t r u s t i s n o t r e c o g n is e d a s a g ro u n d th a t i s
c o m p e te n t f o r u n i l a te ra l t e rm in a t i o n o f t h e D G ’s t h re e -y e a r c o n t ra c t
w i t h t h e D e p a r tm e n t . T h a t i s t h e l e a d i n to t h e s e n te n c e th a t p la c e s o n
re c o rd M r M a n y i ’s r e s p o n s e to t h e l e t t e r. T h e l a w y e rs g o a n d w r i t e a n d
I q u o te : 10
“W e fu r th e r p la c e i t o n re c o rd th a t M r M a n y i i s p re s e n t l y
s u rp r i s e d a t t h e fo rm e r M in i s te r ’s a l l e g a t i o n o f t h e
a l l e g e d b re a k d o w n o f t r u s t a s M r M a n y i r e m a in s i n d e b te d
a n d re s p e c t fu l t o t h e fo rm e r M in i s te r. W i th re s p e c t
t h e s e a l l e g a t i o n s h a v e s in c e b e c o m e a c a d e m ic . ”
C h a i r, I r e l y o n th a t s ta te m e n t i n t h i s l e t t e r f o r p u t t i n g th e
q u e s t i o n to M r M a n y i a s t o w h e th e r w h e n th i s r e s p o n s e o f h i s t o t h e
l e t t e r o f M r M d la d la n a i f p la c e d in a l e t t e r b y h i s l a w y e rs . I t i s h i s
e v id e n c e th a t t h e y m a d e u p th i s r e s p o n s e .
M R M A N Y I : I t h i n k t h a t q u e s t i o n i s i r r a t i o n a l C h a i r, b e c a u s e th e 20
l a w y e rs w o u ld h a v e re a d th a t l e t t e r f r o m fo rm e r M in i s te r M d la d la n a
w h ic h ta l k s a b o u t t h a t m is t ru s t . S o w h e n th e y q u o te i t h e re . T h e y
q u o te f r o m w h a t t h e y h a v e re a d th e m s e lv e s .
T h e y d o n o t s a y h e re th a t I s a id I s a id I r e a d th e l e t t e r. T h e y
d o n o t s a y I s a id I r e a d th e l e t t e r a n d a l l o f t h a t a n d I t h in k i n t h e
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i s s u e s o f m is t ru s t a n d w h a te v e r. I t i s p ro b a b ly – I t h in k i t – i t w i l l a l s o
– I s u s p e c t i t w i l l b e s o m e w h e re i n t h e l i s t o f a l l e g a t i o n s th a t t h e
M in i s te r w o u ld h a v e p u t o n m e a n d a l l o f t h a t .
S o i t w a s s o m e th in g th a t w a s c o m m o n . T h i s i s w h y I h a v e
a lw a y s s a id t h a t t h e i s s u e th a t w e h a d w h e n I f i r s t r e s p o n d e d to t h e
C h a i r a b o u t w h a t h a p p e n e d a t t h e D e p a r tm e n t o f L a b o u r t h e f i r s t t im e I
w a s a n s w e r in g th i s q u e s t i o n . I s a id w e h a d a fa l l o u t . T h a t i s e x a c t l y
w h a t h a p p e n e d . W e h a d a fa l l o u t .
T h a t i s w h a t t h i s i s h e re . S o fo r - s o fo r A d v o c a te H o fm e y r t o
im p o r t h e r o w n u n d e rs ta n d in g th a t t h i s m e a n s I r e a d th e l e t t e r i s t o ta l l y 10
i n c o r re c t .
C H A IR P E R S O N : L e t m e ju s t a s k t h i s . Yo u c e r ta in l y h a v e s a id y o u
n e v e r s a w th e l e t t e r . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
M R M A N Y I : Ye s .
C H A IR P E R S O N : U n t i l O c to b e r t h i s y e a r. T h a t i s o n e p o in t . S e c o n d ly,
y o u d id c o n c e d e th a t y o u r a t t o rn e y s d id re c e i v e i t o r w o u ld h a v e
re c e i v e d i t I t h in k . T h e y w e re im p o r ta n t .
M R M A N Y I : Ye s C h a i r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : S o I t h in k w e c a n w o rk o n th e b a s i s t h a t t h e y
re c e i v e d i t . 20
M R M A N Y I : J a .
C H A IR P E R S O N : I d o n o t k n o w i f t h e y re s p o n d e d to i t . C a n w e ta k e i t
t h a t t h e y – e v e n th o u g h y o u m ig h t n o t h a v e re c e iv e d th e l e t t e r y o u rs e l f
a t t h e t im e th a t y o u r a t t o rn e y s i n fo rm e d y o u w h a t t h e c o n te n ts o f t h e
l e t t e r w e re ?
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M R M A N Y I : H ’m m .
C H A IR P E R S O N : E i t h e r b y re a d in g i t t o y o u m a y b e o v e r t h e p h o n e o r
b y n o t r e a d in g i t t o y o u , b u t j u s t t e l l i n g y o u th i s i s w h a t t h e l e t t e r s a y s .
I s t h a t w h a t h a p p e n e d o r w h a t i s t h e p o s i t i o n ?
M R M A N Y I : I d o n o t r e m e m b e r C h a i r a s t o a t w h ic h p o in t – i n f a c t I d o
n o t r e m e m b e r a p o in t w h e re w e d i s c u s s e d th e l e t t e r . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : T h e l e t t e r.
M R M A N Y I : S p e c i f i c a l l y.
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A N Y I : E x c e p t w h e n I w a s w r i t i n g a l e t t e r t o M in i s te r B a lo y i . 10
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A N Y I : T h a t w h e n w e w e re m a k in g i n p u ts . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A N Y I : B e c a u s e th e re h a s b e e n – l a w y e rs c o r re s p o n d w i th e a c h
o th e r r e g u la r l y . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
M R M A N Y I : A n d s o o n . S o s o m e t im e s i t i s n o t e v e n p o s s ib le t o k e e p
t r a c k .
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
M R M A N Y I : S o w h e n th e y m a d e re fe re n c e to t h a t l e t t e r a n d s o o n . I t 20
w a s a m o n g s t m a n y c o r re s p o n d e n c e th a t t h e y m a k e re fe re n c e to
g e n e ra l l y. I m e a n I s e e th a t i t i s a lm o s t l i k e a l a w y e r ’s a p p ro a c h to
s a y. O n y o u r l e t t e r d a te d th i s i s – t h e y d o th i s a l l t h e t im e . S o y o u
n e v e r k n o w w h ic h l e t t e r e v e n th e y re fe r t o . S o I n e v e r . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : S o . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
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M R M A N Y I : M a d e th e c o n n e c t i o n .
C H A IR P E R S O N : S o y o u r a n s w e r i s y o u h a v e n o re c o l l e c t i o n th a t y o u
a n d y o u r l a w y e rs h a d a s p e c i f i c d i s c u s s io n o f t h e c o n te n ts o f t h e
c o n te n ts o f t h e l e t t e r, b u t i t m a y h a v e b e e n o r s o m e p o in t s o f i t m a y
h a v e b e e n d i s c u s s e d in t h e m id s t o f . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
M R M A N Y I : T h a t i s c o r re c t C h a i r. T h a t i s a p ro p e r f o rm u la t i o n C h a i r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : O k a y. A l r i g h t . M s H o fm e y r.
A D V H O F M E Y R : S o w h e n y o u r a t t o rn e y s re c o rd e d th a t y o u w e re
p le a s a n t l y s u rp r i s e d b y t h e c o n te n t o f t h e l e t t e r. W e re th e y a c c u ra te l y
c o n v e y in g y o u r re a c t i o n to i t ? 10
M R M A N Y I : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : I w o u ld t h e n l i k e t o g o b a c k to t h e l e t t e r y o u w ro te
M r M a n y i , b e c a u s e y o u h a v e to ld u s a b i t a b o u t t h i s l e t t e r. I t i s t h e o n e
C h a i r a t N N 5 p a g e 2 9 0 . Yo u h a v e s a id t h a t t h i s i s a l e t t e r t h a t t h e
l a w y e rs h a d i n v o l v e m e n t i n . I s t h a t c o r re c t?
C H A IR P E R S O N : T h a t i s t h e o n e to M in i s te r B a lo y i?
A D V H O F M E Y R : B a lo y i .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a i r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : J a . 20
A D V H O F M E Y R : D a te d th e 1 5 t h o f N o v e m b e r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : Yo u s a id y o u r l a w y e rs m a d e in p u t o n th i s l e t t e r. I s
t h a t c o r re c t?
M R M A N Y I : T h a t i s c o r re c t C h a i r.
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A D V H O F M E Y R : Yo u a l s o . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : C a n y o u re p e a t t h e p a g e ?
A D V H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g ie s C h a i r. I t i s 2 9 0 .
C H A IR P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u .
A D V H O F M E Y R : Yo u h a v e a l s o m a d e re fe re n c e to t h e fa c t t h a t w h e n
y o u r l a w y e rs w o u ld d i s c u s s c a s e l a w w i th y o u . Yo u w o u ld s o m e t im e s
p u t t h a t i n to l e t t e r s w i t h o u t y o u rs e l f g o in g to v e r i f y i t . I s t h a t c o r re c t?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s C h a i r.
A D V H O F M E Y R : I d o n o t r e a d a n y c a s e l a w re fe re n c e s i n t h i s l e t t e r o f
t h e 1 5 t h o f N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 0 . A m I r i g h t i n t h a t r e a d in g ? 10
M R M A N Y I : N o . Yo u a re r i g h t C h a i r, b u t I w a s m a k in g a n e x a m p le .
T h a t i f t h e y w e re to q u o te c a s e l a w a n d w h a te v e r t h e y w o u ld re fe re n c e
i n t h a t c a s e l a w. I w o u ld t a k e th e i r w o rd fo r i t . T h a t w a s j u s t a n
e x a m p le . Yo u s e e th i s i s t h e th in g a b o u t n o t o p e ra t i n g i n g o o d fa i t h .
N o w M s H o f fm a n – M s H o fm e y r i s r e a l l y h e l l - b e n t o n t r y in g to
w e a p o n iz e e v e ry th in g th a t s h e c o u ld f i n d .
I h o n e s t l y – C h a i r d o n o t f e e l t h a t t h i s d i s c u s s io n i s i n g o o d
fa i t h . S h e i s n o w – i t i s a lm o s t a w in a n d l o s e s i t u a t i o n h e re . S h e i s
h e re t o j u s t t r y a n d j u s t w in t h i s b a t t l e a n d a l l w h o a re h e re i n t h i s
C o m m is s io n i s t o g i v e th e t r u th a n d w e a re s i t t i n g h e re n o w w a s t i n g 20
t im e o n a n u n la w fu l l e t t e r. T h i s l e t t e r i s u n la w fu l .
W e a re b u s y s p l i t t i n g h a i r s , b u t t h i s l e t t e r i s u n la w fu l b o t to m -
l i n e . W h y a re w e s p l i t t i n g h a i r s o n s o m e th in g th a t i s u n la w fu l? W h y w e
a re w a s t i n g t im e o n th i s ?
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s M r M a n y i y o u h a v e m a d e y o u r p o in t . I h a v e
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h e a rd y o u r p o in t , b u t l e t u s m a y – l e t u s h a v e s o m e p ro g re s s .
M s H o fm e y r.
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . I u n d e rs ta n d y o u w o u ld n o t r e l y o n y o u r
a t t o rn e y ’s a d v i c e fo r f a c t s i n a l e t t e r. I s t h a t c o r re c t?
M R M A N Y I : Yo u s e e s h e i s s p in n in g a g a in . S p in n in g a g a in . W h e n d id
I s a y th a t? W h y d o y o u n o t j u s t m a k e y o u r p o in t M s H o f fm a n –
H o fm e y r?
C H A IR P E R S O N : M r M a n y i i t w i l l h e lp i f y o u j u s t r e s p o n d . S o s h e c a n
– y o u k n o w w h e n c o u n s e l i s a s k in g q u e s t i o n s . S h e k n o w s w h a t s h e i s
p ro b in g a n d s o m e t im e s th a t m ig h t n o t b e a p p a re n t t o t h e w i tn e s s , b u t 10
s h e k n o w s w h a t s h e i s p ro b in g . L e t u s g i v e h e r a c h a n c e to
… ( in te r v e n e s ) .
M R M A N Y I : B u t s h e m u s t n o t a s k a w ro n g l e a d in g q u e s t i o n C h a i r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
M R M A N Y I : T h i s i s a l o a d e d q u e s t i o n , b e c a u s e s h e w a n ts t o m a k e a
p a r t i c u la r n e fa r i o u s p o in t .
C H A IR P E R S O N : W e l l w a i t f o r i t . Wa i t f o r t h e n e fa r i o u s p o in t a n d d e a l
w i t h i t w h e n s h e m a k e s i t . T h a n k y o u .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h e p o in t o f t h e l e t t e r t h a t I w o u ld n e x t l i k e t o g o to
i s a t p a g e 2 9 3 . C h a i r a n d j u s t f o r t h e re c o rd I d o n o t h a v e i t t h a t 20
M r M a n y i h a s a n s w e re d m y q u e s t i o n a b o u t w h e th e r h e re l i e d o n h i s
l a w y e rs fo r f a c t s , b u t I a m h a p p y to m o v e o n a n d c o m e b a c k to i t i f
n e c e s s a ry.
C H A IR P E R S O N : O k a y. A l r i g h t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a i r. A t p a g e 2 9 3 p a ra g ra p h 3 .4 .
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M r M a n y i y o u w r i t e t h e re :
“ I c o n te n d th a t t h e re i s n o p re s c r i p t t h a t a l l o w s th e
fo rm e r M in i s te r t o f i r e m e th e w a y h e d id . ”
D o y o u s e e th a t?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s . I d o .
A D V H O F M E Y R : Yo u a c c e p t i t t h e n w h e n y o u w ro te t h i s l e t t e r d id y o u
n o t t h a t y o u h a d b e e n f i r e d ?
M R M A N Y I : N o . I t i s b e c a u s e – I d id n o t a c c e p t t h a t I h a d – I w a s
f i r e d , b e c a u s e th e w o rd f i r e /d i s m is s e d c a n n o t b e e x e c u te d i n
c o m p le t i o n w i th o u t t h e i n v o l v e m e n t o f t h e P re s id e n t . T h e o n l y t im e a 10
M in is te r c a n p u rp o r t t o h a v e s u c c e e d e d in t h i s m is s io n C h a i r i s i f t h e
P re s id e n t i s i n v o l v e d . S o w i th o u t t h e i n v o l v e m e n t o f t h e P re s id e n t t h i s
i s j u s t s o m e b o d y . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : W e l l t h e – a s I r e a d th a t p a ra g ra p h in y o u r l e t t e r.
T h e p o in t y o u a re m a k in g th e re i s t h a t t h e M in i s te r h a d n o a u th o r i t y t o
f i r e y o u .
M R M A N Y I : Ye s C h a i r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : H a d n o p o w e r t o f i r e y o u .
M R M A N Y I : E x a c t l y C h a i r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : O k a y. 20
A D V H O F M E Y R : C h a i r . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : I a m g o in g to m o v e o n to t h e q u e s t i o n s w i th M r M a n y i
a n d I a m re a l l y s e e k in g y o u r g u id a n c e o n th i s . M r M a n y i h a s m a d e a
n u m b e r o f l e g a l s u b m is s io n s a b o u t h o w c a n f i r e a n d w h o c a n n o t f i r e .
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C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : I t i s n o t m y i n te n t i o n to e n g a g e i n a l e g a l d e b a te
. . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : W i th a w i t n e s s w h o d o e s n o t h o ld h im s e l f o u t
. . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
A D V H O F M E Y R : To b e a p e rs o n w i th l e g a l t r a in in g .
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
A D V H O F M E Y R : C a n I j u s t c l a r i f y M r M a n y i , b e c a u s e I g o t i n to a l i t t l e 10
b i t o f t r o u b le o n th i s y e s te rd a y.
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
A D V H O F M E Y R : D o y o u h a v e l e g a l t r a in in g ?
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
M R M A N Y I : N o C h a i r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . S o i t i s n o t m y i n te n t i o n to d e b a te th e
l a w . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
A D V H O F M E Y R : B u t C h a i r i t i s f a i r l y im p o r ta n t . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) . 20
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : I f I c o u ld j u s t t a k e o n e o r tw o m o m e n ts i n r e la t i o n to
t h e a p p l i c a b le l e g i s la t i v e re g im e , b e c a u s e n o t o n l y h a s M r M a n y i t o d a y
m a d e n u m e ro u s s u b m is s io n s a b o u t t h e l e g a l p o s i t i o n . H e a l s o i n h i s
a f f i d a v i t t o t h i s C o m m is s io n p u t u p a j u d g m e n t . T h e j u d g m e n t i n t h e
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A p le n i c a s e w h ic h d e a l t w i t h a d e c i s io n to s u s p e n d th e D G o f t h e
D e p a r tm e n t o f H o m e A f fa i r s .
S o h e h a s s o u g h t t o m a k e re fe re n c e to l a w a n d i t i s q u i t e
im p o r ta n t a t t h i s p o in t t h a t I m a k e s u b m is s io n s to y o u C h a i r a b o u t o u r
u n d e rs ta n d in g o f t h e l e g a l r e g im e . S im p ly s o th a t w e c a n h a v e th a t a s
a b a c k d ro p to t h e fu r th e r q u e s t i o n s . I a m in y o u r h a n d s i f I m a y b e
p e rm i t t e d to d o s o .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s . Yo u c a n m a k e th e s e – th o s e p o in t s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u s o m u c h . F o r t h a t p u rp o s e w e n e e d to g o
to t h e P u b l i c S e rv i c e A c t a n d y o u w i l l f i n d th a t i n t h e l e g i s la t i o n b u n d le . 10
I t c o m m e n c e s a t p a g e 2 8 a n d C h a i r t h e re le v a n t s e c t i o n c o m m e n c e s a t
p a g e 4 1 a n d th a t i s S e c t i o n 1 2 o f t h e P u b l i c S e rv i c e A c t .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Yo u s a id w e s h o u ld g o to p a g e 2 8 .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g ie s . F o r t h e c o m m e n c e m e n t a n d th e n I a m
in te re s te d i n p a g e 4 1 w h ic h i s t h e – c o n ta in s S e c t i o n 1 2 .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : C h a i r t h e re a re a f e w p o in t s t o m a k e a b o u t S e c t i o n 1 2
a n d th e n I n e e d to m a k e s o m e p o in t s a b o u t S e c t i o n 1 3 . I n b ro a d te rm s
C h a i r S e c t i o n 1 2 .1 i s t h e s e c t i o n th a t d e a l s w i th t h e a p p o in tm e n t o f
H e a d s o f D e p a r tm e n t a m o n g s t o th e rs a n d 1 2 .1 m a k e s i t c l e a r t h a t : 20
“N o tw i th s ta n d in g a n y th in g c o n t ra r y c o n ta in e d i n t h i s A c t ,
b u t s u b je c t t o c e r ta in s e c t i o n s th a t a re n o t p e r t i n e n t
n o w. T h e a p p o in tm e n t a n d o th e r c a re e r i n c id e n ts o f t h e
H e a d s o f D e p a r tm e n t a n d G o v e rn m e n t c o m p o n e n ts s h a l l
b e d e a l t w i t h i n t h e c a s e o f a ) a H e a d o f a N a t io n a l
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D e p a r tm e n t o r N a t io n a l G o v e rn m e n t C o m p o n e n t b y t h e
P re s id e n t . ”
C h a i r t h a t i s t h e s e c t i o n th a t t h e A p le n i c a s e w a s c o n c e rn e d
w i th .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : I t i s a l s o th e s e c t i o n th a t I u n d e rs ta n d M r M a n y i t o
h a v e b e e n m a d e – b e e n m a k in g re fe re n c e to . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : J a .
A D V H O F M E Y R : I n h i s p re v io u s te s t im o n y. S o w h a t i s c l e a r i n t h a t
s e c t i o n i s t h e a p p o in tm e n t a n d o th e r c a re e r i n c id e n ts o f H e a d s o f 10
D e p a r tm e n t a n d th a t i s a t e rm th a t i s u s e d to d e n o te a D i re c to r s -
G e n e ra l m u s t b e d o n e b y th e P re s id e n t . T h e s e c t i o n th a t a c tu a l l y w a s
u s e d to a f f e c t t h e t r a n s fe r o f M r M a s e k o a n d M r M a n y i i s 1 2 .3 . I j u s t
r e fe re n c e d th a t n o w. 1 2 .3 i n d i c a te s th a t :
“T h e P re s id e n t m a y t r a n s fe r t h e h e a d o f a N a t i o n a l
D e p a r tm e n t o r N a t i o n a l G o v e rn m e n t C o m p o n e n t b e fo re
o r a t t h e e x p i r y o f h i s t e rm o r e x te n d e d te rm . ”
A n d i t g o e s o n to t a l k a b o u t t h e y m u s t p e r fo rm s im i l a r f u n c t i o n s
o n a n e q u a l , h ig h e r o r l o w e r g ra d in g . C h a i r y o u w i l l r e c a l l w e l o o k e d a t
t h a t y e s te rd a y w i th M r M a s e k o . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) . 20
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n w e lo o k e d a t t h e re q u i re m e n ts f o r i t . O n e o f
w h ic h i s c o n s e n t a n d th e o th e r o f w h ic h i s p u b l i c o r a l t e rn a t i v e i s p u b l i c
i n te re s t , b u t w h a t t h e j u d g m e n t i n A p le n i h e ld w a s th a t b e c a u s e th e
a p p o in tm e n t a n d c a re e r i n c id e n ts i s a p o w e r g i v e n to t h e P re s id e n t .
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T h e d e c i s io n to p la c e o n s u s p e n s io n i s a c a re e r i n c id e n t .
I t i s n o t a p o w e r t h a t h a d b e e n d e le g a te d b y t h e P re s id e n t a n d
s o w h e n th e M in i s te r a c te d i n t h e A p le n i c a s e w i th o u t t h e P re s id e n t s h e
w a s fo u n d to h a v e a c te d u n la w fu l l y. S e c t i o n 1 3 o f t h e A c t t h o u g h C h a i r
d e a ls w i t h a p p o in tm e n t o n p ro b a t io n . M r M a n y i w a s o r i g in a l l y
a p p o in te d to t h e D e p a r tm e n t o f L a b o u r o n p ro b a t i o n .
T h e re i s a l e t t e r t o t h a t e f f e c t . I d o n o t e x p e c t M r M a n y i w i l l
d i s p u te t h a t , b u t w e c a n h a v e h i s a n s w e r i n a m o m e n t . I w o u ld j u s t l i k e
t o f i n i s h th e l a w p o in t . Yo u w i l l s e e S e c t i o n 1 3 o f t h e A c t s a y s :
“ I f s o re q u i re d b y re g u la t i o n a n E x e c u t i v e A u th o r i t y s h a l l 10
a p p o in t a n e m p lo y e e o n p ro b a t io n fo r s u c h p e r io d a s
m a y b e p re s c r ib e d fo r t h e re le v a n t c a te g o ry o f
e m p lo y e e s . ”
C H A IR P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y.
A D V H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g y. W e a re a t p a g e . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : O h . O k a y.
A D V H O F M E Y R : 4 2 C h a i r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : O k a y. N o .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g ie s .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Yo u s e e I – b e c a u s e o f w h e re S e c t i o n 1 2 i s 20
. . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
C H A IR P E R S O N : O n th e p a g e – o n w h ic h i t s ta r t s . I e x p e c te d 1 3 to b e
a t t h e to p o f t h e n e x t p a g e . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g ie s .
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C H A IR P E R S O N : B u t i t i s n o t t h e re .
A D V H O F M E Y R : N o . I t i s a l e n g th y 1 2 . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : S o th e re i s 1 2 A .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n i t i s i n te r s p e rs e d w i th t h e 1 2 A
. . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. N o w I . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d n o w w e a re d o w n a t t h e b o t to m o f p a g e 4 2 .
C H A IR P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g ie s .
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m . 10
A D V H O F M E Y R : S o w h a t t h a t s e c t i o n d e a ls w i th i s n o w a pp o in tm e n t
o n p ro b a t io n . I t s a y s :
“ I f s o re q u i re d b y re g u la t i o n a n E x e c u t i v e A u th o r i t y s h a l l
a p p o in t a n e m p lo y e e o n p ro b a t io n fo r s u c h p e r io d a s
m a y b e p re s c r ib e d o r t h e re le v a n t c a te g o ry o f
e m p lo y e e s . ”
A n d a t tw o :
“A f te r t h e c o m p le t i o n o f a p ro b a t i o n a ry p e r io d
c o n te m p la te d i n s u b s e c t i o n 1 a n E x e c u t i v e A u th o r i t y
s h a l l c o n f i rm th e p ro b a t i o n a ry p e r io d i f t h e e m p lo y e e 20
c o n c e rn e d h a s … ”
A n d th e n th e re a re tw o re q u i re m e n ts .
“… p e r fo rm s a t i s fa c to r i l y a n d c o m p l ie d w i th a l l t h e
c o n d i t i o n s to w h ic h h i s o r h e r a p p o in tm e n t w a s s u b je c t . ”
C h a i r, t h e E x e c u t i v e A u th o r i t y r e fe r re d to i n t h a t s e c t i o n i s t h e
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M in is te r. N o t t h e P re s id e n t . T h a t i s a l s o c o n f i rm e d in t h e A p le n i
j u d g m e n t . A lb e i t n o t r e fe re n c in g 1 3 b u t r e fe re n c in g th e re fe re n c e to
E x e c u t i v e A u th o r i t y i n t h e A c t . T h a t m e a n s C h a i r t h e s u m to ta l o f m y
l e g a l s u b m is s io n s i s t h a t t h e d e c i s io n to p la c e M r M a n y i o n p ro b a t io n to
d e te rm in e w h e th e r t o c o n f i rm th e p ro b a t io n a n d k e e p h im in t h e
e m p lo y m e n t o f t h e D e p a r tm e n t o f L a b o u r o r n o t i s a d e c i s io n th a t i s
g i v e n u n d e r t h e P u b l i c S e rv i c e A c t t o t h e M in i s te r a n d n o t t h e
P re s id e n t .
I n t h a t r e s p e c t i t i s d i f f e re n t t o t h e p o w e rs e x e rc i s e d u n d e r
S e c t i o n 1 2 . I t i s d i s t i n g u i s h a b le f r o m th e A p le n i j u d g m e n t a n d I m a k e 10
t h o s e s u b m is s io n s s im p ly s o th a t w e d o n o t n e e d to c o n t i n u e w i th a n
a s s e r te d l e g a l d e b a te b y M r M a n y i a b o u t t h e p a te n t u n la w fu ln e s s o f a
d e c i s io n b y M in i s te r M d la d la n a n o t t o c o n f i rm h i s p ro b a t io n w h ic h i s
w h a t h e d id i n t h e l e t t e r o f t h e 2 9 t h o f O c to b e r 2 0 1 0 .
T h e re i s n o u s e i n m y v ie w s u b je c t t o y o u r d i r e c t i o n C h a i r
h a v in g a l e g a l d e b a te w i th M r M a n y i . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
A D V H O F M E Y R : B u t t h e c o u rs e o f t h e e v id e n c e I s u b m i t s h o u ld n o t
t a k e c o u rs e . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m . 20
A D V H O F M E Y R : O n th e a s s u m e d c o m m o n c o u rs e b a s i s . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a t t h e re w a s s o m e th in g u n la w fu l i n w h a t
. . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
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A D V H O F M E Y R : M in i s te r M d la d la n a d id .
C H A IR P E R S O N : W e l l y o u d id n o t r e fe r t o s u b s e c t i o n 3 o f S e c t i o n 1 3 .
A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
C H A IR P E R S O N : I t s e e m s to m e th a t y o u s h o u ld a l s o h a v e re fe r re d to
i t . D o y o u w a n t t o . . . ( i n te r v e n e s )?
A D V H O F M E Y R : O h . I n d e e d . A p o lo g ie s C h a i r. I d id o m i t i t .
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h re e s a y s :
“ I f t h e p ro b a t i o n a ry a p p o in tm e n t i s n o t c o n f i rm e d in tw o -
i n t e rm s o f s u b s e c t i o n 2 – t h e E x e c u t i v e A u th o r i t y m a y 10
e x te n d th e p e r io d o f t h e p ro b a t io n o r d i s m is s t h e
e m p lo y e e in a c c o rd a n c e w i th t h e L a b o u r R e la t i o n s A c t . ”
Ye s C h a i r. I w a s a b o u t t o c o m p le te m y s u b m is s io n s p ro b a b ly
w i th o u t r e fe r r i n g to t h e m o s t im p o r ta n t s u b s e c t i o n .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : S o . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : I d o a p o lo g i s e fo r t h a t .
C H A IR P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h e n u b o f t h e p o in t t h o u g h C h a i r i s t h a t t h e l e g a l 20
t e r ra in a s i d e n t i f i e d i n t h i s A c t a n d a s w e re a d i t d o e s n o t m a k e i t t h e
c a s e th a t a d e c i s io n o n p ro b a t i o n w h e th e r t o c o n f i rm , e x te n d i t o r a re
n o t e x te n d in g i t d i s m is s a n e m p lo y e e i s a d e c i s io n th a t l i e s o n l y w i t h
t h e P re s id e n t , b u t t h e n i f w e c a n j u s t – re tu rn t o t h e fa c t s t o w h ic h
M r M a n y i c a n … ( in te r v e n e s ) .
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M R M A N Y I : C a n I r e s p o n d to t h i s q u i c k l y C h a i r?
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s . I f y o u w is h to .
M R M A N Y I : J a . F i r s t p o in t I w a n t t o m a k e i s t h a t A d v o c a te H o fm e y r
h a s j u s t – h a s j u s t m is g u id e d h e rs e l f o n h e r a r t i c u la t i o n s . B o th h e r a n d
fo rm e r M in i s te r M d la d la n a a re b o th i n c o r re c t . I n t h e s a m e P u b l i c
S e rv i c e A c t t h a t s h e h a s g i v e n u s C h a i r t h i s i s w h y i t i s im p o r ta n t t o
r e a d th i s t h in g p ro p e r l y. T h i s i s t h e – t a l k in g a b o u t a p p o in tm e n t o n
p ro b a t io n a n d i t i s s a id :
“ I f s o re q u i re d … u p o n … ”
W e a re ta l k in g a b o u t o f a n e m p lo y e e . N o w w h a t s h e s h o u ld 10
h a v e th e n d o n e i s g o to p a g e 3 0 o f t h e s a m e b u n d le – s a m e e v e ry th in g .
O n p a g e 3 0 a n d l o o k a t t h e d e f i n i t i o n o f a n e m p lo y e e a n d k n o w w h o
w a s i t t h a t w e a re ta l k i n g a b o u t . W h e n y o u s a y a n e m p lo y e e a n d I a m
g o in g to re a d i t h e re C h a i r f o r t h e re c o rd .
“A n e m p lo y e e m e a n s a p e rs o n c o n te m p la te d i n S e c t i o n 8
b u t e x c lu d e s a p e rs o n a p p o in te d i n t e rm s o f S e c t i o n
1 2 A . ”
N o w 1 2 A i s H e a d s o f D e p a r tm e n ts w h ic h i s w h a t t h e A p le n i t h in g
i s a b o u t w h ic h i s w h a t w e a re a b o u t . I w a s a H e a d o f D e p a r tm e n t a n d
th i s i s – t h i s t h in g h e re ta l k s t o e m p lo y e e s n o t H e a d o f D e p a r tm e n ts . 20
T h is i s v e ry c le a r. S o b o th M in i s te r M d la d la n a a n d A d v o c a te H o f fm a n
h a v e j u s t n o t u n d e rs to o d P u b l i c S e rv i c e A c t .
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
M R M A N Y I : H e r i n te rp re ta t i o n i s t o ta l l y w ro n g .
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
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M R M A N Y I : To ta l l y w ro n g .
C H A IR P E R S O N : M s H o fm e y r. O f c o u rs e th i s i s a d e b a te th a t c a n
h a p p e n la te r, b u t . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
A D V H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a i r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : Yo u w a n t t o s a y a n y th in g ?
A D V H O F M E Y R : M r M a n y i r e fe r s t o 1 2 A . T h a t i s n o t S e c t i o n 1 2
. . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
A D V H O F M E Y R : I n t e rm s o f w h ic h th e a p p o in tm e n t o f H e a d s o f
D e p a r tm e n t t a k e p la c e . 10
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
A D V H O F M E Y R : I t i s t h e a p p o in tm e n t o f p e rs o n s a n d g ro u n d s o f p o l i c y
c o n s id e ra t i o n s . I n s o fa r a s E x e c u t i v e A u th o r i t i e s a s C a b in e t m a y
d e te rm in e to a p p o in t o n e o r m o re p e rs o n s u n d e r a c o n t ra c t w h e th e r
f u l l t im e o r p a r t - t im e c a p a c i t y. I t i s o n th a t b a s i s t h a t w e s u b m i t i t i s n o t
e x c lu d e d b y th e d e f i n i t i o n th a t a p p o in tm e n ts u n d e r S e c t i o n 1 2 w o u ld
i n c lu d e e m p lo y e e s b u t C h a i r i t ’ s n o t – I a g re e a u s e fu l p la c e fo r M r
M a n y i a n d I d o d e b a te t h e l a w. O u r s u b m is s io n i s t h a t t h e e m p lo y e e s
u n d e r S e c t i o n 1 3 i s b ro a d e n o u g h to i n c lu d e th o s e a p p o in te d u n d e r
S e c t i o n 1 2 a lb e i t t h a t t h e re fe re n c e i s t o S e c t i o n 8 e m p lo y e e s , i t 20
d o e s n ’ t e x c lu d e a s i t d o e s u n d e r S e c t i o n 1 2 A o th e r e m p lo y e e s a n d s o
a n i n te rp re ta t i o n c o n s i s te n t w i t h t h e A c t m u s t b e g i v e n b u t C h a i rp e rs o n
m y p ro p o s a l a t t h i s p o in t i s n o t t o d e ta in u s w i th t h e l a w fu r th e r w e c a n
m a k e th o s e s u b m is s io n s i n d u e c o u rs e a n d n o d o u b t M r M a n y i w i l l h a v e
a n o p p o r tu n i t y t o d o s o . T h e fa c tu a l p o in t o f t h e m a t te r i s t h e
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f o l l o w in g , I u n d e rs ta n d M r M a n y i ’s a n s w e rs t o b e … ( in te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : B e fo re th a t w h e n I s a y, M r M a n y i t h a t t h e l e g a l
i s s u e s c a n b e d e a l t w i t h l a te r, I d o n ’ t m e a n y o u m a y n o t , w h e n y o u g i v e
y o u r a n s w e rs re fe r t o w h a t y o u u n d e rs to o d to b e th e l e g a l p o s i t i o n o f
w h a t y o u u n d e rs ta n d to b e th e l e g a l p o s i t i o n w h ic h i n fo rm e d y o u r –
w h ic h i n fo rm s w h a te v e r y o u s a y o r w h ic h m a y h a v e i n fo rm e d w h a te v e r
d e c i s io n s y o u m a y h a v e ta k e n s o I ’m n o t p re v e n t in g y o u f r o m
a r t i c u la t i n g th o s e , o k a y th a n k y o u .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a i r, i f w e th e n re tu rn to t h e fa c tu a l
p o s i t i o n M r M a n y i , w e w e re d e a l i n g w i th t h e re fe re n c e y o u m a d e a t 10
p a g e 2 9 3 o f E x h ib i t N N 5 to t h e fa c t t h a t t h e M in i s te r h a d f i r e d y o u a n d I
u n d e rs to o d y o u r a n s w e r t o b e a n u n la w fu l f i r i n g i s n o f i r i n g a t a l l , i s
t h a t a f a i r s u m m a ry ?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s th a t ’s c o r re c t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A s a m a t te r o f f a c t d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t y o u w e re f i r e d
i r r e s p e c t i v e o f w h e th e r t h a t w a s a l e g a l l y v a l i d o r i n v a l i d d e c i s io n ?
M R M A N Y I : T h a t ’s y o u r im p o r ta t i o n .
A D V H O F M E Y R : I b e g y o u r p a rd o n ?
M R M A N Y I : T h a t i s y o u r u n d e rs ta n d in g a n d i t ’ s y o u r o p in io n , I n o te
y o u r o p in io n . 20
A D V H O F M E Y R : N o I w a s a s k in g fo r y o u r u n d e rs ta n d in g , I w a n t t o
s e p a ra te th e q u e s t i o n o f w h e th e r t h e d e c i s io n w a s l a w fu l o r u n la w fu l ,
a g a in C h a i r I d o n ’ t w a n t t o g e t i n to a l e g a l d e b a te b u t d e c i s io n s ta k e n
p u rs u a n t t o e x e rc i s e s o f p u b l i c p o w e r p a r t i c u la r l y u n d e r l e g i s la t i o n
e x i s t , i n f a c t a n d m a y i n d e e d b e v a l i d a n d b in d in g u n t i l s e t a s id e b y a
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C o u r t . S o i t ’ s n o t m y i n te n t i o n to g e t i n to t h a t d e b a te w i th M r M a n y i I
w a n t t o u n d e rs ta n d w h a t M r M a n y i u n d e rs to o d th e fa c tu a l p o s i t i o n to b e
a n d th e q u e s t i o n s i s … ( in te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : M a y b e le t ’s p u t t h e q u e s t i o n a l i t t l e d i f f e re n t l y. D o
y o u a c c e p t t h a t M in i s te r M d la d la n a m a d e a d e c i s io n , I t h in k I ’m g o in g
to u s e w h a t y o u – y o u r w o rd in g , m a d e a d e c i s io n to f i r e y o u .
I r r e s p e c t i v e o f w h a t y o u th in k o f t h a t f r o m h i s s id e d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t
h e m a d e s u c h a d e c i s io n o r d o y o u s a y, n o h e m a d e n o s u c h d e c i s io n ?
A n d I l e a v e ro o m fo r t h e fa c t t h a t y o u m ig h t s a y, I d o n ’ t r e c o g n is e th a t
d e c i s io n a s v a l i d l e g a l l y b u t a s f a r a s h e ’s c o n c e rn e d – i t ’ s y o u r 10
u n d e rs ta n d in g th a t a s f a r a s h e ’s c o n c e rn e d h e m a d e a d e c i s io n to f i r e
y o u .
M R M A N Y I : Ye s , y e s C h a i r I t h in k I c a n e v e n b a c k th a t u p b e c a u s e
e v e n th e re c o m m e n d a t io n th a t h e m a k e s b e c a u s e h e th o u g h t t h a t h e ’s
g o t a f i n a l s a y o n th e m a t te r. O n h i s l e t t e r h e s a y s , i f I ’m n o t h a p p y
w i th h i s d e c i s io n I m u s t t a k e t h e m a t te r u p w i th P u b l i c S e rv i c e
B a rg a in in g C o u n c i l w h ic h i s a n o u ts id e b o d y. S o i n h i s m in d ,
i n c o r re c t l y s o , h e th o u g h t h e h a d m e f i r e d .
C H A IR P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d M r M a n y i y o u k n e w th e n a t t h e e n d o f O c to b e r 20
2 0 1 0 th a t h e h a d ta k e n a d e c i s io n to f i r e y o u ?
M R M A N Y I : N o t – l o o k n o t t o c o n f i rm th e p ro b a t i o n th a t i s w h a t I
k n o w.
A D V H O F M E Y R : D e s p i te y o u r e v id e n c e p re v io u s l y t h a t y o u d id n o t
h a v e a n y k n o w le d g e ?
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M R M A N Y I : I n e v e r s a id I n e v e r h a d a n y k n o w le d g e , I s a id I n e v e r
s a w th e l e t t e r.
A D V H O F M E Y R : M r M a n y i i f w e c a n th e n g o – C h a i r a t t h i s p o in t I ’ d
l i k e t o g o to t h e q u e s t i o n o f M r M a n y i ’s s a la r y a n d i t s p a y m e n t . F o r
t h a t p u rp o s e , w e ’d l i k e t o s e e th e d o c u m e n ts t h a t M r M a n y i h a s
b ro u g h t . W e ’ re j u s t b e fo re t h e te a b re a k , m a y I s u g g e s t t h a t w e ta k e a
s l i g h t l y e a r l i e r a d jo u rn m e n t s o th a t w e c a n l o o k a t t h o s e d o c u m e n ts ?
C H A IR P E R S O N : W e c a n d o th a t b u t I j u s t n e e d to s a y, c e r ta in l y f r o m
m y p o in t i t ’ s im p o r ta n t t h a t a s w e d e a l w i t h t h e q u e s t i o n o f M r M a n y i ’s
n o n -c o n f i rm a t io n o f – o r t h e n o n -c o n f i rm a t io n o f h i s p ro b a t i o n o r t h e 10
d is m is s a l a n d th e t r a n s fe r i t ’ s im p o r ta n t t h a t w e d e a l w i t h i t i n a m a n n e r
t h a t l i n k s i t t o w h a t i s r e le v a n t f o r p u rp o s e s o f s e e in g w h e th e r i t t h ro w s
l i g h t o n w h y M r M a s e k o w a s t r a n s fe r re d .
C e r ta in l y f o r m e th a t ’s w h a t I ’m l o o k in g fo r w h e th e r a n y th in g
c o n n e c te d w i th h i s – t h e w i th d ra w a l o f h i s d i s m is s a l a n d th e – h i s
t r a n s fe r w h e th e r t h e re ’s a n y th in g th a t c a n h e lp m e u n d e rs ta n d th e
re a s o n s o f M r M a s e k o ’s t r a n s fe r f r o m G C IS to D P S A a n d m a y b e e v e n
w h o m a d e th e d e c i s io n – w h o i n i t i a te d M r M a s e k o ’s t r a n s fe r. I k n o w
th a t p a r t o f w h a t h e h a s b e e n a s k e d to d e a l w i t h i n a n a f f i d a v i t a l s o
re la te s to M r P h u m la W i l l i a m s ’ e v id e n c e . I ’m n o t s a y in g th a t , t h a t ’s 20
i r r e le v a n t t h a t m a y p ro b a b ly w o u ld b e re le v a n t , I ’m ju s t s a y in g i n s o fa r
a s i t r e la te s t o M r M a s e k o fo r m e th a t ’s w h a t I ’m lo o k in g fo r a n d i t m a y
w e l l b e th a t , h o w e v e r I ’m fa i r o r h o w e v e r I ’m l a w fu l t h e d i s m is s a l m a y
h a v e b e e n , o r t h e fa i l u re t o c o n f i rm th e p ro b a t i o n m a y h a v e b e e n o r
h o w e v e r l a w fu l o r f a i r i t w a s o r v a l i d i t w a s th a t m ig h t n o t t h ro w l i g h t o n
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w h a t I ’m l o o k in g fo r.
S o i n o th e r w o rd s a s fa r a s I ’m c o n c e rn e d th e o n l y re a s o n
l e a v in g o u t t h e i s s u e s re la t i n g to M s W i l l i a m s ’ e v id e n c e , t h e o n l y o th e r
b a s i s t h a t I ’m in te re s te d i n M r M a n y i ’s t r a n s fe r a n d d i s m is s a l a n d
w i th d ra w a l o f d i s m is s a l i s t o s e e w h e th e r i t m ig h t h e lp m e u n d e rs ta n d
h o w o r w h o in i t i a te d th e t r a n s fe r o f M r M a s e k o . O th e rw is e i t ’s n o t
s o m e th in g th a t I ’m p a r t i c u la r l y i n te re s te d i n h i s d i s m is s a l a n d t r a n s fe r
i f i t d o e s n ’ t h e lp m e o n th a t i s s u e .
A D V H O F M E Y R : C h a i r w e ’ re i n d e b te d fo r t h e d i r e c t i o n , i f I m a y j u s t
m a k e o n e o r tw o s u b m is s io n s . 10
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : I t w a s c e r ta in l y n o t m y i n te n t i o n i n t h e c o u rs e o f t h e
e v id e n c e to p la c e s ig n i f i c a n c e o n th e l a w fu ln e s s o r o th e rw is e o f t h a t
d e c i s io n . M r M a n y i , h o w e v e r, r e p e a te d l y i n h i s e v id e n c e h a s s o u g h t t o
d i s ta n c e h im s e l f f r o m a c c e p t in g th a t a d e c i s io n to f i r e h im w a s ta k e n
w i th re fe re n c e to i t ’ s l e g a l v a l i d i t y o r n o t a n d i t w a s a g a in s t t h a t
b a c k d ro p th a t I t h o u g h t i t im p o r ta n t t o t r a v e rs e , t o s o m e e x te n t , t h e
l e g i s la t i v e p ro v i s io n s b u t C h a i rp e rs o n w e a re w e l l a w a re o f y o u r
p a r t i c u la r i n te re s t a n d i f I m a y th e n j u s t c la r i f y.
T h e re a s o n w h y w e h a v e s p e n t a n y t im e o n th e d i s m is s a l a t 20
a l l , t h e n o n -c o n f i rm a t io n o f t h e p ro b a t i o n i s b e c a u s e i t ’s v e ry im p o r ta n t
f o r t h i s C o m m is s io n , i n m y s u b m is s io n to u n d e rs ta n d M r M a n y i ’s s ta te
o f m in d w h e n h e s ta r te d to i n te ra c t w i t h p e o p le l i k e M in i s te r B a lo y i a n d
M in i s te r O l i p h a n t i n t h e l e a d u p to t h e d e c i s io n to w i th d ra w th a t
t e rm in a t i o n a n d th a t h a s b e e n th e b a s i s f o r t h e q u e s t i o n s th i s m o rn in g .
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I t ’ s t a k e n s o m e t im e to g e t c l a r i t y f r o m M r M a n y i a s t o w h a t h i s
u n d e rs ta n d in g o f h i s p o s i t i o n i n t h e D e p a r tm e n t o f L a b o u r w a s w h e n h e
w a s m e e t in g w i th M r C h a b a n e fo r e x a m p le a f e w d a y s b e fo re h e w a s
m o v e d b e c a u s e w h a t I ’ d l i k e a s k M r M a n y i , i n d u e c o u rs e , i s h o w c a n
y o u h a v e a c o n v e rs a t i o n w i th M in i s te r C h a b a n e a b o u t b e in g t r a n s fe r re d
to G C IS a t a p o in t i n t im e w h e re y o u u n d e rs ta n d a d e c i s io n h a s b e e n
ta k e n to f i r e y o u a n d i t ’s i n t h a t c o n te x t t h a t w e p ro b e th o s e a s p e c ts
b e c a u s e th e n C h a i r, o u r h o p e i s t h a t t h ro u g h th i s p ro c e s s w e w i l l g e t
g re a te r c la r i t y a b o u t w h a t h a p p e n e d i n t h o s e s e v e n d a y s .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s , n o , n o th a t ’s f i n e I j u s t w a n te d to h igh l i g h t 10
w h e re m y th in k in g i s b u t a l s o - s o a s l o n g a s I t h in k th e fo c u s re m a in s
i n t e rm s o f w h a t w e a re t r y in g to d o w h e re i t i s s u p p o s e d to t h ro w l i g h t ,
w h e th e r i t t h ro w s l i g h t o r n o t b e c a u s e th e i n te n t i o n i s n o t t o g o i n to a
l o t o f o th e r d e ta i l s b u t I u n d e rs ta n d w h e re y o u a re . M r M a n y i y o u
w a n te d to s a y s o m e th in g .
M R M A N Y I : J a , n o C h a i r I j u s t w a n t t o c lo s e b y s a y in g o n th i s m a t te r I
m a in ta in m y p o in t t h a t e v e n th i s s e c t i o n h e re th e e m p lo y e e re fe r re d to
h e re i s p e o p le o th e r t h a n h e a d s o f d e p a r tm e n ts a s i t w e re . E v e n th e
te rm in a t i o n o f a h e a d o f d e p a r tm e n t , e v e n th e p ro b a t io n o f t h e h e a d o f
d e p a r tm e n t i f w e a re n o t g o in g to d o i t w h ic h h a s th e e f f e c t o f 20
d is m is s a l , i f y o u ’ re n o t d o in g i t , m u s t g e t t h e c o n f i rm a t io n o f t h e
P re s id e n t .
E v e n a t t h a t p o in t t h e M in i s te r d o e s n o t h a v e a u th o r i t y o n h i s
o w n s o th a t ’s t h e p o in t a n d i n c o n c lu s io n I ’ v e b e e n c o n s i s te n t t h a t f r o m
w h e re I w a s s i t t i n g , I m e a n , y e s te rd a y s h e m a d e m e lo o k i n to t h e o th e r
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p a g e h e re w h e re I h a d s a id I w a s p u t o n p re c a u t io n a ry s u s p e n s io n o n c e
p re c a u t i o n a ry s u s p e n s io n tw i c e a n d s p e c ia l l e a v e . S h e re a d th a t p a g e ,
b e c a u s e th a t i n fo rm a t io n w a s i n a l e t t e r w h ic h w a s n o t i n a n a f f i d a v i t
a n d s h e w a n te d m e to s ta te i t h e re o n re c o rd u n d e r o a th a n d I s ta te d i t
o n re c o rd u n d e r o a th t h a t t h a t i s m y p o s i t i o n a n d th a t p o s i t i o n d o e s n o t
c h a n g e a n d th i s m o rn in g , a g a in I r e a d th e D G ’s l e t t e r w h e re I k n o w th a t
i n h e re th e re ’s a C F O w h o i s s a y in g s o m e th in g c o n t ra r y t o w h a t t h e
D G ’s s a y in g b u t h e re ’s a D G , t h e h e a d o f d e p a r tm e n t w h o d id n o t j u s t
s a y th i s b e c a u s e h e ’s a D G h e e v e n s u b m i t t e d th e f i n a n c ia l
. . . ( i n d i s t i n c t ) s ta te m e n t j u s t t o s h o w th a t w h a t h e ’s s a y in g i s j u s t n o t 10
f r o m h i s h e a d , h i s i n fo rm a t io n i s b a s e d o n c re d ib le i n fo rm a t io n .
S o to a n s w e r t h e q u e s t i o n th a t s h e w a n ts t o a s k , t h a t s h e ’s
a l l u d in g to … ( in te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : L e t h e r a s k i t l a te r a n d th e n y o u c a n d e a l w i t h i t .
M R M A N Y I : O k a y.
C H A IR P E R S O N : J a s h e ’s s t i l l g o in g to a s k i t w h e n s h e a s k s th a t y o u
d e a l w i t h i t .
M R M A N Y I : O k a y C h a i r.
A D V H O F M E Y R : C h a i r i f w e m a y j u s t d i s c u s s l o g i s t i c s f o r a m o m e n t
b e c a u s e I u n d e rs ta n d f r o m th e S e c re ta r i a t t h a t t r a v e l a r ra n g e m e n ts 20
h a v e b e e n m a d e fo r M r M a n y i t h i s a f t e rn o o n a n d th e y n e e d to b e a b le
t o m o v e th a t f l i g h t im m in e n t l y i f i t n e e d s to b e m o v e d . I u n d e rs ta n d th e
a r ra n g e m e n ts t o b e th a t h i s f l i g h t i s a t 2 o ’ c lo c k w h ic h w o u ld m e a n th a t
h e w o u ld n e e d to l e a v e h e re a t 1 2 a n d I h a v e n o c o n f i d e n c e th a t w e
w o u ld f i n i s h b y 1 2 .
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I t h i n k t h a t w e w o u ld g o s o m e w h a t b e y o n d th a t , n o t
e x c e s s i v e l y b e y o n d th a t … ( in te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : M a y b e h a l f p a s t tw e lv e ?
A D V H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d s o m e th in g o f t h a t o rd e r C h a i r, i t r e a l l y d o e s
d e p e n d o n th e l e n g th o f t h e a n s w e rs a n d th e e n g a g e m e n t a n d o f c o u rs e
C h a i r y o u m u s t h a v e a fu l l o p p o r tu n i t y t o a s k y o u r q u e s t i o n s b u t I t h in k
i t w o u ld b e p ru d e n t t o s e e k to m o v e th e f l i g h t n o w.
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s M r M a n y i w h a t ’s y o u r v ie w o n … ( in te r v e n e s ) .
M R M A N Y I : N o C h a i r i f w e f i n i s h h a l f p a s t tw e lv e I ’ l l s t i l l g e t i t .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Yo u ’ l l s t i l l g e t i t ? 10
M R M A N Y I : J a b e c a u s e I ’ v e g o t o th e r a r ra n g e m e n ts i n C a p e To w n .
C H A IR P E R S O N : O k a y s o m a y b e th e n l e t ’s t a k e th e s h o r t a d jo u rn m e n t
– l e t ’s t a k e th e te a a d jo u rn m e n t , r e s u m e a t h a l f p a s t a n d th e n l e t ’s g o
f r o m s t ra ig h t a f t e r t h a t a n d s e e h o w – i f c l o s e to h a l f p a s t t h e re ’s a
d i f f i c u l t y l e t ’s t a l k a b o u t i t t h e n .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a i r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : W e a d jo u rn .
R E G IS T R A R : A l l r i s e .
IN Q U IRY A D J O U R N S
IN Q U IRY R E S U M E S 20
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s M s H o fm e y r.
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a i r. I w o u ld l i k e to m o v e i f w e m a y b a c k
to t h e l a w y e r ’s l e t t e r o f t h e 3 r d o f N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 0 th a t i s a t E x h ib i t N N 5
a t p a g e 2 9 7 .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
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A D V H O F M E Y R : M r M a n y i t h i s l e t t e r w a s a d d re s s e d to a M in i s te r –
f o rm e r M in i s te r O l i p h a n t a n d fo rm e r M in i s te r B a lo y i , i s t h a t c o r re c t?
M R M A N Y I : I b e g y o u r p a rd o n y o u s a id p a g e ?
A D V H O F M E Y R : 2 9 7 .
C H A IR P E R S O N : P le a s e s w i t c h o n y o u r m ic ro p h o n e M r M a n y i .
M R M A N Y I : Yo u c a n re p e a t y o u r q u e s t i o n p le a s e ?
A D V H O F M E Y R : O f c o u rs e . I w a s j u s t c o n f i rm in g th a t t h i s w a s a l e t t e r
w r i t t e n b y y o u r a t t o rn e y s to t h e th e n M in i s te r O l i p h a n t a n d M in i s te r
B a lo y i , i s t h a t c o r re c t?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s th a t i s c o r re c t C h a i r. 10
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d i t i s d a te d th e 3 r d o f N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 0 , i s t h a t
c o r re c t?
M R M A N Y I : T h a t i s c o r re c t C h a i r.
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h e M in i s te r o f L a b o u r i s n o w M s O l i p h a n t , i s t h a t
r i g h t?
M R M A N Y I : T h a t i s c o r re c t C h a i r.
A D V H O F M E Y R : D o y o u k n o w w h e n M in i s te r M d la d la n a c e a s e d b e in g
th e M in i s te r o f L a b o u r?
M R M A N Y I : I – o k a y i n f a c t I t h in k I d o . I t c a n o n l y b e o n th e – I b e g
y o u r p a rd o n . I t h in k tw o d a te s C h a i r o n e o f t h e tw o d a te s . E i t h e r o n 20
t h e 2 9 t h o r o n th e 3 0 t h . I n f a c t i f y o u l o o k a t M in i s te r O l i p h a n t ’s
a f f i d a v i t w h e n s h e ta l k s a b o u t t h e 3 0 t h s h e ta l k s a b o u t t h e 3 0 t h i n t h e
m o rn in g o f t h e 3 0 t h . S o g e n e ra l l y h o w i t w o rk s i s t h a t y o u n e v e r
a p p o in t a p e rs o n w i th o u t c re a t i n g a v a c a n c y. S o M r M d la d la n a w o u ld
h a v e b e e n re m o v e d e i t h e r o n th e 3 0 t h e a r l i e r i n t h e m o rn in g o r t h e 2 9 t h
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a s i t w e re . S o a ro u n d th a t s p a c e .
A D V H O F M E Y R : S o a m a t te r o f d a y s b e fo re th i s l e t t e r w a s w r i t t e n ,
c o r re c t?
M R M A N Y I : O n th e – j a .
A D V H O F M E Y R : S o r r y y o u h a v e j u s t b e e n . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
M R M A N Y I : To a d a y.
A D V H O F M E Y R : Yo u h a v e j u s t b e e n ta l k in g a b o u t t h e 3 0 t h a n d w i th o u t
a re fe re n c e to t h e m o n th s o I u n d e rs ta n d y o u to b e m e a n in g th e 2 9 t h o r
t h e 3 0 t h o f O c to b e r 2 0 1 0 w h ic h i s a f e w d a y s b e fo re t h i s l e t t e r, c o r re c t?
M R M A N Y I : I n f a c t C h a i r. A p o lo g ie s M s H o f fm a n fo r a l o n g a n s w e r. I 10
t h i n k i t i s im p o r ta n t t h i s i s s u e o f d a te s j u s t t o s e e th e m a l i c e a c tu a l l y i n
t h e – i n t h i s w h o le th in g . O n th e 2 8 t h o f O c to b e r t h e re i s a D C s i t t i n g
o n th e 2 8 t h o f O c to b e r. I n t h e m id d le o f t h i s t h in g a s I w a s s a y in g
w i th in 3 0 m in u te s o r s o o f – o n th e 2 8 t h o f O c to b e r t h e n th e re i s t h i s
m a jo r a n n o u n c e m e n t t h a t g e ts m a d e in t h e m e e t in g th a t , n o th e
M in i s te r h a s d e c id e d to – n o t t o c o n f i rm th e p ro b a t io n a n d th e l a w y e rs
t h e y m a k e a d e c i s io n th a t t h e re i s n o p o in t c a r r y in g o n a n y fu r th e r w i th
t h i s n o w b e c a u s e th e o b je c t i v e i s g o in g to b e a c h ie v e d d i f f e re n t l y.
W h ic h j u s t s h o w s th a t e v e n th a t D C h a d a p re -d e te rm in e d o u tc o m e .
B u t n o w th a t t h e p re -d e te rm in e d o u tc o m e h a s a l r e a d y b e e n – th e re i s a 20
q u ic k e r w a y to a c h ie v e i t v i a n o t t e rm in a t i o n th e re i s n o p o in t i n d o in g
th i s o n e . N o w th i s i s t h e 2 8 t h w h e n th i s c o m e s . I a m s u re b e c a u s e –
b e c a u s e C h a i rp e rs o n m a y b e s o m e th in g w o u ld h a v e l e a k e d to t h e
M in i s te r b e c a u s e th i s i s a d e c i s io n th a t t o – t h e D e p lo y m e n t C o m m i t te e
o f t h e A N C i s a b o u t f i v e o r s i x p e o p le t h a t a re i n t h a t c o m m i t te e . N o w
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i f o n th e 3 0 t h M in i s te r O l i p h a n t i s o n re c o rd to h a v in g b e e n to ld o n th e
3 0 t h s o s o m e w h e re b e tw e e n th e 2 8 t h a n d th e 3 0 t h s o m e th in g w o u ld h a v e
l e a k e d to t h e M in i s te r t h a t y o u a re a g o n n e r a s i t w e re . A n d th i s i s w h y
h e th e n h u r r i e d l y w ro te t h a t l e t t e r o n th e w h a te v e r b u t d a te d o n th e 2 9 t h
a n d s o o n . S o j a . S o . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : W e l l I t h in k b a s e d o n e v id e n c e f r o m o th e r w i t n e s s e s
th a t I h a v e h e a rd m y s u s p i c io n i s t h a t p ro b a b ly M r M d la d la n a w a s o n e
o f a n u m b e r o f M in i s te r s w h o w e re d ro p p e d f r o m C a b in e t a t t h e e n d o f
O c to b e r 2 0 1 0 .
A D V H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a i r. 10
C H A IR P E R S O N : O n e o f w h o m w a s M s B a rb a ra H o g a n w h o g a v e
e v id e n c e i n t h i s C o m m is s io n .
M R M A N Y I : T h e p re s s a n n o u n c e m e n t w a s d o n e o n th e 3 1 s t o f O c to b e r
C h a i r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A N Y I : I t i s p u b l i c r e c o rd .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A N Y I : B u t t h e d e c i s io n m a k e rs . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A N Y I : W o u ld h a v e s o r t o f m a d e u p th e i r m in d s . 20
C H A IR P E R S O N : M a d e th e i r d e c i s io n b e fo re .
M R M A N Y I : B e fo re t h a t .
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
M R M A N Y I : S o h e w o u ld h a v e g o t w in d o f w h a t i s c o m in g .
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
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M R M A N Y I : S o I w a n t t o p la c e i t h e re C h a i r t h a t th e l e t t e r t h a t w e a re
b u s y s p l i t t i n g h a i r s o n w a s a c tu a l l y e v e n d o n e o n m a l i c e . T h i s i s w h y
th a t h e d id n o t f o l l o w a n y p ro c e s s to a c h ie v e h i s i l l o b je c t i v e s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : M r M a n y i w h a t i n te ra c t i o n s d id y o u h a v e w i th M in i s te r
O l i p h a n t a f t e r s h e to o k o f f i c e ?
M R M A N Y I : S h e i n M in i s te r O l i p h a n t ’s a f f i d a v i t C h a i r s h e m a k e s
re fe re n c e to t h i s q u e s t i o n . W h a te v e r i s i n t h e re I c o n f i rm i t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : M r M a n y i w e w o u ld l i k e t o b e a s s i s te d b y y o u r
e v id e n c e i f w e m a y a s o p p o s e d to – a re y o u s a y in g w h a t s h e s a y s th e re
y o u c o n f i rm a s b e in g a c c u ra te ? 10
M R M A N Y I : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : O k a y b e c a u s e y o u r l e t t e r – y o u r l a w y e r ’s l e t t e r s e e m s
to s a y s o m e th in g a b i t d i f f e re n t . S o i f w e c o u ld g o th e re . T h e l a w y e r ’s
l e t t e r a t 2 9 7 w a s w r i t t e n o n th e 3 r d o f N o v e m b e r, r i g h t? A n d a t p a g e
3 0 1 a t p a ra g ra p h 7 .1 t h e y re c o rd th e re t h a t :
“M r M a n y i h a s a d v i s e d u s th a t h e m e t w i th t h e n e w
M in i s te r o f L a b o u r a n d th e y h a d a c o rd ia l i n te ra c t i o n a n d
M r M a n y i i s e x c i t e d a t t h e p ro s p e c t o f w o rk in g u n d e r t h e
g u id a n c e a n d in s t ru c t i o n s o f M in i s te r O l i p h a n t . ”
N o w I w o u ld l i k e y o u r h e lp o n th a t b e c a u s e M in i s te r O l i p h a n t 20
s a y s s h e m e t w i th y o u th e w e e k a f t e r s h e w a s a p p o in te d o n th e 1 s t o f
N o v e m b e r b u t t h i s l e t t e r s e e m s to re c o rd th a t y o u m e t w i th h e r p r i o r t o
t h e 3 r d o f N o v e m b e r, i s t h a t c o r re c t?
M R M A N Y I : J a – o k a y C h a i r l e t m e ju s t g e t t h e d a te s r i g h t h e re . T h i s
h a p p e n e d m o re th a n 1 0 y e a rs o r s o a g o . A b o u t 1 0 y e a rs a g o . S o d o e s
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M in is te r O l i p h a n t i n h e r a f f i d a v i t m a k e re fe re n c e to t h e a c tu a l d a te t h a t
w e m e t?
A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s s h e g o e s th ro u g h th e c h ro n o lo g y o f t h e w e e k i n
w h ic h s h e w a s a p p o in te d . A n d s h e ta l k s a b o u t t h e f i r s t m e e t in g w i th
y o u h a v in g b e e n a f te r t h a t w e e k a n d s o I a m ju s t t r y in g to g e t c la r i t y
n o w. A g a in s h e m a y h a v e g o t t h e d a te s w ro n g b u t I w a n t y o u r
e v id e n c e . C a n y o u c o n f i rm th a t y o u m e t w i th h e r b e fo re th e 3 r d o f
N o v e m b e r?
M R M A N Y I : I d o n o t k n o w w h e re th i s – I c a n n o t r e c a l l C h a i r. B u t I
r e c a l l v i v i d l y t h e m e e t in g a t S h e ra to n . 10
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
M R M A N Y I : T h i s i s w h e re w e d i s c u s s e d l i k e s h e s a id t h e S h e ra to n
m e e t in g I r e a l l y r e c a l l .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A N Y I : B u t a n y o th e r d i s c u s s io n p r i o r t o t h a t .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : Yo u d o n o t r e c a l l . T h e S h e ra to n m e e t in g i s t h e
s e c o n d o n e th a t M s O l i p h a n t r e fe r s t o . M a y b e ju s t h e lp m e w i th o n e
o th e r t h in g ? I f y o u h a d m e t p r i o r t o t h e 3 r d o f N o v e m b e r i t w o u ld l i k e l y
o n M s O l ip h a n t ’s v e rs io n h a v e h a d to h a v e b e e n o n th e 1 s t o f N o v e m b e r 20
i t s e l f t h e d a y s h e f l e w u p to b e a p p o in te d i n t h e p o s i t i o n a n d s h e f l e w
b a c k d o w n to K Z N b e c a u s e h e r e v id e n c e i s f o r t h e re m a in d e r o f t h a t
w e e k s h e w a s i n K w a Z u lu -N a ta l . D o y o u h a v e a n y re c o l l e c t i o n o f
m e e t in g h e r a t t h e a i r p o r t w h e n s h e c a m e u p o n th e 1 s t ?
M R M A N Y I : O h y e s . O k a y. O h o k a y a l r i g h t o k a y. I r e m e m b e r th a t .
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C H A IR P E R S O N : D o e s i t c o m e b a c k ?
M R M A N Y I : J a .
A D V H O F M E Y R : S u p e r.
M R M A N Y I : I r e m e m b e r t h a t C h a i r. J a i t i s t h a t w h e n y o u s a y m e e t in g
o n e g e ts a f o rm a l s e t t i n g . B u t y e s I d id g o a n d m e e t – I m e t h e r a t t h e
a i r p o r t j a . W e b u m p e d – j a I w e n t t o t h e a i r p o r t a n d j a .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t w a s th e s u b je c t m a t te r o f y o u r m e e t in g ?
M R M A N Y I : W e l l l o o k s h e I t h in k a t t h a t p o in t t h e – i t w a s – w e w e re
j u s t w a lk in g – i t i s n o t l i k e a m e e t in g i t i s j u s t – s h e j u s t g o t o f f t h e
p la n e a n d a l l t h a t . 10
C H A IR P E R S O N : D id y o u b u m p in to e a c h o th e r o r t h e re w a s
. . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
M R M A N Y I : I k n e w th a t s h e w a s g o in g to b e a ro u n d th e a i r p o r t .
C H A IR P E R S O N : O h .
M R M A N Y I : I k n e w th i s .
C H A IR P E R S O N : A n d y o u w a n te d to s e e h e r.
M R M A N Y I : I w a n te d to s e i z e th e o p p o r tu n i t y.
C H A IR P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R M A N Y I : J a I w a n te d to – I h a d th e a g e n d a .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s . 20
M R M A N Y I : I w a n te d to s e i z e th e o p p o r tu n i t y.
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
M R M A N Y I : A n d th e n o b v io u s l y s h e w a s n o n -c o m m i t ta l b u t s h e w a s n o t
h o s t i l e a n d s o o n . S o th e e x c i t e m e n t I w o u ld h a v e e x p re s s e d h e re
w o u ld h a v e b e e n th e s e n t im e n t t h a t I g o t o u t o f t h a t .
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A D V H O F M E Y R : H o w d id y o u k n o w w h e n s h e w o u ld b e a t t h e a i r p o r t?
M R M A N Y I : I d o n o t k n o w h o w I w o u ld h a v e k n o w n b u t I k n e w. I j u s t
d o n o t k n o w h o w.
A D V H O F M E Y R : S o . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
M R M A N Y I : I d o n o t r e m e m b e r h o w. B u t c le a r l y o n th e – j a b u t l o o k I
w o rk f o r P u b l i c S e rv i c e s .
C H A IR P E R S O N : W o u ld h e r f l i g h t a r ra n g e m e n ts n o t h a v e b e e n m a d e b y
y o u r d e p a r tm e n t a n d m a y b e w o u ld y o u n o t h a v e . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
M R M A N Y I : N o I w a s a t t h e D e p a r tm e n t o f L a b o u r t h a t – b u t
. . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) . 10
A D V H O F M E Y R : C h a i r a t t h a t p o in t M r M a n y i w a s n o t a t t h e
D e p a r tm e n t o f L a b o u r.
M R M A N Y I : J a b u t C h a i rp e rs o n .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s b u t . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
M R M A N Y I : I a m p a r t o f s o c ie t y. I h a v e g o t n e tw o rk s . S o i t g o t t o m e .
I h a v e g o t n e tw o rk s .
C H A IR P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V H O F M E Y R : S o r r y s o i t w a s th e n e tw o rk s th a t g a v e y o u th e d e ta i l s
o f w h e n h e r f l i g h t w a s a r r i v i n g ?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s . Ye s th e n e tw o rk s . N o t t h e f l i g h t w a s a r r i v i n g b u t w e 20
k n e w th a t o n th i s d a y th a t w a s g o in g to h a p p e n a n d s o o n . A l o t o f
o th e r M in i s te r s w e re c o m in g s o m a y b e s o m e b o d y e l s e h a d h a d a n o th e r
a g e n d a s a y s , h e y c o m e – I j u s t d o n o t h a v e th e d e ta i l s b u t i t w a s n o t a
b ig d e a l w h ic h I j u s t k n e w s o m e h o w.
A D V H O F M E Y R : S o d id y o u h a v e to w a i t l o n g fo r h e r t o a r r i v e ?
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M R M A N Y I : I d o n o t r e m e m b e r n o w h o w lo n g I w a i te d .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t w a s y o u r p u rp o s e i n m e e t in g h e r a t t h e
a i r p o r t w h e n s h e c a m e u p ?
M R M A N Y I : H ’m m i t i s j u s t t o f i r s t o f a l l C h a i r t o c re a te a re la t i o n s h ip
w i th h e r j u s t t o s h o w th a t I r e a l l y w a n t t o g e t b a c k to w o rk . B e c a u s e a t
t h a t t im e I h a d b e e n a t h o m e fo r a l o n g t im e g e t t i n g p a id a n d s o a n d s o
i t h a s a lw a y s b e e n m y p ro b le m th a t h e re i s g o v e rn m e n t m o n e y b e in g
p a id t o s o m e b o d y s i t t i n g a t h o m e . S o h e re i s a n o p p o r tu n i t y l e t u s g e t
a f r e s h s ta r t . S o I w a n te d to s ta r t a f r e s h s ta r t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h e l a w y e r ’s l e t t e r i n d i c a te s th a t a t t h e s a m e p a g e 10
3 0 1 th a t y o u s u g g e s te d o n th e 3 r d o f N o v e m b e r t h ro u g h y o u r l a w y e rs
t h a t s h e c o n s id e r w i t h d ra w in g th e l e t t e r o f t h e 2 9 t h o f O c to b e r 2 0 1 0 a n d
re - i n s ta t i n g y o u a s th e D i re c to r -G e n e ra l o f t h e D e p a r tm e n t o f L a b o u r
w i th im m e d ia te e f f e c t . I s t h a t w h a t y o u d i s c u s s e d w i th h e r?
M R M A N Y I : I w i l l b e l y i n g to y o u C h a i r. E v e n l a s t n ig h t b e c a u s e th e re
w e re – I g o t f i v e b u n d le s to g o th ro u g h . I d id n o t r e a d th i s l e t t e r a n d
m a k e s o m e re c o l l e c t i o n . I h o n e s t l y d o n o t r e m e m b e r t h e d e ta i l s I j u s t
r e m e m b e r t h e s e n t im e n t o f w h y I m e t h e r. B u t t h e n i t t y g r i t t y f u l l s to p
a n d c o m m a s I d o n o t r e m e m b e r.
A D V H O F M E Y R : I s i t f a i r t h o u g h o n th e b a s i s o f w h a t i s r e c o rd e d i n 20
t h e l e t t e r t h a t y o u re c o g n is e th e n e e d fo r t h e te rm in a t i o n l e t t e r t o b e
w i th d ra w n ?
M R M A N Y I : N o , n o . W h a t I k n e w i s t h a t I w a s o n p re c a u t i o n a ry
s u s p e n s io n a n d y o u h a v e to g e t r e - i n s ta te d f r o m s u s p e n s io n . S o i f I
h a d s a id t h a t i t w o u ld b e i n l i n e w i th m y a g e n d a . S o m y u n d e rs ta n d in g
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o f b e in g s u s p e n d e d i s t h a t y o u c a n n o t j u s t n o w d e c id e fo r y o u rs e l f t h a t
y o u a re j u s t g o in g to g o b a c k . S o m e b o d y m u s t a u th o r i s e y o u c o m in g
b a c k f r o m s u s p e n s io n . S o to re - i n s ta te f r o m s u s p e n s io n i s a n o th e r re -
i n s ta te m e n t f r o m p re c a u t i o n a ry s u s p e n s io n .
A D V H O F M E Y R : M r M a n y i y o u h a v e p re v io u s l y c o n f i rm e d to d a y th a t
y o u d o a c c e p t t h a t M r M d la d la n a to o k a d e c i s io n to f i r e y o u . I s u g g e s t
t h a t t h a t a p p re c ia t i o n i s c o n s i s te n t w i th t h e u n d e rs ta n d in g th a t i s
r e f l e c te d i n t h e l e t t e r w h ic h i s t h a t t h a t p o s i t i o n h a d to b e re v e rs e d b y
s o m e o n e . D o y o u a c c e p t t h a t?
M R M A N Y I : N o I d o n o t a c c e p t t h a t . W h a t I h a d s a id e a r l i e r C h a i r 10
w h e n th e C h a i r g a v e a g o o d fo rm u la t i o n i s t o a c c e p t t h e fo rm u la t i o n o f
t h e C h a i r t h a t t h a t w a s w h a t M r M d la d la n a ’s h e a d . N o t t h a t I e v e r
a c c e p te d th e t r u th o f i t o r t h e fa c tu a l b a s i s o f i t e t c e te ra o f i t . I n e v e r
a c c e p te d th a t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : M r M a n y i I d o n o t w a n t t o h a v e to b e la b o u r p o in t s
u n n e c e s s a r i l y. I s i t n o t y o u r e v id e n c e th a t y o u u n d e rs to o d th a t M in i s te r
M d la d la n a h a d ta k e n a d e c i s io n to f i r e y o u ?
M R M A N Y I : I r e p e a t C h a i r. M r M d la d la n a h a s g o t n o a u th o r i t y t o f i r e
m e . H e m ig h t h a v e h a d – i t i s t h a t f o rm u la t i o n – b a c k to y o u r
f o rm u la t i o n C h a i r w e a re g o in g to g o a ro u n d i n c i r c l e s . 20
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s I t h in k y o u r a n s w e r b a s e d o n w h a t y o u s a id w h e n
I m a d e th a t f o rm u la t i o n . Yo u a n s w e r w o u ld b e th a t y o u a c c e p te d th a t
M r M d la d la n a h a d m a d e a d e c i s io n to f i r e y o u b u t f r o m y o u r p o in t o f
v i e w y o u d id n o t r e c o g n is e a s I u n d e rs ta n d i t .
M R M A N Y I : Ye s .
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C H A IR P E R S O N : D id n o t r e c o g n is e h im a s h a v in g p o w e r t o f i r e y o u .
M R M A N Y I : Ye s C h a i r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : I s t h a t r i g h t?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s C h a i r. A n d w e m u s t s e p a ra te t h a t f r o m s a y in g
b e c a u s e I k n o w h i s a g e n d a a n d th e re fo r I a c c e p t h i s a g e n d a . I d o n o t
a c c e p t h i s a g e n d a . H i s a g e n d a i s t o f i r e m e . I a c c e p t t h a t . I a c c e p t
t h a t f r o m w h e re h e s i t s h e i s f i r i n g m e . B u t I d o n o t a c c e p t t h a t t h a t i f
a f a c tu a l p o s i t i o n .
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
A D V H O F M E Y R : D o y o u a c c e p t t h a t s o m e th in g h a d to b e d o n e to b r i n g 10
y o u b a c k i n to t h e D e p a r tm e n t o f L a b o u r?
M R M A N Y I : I w a s o n p re c a u t i o n a ry s u s p e n s io n . S o to g o f r o m
p re c a u t io n a ry s u s p e n s io n b a c k y e s s o m e th in g m u s t h a p p e n .
A D V H O F M E Y R : S o w h e n M in i s te r O l i p h a n t w i th d re w y o u r t e rm in a t i o n
a n d p la c e d y o u o n s p e c ia l l e a v e d id s h e n o t d o s o m e th in g th a t w a s
c o m p e te n t?
M R M A N Y I : T h e – n o s h e re g u la r i s e d s o m e th in g th a t w a s i r r e g u la r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : W e l l I a m s o r r y. I a m n o t s u re M s H o fm e y r w h e th e r
y o u s h o u ld n o t t r y a n d f i n d a n o th e r m o re l a y p e rs o n f r i e n d ly t e rm th a n
c o m p e te n t . 20
A D V H O F M E Y R : L e g a l n e u t ra l I s u s p e c t i n d e e d . C e r ta in l y C h a i r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : B e c a u s e th a t m ig h t b e v e ry l e g a l .
A D V H O F M E Y R : C e r ta in l y.
C H A IR P E R S O N : B u t – s o I j u s t w a n t t o m a k e s u re th a t M r M a n y i
u n d e rs ta n d s w h a te v e r t h e q u e s t i o n i s .
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A D V H O F M E Y R : O f c o u rs e C h a i r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : T h a t y o u w a n t t o p u t t o h e r – t o h im . I t m a y b e th a t
y o u m ig h t s t ru g g le to f i n d a n o th e r t e rm I d o n o t k n o w b u t I j u s t w a n t t o
m a k e s u re th a t h e w i l l u n d e rs ta n d y o u r q u e s t i o n .
A D V H O F M E Y R : W h e n y o u w e re e n g a g in g – I w i l l g e t t h e re i n a
m o m e n t i f I M a y C h a i r. I w i l l g o b a c k a b i t i n t e rm s o f t h e d i s c u s s io n s
w i th M s O l i p h a n t . S o y o u h a v e c o n f i rm e d th a t t h e re w a s th e
e n g a g e m e n t a t t h e a i r p o r t o n th e 1 s t o f N o v e m b e r. I u n d e rs ta n d y o u to
a l s o h a v e c o n f i rm e d th e m e e t in g a t t h e S h e ra to n . I s t h a t c o r re c t?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s c o r re c t . 10
A D V H O F M E Y R : W h a t w a s th e s u b je c t m a t te r o f t h a t m e e t in g ?
M R M A N Y I : J a a t t h e S h e ra to n I w e n t t h e re to d i s c u s s m y s i t u a t i o n a t
t h e S h e ra to n w h ic h c o l l o q u ia l l y i s d e s c r ib e d a s d i s m is s a l a n d s o o n
th a t t h i s i s u n la w fu l e t c e te ra a n d a l l o f t h a t . S o w e d i s c u s s e d th a t i n
t h e re to s a y th i s i s u n la w fu l a n d c a n s h e p le a s e – b e c a u s e m y b ig g e s t
p ro b le m C h a i r t o b e h o n e s t – m y b ig g e s t , b ig g e s t p ro b le m i s t h a t I
k n e w th a t I w o u ld w in t h i s c a s e i n c o u r t . I w o u ld w in t h i s c a s e i n c o u r t .
A n d th a t m y b ig g e s t p ro b le m w a s th a t a t t h a t t im e w e w e re v e ry – w e
w e re d r i v i n g t r a n s fo rm a t io n v e ry h a rd . N o w c a n y o u im a g in e a M in i s te r
o f L a b o u r l o s in g a l a b o u r m a t te r i n c o u r t? W h a t – h o w e l s e c a n 20
g o v e rn m e n t g o v e rn g o in g fo rw a rd o n l a b o u r i s s u e s . S o th a t w a s m y
p re d ic a m e n t C h a i rp e rs o n . S o j a I c o n t i n u e to i n s i s t t h a t t h a t w a s a n
u n la w fu l t h in g .
A D V H O F M E Y R : D id y o u d i s c u s s a p p e a l i n g th e d e c i s io n w i th h e r?
M R M A N Y I : T h e w h a t s o r r y ?
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A D V H O F M E Y R : D id y o u d i s c u s s a p p e a l i n g M in i s te r M d la d la n a ’s
d e c i s io n w i th h e r?
M R M A N Y I : 2 0 1 0 I d o n o t r e m e m b e r b u t I – l o o k C h a i r I c a n n o t p re te n d
th a t I h a v e n o t r e a d h e r a f f i d a v i t .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R M A N Y I : I w o u ld b e l y i n g .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A N Y I : I n h e r a f f i d a v i t s h e s a y s s h e a d v i s e d m e to a p p e a l . S o –
t o a p p e a l t o D P S A . Yo u s e e I t h in k i t i s im p o r ta n t a l s o C h a i r t o d ra w
th e d i s t i n c t i o n a n d w e m u s t u n d e rs ta n d th e p o in t o f d e p a r tu re . I f o n e 10
M in is te r s a y s g o to D P S A th a t i s a n i n te rn a l p ro c e s s . T h a t M in i s te r
u n d e rs ta n d s th e l a w. U n d e rs ta n d s th a t t h i s t h in g i s s t i l l w i t h in u s i n t h e
g o v e rn m e n t . B u t i f a n o th e r M in i s te r w h o i s m is g u id e d i s s a y in g , g o to
P – t o t h e B a rg a in in g C o u n c i l w h ic h i s o u ts id e th a t p e rs o n i s a l r e a d y
th in k in g th a t h i s d e c i s io n i s f i n a l . S o M in i s te r O l i p h a n t k n e w th a t t h e
P re s id e n t w o rk s th ro u g h th e D P S A M in i s te r a n d a l l o f t h a t . S o re -
d e te rm in a t i o n m u s t i n c lu d e th e D P S A M in i s te r w i t h t h e P re s id e n t . S o
th a t i s w h y s h e a d v i s e d m e l i k e t h a t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : W e l l M in i s te r O l i p h a n t ’s v e rs io n o n h e r a f f i d a v i t i s
t h a t y o u w i l l f i n d t h i s M r M a n y i i n t h e b u n d le N N 3 in t h e s a m e f i l e . I t i s 20
u n d e r t h e s a m e ta b . I t i s u n d e r t a b 3 i n t h e f i l e a t p a g e 4 . Yo u c a n
h a v e i t i n f r o n t o f y o u b u t I a m in te n d in g to re a d i t s o y o u c an a l s o g i v e
m e y o u r a n s w e r i n r e la t i o n to i t . W h e n M s O l ip h a n t i n d i c a te s th e f i r s t
i n te ra c t i o n s h e h a d w i th y o u s h e s a y s :
“ I t h e n re c e i v e d a c a l l f r o m M in i s te r M a n y i w h o
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c o n g ra tu la te d m e o n m y a p p o in tm e n t a n d i n fo rm e d m e
th a t h e w a s i n te n d in g to a p p e a l t h e d e c i s io n to d i s m is s
h im o r t a k e th e D e p a r tm e n t o f L a b o u r t o c o u r t o v e r h i s
d i s m is s a l . ”
S h e s u g g e s ts t h a t i n t h a t p a ra g ra p h i t w a s y o u w h o in fo rm e d
h e r n o t t h a t s h e a d v i s e d y o u to a p p e a l . D o y o u s a y th a t w h a t s h e h a s
re f l e c te d th e re i s w ro n g ?
M R M A N Y I : I w a s n o t f o l l o w in g y o u w h e n y o u w e re re a d in g .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g ie s .
M R M A N Y I : I h a v e g o t . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) . 10
A D V H O F M E Y R : U n d e r t a b 3 a t p a g e 4 . M r M a n y i i t i s a t p a rag ra p h
11 .
M R M A N Y I : P a g e 4 . Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s . P a ra g ra p h 11 a t t h a t p a g e i t i s s o r t o f a t h i r d o f
t h e w a y d o w n . S h e i s t a l k i n g a b o u t t h e w e e k a f t e r h e r a p p o in tm e n t a n d
th e n s h e s a y s a t h i r d o f t h e w a y d o w n :
“ I t h e n re c e i v e d a c a l l f r o m M in i s te r M a n y i w h o
c o n g ra tu la te d m e o n m y a p p o in tm e n t a n d i n fo rm e d m e
th a t h e w a s i n te n d in g to a p p e a l t h e d e c i s io n to d i s m is s
h im o r t a k e th e D e p a r tm e n t o f L a b o u r t o c o u r t o v e r h i s 20
d is m is s a l . ”
A n d I w h a t I w a n te d to u n d e rs ta n d f r o m y o u i s i n y o u r e v id e n c e
a m o m e n t a g o y o u s a id i n t h e i n te ra c t i o n w i th h e r s h e h a d p ro p o s e d
a p p e a l i n g . H e re s h e s e e m s to i n d i c a te i t c a m e f ro m y o u . D o y o u
d i s p u te w h a t s h e s a y s th e re ?
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M R M A N Y I : N o I d o n o t b e c a u s e th i s – w h a t i t m e a n s i n s u b s ta n c e i s
t h a t I a m n o t g o in g to f o ld m y a rm s . S o y o u c o u ld p u t a l o n g – a s t r o n g
l e g a l j a rg o n o f w h a t a p p e a l m e a n s a n d s o o n b u t s t r i c t l y s p e a k in g th e
l o n g a n d th e s h o r t o f t h i s w a s th a t I a m n o t g o in g to j u s t a c c e p t t h i s
a n d fo ld m y a rm s . S o I w i l l t a k e i t u p s o m e h o w. S o th i s i s c o r re c t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d i n t h o s e i n te ra c t i o n s w i th M in i s te r O l i p h a n t d id
s h e i n d i c a te to y o u th a t s h e d id n o t w a n t y o u to re tu rn t o t h e
D e p a r tm e n t o f L a b o u r?
M R M A N Y I : I d o n o t r e m e m b e r t h a t d i s c u s s io n .
A D V H O F M E Y R : Yo u h a v e s e e n h e r a f f i d a v i t i n w h ic h s h e i n d i c a te s 10
t h a t s h e d id n o t w a n t y o u to re tu rn t o t h e D e p a r tm e n t o f L a b o u r.
M R M A N Y I : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : I s t h a t c o r re c t? B u t y o u d o n o t r e c a l l h e r c o n v e y in g
th a t t o y o u a t a l l ?
M R M A N Y I : N o .
A D V H O F M E Y R : S o th e re w e re n o d i s c u s s io n s a b o u t h o w y o u c o u ld b e
b ro u g h t b a c k i n to t h e D e p a r tm e n t i f i t w a s a s i t u a t i o n w h ic h s h e d id n o t
w a n t y o u th e re a s t h e D i re c to r -G e n e ra l .
M R M A N Y I : N o . I d o n o t r e m e m b e r a n y o f t h a t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : Yo u a l s o h a d i n te ra c t i o n s w i th M in i s te r B a lo y i i n t h i s 20
p e r io d ?
M R M A N Y I : O h j a n u m e ro u s t im e s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : I s t h a t c o r re c t?
M R M A N Y I : J a . N u m e ro u s t im e s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : D id y o u h a v e a n y i n te ra c t i o n s w i th f o rm e r P re s id e n t
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Z u m a a b o u t y o u r p o s i t i o n ?
M R M A N Y I : I p ro b a b ly w o u ld h a v e w r i t t e n to t h e P re s id e n t h ig h l i g h t i n g
i s s u e s a n d s e e k in g h i s i n te r v e n t i o n . J a .
A D V H O F M E Y R : M r M a n y i t h a t c e r ta in l y b o rn e o u t t o s o m e e x te n t b y
o n e o f t h e d o c u m e n ts t h a t w e re c e i v e d f r o m D P S A a n d I w o u ld l i k e t o
j u s t t a k e y o u to i t i f I m a y ?
M R M A N Y I : H e w a s m y e m p lo y e r a f t e r a l l s o I h a d to t a l k t o m y
e m p lo y e r.
A D V H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . O f c o u rs e y o u r c o n t ra c t o f e m p lo y m e n t i s n o t
c o n c lu d e d w i th t h e P re s id e n t , i s i t ? 10
M R M A N Y I : B u t i t i s h i s a u th o r i t y. H e – h e w o rk s w i th t h e D P S A i t i s
h i s a u th o r i t y. T h e y w o rk u n d e r h i s a u th o r i t y.
A D V H O F M E Y R : M r M a n y i i f y o u g o i n E x h ib i t N N 5 to p a g e 2 0 8 .
M R M A N Y I : J a .
A D V H O F M E Y R : H a v e y o u e v e r s e e n th i s d o c u m e n t? I t i s a t h re e
p a g e d o c u m e n t w h ic h u n fo r tu n a te l y o m i t s e v e ry a l t e rn a te p a g e . H a v e
y o u s e e n th i s d o c u m e n t b e fo re ?
M R M A N Y I : H a v e I s e e n i t b e fo re ? N o I s a w i t l a s t n ig h t w i t h p a r t o f
t h e s e th in g s th a t y o u g a v e m e la s t n ig h t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u M r M a n y i . C h a i r j u s t t o e x p la in t h i s 20
s i t u a t i o n w i th t h e s e d o c u m e n ts . T h e re h a v e b e e n e f fo r t s o n th e p a r t o f
t h e C o m m is s io n s in c e J a n u a ry o f t h i s y e a r t o o b ta in t h e d i s c ip l i n a ry f i l e
o f M r M a n y i . A n d a s m a t te r s c u r re n t l y s ta n d i t h a s n e v e r b e e n fo u n d in
a n y o f t h e D e p a r tm e n ts w h o h a v e b e e n a p p ro a c h e d . W h a t w a s fo u n d
b y D P S A w a s a s e t o f d o c u m e n ts i n a l e g a l f i l e w i t h in t h e D e p a r tm e n t
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a n d th o s e a re t h e d o c u m e n ts t h a t w e a re w o rk in g w i th a t t h e m o m e n t .
I t w a s im p o r ta n t w h e n o n e f i r s t s e e s th e s e p a g e s to e s ta b l i s h w h e th e r
t h e re i s j u s t a p h o to c o p y in g e r ro r t h a t t h e re w e re d o u b le s id e d p a g e s
th a t t h e n w e re n o t p h o to c o p ie d . T h e a f f i d a v i t o f D P S A in d i c a te s th a t
t h i s i s t h e f i l e i n i t s t o ta l i t y t h a t w a s fo u n d a n d h a s b e e n g i v e n to t h e
C o m m is s io n . I u n d e rs ta n d f r o m M r M a n y i t h a t h e i s – d o e s n o t k n o w o f
t h i s d o c u m e n t . I t i s a d o c u m e n t a t p a g e 2 1 0 w h ic h a p p e a rs t o h a v e
b e e n a u th o re d o r i n te n d e d to b e s ig n e d b y M r B a lo y i a n d s o i t i s a
m a t te r t h a t w e w i l l p i c k u p w i th M r B a lo y i o n . B u t w h a t I a m in te re s te d
i n i s w h a t i s r e c o rd e d i n t h e f i r s t p a ra g ra p h i n o rd e r t o a s k M r M a n y i 10
a b o u t i t . B e c a u s e a t p a ra g ra p h 1 .1 o n p a g e 2 0 8 M r M a n y i t h e fo l l o w in g
i s r e c o rd e d :
“T h e o f f i c e o f t h e P re s id e n t o f t h e R e p u b l i c o f S o u th
A f r i c a a s k e d m e to i n te r v e n e i n t h e m a t te r i n vo l v in g th e
fo rm e r D i re c to r -G e n e ra l o f t h e D e p a r tm e n t o f L a b o u r M r
J M a n y i , M r M a n y i . T h e i s s u e i n t h i s c a s e i s t h a t t h e
fo rm e r M in i s te r o f L a b o u r – t h e fo rm e r M in i s te r –
d e c id e d n o t t o c o n f i rm M r M a n y i ’s p e rm a n e n t
a p p o in tm e n t a s D i re c to r -G e n e ra l f o l l o w in g h i s p ro b a t i o n
e f f e c t i v e l y t e rm in a t i n g h i s s e rv i c e s o n 3 0 N o v e m b e r 20
2 0 1 0 . ”
W e re y o u a w a re th a t t h e o f f i c e o f t h e P re s id e n t h a d m a d e a n
a p p ro a c h to M in i s te r B a lo y i t o i n te r v e n e in t h i s m a t te r?
M R M A N Y I : N o .
A D V H O F M E Y R : N o . B u t y o u d o c o n f i rm th a t y o u ra i s e d th e i s s u e w i th
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f o rm e r P re s id e n t Z u m a ?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s I – t h e re i s n o b o d y I d id n o t r a i s e i t w i t h . I r a i s e d i t
w i t h e v e ry o n e .
A D V H O F M E Y R : R ig h t . A n d th e n I w o u ld l i k e to t a k e y o u to a f u r th e r
l e t t e r i n t h e s a m e b u n d le a t p a g e 2 1 6 . M r M a n y i t h i s a pp e a rs t o b e a
l e t t e r b e tw e e n – i f y o u g o o v e r t h e p a g e to 2 1 7 M r B a lo y i a n d b a c k a t
t h e f i r s t p a g e M s O l i p h a n t . H a v e y o u s e e n th i s l e t t e r b e fo re ?
M R M A N Y I : N o .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . I c e r ta in l y i n te n d to p ro b e i t w i t h M r
B a lo y i w h e n h e c o m e s to g i v e e v id e n c e C h a i r. B u t w h a t I a m in te re s te d 10
i n M r M a n y i i s w h a t r e c o rd s a t p a ra g ra p h 3 o n p a g e 2 1 7 . B e c a u s e i t i s
r e le v a n t t o u s u n d e rs ta n d in g w h a t M in i s te r O l i p h a n t w a s t h in k in g a b o u t
a n d y o u r e n g a g e m e n ts w i th h e r i n s o fa r a s b r i n g in g y o u b a c k i n to t h e
D e p a r tm e n t o f L a b o u r i s c o n c e rn e d ? Yo u w i l l s e e a t p a ra g ra p h 3 t h e re
M r B a lo y i r e c o rd s th e fo l l o w in g : H e s a y :
“ I n l i g h t o f m y o b s e rv a t i o n s i n p a ra g ra p h 2 a b o v e ”
A n d j u s t t o – f o r c o m p le te n e s s h e c o n c lu d e s i n t h a t f o rm e r
p a ra g ra p h th a t M in i s te r M d la d a la n a d id n o t h a v e th e re q u is i t e a u th o r i t y
w h e n h e te rm in a te d y o u r s e rv i c e s . H e s a y s to M in i s te r O l i p h a n t .
“Yo u a re a d v i s e d to : 20
a . W i th d ra w th e fo rm e r M in i s te r ’s l e t t e r w h ic h
te rm in a te d th e D G s s e rv i c e s
b . E x te n d th e D G ’s p ro b a t i o n fo r a n o th e r f o u r m o n th s .
c . P la c e h im o n tw o w e e k s s p e c ia l l e a v e to a l l o w u s
s p a c e to f i n d a s u i t a b le s o lu t i o n to t h i s m a t te r.
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d . D u r in g th i s tw o w e e k p e r io d d e c id e w h e th e r o r n o t t o
p u rs u e th e m is c o n d u c t c h a rg e s a g a in s t t h e D G . ”
D o y o u s e e th a t?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : M r M a n y i d id y o u e v e r d i s c u s s th e m is c o n d u c t
c h a rg e s a g a in s t y o u w i th M in i s te r O l i p h a n t?
M R M A N Y I : I t h i n k o n th e m e e t in g a t S h e ra to n C h a i rp e rs o n i f I
r e m e m b e r. B e c a u s e I w a n te d h e r t o h a v e i n fo rm a t io n . I w o u ld h a v e
g o n e to h e r w i t h a l i s t o f t h e s e a l l e g a t i o n s to s a y th i s i s w h a t I a m
b e in g a c c u s e d o f a n d th i s i s m y re s p o n s e to t h e s e a c c u s a t i o n s . J a s o 10
a c c u s a t io n s th ro w c h a rg e s i n d e e d . I d i s c u s s e d w i th h e r.
A D V H O F M E Y R : N o w a re y o u a w a re t h a t s h e w i th d re w th e te rm in a t i o n
o f y o u r e m p lo y m e n t a s D G o n th e 3 1 s t o f J a n u a ry 2 0 11 ?
M R M A N Y I : J a . I s a w th a t i n t h e a f f i d a v i t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : D id y o u e v e r r e c e i v e th e l e t t e r i n t e rm s o f w h ic h s h e
m a d e th a t d e c i s io n ?
M R M A N Y I : I h a v e s e e n th e l e t t e r h e re C h a i r. Yo u k n o w i f y o u l o o k a t
t h e a d d re s s e s o f t h e l e t t e r s t h e y a re a l l p r i v a te b a g s a n d th e y h a v e
b e e n s e n t I t h in k t o t h e D e p a r tm e n t . S o I a c tu a l l y n e v e r s a w th e s e
l e t t e r s . T h e y a re q u i t e – t h e re i s a n o th e r o n e a g a in a n d s o o n , b u t I 20
h a v e n e v e r r e c e i v e d a n y l e t t e r f r o m a n y o n e fo r t h a t m a t te r.
T h e o n l y l e t t e r I r e c e i v e d w a s p ro b a b ly b e c a u s e I w a s i n t h e
D e p a r tm e n t i t s e l f . Wa s th e G C IS , b u t a l l t h e s e o th e r o n e s n o t t h a t I d id
n o t k n o w a b o u t t h e c o n te n ts o f t h e m in t h e fu l l n e s s o f t im e , b u t I n e v e r
r e c e i v e d th e a c tu a l p h y s i c a l c o p y o f t h e l e t t e r.
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A D V H O F M E Y R : W h e n d id y o u k n o w o f t h e c o n te n ts o f t h i s l e t t e r?
M R M A N Y I : H ’m m .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Yo u m e a n th e l e t t e r o f w i t h d ra w a l?
A D V H O F M E Y R : O f w i t h d ra w a l . I n d e e d C h a i r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s . M a y b e w e m u s t j u s t i n d i c a te – i f I r e c a l l
c o r re c t l y t h a t l e t t e r i s a d d re s s e d to M r M a n y i . I s t h a t r i g h t?
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a t i s r i g h t .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : I f w e c a n j u s t g e t i t u p C h a i r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : J a . 10
A D V H O F M E Y R : S o w e c a n a l l b e l o o k in g a t i t . Yo u w i l l f i n d i t i n N N 5
a t – i f y o u w i l l g i v e a m o m e n t . A t p a g e 4 1 .
M R M A N Y I : H ’m m .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a t i s e x h ib i t N N 5 p a g e 4 1 .
M R M A N Y I : J a . S o I c a n n o t r e c a l l e x a c t l y. I r e a l l y c a n n o t r e c a l l
e x a c t l y w h e n I k n e w a b o u t i t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : O k a y. S o . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s . I j u s t w a n te d to f o l l o w u p o n th e i s s u e o f
. . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
A D V H O F M E Y R : H ’m m . 20
C H A IR P E R S O N : T h e a d d re s s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : H ’m m .
C H A IR P E R S O N : S o w a s th e p o in t y o u w e re m a k in g M r M a n y i w a s th a t
t h a t l e t t e r a n d m a y b e a n o th e r o n e th a t y o u h a v e i n m in d . T h e a d d re s s
u s e d w a s a D e p a r tm e n t o f L a b o u r a d d re s s ?
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M R M A N Y I : Ye s C h a i r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : A n d b e c a u s e y o u w e re n o t a t t h e D e p a r tm e n t o f
L a b o u r y o u w e re o n s u s p e n s io n o r . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
M R M A N Y I : J a .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Yo u h a d b e e n d i s m is s e d . W h a te v e r t h e p o s i t i o n i s .
T h a t i s n o t t h e a d d re s s th a t s h o u ld h a v e b e e n u s e d i f t he
. . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
M R M A N Y I : Ye s C h a i r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : L e t t e r w a s to re a c h y o u ?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s C h a i r. 10
C H A IR P E R S O N : O h . O k a y.
A D V H O F M E Y R : M in i s te r O l i p h a n t – f o rm e r M in i s te r O l i p h a n t , i n h e r
a f f i d a v i t s a y s i t w a s y o u r r e s p o n s ib i l i t y t o s u b m i t t h i s l e t t e r t o t h e
H u m a n R e s o u rc e s D e p a r tm e n t . D id s h e h a v e a n y i n te ra c t i o n s w i th y o u
a b o u t t h a t?
M R M A N Y I : Yo h . I d o n o t r e m e m b e r, b u t I c a n s a y th i s f o r a f a c t C h a i r
t h a t I h a v e n e v e r h a d a n y fo rm a l e n g a g e m e n t w i t h t h e H R o f t h e
D e p a r tm e n t o f L a b o u r. S in c e th i s m a t te r w a s b re w in g .
A D V H O F M E Y R : S o y o u s a id a m o m e n t a g o th a t i n t h e fu l l n e s s o f t im e
y o u c a m e to l e a rn o f t h e c o n te n ts o f t h e l e t t e r. 20
M R M A N Y I : J a .
A D V H O F M E Y R : I m ig h t h a v e m is s e d y o u r a n s w e r t o t h a t . W h e n d id
y o u c o m e in t h e fu l l n e s s o f t im e to l e a rn o f t h e c o n te n ts o f t h i s l e t t e r?
M R M A N Y I : I s a id I d id n o t r e c a l l t h a t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : Yo u d id n o t r e c a l l ?
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M R M A N Y I : J a .
A D V H O F M E Y R : C o u ld y o u g i v e u s a n o rd e r o f m a g n i tu d e . I a m
c e r ta in l y n o t a s k in g fo r a d a y, b u t d o y o u th in k y o u l e a rn t a b o u t i t i n
F e b ru a ry 2 0 11 ? B e y o n d th a t .
M R M A N Y I : N o . I t h in k - I r e a l l y d o n o t w a n t t o b e p u t u n d e r p re s s u re
. . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
A D V H O F M E Y R : S u re .
M R M A N Y I : A n d s a y th e w ro n g th in g s . I d o n o t r e c a l l .
A D V H O F M E Y R : N o . T h a t i s a b s o lu te l y f a i r. M r M a n y i t h e n w h e n y o u
w e re m e e t in g w i th M in i s te r C h a b a n e e i t h e r o n th e p re c e d in g T h u rs d a y 10
o r F r id a y o r M o n d a y o f t h e w e e k o f t h e 2 n d o f F e b ru a ry. Yo u d id n o t
k n o w th a t y o u h a d b e e n b ro u g h t b a c k i n to t h e D e p a r tm e n t o f L a b o u r.
D id y o u ?
M R M A N Y I : D e f i n i t e l y – n o I d id n o t k n o w.
A D V H O F M E Y R : S o . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
M R M A N Y I : I j u s t t h o u g h t I w a s s t i l l o n p re c a u t i o n a ry s u s p e n s io n .
A D V H O F M E Y R : M r M a n y i y o u r l e t t e r s i n N o v e m b e r m a k e i t a b s o lu te l y
c le a r y o u k n e w th a t y o u h a d b e e n f i r e d .
M R M A N Y I : N o , n o C h a i r. W e g o in g a ro u n d in t a i l s . I k n o w th a t t h i s
w a s th e i n te n t i o n o f t h e M in i s te r, b u t I k n e w th a t i t c o u ld n o t b e p u t i n to 20
e f fe c t a n d I s a id i n D e c e m b e r I g o t a s a la r y a n d I d id g i v e th e b a n k
s ta te m e n t f o r D e c e m b e r s a la r y. S o I h a v e g o t c o n c re te e v id e n c e i f
a n y b o d y s a y s to m e in D e c e m b e r y o u w e re f i r e d .
I s a id h o w i s t h a t – w h y h a v e I g o t a t r a n s a c t i o n f r o m p a y ro l l
i n D e c e m b e r i f I w a s f i r e d a s o f e n d o f N o v e m b e r.
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A D V H O F M E Y R : M r M a n y i y o u r o w n w o rd s i n N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 0 w e re th a t
y o u h a d b e e n f i r e d . I t i s t h e e v id e n c e o f M s O l ip h a n t t h a t y o u e n g a g e d
h e r o n th e b a s i s t h a t y o u w e re a p p e a l i n g th e d e c i s io n to d i s m is s y o u .
M R M A N Y I : J a b u t C h a i r I d id e x p la in t h a t t h o s e te rm s h a v e j u s t b e e n
u s e d c o l l o q u ia l l y.
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A N Y I : T h a t t h e i s s u e o f b e in g f i r e d . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A N Y I : D o e s n o t h a p p e n . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m . 10
M R M A N Y I : W i th o u t t h e i n v o l v e m e n t o f t h e P re s id e n t . I h a v e b e e n
s a y in g re p e a te d l y.
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s . I t h in k y o u h a v e – w h a t y o u c e r ta in l y h a v e s a id
y o u k n e w w a s th a t t h e M in i s te r h a d ta k e n a d e c i s io n to f i r e y o u .
M R M A N Y I : Ye s .
C H A IR P E R S O N : T h a t y o u s a id y o u k n e w. T h e o th e r p a r t t h a t y o u h a v e
s a id w e k n o w n a m e ly y o u d id n o t r e c o g n is e th a t . Yo u d id n o t t h in k h e
h a d th a t p o w e r, b u t t h a t h e h a d m a d e a d e c i s io n th a t y o u k n e w y o u d id
n o t t h in k h e h a d th a t p o w e r t h a t m u c h . I t h in k w e a d h e re .
M R M A N Y I : Ye s a n d n o t o n l y t h a t . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) . 20
C H A IR P E R S O N : F ro m y o u r s id e , j a .
M R M A N Y I : N o t o n l y t h a t C h a i r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
M R M A N Y I : I c o n t i n u e d to g e t a s a la r y.
C H A IR P E R S O N : J a .
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M R M A N Y I : S o w h a te v e r w a s p u rp o r te d to h a v e b e e n a d i s m is s a l f r o m
w h e re I w a s s i t t i n g . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
M R M A N Y I : D id n o t r e a l l y h a p p e n . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
M R M A N Y I : B e c a u s e h o w c a n i t b e i f I g e t a s a la r y.
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m . O k a y. M s H o fm e y r.
A D V H O F M E Y R : C h a i r t h e m a t te r o f t h e s a la r y. M r M a n y i i s i n d e e d
c o r re c t . H e d id h a n d u s th e – h i s b a n k re c o rd s fo r t h e p e r io d o f t h e
D e c e m b e r p a y m e n t . I t r e q u i re s fu r th e r i n v e s t i g a t i o n o n th e p a r t o f t h e 10
C o m m is s io n a n d I p ro p o s e ju s t t o h ig h l i g h t w h y th a t i s s o . M r M a n y i
i n d i c a te d th a t t h e re w a s a n a f f i d a v i t f r o m th e D i re c to r -G e n e ra l o f t h e
D e p a r tm e n t o f L a b o u r c o n f i rm in g th a t h e h a d b e e n p a id a s a la r y f o r t h e
m o n th s o f N o v e m b e r, D e c e m b e r a n d J a n u a ry. T h a t i s i n d e e d s o .
H e to o k u s to t h a t a f f i d a v i t . T h a t a f f i d a v i t i s a c c o m p a n ie d b y
a f u r th e r a f f i d a v i t . I f I c a n j u s t g i v e y o u th e re fe re n c e . C h a i r i t i s t h e
a f f i d a v i t o f M r M a d u n a . Yo u w i l l f i n d i t a t p a g e 1 4 7 o f N N 5 .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : M r M a d u n a ’s a f f i d a v i t t o t h e C o m m is s io n fo l l o w e d th e
a f f i d a v i t o f t h e D G , b e c a u s e th e D G s a id a t p a ra g ra p h 1 0 th a t M r M a n y i 20
t o o k u s to .
“T h a t f r o m th e i n fo rm a t io n b ro u g h t t o m y a t te n t i o n f r o m
th e P E R S E L o r B A S in d i c a te s s a la r y p a y m e n ts w e re
m a d e to M r M a n y i f o r N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 0 , D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 0
a n d J a n u a ry 2 0 11 . ”
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S o th e re i s n o d i s p u te th a t h e w a s p a id f o r t h o s e m o n th s , b u t
w h a t b e c a m e re le v a n t i s w h e n h e w a s p a id f o r t h o s e m o n th s a n d th a t
w a s s o u g h t t o b e c la r i f i e d i n t h e a f f i d a v i t o f M r M a d u n a , b e c a u s e y o u
w i l l s e e th e re a t p a ra g ra p h 5 o n th a t p a g e i t i s r e c o rd e d :
“F ro m th e i n fo rm a t io n b ro u g h t t o m y a t te n t i o n i t i s
i n d i c a te d th a t … ”
O h . A p o lo g ie s . I m u s t s ta r t a p a ra g ra p h a b o v e . F o u r :
“F ro m th e i n fo rm a t io n b ro u g h t t o m y a t te n t i o n i t i s
i n d i c a te d th a t w h e n M r M a n y i ’s t e rm in a t i o n w a s
w i th d ra w n o n 3 1 J a n u a ry 2 0 11 th i s r e q u i re d h im to b e 10
b a c k p a id f o r t h e a m o u n ts n o t p a id t o h im in
D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 0 a n d J a n u a ry 2 0 11 . F ro m th e i n fo rm a t io n
b ro u g h t t o m y a t t e n t i o n i t i s i n d i c a te d th a t t h i s i s t h e
re a s o n w h y th e re w a s a n i n s t ru c t i o n to p a y M r M a n y i ’s t o
s k ip m o n th s o f s a la r y. F ro m th e i n fo rm a t io n b ro u g h t t o
m y a t t e n t i o n i t i s i n d i c a te d th a t t h e re a f te r t h e s a la r i e s
f o r D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 0 a n d J a n u a ry 2 0 11 w e re p a id t o
M r M a n y i t h ro u g h B A S o n 7 F e b ru a ry 2 0 11 . ”
A n d th e n th e re a re a c c o m p a n y in g d o c u m e n ts i n c lu d in g a
d o c u m e n t d a te w i th a h a n d w r i t t e n d a te 7 F e b ru a ry. C h a i r, I d o n o t w a n t 20
t o t a k e th i s a n y fu r th e r a t t h i s p o in t . E x c e p t t o i n d i c a te , b e c a u s e i t w a s
o n e o f t h e g ro u n d s o n w h ic h M r M a n y i i n d i c a te d th a t I w a s o p e ra t i n g i n
b a d fa i t h . I t i s im p o r ta n t t o l o o k a t b o th a f f i d a v i t s .
I t i s m y s u b m is s io n , b u t I a m c o n c e rn e d to h a v e re c e i v e d f r o m
M r M a n y i b a n k s ta te m e n ts re f l e c t i n g a p a y m e n t . I d o n o t p ro p o s e to g o
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f u r t h e r. I w o u ld l i k e t o i n v e s t i g a te i t . S o th a t w e c a n g e t t o t h e b o t to m
o f w h a t i s s ta te d h e re a s a g a in s t t h e b a n k s ta te m e n ts o f M r M a n y i , b u t
t h a t w a s j u s t . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V H O F M E Y R : To c o m p le te th a t a s p e c t .
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
A D V H O F M E Y R : I w o u ld l i k e t o g o b a c k i f I m a y to t h e m e e t in g w i th
M in i s te r C h a b a n e . S o a t t h a t p o in t y o u h a v e c o n f i rm e d fo r t h e C h a i r
y o u . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : I . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) . 10
A D V H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g ie s C h a i r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : I m e n t i o n fo r w h a t i s i t w o r th t h a t w e a re o n m y w a tc h
a t a b o u t n in e a n d a h a l f m in u te s p a s t 1 2 . I s im p ly m e n t io n th a t
b e c a u s e w e w e re l o o k in g a t t r y in g to f i n i s h a t h a l f p a s t 1 2 . S o th a t w e
a re a l l a l i v e a s t o h o w m u c h t im e i s l e f t . O k a y.
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a i r. I a m w e l l a w a re o f t h e t im e le f t .
M y c o n c e rn i s w h e th e r w e w i l l c o m p le te i n t h a t t im e , b u t s h o u ld w e
p o s s ib l y g e t t o 1 2 :3 0 a n d th e n m a k e a d e c i s io n a b o u t t a k in g m a t te r s
f o rw a rd .
C H A IR P E R S O N : I f y o u th in k th e re i s a c h a n c e y o u c o u ld f i n i s h b y 20
1 2 :0 0 l e t u s d o th a t , b u t i f y o u a l re a d y k n o w i t c a n n o t t h e n m a y b e w e
s h o u ld ta l k n o w, b u t I t h in k g i v e i t a t r y.
A D V H O F M E Y R : I a m h a p p y to g i v e i t a t r y. I a m a lm o s t c e r ta in
t h o u g h th a t w e w i l l n o t f i n i s h a n d th e re a s o n fo r t h a t i s .
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
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A D V H O F M E Y R : I a m v e ry m in d fu l o f t h e fo c u s th a t t h e C h a i r w a n te d
to p la c e . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
A D V H O F M E Y R : O n th e re m a in in g e v id e n c e .
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h e c h a l l e n g e th o u g h i s t h a t w e n e e d to c o m p le te t h e
t r a n s fe r i n to G C IS .
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h e re i s e v id e n c e re la te d to t h a t a n d . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m . 10
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t M r M a n y i k n e w a n d w h o h e w a s i n te ra c t i n g
w i th .
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
A D V H O F M E Y R : I t h e n d o n e e d – I k n o w th a t t h e re i s a f u l l a f f i d a v i t
f r o m M r M a n y i i n r e s p o n s e to M s W i l l i a m s , b u t t h e re a re p a r t i c u la r
p o in t s i n t h a t a f f i d a v i t t h a t a re re le v a n t t o t h e i s s u e s w e h a v e b e e n
t r a v e rs in g w i th M r M a n y i t o d a y a n d le t m e ju s t h ig h l i g h t w h a t t h e y a re .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : M r M a n y i m a d e s u b m is s io n s – g a v e e v id e n c e
y e s te rd a y i n re la t i o n to t h e s p e n d o f G C IS a f t e r M r M a n y i e n te re d G C IS 20
a n d h e m a d e th e p o in t t h a t t h e re w a s n e v e r R 6 0 0 m i l l i o n p a id w h i l e h e
w a s a t G C IS to T N A . I t i s im p o r ta n t t h a t w e p ro b e p re c i s e l y w h a t
p a y m e n ts w e re m a d e in th e p e r io d u n d e r M r M a n y i ’s w a tc h .
Q u i te f r a n k l y i n f a i r n e s s to M r M a n y i , b e c a u s e h e s a y s th a t
w e m u s t l o o k a t t h a t i n o rd e r f o r d o ts t o b e c o n n e c te d i n a p a r t i c u la r
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w a y a n d i t w o u ld n o t b e a p p ro p r ia te n o t t o t r a v e rs e th a t w i t h M r M a n y i .
I f I a m to d o th o s e a s p e c ts a n d a l s o – w e l l w e w a n t t o t i e u p th e s a la r y
a s p e c t . I t i s n o t – i t i s c e r ta in l y n o t c le a r t o m e th a t w e w o u ld f i n i s h b y
1 2 :3 0 .
C H A IR P E R S O N : W e l l i f t h e re a l i t y i s t h a t w e a re n o t g o in g to f i n i s h b y
1 2 :3 0 w h e n M r M a n y i m a y h a v e to l e a v e , b e c a u s e a s I u n d e rs ta n d i t h e
h a s g o t o th e r c o m m i tm e n ts t h a t h e n e e d s to a t t e n d to . I t h in k t h a t i s
w h a t h e s a id .
A D V H O F M E Y R : H ’m m .
C H A IR P E R S O N : To s a y w h y i t i s im p o r ta n t f o r h im to c a tc h th e f l i g h t . 10
T h e n th e q u e s t i o n th a t a r i s e s i s w h e th e r i f h e i s g o in g to b e a s k e d to
c o m e b a c k a n y w a y. T h e re i s a n y p o in t i n d e la y in g h im a n o th e r 1 5
. . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
A D V H O F M E Y R : H ’m m .
C H A IR P E R S O N : 1 5 m in u te s . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
A D V H O F M E Y R : H ’m m .
C H A IR P E R S O N : O r w e s h o u ld l e t h im g o a n d c a tc h h i s f l i g h t a n d o th e r
a r ra n g e m e n ts b e m a d e fo r t h e fu tu re . M r M a n y i d o y o u w a n t t o s a y
s o m e th in g o n th i s ?
M R M A N Y I : C h a i rp e rs o n I d o n o t k n o w - I . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) . 20
C H A IR P E R S O N : Yo u w o u ld l i k e t o f i n i s h i f y o u c a n ?
M R M A N Y I : I w o u ld l i k e t o f i n i s h i f I c a n C h a i r. J a .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s . I t h in k t h a t i s t h e s e n s e I a m g e t t i n g .
M R M A N Y I : J a .
C H A IR P E R S O N : W e l l I t h in k ] f r o m o u r s id e w e a re a v a i l a b le t h e w h o le
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d a y.
M R M A N Y I : I t . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : C e r ta in l y f r o m m y s id e I w a s s e n s i t i v e i f y o u m ig h t
h a v e c o m m i tm e n ts t h a t y o u c a n n o t m o v e . T h a t y o u n e e d e d to h o n o u r,
b u t i f t h e re i s a c h a n c e th a t m a y b e e v e n i f w e ta k e a b re a k . Yo u m a k e
w h a te v e r c a l l s t h a t y o u m ig h t w is h to m a k e a n d m a k e o th e r
a r ra n g e m e n ts a n d w e a re a b le t o c o n t i n u e a n d t r y a n d f i n i s h .
W e a re a v a i l a b le t o d o th a t , b u t I k n o w th a t M s H o fm e y r h a s
s a id t h e re a re t h in g s th a t m ig h t n e e d fu r th e r i n v e s t i g a t i o n . S o I d o n o t
k n o w w h e th e r w e c o u ld a c h ie v e f i n i s h in g w i th y o u c o m p le te l y a l l 10
t o g e th e r t o d a y o r w h e th e r w h a te v e r o th e r i s s u e s th a t m a y b e
in v e s t i g a te d m ig h t b e d e a l t w i t h b y w a y o f a f f i d a v i t – r e s p o n s e s i n
a f f i d a v i t w i t h o u t y o u h a v in g to c o m e b a c k a n d g i v e o ra l e v id e n c e . S o
a l l o f t h o s e th in g s c o u ld b e l o o k e d a t . W h a t d o y o u th in k ?
M R M A N Y I : C h a i r, i f t h e p e o p le d o in g l o g i s t i c s t h e y c a n m o v e – l e t u s
s a y th e f l i g h t b y o n e h o u r. W i l l t h a t w o rk fo r M s H o fm e y r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h e c h a l l e n g e i s w e u s u a l l y t a k e th e l u n c h a d jo u rn .
S o m y s u g g e s t i o n w o u ld b e th a t w e p u s h th e f l i g h t l a te e n o u g h th a t w e
c a n h a p p i l y a d jo u rn . 20
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
A D V H O F M E Y R : C o m e b a c k a t tw o a n d c o m p le te t h e e v id e n c e . I a m
a n x io u s w i th a g a p o f a n h o u r t h a t w e w o u ld b e a b le t o m a k e th re e .
C H A IR P E R S O N : W e l l w e . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
M R M A N Y I : C a n w e n o t t a k e l u n c h a t tw o C h a i r?
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C H A IR P E R S O N : W e c a n . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
M R M A N Y I : S o th a t w e f i n i s h a t tw o .
C H A IR P E R S O N : W e c a n m o v e th e l u n c h to l a te r i f t h a t i s g o in g to
h e lp .
A D V H O F M E Y R : H ’m m .
C H A IR P E R S O N : S o . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
A D V H O F M E Y R : C e r ta in l y.
C H A IR P E R S O N : N o b o d y w i l l d i e i f w e d o n o t e a t a t o n e . S o – o k a y
a n d i f w e d o i t t h a t w a y n a m e ly w e w o rk u p to tw o w o u ld t h a t g i v e y o u
e n o u g h t im e to . . . ( i n te r v e n e s )? 10
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a t s h o u ld g i v e e n o u g h t im e .
C H A IR P E R S O N : T h a t s h o u ld g i v e e n o u g h t im e .
A D V H O F M E Y R : S u b je c t t o t h e i n v e s t i g a t i o n s o n th e s a la r y
. . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : I s s u e . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : B u t a s I s ta n d h e re n o w C h a i r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : I t d o e s s e e m to m e i t m ig h t b e th e a p p ro p r ia te 20
s u b je c t m a t te r f o r a n e x c h a n g e o f a f f i d a v i t s , w e w o u ld h a v e to e v a lu a te
t h e a f f i d a v i t s . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : W h e n w e re c e i v e th e m a s w e a lw a y s d o .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
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A D V H O F M E Y R : I n o rd e r t o d e te rm in e w h e th e r i t i s n e c e s s a ry t o p ro b e
fu r th e r t h ro u g h o ra l e v id e n c e . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
A D V H O F M E Y R : B u t a s I s ta n d h e re n o w i t d o e s s e e m to b e th e t y p e
o f m a t te r t h a t c o u ld b e a d d re s s e d o n a f f i d a v i t .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. O k a y. I t h in k l e t u s w o rk o n th e b a s i s
t h e re fo re – I t h in k i s t h e re s o m e b o d y w h o w i l l t a l k t o t h o s e w h o d o
l o g i s t i c s t o t r y a n d m o v e M r M a n y i ’s f l i g h t .
M R M A N Y I : To 4 o ’ c l o c k .
C H A IR P E R S O N : To 4 o ’ c l o c k . 10
A D V H O F M E Y R : W e w i l l m a k e a r ra n g e m e n ts C h a i r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : I f h e d o e s n o t g e t a 4 o ’ c l o c k o n e th e e a r l i e s t a f t e r
t h a t . I s t h a t f i n e ?
M R M A N Y I : J a . T h a t i s f i n e C h a i r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. A l r i g h t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a i r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u fo r y o u r c o o p e ra t i o n M r M a n y i .
M R M A N Y I : T h a n k y o u C h a i r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Ye s . L e t u s p ro c e e d th e n .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a i r. S o I w a s – w e w e re d e a l i n g w i th 20
y o u r i n te ra c t i o n w i th M in i s te r C h a b a n e w h e n h e m a d e th e p ro p o s a l t o
y o u o f o p t i o n s a n d I w a s p ro b in g w i th y o u w h e th e r y o u ra i s e d a t a l l t h e
q u e s t i o n o f y o u n o t a t t h a t p o in t b e in g w i th in t h e D e p a r tm e n t o f L a b o u r.
D id I u n d e rs ta n d y o u r e v id e n c e to b e y o u h a d n o d i s c u s s io n a b o u t t h a t?
M R M A N Y I : N o t a t a l l C h a i r.
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A D V H O F M E Y R : S o y o u d id n o t q u e ry w i th h im h o w y o u c o u ld b e
t r a n s fe r re d to a n o th e r d e p a r tm e n t d e s p i t e t h e fa c t t h a t y o u – t h e re h a d
b e e n a p re v io u s d e c i s io n b y M in i s te r M d la d la n a to d i s m is s y o u ?
M R M A N Y I : N o . I h a d n e v e r r e c o g n is e d th a t d e c i s io n . I u n d e rs to o d
m y s e l f t o b e o n p re c a u t io n a ry s u s p e n s io n a n d I r e p e a t , b e c a u s e I w a s
g e t t i n g m y s a la r y. S o I u n d e rs to o d to b e o n p re c a u t io n a ry s u s p e n s io n .
S o i f a n d I k n e w th a t o n th e 2 8 t h t h e c h a rg e s th a t o r a l l e g a t i o n s th a t
w e re p re fe r re d a g a in s t m e w e re a b a n d o n e d b a s i c a l l y, b e c a u s e
M in i s te r M d la d la n a n o w th o u g h t s h e h a s g o t a s h o r t c u t t o d e a l w i t h
t h i s m a t te r. 10
S o I k n e w th a t t h e o n l y m o s t l o g i c a l t h in g i s t o re - i n s ta te m e
a s i t w e re , b e c a u s e th e re w a s n o th in g re a l l y s ta n d in g i n m y w a y. T h e re
w e re – t h e 2 8 t h w a s th e d a y to s i t a n d d e a l w i t h t h i s m a t te r a n d o n th a t
d a y th i s t h in g w a s a b a n d o n e d . S o th e re w a s n o th in g re a l l y i n –
s ta n d in g . T h e p ro b a t io n te rm in a t i o n th a t s h e w a s d o in g i t w a s d o in g –
h e d id n o t e v e n fo l l o w p ro c e s s .
H e b ro k e a l l t h e ru le s o f t h e L a b o u r R e la t i o n s . S o i t w a s n o t
g o in g to s ta n d . S o th e o n l y l o g i c a l t h in g – I w a s th e D G o f L a b o u r a n d
I u n d e rs to o d th e s e th in g s . S o th e o n l y t h in g th a t w a s l e f t w a s j u s t t o
b e p u t b a c k . A s to t h e d e ta i l s o f w h e n an d h o w a n d a l l o f t h a t I k n e w 20
t h a t s o m e h o w th e y w o u ld b e ta k e n c a re o f .
A D V H O F M E Y R : Yo u i n d i c a te d e a r l i e r i n y o u r t e s t im o n y th a t y o u ra i s e d
th e i s s u e o f t h e c h a rg e s a g a in s t y o u w i th M in i s te r O l i p h a n t . I s t h a t
c o r re c t?
C H A IR P E R S O N : J u s t o n e s e c o n d M s H o fm e y r. D o w e k n o w w h e th e r
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s o m e o n e i s t a l k in g to t h o s e w h o m u s t m o v e M r M a n y i ’s f l i g h t? I s t h e re
s o m e b o d y a t t e n d in g to t h a t?
A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s . T h e y a re i n d e e d C h a i r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : O k a y. A l r i g h t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . M r M a n y i I u n d e rs to o d y o u r e v id e n c e to
b e y o u d id n o t – y o u d id ra i s e t h e i s s u e o f t h e c h a rg e s fa c in g y o u w h e n
y o u i n te ra c te d w i th M in i s te r O l i p h a n t . I s t h a t c o r re c t?
M R M A N Y I : J a . C h a rg e s /a l l e g a t i o n s . Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : B u t y o u h a v e j u s t s a id i n y o u r e v id e n c e th a t y o u r
u n d e rs ta n d in g w a s th a t t h e y h a d b e e n a b a n d o n e d . W h y w e re y o u 10
r a i s i n g a b a n d o n e d c h a rg e s w i th t h e M in i s te r t h e n ?
M R M A N Y I : N o . N o . N o . N o . I h a d to g i v e t h e M in i s te r t h e fu l l
p i c tu re o f w h a t w a s h a p p e n in g . I p ro b a b ly w o u ld – j a . I h a d to g i v e
h e r t h e fu l l p i c tu re o f w h a t w a s h a p p e n in g a n d th a t i n c lu d e d th a t p a r t .
I t w a s p a r t o f t h e s to r y. T h e re i s n o w a y th a t y o u c o u ld g o a n d y o u
b r i e f t h e M in i s te r a n d th e n y o u b r i n g d r i b s a n d d ra b s o f i n fo rm a t io n .
Yo u m u s t g i v e t h e fu l l p i c tu re . S o I w o u ld h a v e s a id t h a t i n t h e – i n
t h a t d i s c u s s io n .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u a n d w e s a w th e l e t t e r b e tw e e n
M in i s te r B a lo y i a n d M in i s te r O l i p h a n t i n d i c a t i n g th a t i f s h e w e re to 20
b r in g y o u b a c k a n d w i th d ra w th e te rm in a t i o n s h e w o u ld t h e n n e e d to
m a k e a d e c i s io n a s t o w h e th e r t o c o n t i n u e w i th t h e m is c o n d u c t c h a rg e s
a g a in s t y o u . D id y o u h a v e a n y d i s c u s s io n s w i th h e r a b o u t t h a t?
M R M A N Y I : N o t a t a l l C h a i r.
A D V H O F M E Y R : W e re y o u s u rp r i s e d to l e a rn t h a t t h e y w e re n o t
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p ro c e e d e d w i th ?
M R M A N Y I : I b e g y o u r p a rd o n .
A D V H O F M E Y R : W e re y o u s u rp r i s e d th a t t h e y w e re n o t p ro c e e d e d
w i th ?
M R M A N Y I : N o . I w a s n o t s u rp r i s e d , b e c a u s e a s I s a id I k n e w th e y
w e re a b a n d o n e d o n th e 2 8 t h . T h a t w a s m y u n d e rs ta n d in g . T h a t t h e
l a w y e rs th a t w e re ta s k e d to d e a l w i th t h i s m a t te r c a m e to a c o n c lu s io n
th a t n o p o in t i n c a r r y in g th i s f u r t h e r. P a r t o f t h e th in g s th a t I w a s g i v e n
l a s t n ig h t i s t h e re c o rd a l o f t h a t m e e t in g . I t i s h e re . T h a t – i t w a s
d e c id e d th a t l e t u s j u s t s to p th i s t h in g , b e c a u s e th e re i s a s h o r t c u t t h a t 10
w e c a n ta k e .
A D V H O F M E Y R : J u s t f o r t h e re c o rd C h a i r. I a b s o lu te l y a c c e p t t h a t t h e
t r a n s c r i p t o f t h a t m e e t in g i n d i c a te s th a t t h e p ro c e e d in g s w e re
a d jo u rn e d . I t i s a s e p a ra te m a t te r w h e th e r t h e c h a rg e s w e re
a b a n d o n e d a t t h a t p ro c e e d in g o r n o t , b u t I w i l l n o t d e b a te t h a t f u r t h e r
w i t h M r M a n y i .
I f w e c a n th e n M r M a n y i g o j u s t t o o n e o r tw o fo l l o w u p
q u e s t i o n s o n y o u r i n te ra c t i o n s w i th t h e fo rm e r P re s id e n t i n r e la t i o n to
y o u r p o s i t i o n a f te r t h e d e c i s io n o f M in i s te r M d la d la n a to t e rm in a te y o u .
Yo u i n d i c a te d th a t y o u d id h a v e a n i n te rac t i o n w i th h im . C a n y o u p la c e 20
t h a t i n t im e a t a l l ?
M R M A N Y I : I c a n n o t p la c e th a t i n t im e , b u t i t w o u ld b e i n t h e m id d le o f
t h a t p re c a u t i o n a ry s u s p e n s io n . I r e a l l y c a n n o t p la c e th e t im e .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d th i s I a s s u m e w o u ld h a v e o c c u r re d a f te r t h e e n d
o f O c to b e r 2 0 1 0 ?
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M R M A N Y I : I d o n o t r e c a l l .
A D V H O F M E Y R : O k a y. T h a n k y o u . H o w w o u ld y o u d e s c r ib e y o u r
r e la t i o n s h ip w i th f o rm e r P re s id e n t Z u m a ?
M R M A N Y I : J a . P re s id e n t Z u m a C h a i rp e rs o n i s a v e ry f r i e n d l y p e rs o n .
H e g e ts a lo n g w i th a l o t o f p e o p le a n d s o o n . S o I h a d – l i k e h e – l l e t
m e p u t i t t h i s w a y. P re s id e n t Z u m a h a d a l o t o f g o o d re la t i o n s h ip s w i th
a l o t o f p e o p le a n d I w a s o n e o f t h e m .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u a n d h o w w o u ld y o u d e s c r ib e y o u r
r e la t i o n s h ip w i th t h e G u p ta fa m i l y p r i o r t o y o u r m o v e i n to G C IS in
F e b ru a ry 2 0 11 ? 10
M R M A N Y I : T h e re w a s n o re la t i o n s h ip .
A D V H O F M E Y R : N o t a t a l l ?
M R M A N Y I : J a . L o o k re la t i o n s h ip i s – re la t i o n s h ip C h a i r i s a s t r o n g
te rm .
A D V H O F M E Y R : H ’m m .
M R M A N Y I : W h e th e r I k n e w a b o u t t h e m a n d th e re la t i o n s h ip w i t h t h e m
a re tw o d i f f e re n t m a t te r s . I k n e w a b o u t t h e m , b u t r e la t i o n s h ip w i th
t h e m a t t h a t p o in t . N o .
A D V H O F M E Y R : H a d y o u h a d p e rs o n a l i n te ra c t i o n s w i th t h e m p r io r t o
t h a t p o in t? 20
M R M A N Y I : N o . I d o n o t r e c a l l C h a i r.
A D V H O F M E Y R : D o y o u re c a l l b e in g i n v i t e d to a N e w A g e f r i e n d s h ip
c e le b ra t i o n i n J a n u a ry 2 0 11 ?
M R M A N Y I : I s a w th a t i n t h e p a c k C h a i r. T h a t w a s S o u th A f r i c a – t h a t
w a s a c r i c k e t g a m e o r s o m e th in g . S o u th A f r i c a a n d In d ia a n d a l l o f
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t h a t . I s a w th a t . J a . I r e m e m b e r t h a t a n d I w a s i n v i t e d th e re i n m y
c a p a c i t y a s t h e P re s id e n t o f t h e B M F.
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d d id y o u a t te n d ?
M R M A N Y I : J a . D e f i n i t e l y I a t t e n d e d C h a i r.
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d w h y d o y o u s a y i t w a s i n y o u r c a p a c i t y a s
P re s id e n t o f B M F ?
M R M A N Y I : B e c a u s e i n t h e d o c u m e n t i t a c tu a l l y e v e n s h o w s th a t i n t h e
– I j u s t d o n o t k n o w w h e re to f i n d i t . I f M s H o f fm a n c a n j u s t h e lp u s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s . C e r ta in l y.
M R M A N Y I : H o fm e y r. I b e g y o u r p a rd o n . S o r r y. O n ? 10
A D V H O F M E Y R : I t i s a t p a g e 11 5 o f E x h ib i t N N 5 .
M R M A N Y I : 11 5 . J a . S o w h a t i s y o u r q u e s t i o n a g a in ?
A D V H O F M E Y R : Yo u i n d i c a te d th a t y o u w e re i n v i t e d i n y o u r c a p a c i t y
a s P re s id e n t o f B M F . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
M R M A N Y I : Ye s . I f y o u . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d I q u e r ie d h o w y o u c a m e to t h a t c o n c lu s io n .
M R M A N Y I : I f y o u g o to p a g e 1 2 2 .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u .
M R M A N Y I : T h e re i s m y n a m e th e re a n d th e re i s P re s id e n t B M F.
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h i s g u e s t l i s t i s t h i s s o m e th in g y o u h a d s e e n p r i o r t o 20
r e c e i v in g th e f i l e l a s t n ig h t?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s . T h i s i s w h a t I g o t i n t h e f i l e l a s t n ig h t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : S o y o u h a d n o t s e e n th i s g u e s t l i s t p r i o r t o l a s t n ig h t?
M R M A N Y I : T h i s g u e s t l i s t?
A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
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M R M A N Y I : U n le s s – I t h in k t h i s i s p a r t o f t h o s e – n o , n o C h a i r. I
h a v e n o t s e e n i t . I t h in k – b u t i t i s p a r t o f t h o s e fa m o u s ly k n o w n G u p ta
l e a k s e -m a i l s a n d s o o n a n d I d id d e a l w i t h t h i s m a t te r e v e n i n i t i a l l y
w i t h A d v o c a te M a le k a . S o th a t i s w h y I w o u ld re m e m b e r m o re o r l e s s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : I u n d e rs ta n d . T h e i n v i t e t o y o u i s a t p a g e 11 5 . T h e
re a s o n w h y I q u e r ie d y o u r u n d e rs ta n d in g th a t y o u h a d b e e n in v i t e d i n
t h a t c a p a c i t y i s t h e i n v i t e d o e s n o t s e e m to d e n o te th a t . S o I w a s j u s t
w o n d e r in g a t t h e t im e th a t y o u w e re i n v i t e d d id y o u u n d e rs ta n d th a t y o u
w e re b e in g i n v i t e d i n t h a t c a p a c i t y o r d id y o u n o t u n d e rs ta n d th e
c a p a c i t y i n w h ic h y o u . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) . 10
M R M A N Y I : N o .
A D V H O F M E Y R : W e re b e in g i n v i t e d ?
M R M A N Y I : N o . I k n e w – B M F P re s id e n ts g e t i n v i t e d b y a l l t h e s e
c o rp o ra te s C h a i r. S o th i s w a s j u s t o n e o f t h o s e th in g s . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u .
M R M A N Y I : B u t w h a t i n f a c t w h e n I w a s l o o k in g a t t h i s l a s t n ig h t C h a i r.
J u s t t o d e a l w i th t h e i n fe re n c e i n t h i s w h o le d i s c u s s io n . I t i s q u i t e
im p o r ta n t t o n o te th a t t h e re a re V V IP ta b le s w h e re th e G u p ta p e o p le
w e re a n d w h o w a s i n t h o s e ta b le s – o n th o s e re s e rv e d h ig h ta b le s . S o
I a m n o t i n t h o s e t a b le s C h a i rp e rs o n . 20
T h e re i s a w h o le l i s t o f v e ry im p o r ta n t p e o p le t h a t a re i n
t h e s e ta b le s . I w a s n o t i n t h o s e ta b le s . I n f a c t i f y o u l o o k e v e n i n t h e
c a te g o ry h e re I w a s o n o th e r e -m a i l s s e n t . T h i s i s w h a t i s h e re C h a i r.
S o i t w a s n o t l i k e I w a s o n e o f t h o s e p e o p le t h a t w e re re a l l y t a rg e te d . I
w a s j u s t o n e o f t h e m a n y p e o p le t h a t t h e y i n v i t e d .
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A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u M r M a n y i a n d I w o n d e r w h e th e r y o u a re
a w a re th a t t h e re w a s e v id e n c e g i v e n a t t h e C o m m is s io n i n A u g u s t o f
t h i s y e a r b y M r S im o n s a n d M r H lo n g w a n e . A re y o u a w a re o f t h a t
e v id e n c e ?
M R M A N Y I : I s a w th e m o n T V h e re , b u t I d o n o t h a v e th e d e ta i l s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : I t h i n k y o u m ig h t h a v e re c e i v e d a R u le 3 .3 N o t i c e i n
r e la t i o n to M r S im o n s ’ e v id e n c e . I s t h a t c o r re c t?
M R M A N Y I : O h . J a . Ye s . Ye s . Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A m o n g s t t h e th in g s th a t M r S im o n s te s t i f i e d a b o u t
w a s h e s a id t h a t i t h a d b e e n re la y e d to h im b y M in i s te r C h a b a n e th a t 10
h e w a s n o t k e e n to a p p o in t y o u i n – w e l l – t o f a c i l i t a te t h e t r a n s fe r t o
G C IS . D id M in i s te r C h a b a n e c o n v e y th a t t o y o u e v e r?
M R M A N Y I : N o . N e v e r.
A D V H O F M E Y R : N e v e r. D o y o u h a v e a n y to d i s p u te M r S im o n s ’
e v id e n c e i n t h a t r e g a rd ?
M R M A N Y I : I d o n o t k n o w i f h e h a s a n y e v id e n c e to b a c k u p w h a t h e
s a id i n t h e f i r s t p la c e a n d th e re i s – a n d I d id re s p o n d to t h a t i n v i t e –
t h a t c o r re s p o n d e n c e th a t i s – I w a s to ld I a m im p l i c a te d . I s a id w h a t i s
im p l i c a t i o n h e re . Yo u a re n o t im p l i c a te d h e re . H e i s j u s t s a y in g th in g s .
I t h in k t h a t g u y j u s t r e a l l y w a n te d to b e o n T V to b e h o n e s t . 20
H e ju s t c a m e a n d h e p u t w o rd s i n M r C h a b a n e ’s m o u th . T h a t n o o n e
c a n p ro v e o th e rw is e . S o I d id n o t w a n t t o c o m e h e re a n d ta l k a b o u t a
d e c e a s e d p e rs o n a n d y o u s a y h e s a id . T h a t I t h o u g h t w a s a w a s te o f
t im e .
A D V H O F M E Y R : M r M a n y i y o u a n s w e re d m y q u e s t i o n a s t o w h e th e r
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y o u h a d a b a s i s t o d i s p u te w h a t M r S im o n s s a y s M r C h a b a n e s a id t o
h im b y s a y in g M r S im o n s d id n o t h a v e e v id e n c e to b a c k i t u p .
M R M A N Y I : D id n o t h a v e e v id e n c e . Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a t i s a s e p a ra te m a t te r. I a m a s k in g w h e th e r y o u
h a v e a n y b a s i s t o d i s p u te w h a t M r S im o n s s a y s M r C h a b a n e s a id t o
h im .
M R M A N Y I : N o C h a i rp e rs o n . T h i s i s v e ry o d d . T h i s i s a w ro n g
q u e s t i o n . T h i s i s a w ro n g q u e s t i o n . T h e q u e s t i o n h e re i s t h a t
B re n t S im o n s c o m e s h e re a n d s a y s M r C h a b a n e s a id o n e , tw o , t h re e ,
f o u r a n d a g a in I . . . ( i n d i s t i n c t ) . I m e a n w h a t h a s th a t g o t t o d o w i th m e 10
C h a i r?
C H A IR P E R S O N : I s y o u r a n s w e r I d o n o t k n o w w h a t M r C h a b a n e m a y
o r m a y n o t h a v e s a id i n t h e c o n v e rs a t i o n w i th h e r i f t h e re w a s s u c h a
c o n v e rs a t i o n . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
M R M A N Y I : Ye s a n d . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : A n d th a t i s a l l I c a n s a y ?
M R M A N Y I : J a . N o . T h a t i s a n d th e re i s n o l e g i t im a te e x p e c ta t i o n
th a t I s h o u ld k n o w. S o i t i s a t o ta l l y . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
M R M A N Y I : I r r e le v a n t a n d i r r a t i o n a l q u e s t i o n to a s k m e a n d to s a y d o I 20
h a v e a b a s i s t o s a y h e i s w ro n g . A s i f I s h o u ld h a v e th e b a s i s t o d o –
t o k n o w w h a te v e r M r C h a b a n e th in k s . N o . I t t h i s i s . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : W e l l y o u . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
M R M A N Y I : I t i s a n u n fa i r q u e s t i o n .
C H A IR P E R S O N : W e l l y o u s e e s o m e o f t h e s e th in g s y o u k n o w th e s e
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a re n o t l e g a l p ro c e e d in g s l i k e i n a c o u r t . T h e y a re n o t c o u r t
p ro c e e d in g s , b u t t o a v e ry l a rg e e x te n t t h in g s th a t h a p p e n in a c o u r t
s e t u p a re u s e d . N o w th e re a s o n w h y M s H o fm e y r a s k e d th a t q u e s t i o n
i s b e c a u s e s h e p ro b a b ly s a y s l o o k i n c a s e w h a t t h a t w i t n e s s s a id
b e c o m e s im p o r ta n t a t s o m e s ta g e i n t h e fu tu re .
W e m u s t g i v e M r M a n y i a n o p p o r tu n i t y t o s a y w h e th e r h e h a s
i s s u e s w i th t h a t k in d o f e v id e n c e . D o e s h e d i s p u te i t ? N o w y o u s a y
l o o k I w a s n o t t h e re . I d o n o t k n o w i f t h a t c o n v e rs a t i o n t o o k p la c e , s o I
r e a l l y d o n o t k n o w, b u t w h a t y o u m ig h t b e a b le t o s a y i s f o r a rg u m en t
s a k e y o u k n o w I k n o w th a t w i tn e s s , h e i s a n a b s o lu te l i a r, h e l i e s a l o t , 10
w h a te v e r h e s a id c a n ’ t b e t r u e o r I k n o w h e h a s s o m e th in g a g a in s t m e
a n d th a t ’s w h y h e c a m e h e re a n d h e s a id t h a t i t c a n ’ t b e t r u e , b u t y o u
m ig h t n o t b e a b le t o s a y a n y th in g l i k e t h a t , y o u m ig h t s a y I d o n ’ t k n o w
w h e th e r w h a t h e s a y s w a s to ld t o h im b y M r C h a b a n e w a s to ld t o h im o r
n o t , I w a s n ’ t t h e re a n d I d o n ’ t p a r t i c u la r l y k n o w w h y h e m ig h t w a n t t o
l i e a b o u t M r C h a b a n e i f h e i s l y i n g b u t I w a s n ’ t t h e re .
S o s o m e t im e s th a t i s w h a t h a p p e n s . I m e a n y e s te rd a y fo r y o u
I t h in k y o u w e re h e re , M r M a s e k o w a s b e in g a s k e d a q u e s t i o n a b o u t
w h y M r M a lo y i w o u ld t e l l a n u n t ru th a n d s a y h e c o n s u l te d w i th h im
b e fo re h e w a s t r a n s fe r re d f r o m G C IS i f a c tu a l l y t h a t d id n ’ t h a p p e n , a n d 20
M r M a s e k o ’s a n s w e r w a s w e l l y o u k n o w m a y b e h i s s p e c u la t i o n m ig h t
n o t b e a g o o d th in g , b u t m a y b e h e i s c o n fu s in g w h a t w a s d i s c u s s e d a t
a n o th e r m e e t in g i n J u n e /J u l y 2 0 11 o r w a s i t 2 0 1 2 , J u l y 2 0 11 I t h in k w i th
a m e e t in g th a t d id n ’ t t a k e p la c e , s o s o m e t im e s a w i tn e s s c a n c o m e u p
w i th s o m e th in g th a t m ig h t a s s i s t t o s a y o k a y m a y b e th a t w i t n e s s i s n o t
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a c tu a l l y l y i n g b u t h e i s c o n fu s in g c e r ta in t h in g s , s o t h a t ’s t h e re a s o n I
t h in k w h y.
M R M A N Y I : M a y b e th e n C h a i r c l o s e r t o t h a t I c o u ld s a y m y
u n d e rs ta n d in g o f t h e re la t i o n s h ip o f M in i s te r C h a b a n e a n d – i t w a s h i s
PA , I j u s t f o rg e t i s n a m e n o w, v e ry – h e w a s h e re , w h a t w a s th i s g u y ’s
n a m e ?
A D V H O F M E Y R : M r H lo n g w a n e w h o w a s h i s P r i v a te S e c re ta ry ?
M R M A N Y I : W h a t ’s t h e f i r s t n a m e ?
A D V H O F M E Y R : I ’ d h a v e to g e t h i s s ta te m e n t , j u s t g i v e m e a m o m e n t .
A b e d n ig o . 10
M R M A N Y I : A b e d n ig o , y e s s o r r y, I h a d a m e n ta l b lo c k . Yo u s e e C h a i r
i f t h i s w a s s a id b y A b e d n ig o i t w o u ld c a r r y a l o t o f w e ig h t b e c a u s e o f
m y u n d e rs ta n d in g o f t h e c lo s e n e s s o f A b e d n ig o w i th M r C h a b a n e . B re t t
S im o n s h e h a d a re la t i o n s h ip w i th M r C h a b a n e b u t i t i s n o t m y
u n d e rs ta n d in g th a t i t w a s a t t h a t l e v e l o f h a v in g th i s k in d o f d i s c u s s io n ,
s o . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : O k a y th a n k y o u .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . T h e re w a s a l s o e v id e n c e f r o m M r
S im o n s th a t M in i s te r C h a b a n e h a d c o n v e y e d to h im a c o n c e rn a b o u t
a p p o in t i n g y o u b e c a u s e y o u w e re e m b ro i l e d i n a s c a n d a l a t t h e t im e . 20
D id M r C h a b a n e d i s c u s s th a t w i t h y o u a t a l l w h e n y o u m e t w i th h im ?
M R M A N Y I : N o n o t a t a l l .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d a t a n y p o in t t h e re a f te r?
M R M A N Y I : N o n e v e r.
A D V H O F M E Y R : M r S im o n s ’ e v id e n c e w a s a l s o th a t M in i s te r C h a b a n e
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s a id p e o p le i n c o m m u n ic a t i o n s h o u ld n o t b e c o m e th e n e w s , d id y o u
h a v e a d i s c u s s io n w i th M r C h a b a n e a b o u t t h a t a t a l l ?
M R M A N Y I : N o th a t w a s , t h a t k i n d o f s ta te m e n t w a s p a r t o f t h e
s t ra t c o m l i n e th a t ’s w h a t t h e y h a v e b e e n s a y in g . I m e a n w h e n I a r r i v e d
a t t h e D e p a r tm e n t f r o m d a y o n e th a t c o m m e n t w a s m a d e , s o n o M r
C h a b a n e n e v e r s a id a n y th in g l i k e t h a t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : M r M a n y i a t t h e e n d o f t h e e x p i r y o f y o u r c o n t ra c t i t
w a s n o t r e n e w e d b y M in i s te r C h a b a n e , i s t h a t c o r re c t?
M R M A N Y I : I t w a s n o t r e n e w e d b y P u b l i c S e rv i c e y e s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : D o y o u d i s p u te th a t i t w a s fo r M in i s te r C h a b a n e to 10
d e te rm in e w h e th e r t o r e n e w i t ?
M R M A N Y I : W e l l M in i s te r C h a b a n e w o u ld h a v e – l o o k th e – w h e n I –
t h a t c o n t ra c t C h a i rp e rs o n d id n o t h a v e a n o b l i g a t i o n to b e re n e w e d , s o
th e re w a s n o e x p e c ta t i o n f r o m m y s id e th a t i t s h o u ld b e re n e w e d s o I
d o n ’ t k n o w i f I a m m is u n d e rs ta n d in g th e q u e s t i o n , I n e v e r e x p e c te d i t t o
b e re n e w e d b e c a u s e th a t w a s n e v e r t h e o r i g in a l u n d e rs ta n d in g , i t w a s a
f i x e d c o n t ra c t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : N o I w a s j u s t i n m y a n s w e r – i n y o u r a n s w e r y o u s a id
i t w a s n ’ t r e n e w e d b y D P S A a n d th a t w a s i n re s p o n s e to a q u e s t i o n
a b o u t M in i s te r C h a b a n e h a v in g d e c id e d n o t t o r e n e w y o u s o I w a s 20
s e e k in g to c la r i f y w h e th e r y o u ta k e i s s u e w i th t h e n o t i o n th a t i t w a s M r
C h a b a n e th a t h a d to t a k e th e d e c i s io n ?
M R M A N Y I : M r C h a b a n e w o u ld h a v e to m a k e a re c o m m e n d a t io n to t h e
P re s id e n t , h e w o u ld n o t h a v e b e e n a b le t o d o th a t o n h i s o w n .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h e e v id e n c e o f M r S im o n s w a s th a t t h e P re s id e n t
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w a s n o t h a p p y w h e n M in i s te r C h a b a n e c o m m u n ic a te d th a t t o h im , d o
y o u h a v e a n y k n o w le d g e o f t h a t?
M R M A N Y I : I h a v e n o k n o w le d g e o f t h a t C h a i r.
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . M r M a n y i I w o u ld t h e n l i k e t o c o n c lu d e
o n th i s a s p e c t o f y o u r e v id e n c e i f I m a y, d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t – I t h in k i t
h a s b e e n b o rn e o u t b y y o u r t e s t im o n y to d a y th a t i t i s t h e P re s id e n t w h o
h a s th e – w h o m u s t d e c id e w h e th e r t o t r a n s fe r D i re c to r -G e n e ra l s .
M R M A N Y I : C o r re c t C h a i r.
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d I w o u ld l i k e to p u t t o y o u w h a t m y o b s e rv a t i o n s
a re i n s o fa r a s t h e fa c t s b e tw e e n th e 2 5 t h o f J a n u a ry 2 0 11 a n d th e 2 n d o f 10
F e b ru a ry 2 0 11 a re , t o g i v e y o u a n o p p o r tu n i t y t o c o m m en t t o t h e e x te n t
t h a t y o u w is h to d o s o , o r h a v e a n y k n o w le d g e o f t h e fa c t s o n th e b a s i s
o f w h ic h y o u m a y d i s p u te t h e m . T h e re i s e v id e n c e f r o m M r M a s e k o , M r
S im o n s a n d M r H lo n g w a n e th a t M in i s te r C h a b a n e w a s i n s t ru c te d b y
fo rm e r P re s id e n t Z u m a to re m o v e M r M a s e k o f r o m G C IS , d o y o u h a v e
a n y b a s i s t o r e fu te t h a t?
C H A IR P E R S O N : I ’m s o r r y, j u s t r e p e a t t h e q u e s t i o n .
A D V H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . I i n d i c a te d th a t t h e re w a s e v id e n c e f r o m M r
M a s e k o , M r S im o n s a n d M r H lo n g w a n e th a t M in i s te r C h a b a n e h a d b e e n
in s t ru c te d b y fo rm e r P re s id e n t Z u m a to re m o v e M r M a s e k o f r o m G C IS , 20
a n d m y q u e s t i o n to M r M a n y i w a s d o e s h e h a v e a n y i n fo rm a t io n th a t
w o u ld s h o w th a t t h a t e v id e n c e i s n o t c o r re c t?
C H A IR P E R S O N : I a m n o t s u re w h y h e w o u ld n e e d to i n d i c a te w h e th e r
h e a c c e p ts i t o r d o e s n ’ t a c c e p t t h e e v id e n c e a s c o r re c t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : C h a i r j u s t t o b e c le a r w h a t I w a s s e a rc h in g fo r i n t h e
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q u e s t i o n i t w a s w h e th e r h e h a d a n y i n fo rm a t io n th a t h e c o u ld s h a re w i th
u s t o i n d i c a te t h a t i t w a s i n c o r re c t . I t ’ s a lo n g th e l i n e s o f t h e
q u e s t i o n s p re v io u s l y.
C H A IR P E R S O N : M a y b e th e w a y to p u t i t w o u ld b e w h e th e r M r M a n y i
w h e th e r y o u h a v e a n y k n o w le d g e a s to w h o in i t i a te d M r M a s e k o ’s
t r a n s fe r, d o y o u h a v e a n y k n o w le d g e o f t h a t?
M R M A N Y I : N o – d i r e c t a n s w e r n o C h a i r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : O k a y, a l r i g h t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . I n r e la t i o n to y o u r m o v e i n to G C IS th e
. . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) . 10
M R M A N Y I : S o r r y C h a i r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A N Y I : C a n I j u s t m a k e s u re th a t t h a t n o i s n o t a n o to t h e
q u e s t i o n th a t s h e w a s a s k in g b e c a u s e th e q u e s t i o n s h e w a s a s k in g
. . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : N o , n o y o u w e re s a y in g n o to t h e q u e s t i o n I a m
a s k in g ?
M R M A N Y I : N o to t h e q u e s t i o n y o u ’ re a s k in g y e s , j a .
A D V H O F M E Y R : M r M a n y i i n o rd e r f o r y o u to b e t r a n s fe r re d i n to G C IS
th e d e c i s io n o f M in i s te r M d la d la n a to d i s m is s y o u h a d to b e re v e rs e d , 20
d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t?
C H A IR P E R S O N : H a n g o n , j u s t b e fo re th a t I h a v e b e e n g i v e n a n o te t o
t h e e f f e c t t h a t y o u r f l i g h t M r M a n y i h a s b e e n b o o k e d fo r 1 6 :0 0 s o th a t
a r ra n g e m e n t s e e m s to h a v e s u c c e e d e d .
M R M A N Y I : C h a i r t h e re i s s o m e th in g w ro n g w i th t h e C h a i r ’s m ic .
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C H A IR P E R S O N : O h i t i s o n , i s i t b e t t e r n o w ?
M R M A N Y I : J a , m u c h b e t te r y e s .
C H A IR P E R S O N : O k a y, I w a s s a y in g th a t I h a v e b e e n g i v e n a n o te
c o n f i rm in g th a t y o u r f l i g h t h a s b e e n b o o k e d fo r 1 6 :0 0 .
M R M A N Y I : T h a n k y o u C h a i r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. T h a n k y o u , w o u ld y o u l i k e t o re p e a t t h a t
q u e s t i o n M s H o fm e y r?
A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s i n o rd e r f o r M r M a n y i t o b e t r a n s fe r re d to G C IS a
d e c i s io n h a d to b e ta k e n to re v e rs e M in i s te r M d la d la n a ’s d e c i s io n to
d i s m is s y o u , d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t? 10
M R M A N Y I : I a c c e p t t h a t I h a d to b e b ro u g h t b a c k f r o m p re c a u t io n a ry
s u s p e n s io n C h a i r.
A D V H O F M E Y R : D o y o u a c c e p t t h a t y o u w e re v e ry a c t i v e l y e n g a g e d
to b e b ro u g h t b a c k f r o m a p o s i t i o n w h e re y o u w e re n o t e m p lo y e d b y th e
D e p a r tm e n t?
M R M A N Y I : I a c c e p t t h a t , I w a n te d m y p re c a u t io n a ry s u s p e n s io n to b e
l i f t e d a n d I w a s ta l k in g to e v e ry b o d y I c o u ld s p e a k to .
A D V H O F M E Y R : D o y o u a c c e p t t h a t u n t i l tw o d a y s b e fo re th e t r a n s fe r
t o o k p la c e y o u w e re n o t i n t h e e m p lo y o f t h e P u b l i c S e rv i c e ?
M R M A N Y I : I d o n ’ t h a v e a n y e v id e n c e o f t h a t C h a i r. 20
A D V H O F M E Y R : S o th e fa c t t h a t a d e c i s io n o n te rm in a t i o n n e e d e d to
b e w i th d ra w n o n th e 3 1 s t o f J a n u a ry d o e s n o t c o n s t i t u te t h a t e v id e n c e ?
M R M A N Y I : T h e 3 1 s t d e c i s io n b y M in i s te r O l i p h a n t , w h ic h h a p p e n e d ,
a n d I d id n ’ t h a v e th e d e ta i l s o f t h e d a te s a n d a l l o f t h a t a s t o w h e n s h e
w o u ld h a v e w r i t t e n a l e t t e r i n t h e f i r s t p la c e m a y b e to M in i s te r B a lo y i
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a n d a l l o f t h a t , I d id n ’ t h a v e th o s e d e ta i l s w i t h m e , b u t a l l I k n e w i s t h a t
f o l l o w in g m y d i s c u s s io n w i th M in i s te r C h a b a n e I n e e d e d to b e – w e l l i n
t h e f i r s t p la c e C h a i r m y u n d e rs ta n d to b e h o n e s t w a s th a t i f y o u w e re
o n p re c a u t io n a ry s u s p e n s io n y o u a re s t i l l i n t h e s y s te m , a n d th a t ’s w h y
y o u g e t p a id .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Yo u a re s t i l l e m p lo y e d ?
M R M A N Y I : Yo u a re s t i l l e m p lo y e d .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A N Y I : J a t h a t w a s m y re a l u n d e rs ta n d in g a n d th e n I k e e p s a y in g
th a t I h a v e e v id e n c e b e c a u s e I w a s g e t t i n g th e s a la r y, s o I h a v e 10
t a n g ib le e v id e n c e to b a c k u p m y c o n te n t i o n s o w h e n th e t r a n s fe r
h a p p e n e d I j u s t – y o u k n o w i t w a s a n o -b ra in e r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : M a y b e I s h o u ld p u t t h i s q u e s t i o n . I n o rd e r f o r y o u to
b e b ro u g h t b a c k to t h e D e p a r tm e n t , b e c a u s e I t h in k th a t ’s t h e w o rd in g ,
t e rm in o lo g y y o u u s e d , y o u s a id w h e n y o u I t h in k h a d a m e e t in g w i th
M in i s te r O l i p h a n t a t t h e S h e ra to n H o te l y o u w a n te d to b e b ro u g h t b a c k
to t h e D e p a r tm e n t . A m I c o r re c t s o fa r?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s c o r re c t C h a i r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s , t h e w i th d ra w a l o f t h i s d e c i s io n th a t h a d b e e n
ta k e n b y M in i s te r M d la d la n a d id y o u th in k i t m ig h t b e s o m e th in g to b e 20
d o n e in o rd e r f o r y o u to b e b ro u g h t b a c k ?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s C h a i r, I t h o u g h t t h e p re c a u t i o n a ry s u s p e n s io n h a d to
b e l i f t e d .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y th e re i s t h e p re c a u t i o n a ry s u s p e n s io n a n d
th e d e c i s io n to p u t y o u o n p re c a u t i o n a ry s u s p e n s io n w a s ta k e n m o n th s
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a h e a d o f t h e e n d o f O c to b e r 2 0 1 0 .
M R M A N Y I : Ye s C h a i r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : J a , a n d th e d e c i s io n b y M in i s te r M d la d la n a n o t t o
c o n f i rm y o u r a p p o in tm e n t o r t o d i s m is s y o u , w h a te v e r t h e te rm in o lo g y
i s t h a t o n e u s e s , s e e m s to h a v e h a p p e n e d ro u n d a b o u t t h e e n d o f
O c to b e r 2 0 1 0 .
M R M A N Y I : Ye s C h a i r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : S o th e re w a s th a t d e c i s io n th a t y o u k n o w – y o u k n e w
th a t M in i s te r M d la d la n a h a d ta k e n , y o u d id n ’ t t h in k h e h a d p o w e r t o
m a k e s u c h a d e c i s io n b u t h e h a d ta k e n i t , s o t h e q u e s t i o n th a t I a m 10
a s k in g w a s w h e th e r i n o rd e r f o r y o u to b e b ro u g h t b a c k to t h e
D e p a r tm e n t y o u a c c e p te d th a t t h a t d e c i s io n , m a y b e l e t ’s s a y th e
d e c i s io n th a t y o u m ig h t n o t h a v e re c o g n is e d , t h a t d e c i s io n m ig h t h a v e
to b e w i th d ra w n a n y w a y, i s t h a t s o m e th in g th a t – i s t h a t o n e o f t h e
th in g s th a t y o u th o u g h t m a y b e n e e d e d to b e d o n e i n o rd e r f o r i t t o b e
b ro u g h t b a c k ?
M R M A N Y I : J a y e s C h a i r a n d I u n d e rs to o d th e l a s t i n g d e c i s io n a
l e g i t im a te d e c i s io n I u n d e rs to o d i t t o b e th e p re c a u t i o n a ry s u s p e n s io n
o n e a n d s o to re m e d y th a t s o m e b o d y m u s t u n d o th a t .
C H A IR P E R S O N : O k a y th a n k y o u . 20
A D V H O F M E Y R : M r M a n y i a g re a t d e a l h a p p e n e d in t h o s e d a y s
b e tw e e n th e 2 5 t h o f J a n u a ry a n d th e 2 n d o f F e b ru a ry. I w o n d e r i f y o u
h a v e a n y i n s ig h t f o r t h e C o m m is s io n a s t o w h y s o m u c h h a d to h a p p e n
in t h a t u rg e n t s p a c e o f t im e , c a n y o u s h e d a n y l i g h t o n th a t?
M R M A N Y I : N o I h a v e n o i d e a C h a i r, I w a s j u s t – i t h a p p e n e d , f r o m
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m y s id e a n d I r e a l l y f e e l s o r r y a s to t h e c i r c u m s ta n c e s th a t M r M a s e k o
fo u n d h im s e l f i n b u t …
C H A IR P E R S O N : S o w h e n M r C h a b a n e s p o k e to y o u a b o u t tw o o p t i o n s
i n re g a rd to t r a n s fe r y o u w e re i n y o u r m in d o n p re c a u t io n a ry
s u s p e n s io n , i s t h a t r i g h t?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s C h a i r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : D o y o u k n o w w h a t h i s u n d e rs ta n d in g w a s , d o y o u
k n o w w h e th e r h e u n d e rs to o d y o u to b e i n t h e D e p a r tm e n t a c t i v e l y
w o rk in g a s D G o r d id h e u n d e rs ta n d th a t y o u w e re o n s o m e s u s p e n s io n
o r s p e c ia l l e a v e o r w h e th e r h e u n d e rs to o d th a t a d e c i s io n h a d b e e n 10
m a d e to f i r e y o u , d o y o u k n o w w h a t h i s o w n u n d e rs ta n d in g w a s a s h e
s p o k e to y o u ?
M R M A N Y I : A s h e s p o k e to m e , h e s p o k e to m e a s s o m e b o d y w h o i s
i n t h e s y s te m .
C H A IR P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R M A N Y I : H e s p o k e to m e a s s o m e b o d y w h o i s i n t h e s y s te m , s o i f I
w a s d i s m is s e d i n t h e t r u e s e n s e o f t h e w o rd th a t d i s c u s s io n w o u ld n o t
h a v e h a p p e n e d , s o i n m y v ie w h e s p o k e to m e w i th t h e u n d e rs ta n d in g
th a t i t i s o n e o f t h o s e fa l l o u ts a n d s o m e b o d y i s i n s u s p e n s io n b u t s t i l l
e m p lo y e d . 20
C H A IR P E R S O N : D o y o u k n o w w h e th e r h e d id h a v e a n u n d e rs ta n d in g
th a t y o u a n d M r M d la d la n a h a d h a d fa l l o u t?
M R M A N Y I : I t w a s p u b l i c C h a i r ; I a m s u re h e m u s t h a v e k n o w n th a t .
C H A IR P E R S O N : J a , b u t i n t h e d i s c u s s io n b e tw e e n th e tw o o f y o u i t d id
n o t a r i s e ?
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M R M A N Y I : I t w a s n o t a n i s s u e ; i t w a s n o t a n i s s u e a t a l l .
C H A IR P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u .
A D V H O F M E Y R : M r M a n y i I a m s t ru g g l i n g a l i t t l e b i t w i t h y o u r s e n s e
th a t M in i s te r C h a b a n e w o u ld h a v e k n o w n n o th in g a b o u t y o u r d i s m is s a l
a n d l e t m e e x p la in w h y, y o u r i n te ra c t i o n s w i th M in i s te r B a lo y i s i n c e th a t
l e t t e r o f t h e 2 9 t h o f O c to b e r r e fe r re d re p e a te d ly t o y o u r d i s m is s a l , y o u r
e f f o r t s t o t r y a n d g e t i t r e v e rs e d . T h e y a l s o re fe r re d w e s a w th e l e t t e r
b e tw e e n M in i s te r B a lo y i a n d M in i s te r O l i p h a n t r e c o g n is in g th a t t h a t
d e c i s io n w o u ld h a v e to b e w i th d ra w n b y h e r a n d th a t ’s t h e b a c k d ro p to
a t l e a s t s o m e e v id e n c e th a t w e h a v e re c e i v e d f r o m M r B a lo y i t h a t h e 10
h a d in te ra c te d w i th M in i s te r C h a b a n e a b o u t t h e p ro s p e c ts o f m o v e s . I s
i t c o n c e iv a b le t h a t M r B a lo y i w o u ld n ’ t h a v e c o m m u n ic a te d th a t t o
M in i s te r C h a b a n e ?
M R M A N Y I : J a , w e ’ re g o in g to g o b a c k to t a i l s p in C h a i r. I t h in k
t h e re ’s a c o l l o q u ia l u n d e rs ta n d in g o f d i s m is s a l , I h a v e s a id t h i s b e fo re ,
a n d th a t w a s th e g o in g te rm , b u t a l l t h o s e th a t u n d e rs ta n d th e l a w
p ro p e r l y k n e w th a t t h a t c o u ld n o t h a p p e n w i th o u t t h e P re s id e n t , s o i t
w a s j u s t s o m e u n la w fu l i s s u e th a t w a s o n th e ta b le t h a t c o u ld b e
re s o l v e d , a n d s o a n d s o , a n d th e n d id t h e y re s o l v e th e i r u n la w fu ln e s s
to re s to re t h in g s to n o rm a l i t y ? 20
A D V H O F M E Y R : M r M a n y i I w o u ld t h e n l i k e t o j u s t g e t y o u r c o m m e n t .
T h e re a re n u m e ro u s d o c u m e n ts i n t h e f i l e t h a t y o u w o u ld h a v e l o o k e d
a t o v e rn ig h t , i n d i c a t i n g s te p s ta k e n w i th in t h e D e p a r tm e n t o f L a b o u r t o
g i v e e f f e c t t o o u r t e rm in a t i o n , a re y o u a w a re o f t h o s e d o c u m e n ts ?
M R M A N Y I : N o I s a w th e m la s t n ig h t .
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A D V H O F M E Y R : I t w e n t a s f a r a s t o c o n f i rm th a t y o u h a d n o b o o k s
o u ts ta n d in g i n t h e l i b ra r y, d id y o u s e e th a t d o c u m e n t?
M R M A N Y I : J a I s a w th a t C h a i r.
A D V H O F M E Y R : S o w e re th e re i n te ra c t i o n s b e tw e e n y o u a n d th e
D e p a r tm e n t a b o u t t h e s e m a t te r s ?
M R M A N Y I : N o , I d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r a n y C h a i r.
A D V H O F M E Y R : M r M a n y i l e t ’s t h e n m o v e i f w e m a y to t h e e v id e n c e
o f M s W i l l i a m s C h a i r, u n le s s t h e re a re a s p e c ts f r o m y o u o n th i s
. . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : N o , n o th a t ’s f i n e . 10
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . M r M a n y i y o u h a v e g i v e n a v e ry, v e ry
d e ta i l e d a f f i d a v i t i n r e s p o n s e to M s W i l l i a m s , y o u c r i t i c i s e h e r o n – I
t h in k i t ’s i n e x c e s s o f t e n t im e s a s h a v in g l i e d to t h e C o m m is s io n a n d
y o u re c o m m e n d th a t c h a rg e s o f p e r ju r y b e b ro u g h t , i s t h a t a f a i r
s u m m a ry ?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : S o I u n d e rs ta n d y o u r a f f i d a v i t t o t a k e l y i n g to t h i s
C o m m is s io n v e ry s e r i o u s l y ?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : I w o u ld l i k e t o s ta r t w i t h a n a s p e c t o f t h e e v id e n c e o f 20
M s W i l l i a m s th a t r e la te s to . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : I ’m s o r r y M s H o fm e y r t o w h ic h b u n d le s h o u ld w e
m o v e n o w ?
A D V H O F M E Y R : R ig h t , s o w h a t y o u h a v e i s y o u h a v e a l r e a d y, N N 2
w h ic h i s M r M a n y i ’s r e s p o n s e to M s W i l l i a m s b u t w h a t I a l s o h a v e
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a v a i l a b le f o r y o u i s M s W i l l i a m s ’ o w n a f f i d a v i t a n d s o i f I c o u ld b e g
l e a v e to h a n d th a t u p . T h a t i s N N 6 .
C H A IR P E R S O N : O k a y, t h a n k y o u .
A D V H O F M E Y R : M r M a n y i h a s a c o p y a l r e a d y. C h a i r y o u m a y re c a l l
f r o m th e e v id e n c e o f M s W i l l i a m s th a t – w e l l i t w a s th e e v id e n c e o f M s
W i l l i a m s a n d th e n th e e v id e n c e o f M r M a n y i o n th e l a s t o c c a s io n , y o u
h a d re q u e s te d th a t t h e re b e fu r th e r i n fo rm a t io n o b ta in e d b y th e
C o m m is s io n to g i v e a n i n d i c a t i o n o f t h e c o m p a ra t i v e s p e n d b e tw e e n
v a r io u s n e w s p a p e rs a t t h e p e r t i n e n t t im e . T h e re a s o n w h y th e re w a s
s o m e in fo rm a t io n th a t M r M a n y i h a d p ro v id e d to t h e C o m m is s io n , b u t i t 10
b e c a m e u n c le a r a s t o t h e a m o u n ts t h a t w e re b e in g p a id t o N e w s
H o u s e s a s a c o n g lo m e ra te a s d i s t i n c t f r o m th e v a r io u s n e w s p a p e rs
t h e m s e lv e s , s o th a t w a s o n e th in g y o u re q u e s te d , i t w a s th e G C IS
s p e n d a n d th a t ’s a n d th a t ’s a s p e c t t h a t M s W i l l i a m s ta k e s u p i n h e r
a f f i d a v i t .
O n th e l a s t o c c a s io n th a t M r M a n y i g a v e e v id e n c e h e w a s a l s o
a s k e d a b o u t h i s s u p p o r t f o r t h e N e w A g e a n d h e g a v e e v id e n c e th e re
a n d y o u re p e a te d i t i n y o u r a f f i d a v i t i n r e s p o n s e to M s W i l l i a m s ’
a f f i d a v i t , i f I c o u ld ta k e y o u th e re , i t i s i n N N 2 a t p a g e 2 1 .
M r M a n y i i f y o u w i l l j u s t r e a d w h a t y o u s a y i n y o u r a f f i d a v i t a t 20
p a ra g ra p h 6 3 o n p a g e 2 1 .
M R M A N Y I : O k a y th e th ru s t o f m y a rg u m e n t f o r t h e N e w A g e w a s
v a lu e fo r m o n e y b a s e d o n q u a n tu m d i s s e m in a t i o n a n d th e i r a n t i - h o s t i l e
y e t b a la n c e d p o s tu re to w a rd s g o v e rn m e n t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n fu r th e r d o w n o n th a t p a g e a t p a ra g ra p h 6 5
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s o r t o f tw o th i r d s i n to t h a t p a ra g ra p h y o u re c o rd th e re fo r G C IS
c o m m u n ic a t i o n i s s e rv e d e l i v e ry. I f g o v e rn m e n t m e s s a g e s a re n o t
r e a c h in g c o m m u n i t i e s t h e n G C IS i s n o t d o in g i t s j o b , t h a t ’s y o u r
e v id e n c e , i s t h a t c o r re c t?
M R M A N Y I : T h a t ’s c o r re c t C h a i r.
A D V H O F M E Y R : I n y o u r e v id e n c e o n th e 2 6 t h o f N o v e m b e r, l a s t y e a r,
y o u g a v e a n e x p la n a t i o n a b o u t w h y ta rg e t m a rk e ts a re im p o r ta n t , d o
y o u re c a l l t h a t?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s C h a i r.
A D V H O F M E Y R : A s I h a v e th a t e v id e n c e y o u s a id t h a t – i t w a s q u i t e 10
a n in te re s t i n g w a y to p u t i t , y o u s a id D e p a r tm e n ts d o n o t a d v e r t i s e
b e c a u s e th e y a re b o re d , y o u s a id t h e y a d v e r t i s e b e c a u s e th e y w a n t t o
c o m m u n ic a te a p a r t i c u la r m e s s a g e to c e r ta in p e o p le t o s a y w e w a n t
t h i s m e s s a g e to g o to t h i s t a rg e t m a rk e t , d o y o u re c a l l t h a t e v id e n c e ?
M R M A N Y I : J a I r e c a l l t h a t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : J u s t f o r t h e re c o rd C h a i r i t i s a t p a g e 1 2 9 o f t h e
t r a n s c r i p t o f t h e 2 6 t h o f N o v e m b e r. M r M a n y i w i th t h a t b a c k d ro p i n
p la c e I w a n t t o m a k e s u re t h a t y o u a n d I a re o n th e s a m e p a g e a b o u t
o n e o r tw o a s p e c ts , c i r c u la t i o n o f n e w s p a p e rs i s d i f f e re n t t o t h e i r
r e a d e rs h ip , d o w e a g re e o n th a t? 20
M R M A N Y I : Ye s s u re .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d th e A u d i t B u re a u o f C i r c u la t i o n c o l l o q u ia l l y
r e fe r re d to a s A B C , d e a ls w i th c i r c u la t i o n , c o r re c t?
M R M A N Y I : T h a t ’s c o r re c t C h a i r.
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d th a t i s d i s t i n c t f r o m re a d e rs h ip w h ic h I w a n t t o
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c o m e to i n a m o m e n t . I w a n t t o j u s t i n d i c a te t o y o u th a t i n t h e e v id e n c e
o f l a s t w e e k b e fo re th e C o m m is s io n th e re w a s a n a f f i d a v i t e n te re d f r o m
A B C , w h ic h i n d i c a te d th a t T N A w a s n e v e r a m e m b e r o f A B C n o r
a c c re d i t e d , d o e s th a t a c c o rd w i th y o u r k n o w le d g e ?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s , c o r re c t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d a s I u n d e rs to o d y o u r p re v io u s e v id e n c e T N A h a d
re l i e d o n i t s o w n a u d i to r s t o p ro v id e c i r c u la t i o n n u m b e rs , i s t h a t
c o r re c t?
M R M A N Y I : T h a t ’s c o r re c t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d d id y o u re l y o n th o s e f i g u re s w h e n y o u g a v e 10
s u p p o r t t o p la c in g a d v e r t i s e m e n ts i n t h e T N A ?
M R M A N Y I : C h a i r l e t m e p u t i t t h i s w a y, t h e d a y to d a y o p e ra t i o n s
th a t ’s w h y p a r t o f t h e re c o m m e n d a t io n s I h a d m a d e to t h i s C o m m is s io n
i s t h a t t h e y s h o u ld i n v i t e t h e g u y w h o w a s d o in g th e a c tu a l j o b , w h o i s
D o n a ld D ip h o k o , t h a t i s t h e m e d ia b u y e r, h e i s t h e g u y th a t m a k e s th i s
k in d o f a c a l l a n d d o e s th a t . H e re I a m ta l k in g a s th e h e a d o f
d e p a r tm e n t s u p p o r t i n g w h a t m y p e o p le a re d o in g a s i t w e re , t h a t ’s w h a t
I w a s d o in g , s o w h a te v e r t h e y w e re d o in g th e n i t t y -g r i t t y o f t h o s e th in g s
i s d o n e a t a d i f f e re n t l e v e l b u t o v e ra l l I s u p p o r t w h a t t h e y w e re d o in g ,
b u t I w a s – t h e re w a s n o t a d a y w h e re I w e n t t o s ig n th a t t h i s m u s t g o 20
l e f t , t h i s m u s t g o r i g h t , n o t a d a y th a t I d id t h a t , b u t I k n e w th a t i t w a s
d o n e a t a d i f f e re n t l e v e l a n d I w a s s u p p o r t i v e o f w h a t w a s h a p p e n in g
th e re .
A D V H O F M E Y R : W o u ld i t c a u s e y o u c o n c e rn i f y o u u n d e rs to o d th a t
t h a t m e d ia b u y in g d e p a r tm e n t w i th in G C IS w a s re l y in g o n n o n -
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a c c re d i t e d c i r c u la t i o n f i g u re s f r o m a p u b l i c a t i o n ?
M R M A N Y I : N o I w o u ld n ’ t b e c o n c e rn e d C h a i r b e c a u s e I u n d e rs ta n d
th e i n d u s t r y. I w o u ld n ’ t b e c o n c e rn e d a t a l l b e c a u s e f i r s t l y y o u n e e d to
– p e o p le n e e d to u n d e rs ta n d th a t t h i s A B C i s s o m e th in g ru n b y c a l l i t
m e d ia c a r te l s o t o s p e a k . I n S o u th A f r i c a t h e re i s o n l y t h e b ig f o u r i n
m e d ia . S o th e s e a re t h e p e o p le t h a t d o th i s a n d th i s t h in g a c tu a l l y
C h a i r h a s g o t s e r i o u s im p l i c a t i o n s fo r t h o s e th a t w a n t t o g e t i n to t h e
m e d ia s p a c e b e c a u s e w h a t h a p p e n s C h a i r t h e y s i t t h e re , t h e b ig f o u r,
y o u r T IS A B la c k s ta r, t h e y h a v e g o t a n e w n a m e n o w, a n d y o u r C a x to n
a n d y o u r N a s p e rs a n d th e re ’s a n i n d e p e n d e n t g ro u p a s w e l l , s o t h e re ’s 10
f o u r o f t h e s e g ro u p s , t h e y b a s i c a l l y r u n th e s h o w, e v e ry b o d y – s o w h a t
t h e y d o w i th t h e s e a u d i te d f i g u re s o f t h e i r s , t h a t f i g u re b e c o m e s a –
s o m e th in g th a t a m e d ia b u y in g h o u s e u s e s to d e c id e w h e re to p la c e
a d s a n d s o o n , a n d d e p e n d in g o n w h a t c o m e s o u t o f t h e re a l s o ta l k s t o
t h e p r i c e , t h e ra te c a rd th a t t h e y c h a rg e fo r t h a t p a r t i c u la r a d v e r t , s o
w h a t t h i s t h in g d o e s i s t h a t i f a n e w p la y e r c o m in g i n y o u d o n ’ t h a v e
e n o u g h o f t h e c i r c u la t i o n to b e a b le t o b e a m e m b e r o f t h i s e l i t e g ro u p
a n d n o w y o u h a v e g o t m e d ia b u y e rs t h a t a re s i t t i n g a n d a l l t h e y w a n t t o
d e a l w i t h i s t h e e l i t e a n d y e t w e ’v e g o t a g o v e rn m e n t p o s i t i o n t h a t
w a n ts t o b ro a d e n a n d I h a v e m a d e th i s p o in t b e fo re t h a t g o v e rn m e n t i s 20
s o s e r io u s a b o u t h e lp in g m e d ia th a t g o v e rn m e n t e v e n h a v e a m e d ia
d e v e lo p m e n t a g e n c y, M D D A , t h a t i s m e a n t t o e n c o u ra g e a l l o f t h o s e
p e o p le t h a t a re i n t h e M D D A C h a i r a re n o t m e m b e rs o f A B C , b u t w e
a d v e r t i s e w i th t h e m .
S o i f m y – i f t h e t e a m I u s e d to l e a d w a n te d to a d v e r t i s e t o
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p e o p le t h a t a re n o t i n A B C I w o u ld e n c o u ra g e th a t b e c a u s e th a t w o u ld
g ro w m a n y v o i c e s , o n e m e s s a g e , m a n y v o i c e s u s e d to b e th e m o t to , s o
j a I w o u ld n o t h a v e a p ro b le m w i th t h a t a t a l l .
A D V H O F M E Y R : M r M a n y i m y u n d e rs ta n d in g o f t h e p ro c e s s w i th A B C
i s t h a t y o u b e c o m e a m e m b e r, y o u h a n d o v e r y o u r i n fo rm a t io n a b o u t
c i r c u la t i o n i t i s i n te r ro g a te d b y A B C a n d th e n y o u g e t a c e r t i f i c a te o f
c i r c u la t i o n . I s y o u r u n d e rs ta n d in g th e s a m e a s m in e ?
M R M A N Y I : J a , t h a t ’s c o r re c t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : W h y c o u ld t h e re p o s s ib l y b e a p ro b le m fo r a n e w
e n t ra n t t o b e c o m e a m e m b e r, h a n d o v e r i t s c i r c u la t i o n f i g u re s , h a v e 10
t h e m a u d i te d b y th e a c c re d i t e d b o d y a n d th e n g e t a c e r t i f i c a te
c o n f i rm in g th e i r c i r c u la t i o n ?
M R M A N Y I : I t i s a n e le c t i o n th a t y o u m a k e to b e p a r t o f t h a t g ro u p
C h a i rp e rs o n , i t i s a n e le c t i o n th a t y o u m a k e , s o i f y o u d e c id e th a t y o u
w i l l h a v e y o u r f i g u re a u d i te d d i f f e re n t l y t h e re i s n o l a w th a t s a y s y o u
m u s t u s e A B C , i t i s y o u r d e m o c ra t i c r i g h t n o t t o u s e th e m . T h e re i s n o
l a w.
A D V H O F M E Y R : N o i n d e e d i t i s t h e re c o g n is e d i n d u s t r y b o d y th o u g h
i s i t n o t?
M R M A N Y I : L i k e m a n y a re . I m e a n e v e n a u d i t o r s a re re c o g n is e d . 20
A D V H O F M E Y R : S o d id y o u e v e r m a k e a n y e n q u i r i e s a s to t h e
i n fo rm a t io n f r o m T N A’s a u d i to r s t h a t w e re b e in g s u p p l i e d to G C IS ?
M R M A N Y I : J a , s e e th i s i s a n o th e r o p e ra t i o n a l i s s u e C h a i r t h a t
s o m e b o d y a t t h a t l e v e l t h e y w i l l d o a d e a l w i th t h o s e n i t t y -g r i t t i e s b u t I
w o u ld k n o w th a t a s t h e y d o th e s e th in g s th e y d o th o s e c h e c k s , s o th a t ’s
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d o n e a t a d i f f e re n t l e v e l , I d id n ’ t d o th a t p e rs o n a l l y, b e c a u s e i t w a s a
d e le g a te d a u th o r i t y, s o s o m e b o d y D D G le v e l o r C h ie f D i re c to r l e v e l w i l l
b e d o in g th a t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : I f y o u w e re to b e to ld t h a t n o a t t e m p t h a d b e e n m a d e
to o b ta in t h o s e a u d i te d f i g u re s p r i o r t o p la c in g o f a d v e r t i s e m e n ts b y
G C IS in T N A w o u ld t h a t c a u s e y o u c o n c e rn ?
M R M A N Y I : N o t e v e n c h e c k th e a u d i te d f i g u re s ?
A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
M R M A N Y I : J a , t h a t w o u ld c a u s e c o n c e rn y e s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : O k a y l e t ’s m o v e to t h e a u d i t e d f i g u re s w h e n th e y 10
m ig h t h a v e b e e n a v a i l a b le . I s i t n o t t h e ro le o f a n i n d e p e n d e n t b o d y
l i k e A B C to b e a b le t o i n te r ro g a te w h a te v e r t h e a u d i to r s a re h a n d in g
o v e r a s a l l e g e d s a le s n u m b e rs , i s t h a t n o t a ro le t h a t a n i n d e p e n d e n t
a c c re d i t a t i o n b o d y p la y s ?
M R M A N Y I : N o , t h e y d o th a t f o r t h e i r m e m b e rs C h a i r, t h e y d o n ’ t d o
th a t f o r e v e ry b o d y o n th e s t re e t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : B u t u n le s s y o u a re g o in g to a n i n d e p e n d e n t b o d y to
g e t t h a t c e r t i f i c a te t h e n w h e n y o u d e c id e to p la c e s p e n d w i th T N A a l l
y o u w o u ld b e re l y in g o n i s t h e s a le s n u m b e rs th a t c o m e o u t o f t h e
a u d i t e d f i n a n c ia l s ta te m e n ts o f t h a t b u s in e s s , i s t h a t c o r re c t? 20
M R M A N Y I : N o , n o w h a t t h e a u d i to r s a u d i t i s t h e p r i n t - r u n w h ic h i s
t h e s a m e a s l i k e c i r c u la t i o n , s o th a t i s w h a t t h e y w o u ld a u d i t , s o i f
s o m e b o d y i f a r e g i s te re d a u d i t o r s a id t h e y s ig n o f f o n th e s e a re t h e
n u m b e rs t h o s e a re t h e n u m b e rs .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A re y o u a w a re th a t f r e e b ie s , n e w s p a p e rs th a t a re
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h a n d e d o u t f o r f r e e , s h o u ld n ’ t b e c o u n te d i n t h e c i r c u la t i o n n u m b e rs ?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s I a m a w a re b e c a u s e th e y – t h e re i s a p r i c e i s s u e a n d
y o u s e e th i s i s – I a m . . . ( i n d i s t i n c t ) t o r a i s e th i s M s H o fm e y r b e c a u s e
th i s i s p a r t o f t h e b u s in e s s m o d e l t h a t a re i n p la c e . N o w y o u f i n d th a t
a n o rg a n is a t i o n l e t ’s s a y l i k e T N A h a s g o t t h a t u n d e rs to o d th a t t h e y
m u s t a s s i s t g o v e rn m e n t a s a p a r tn e r t o s p re a d th e w o rd a b o u t
g o v e rn m e n t w o rk , s o m e o f t h e i r c o p ie s w o u ld b e s o ld , s o m e w o u ld b e
s o ld o n s u b s c r ip t i o n a n d s o m e w o u ld b e s o ld o n th e c o rn e r a n d a c tu a l l y
w h e n y o u s a y f r e e b ie s I a m n o t e v e n a w a re th a t t h e y w e re g i v in g
f r e e b ie s , b u t t h e y w o u ld m a k e s u re th a t t h e re i s a s w id e a c i r c u la t i o n 10
a s p o s s ib le , j a , i n f a c t t h e y w o u ld a c tu a l l y e v e n l e a v e th e m a t t h e
a i r p o r t s o m e o f t h e m , a n d a l l o f t h a t j a s o th e i r a im w a s to m a k e s u re
th a t t h e m e s s a g e g o e s o u t t h e re .
A D V H O F M E Y R : M r M a n y i t h e re h a s b e e n q u i te e x te n s i v e e v id e n c e
b e fo re t h i s C o m m is s io n th a t T N A , I h a ve u s e d th e c o l l o q u iu m f re e b ie s ,
b u t t h a t t h e y w e re m a k in g a v a i l a b le t o S ta te O w n e d E n t i t i e s a n d
d e p a r tm e n ts n u m e ro u s f r e e c o p ie s o f t h e T N A , w e re y o u n o t a w a re o f
t h a t?
M R M A N Y I : I u n d e rs to o d th o s e to b e s u b s c r ip t i o n s C h a i r, n o t
f r e e b ie s . 20
A D V H O F M E Y R : N o th e e v id e n c e i s t h a t t h e y w e re fo r f r e e .
M R M A N Y I : N o y o u s e e o n e o f t h e re a s o n s C h a i r w h e n I t o o k o v e r
t h a t k i l l e d T N A i s b e c a u s e th e b ig s u b s c r ib e r, F re e S ta te a n d o th e rs ,
s to p p e d s u b s c r ib in g , s o th a t s to p p e d th e m o n e y f l o w s o th a t w a s o n e o f
t h e k i l l e r p u n c h e s a s i t w e re , s o y o u r u n d e rs ta n d in g a n d m in e a re n o t
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t h e s a m e .
A D V H O F M E Y R : R ig h t , i f y o u w e re to b e to ld t h a t a s a m a t te r o f f a c t
t h e T N A w a s d i s t r i b u t i n g fo r f r e e n u m e ro u s o f t h e i r n e w s p a p e rs w o u ld
y o u th e n a c c e p t t h a t r e l y in g o n a u d i te d f i g u re s th a t h a v e th e i r b a s e
o n l y i n a p r i n t r u n w o u ld n o t b e a c c u ra te .
M R M A N Y I : N o th a t d o e s n ’ t m a k e s e n s e , w h a t y o u a re s a y in g . I f
C h a i rp e rs o n I h a v e p r i n te d 1 0 0 c o p ie s , w h e th e r I h a v e s o ld t h e m o r I
h a v e g i v e n th e m a w a y I h a v e p r i n te d 1 0 0 c o p ie s , s o w h a t d i f f e re n c e
w a s i t m a k e w h e th e r I h a v e s o ld t h e m o r I h a v e g i v e n th e m a w a y, I
h a v e p r i n te d 1 0 0 c o p ie s . 10
A D V H O F M E Y R : M r M a n y i i t m a t te r s b e c a u s e o f a n a n s w e r y o u g a v e
e a r l i e r. Yo u a c c e p te d e a r l i e r t h a t c i r c u la t i o n s h o u ld n o t i n c lu d e
n e w s p a p e rs t h a t a re g i v e n fo r f r e e , d o y o u re m e m b e r g i v in g th a t
a n s w e r?
M R M A N Y I : T h a t ’s h o w I w a s n o t – y e s I g a v e th a t a n s w e r, t h a t ’s h o w
th e y m e a s u re c i r c u la t i o n b u t h e re w e a re ta l k in g a b o u t t h e p r i n t - r u n , I
a m a n s w e r in g a d i f f e re n t q u e s t i o n n o w, t h a t w h a t i s t h e v e ra c i t y o f
c i r c u la t i o n o f s o m e w h e re th a t g i v e s th in g s a w a y, t h in g s fo r f r e e , n o w
m y a n s w e r i s t h a t – a n d to c o m p le te t h a t t h e re fo re w h a t i s t h e
re l i a b i l i t y o f a u d i t e d v e r s u s A B C , s o th e a n s w e r t o t h a t i s s im p ly t h a t i f 20
y o u h a v e p r i n te d 1 0 0 c o p ie s y o u c a n g i v e a l l 1 0 0 c o p ie s a w a y, t h e y
d o n ’ t s to p c i r c u la t i n g i n t h e c o m m u n i t y b e c a u s e y o u g a v e th e m fo r f r e e ,
s o th e fa c t t h a t t h e o th e r s y s te m re q u i re s p e o p le to p a y i s n e i t h e r h e re
n o r t h e re .
C H A IR P E R S O N : B u t i s n ’ t t h e p o s i t i o n a b o u t c i r c u la t i o n , i s n ’ t t h e
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q u e s t i o n , i s n ’ t t h e s ig n i f i c a n c e o f c i r c u la t i o n n u m b e rs th a t w h o e v e r
w a n ts t o k n o w w h a t a n e w s p a p e r ’s c i r c u la t i o n i s w a n ts t o k n o w h o w
m u c h o n d e m a n d th a t n e w s p a p e r i s t o t h e p u b l i c , a n d th a t i f p e o p le
s p e n d m o n e y to b u y i t , t h e y m u s t b e a t ta c h in g a c e r ta in va lu e to t h e
n e w s p a p e r t h a t t h e y a re p re p a re d to s p e n d m o n e y, a n d th a t t h e
d i f f i c u l t y i f o n e s im p ly t a k e s th e n u m b e r o f n e w s p a p e rs t h a t h a v e b e e n
p r in te d i s t h a t – t h a t m ig h t n o t r e f l e c t i t s t r u e d e m a n d i f a c tu a l l y i t ’ s n o t
t h a t p e o p le b u y X n u m b e r o f n e w s p a p e rs , c o p ie s p e r d a y o r w h a te v e r
f r o m th e n e w s p a p e r b u t i t ’ s j u s t g i v e n fo r f r e e , i s n ’ t t h a t t h e
s ig n i f i c a n c e ? 10
M R M A N Y I : J a .
C H A IR P E R S O N : O r d o I m is u n d e rs ta n d s o m e th in g ?
M R M A N Y I : J a , l e t m e e x p la in t h i s C h a i r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s . ,
M R M A N Y I : Yo u s e e th i s w h o le d e b a te i s n o t a m e c h a n ic a l d e b a te ,
b e c a u s e i f t h e C h a i r ’s t h e o ry w a s c o r re c t t h e n e v e ry b o d y w o u ld b e
a d v e r t i s i n g i n t h e D a i l y S u n . T h e D a i l y S u n i s t h e b ig g e s t n e w s p a p e r
i n t o w n , i t i s t h e b ig g e s t – t h e re i s n o b o d y a s w e s p e a k th a t c o m p e te s
w i th t h e D a i l y S u n i n t e rm s o f c i r c u la t i o n , b u t . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : N o , t h a t ’s q u i t e i n te re s t i n g . 20
M R M A N Y I : Ye s , i t ’ s t h e D a i l y S u n b u t i t i s n o t e v e ry b o d y th a t
a d v e r t i s e s i n t h e D a i l y S u n d e s p i te t h a t i t i s t h e b ig g e s t n e w s p a p e r,
a n d th e re a s o n i s b e c a u s e o f t h e p ro f i l e o f t h e p e o p le th a t a re
i n te re s te d i n t h e D a i l y S u n a re n o t n e c e s s a r i l y t h e p ro f i l e o f t h e p e o p le
t o w h o w e w a n t t o g o a n d e x p la in a p a r t i c u la r c a s e l a w s to r y a n d s o o n ,
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t h e y a re n o t t h e t y p e o f p e o p le t h a t w o u ld d o th a t .
S o th e re fo re t h e i s s u e . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : L i k e a B u s in e s s D a y k in d o f . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
M R M A N Y I : L i k e a B u s in e s s D a y y e s , y e s .
C H A IR P E R S O N : O r t h e S ta r.
M R M A N Y I : T h a t ’s r i g h t C h a i r, b e c a u s e th e re ’s – t h e re ’s tw o e le m e n ts
t o t h i s , t h e re ’s n u m b e rs a n d th e re ’s a t a rg e t m a rk e t , s o t h e
p s y c h o g ra p h ic s i s p a r t o f t h i s t h in g , s o p e o p le t h a t u s e th e s e n u m b e rs
b l i n d l y m is s t h a t t h in g . I n m y la s t t e s t im o n y I u s e d th e w o rd s p i l l a g e
fo r i n s ta n c e , t h a t y o u c a n g o a n d p u t v e ry v a lu a b le i n fo rm a t io n b u t i t 10
w i l l l a n d i n t h a t a re n e v e r, e v e r g o in g to u s e i t , b e c a u s e i t i s n o t i n
t h e i r i n te re s t , s o w h e n y o u d o a d v e r t i s i n g w i th a p a r t i c u la r n e w s p a p e r
y o u m u s t k n o w w h o a re th e t y p e o f p e o p le t h a t r e a d th a t p a r t i c u la r
n e w s p a p e r, t h a t ’s y o u r t a rg e t m a rk e t , s o t h a t ’s t h e e s s e n c e o f t h i s
t h in g , a n d w i th t h e N e w A g e th e i s s u e a s w e l l C h a i r i s t h a t I w h e n I w a s
th e re th e i s s u e w a s to – I h a d a p a r t i c u la r i n te re s t , m y i n te re s t w a s
g o v e rn m e n t i n te re s t , m y in te re s t w a s to d i s s e m in a te g o v e rn m e n t
i n fo rm a t io n .
N o w th e n th e re ’s p o s tu re b y t h e A B C c ro w d , t h e p o s tu re b y t h e
A B C c ro w d i s t h a t i f y o u w a n t t o c o m m u n ic a te a n y th in g ta k e a n a d v e r t 20
a n d s o o n , w e a re n o t g o in g to c o m m u n ic a te i t f o r y o u , s o I u s e d to
c o m p la in t h a t I w o u ld g o a n d re a d a p re s s s ta te m e n t o f 1 0 p a g e s a n d
th e n th e n e x t d a y I b u y a l l t h e s e n e w s p a p e rs t o s e e h o w m u c h o f t h a t
w a s c o v e re d , I ’ l l b e l i k e l y t o g e t o n e s e n te n c e , a n d th e b e a u ty o f t h e
N e w A g e w a s th a t t h e y u n d e rs to o d th a t t h e y n e e d to d i s s e m in a te t h i s
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i n fo rm a t io n , s o th e re fo re i t ’ s s o m e th in g th a t y o u w o u ld e m b ra c e , t h a t
h e re i s a n e w s p a p e r t h a t i s w i l l i n g t o f u l f i l t h e s e rv i c e d e l i v e ry o f t h e
G C IS w h ic h i s d i s s e m in a t i o n o f i n fo rm a t io n , w h e n o th e rs w h e n th e y
c o m e to y o u th e y c o m e to y o u re a d y w i th t h e i r o w n q u e s t i o n s , d o e s n ’ t
m a t te r w h a t y o u s a y, t h e y j u s t t o le ra te y o u , r e a d y o u te n p a g e s a n d
th e y c o m e a n d a s k y o u a b o u t s o m e th in g th a t h a p p e n e d l a s t w e e k o r
s o m e o th e r s c a n d a l o r w h a te v e r, a n d th e y re p o r t a b o u t h o w y o u
re s p o n d e d to t h a t o r w h a te v e r, s o t h a t ’s w h a t t h e y a re i n te re s te d i n a n d
th i s i s w h a t h a p p e n s i n t h e m e d ia s p a c e .
S o w h e n I s a y th e e d i t o r i a l a p p ro a c h o f T N A w a s i n l i n e w i th 10
w h a t g o v e rn m e n t r e a l l y i s y e a rn in g fo r, I s a y th a t e v e n to d a y, I t h in k
g o v e rn m e n t m is s e s T N A e v e n to d a y.
A D V H O F M E Y R : M r M a n y i . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : M s H o fm e y r?
A D V H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g ie s , t h a n k y o u C h a i r. T h e C h a i r ’s q u e s t i o n
re la te d to c i r c u la t i o n a n d y o u w i l l r e c a l l w h e n w e b e g a n th i s d i s c u s s io n
I c o n f i rm e d w i th y o u th a t c i r c u la t i o n i s d i f f e re n t t o re a d e rs h ip , d o y o u
re c a l l t h a t?
M R M A N Y I : I m a k e th a t s a m e p o in t i n m y s u b m is s io n .
A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s , s o y o u r a n s w e r t o t h e C h a i r a t t h e m o m e n t h a s 20
m o v e d in to re a d e rs h ip w h ic h I a b s o lu te l y a c c e p t i s e n t i r e l y – i t i s
c r i t i c a l t o k n o w w h a t t h e re a d e rs h ip o f a n e w s p a p e r i s i n o rd e r t o
e s ta b l i s h t h a t y o u ’ re g e t t i n g to t h e ta rg e t m a rk e t y o u w a n t . S o ta k e
th a t a s g i v e n , b u t I w o u ld l i k e t o f o c u s o n c i r c u la t i o n , b e c a u s e th e
q u e s t i o n a t t h e m o m e n t i s w a s i t r e a s o n a b le t o p la c e a d v e r t i s e m e n ts i n
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t h e T N A w h e re th e y h a d n o a c c re d i t e d c i r c u la t i o n f i g u re s a n d th e o n l y
o f f e r i n g fo r c i r c u la t i o n th a t t h e y g a v e , i f t h e y d id g i v e i t t o G C IS , w a s
th e i n fo rm a t io n f r o m a u d i to r s b a s e d o n p r i n t r u n s a n d th a t a s I
u n d e rs ta n d i t w a s w h e re th e C h a i r ’s q u e s t i o n c a m e f r o m , b e c a u s e p r in t -
r u n s a re n o t g o in g to g i v e y o u a n i n d i c a t i o n o f t h e l e v e l o f d e m a n d fo r a
n e w s p a p e r i f t h e re ’s a s u b s ta n t i a l p o r t i o n o f t h o s e n e w s p a p e rs t h a t a re
b e in g d ro p p e d a t d e p a r tm e n ts a n d S O E ’s f o r f r e e .
L e t m e ju s t b e fo re I a s k th e q u e s t i o n g i v e y o u th e b a c k g ro u n d .
W e h a v e h a d e v id e n c e b e fo re , l a s t w e e k , f r o m M r P re to r i u s i n w h ic h h e
s a id t h e c h a l l e n g e w h e n th e y ’ re b e in g d ro p p e d o f f a t d e p a r tm e n ts a n d 10
s ta te i d e n t i t i e s i s y o u a c tu a l l y d o n ’ t k n o w i f p e o p le a re p i c k in g u p th e
n e w s p a p e r t o r e a d i t , b e c a u s e th e y h a v e n ’ t h a d a c a s h t r a n s a c t i o n
i n d i c a t i n g th e i r i n te re s t i n i t i s t h a t t h e y c o u ld b e p i c k in g i t u p to t a k e i t
h o m e to w ra p th e i r m o v in g g o o d s i n , s o m y q u e s t i o n to y o u M r M a n y i i s
w o u ld i t b e o f c o n c e rn to y o u i f G C IS w a s m a k in g d e c i s io n s to p la c e
a d v e r t i s e m e n ts w i th T N A in a s i t u a t i o n w h e re th e o n l y i n fo rm a t io n th e y
h a d a b o u t T N A c i r c u la t i o n w a s b a s e d p u re l y o n p r i n t - r u n f i g u re s ?
M R M A N Y I : N o I w o u ld n o t h a v e a p ro b le m fo r r e a s o n s e x p la in e d .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d th o s e re a s o n s re la te t o re a d e rs h ip , i s t h a t
c o r re c t? 20
M R M A N Y I : I t r e la te s t o re a d e rs h ip y e s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : R ig h t l e t ’s g o to re a d e rs h ip b e c a u s e I p u t i t t o y o u
M r M a n y i r e a d e rs h ip i s a s e p a ra te i s s u e f r o m c i r c u la t i o n .
M R M A N Y I : I k n o w, I k n o w, b u t T N A a l s o m e a s u re s re a d e rs h ip .
A D V H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d , s o l e t ’s g o to w h a t w a s k n o w n a t t h e t im e
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t h a t y o u to o k o v e r a t G C IS a b o u t t h e re a d e rs h ip o f T N A , a n d w e c a n
f i n d th a t i n M s W i l l i a m s ’ a f f i d a v i t , i t i s a n a n n e x u re th e re , a n d th a t
C h a i r i s i n t h e b u n d le t h a t h a s b e e n m a rk e d N N 6 .
F o r c o n v e n ie n c e C h a i r I s u b m i t t h a t i t b e e n te re d i n to t h e
re c o rd a s E x h ib i t N N 6 .
C H A IR P E R S O N : T h e l e v e r a r c h f i l e t h a t c o n ta in s M s M a ry M p h u m la
W i l l i a m s a f f i d a v i t d a te d . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
M R M A N Y I : P a g e
A D V H O F M E Y R : I f y o u w i l l j u s t w a i t f o r t h e C h a i r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : D a te d – d o y o u h a v e th e d a te s M s H o fm e y r? 10
A D V H O F M E Y R : I s h o u ld C h a i r, i f y o u w i l l g i v e m e o n e m o m e n t , I
t h in k i t w a s th e 2 2 n d o f F e b ru a ry, l e t m e ju s t c h e c k , I r e c a l l t h a t
b e c a u s e M r M a n y i m a d e re fe re n c e to i t .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s , d a te d 2 2 n d F e b ru a ry 2 0 1 9 i s t o b e m a rk e d
E x h ib i t N N 6 . J a .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a i r, a n d th e n i f w e c a n g o to p a g e 3 1 6
o f t h a t E x h ib i t N N 6 .
C H A IR P E R S O N : I s e e th e re a re b la c k a n d re d n u m b e rs m o re o r l e s s a t
t h e s a m e p la c e , d o w e s t i c k t o t h e re d n u m b e rs , p a g e n u m b e rs ?
A D V H O F M E Y R : C h a i r I d o n ’ t h a v e a v e rs io n w i th re d n u m b e rs , s o I 20
a m g o in g to h a v e to a s k m y – o h th e y ’ r e t h e s a m e , t h e y ’ r e t h e s a m e , s o
3 1 6 , y o u c a n u s e e i t h e r C h a i r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : I t d o e s l o o k l i k e i t ’s t h e s a m e n u m b e r, 3 1 6 y o u s a id ?
A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s , 3 1 6 i n d e e d . M r M a n y i a s I u n d e rs ta n d M s
W i l l i a m s ’ a f f i d a v i t t h i s i s a s u m m a ry th a t h a s b e e n p u t t o g e th e r o f t h e
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r e a d e rs h ip o f t h e To p Te n N e w s p a p e rs , a n d th e n th e T N A o v e r t h e
p e r io d s 2 0 1 0 , 2 0 11 , 2 0 1 2 a n d 2 0 1 3 , d o y o u u n d e rs ta n d th i s d o c u m e n t
i n t h e s a m e w a y a s I d o ?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s s u re .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t i s i n d i c a te d th e re i n s o fa r a s t h e N e w A g e
N e w s p a p e r i s c o n c e rn e d w h ic h i s i n t h e b o t to m l i n e o f t h e ta b le b e fo re
th a t s q u a re b o x . I n 2 0 1 0 i t i n d i c a te s th a t i t w a s n o t i n c lu d e d fo r
m e a s u re m e n t , i t s e e m s to m e th a t m a y h a v e to d o w i th t h e fa c t t h a t i t s
f i r s t n e w s p a p e r w a s o n l y p r i n te d o n th e 6 t h o f D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 0 , i s t h a t
c o r re c t? 10
M R M A N Y I : Ye s c o r re c t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : S o w h a t w e h a v e i n 2 0 11 re a d e rs h ip f o r N e w A g e i s
a n i n d i c a t i o n th a t i t i s n o t i n t h e To p Te n , t h e To p Te n a re t h o s e th a t
p ro c e e d e d a s I u n d e rs ta n d th i s p a g e , a n d th e n th e re ’s a 3 9 0 0 0
i n d i c a te d th e re w i th a n a s te r i s k a n d i f y o u g o to t h e a s te r i s k
e x p la n a t i o n a t t h e b o t to m o f t h e p a g e i t s a y s u n s ta b le a n d tw o
a s te r i s k s m e a n s h ig h l y u n s ta b le a n d th e n th e c o m m e n t t h e re i s :
“ L e s s th a n 4 0 re s p o n d e n ts c la im to h a v e re a d th e p a p e r,
t r e a te d w i th c a u t i o n fo r d e c i s io n m a k in g . ”
D o y o u s e e th a t? 20
M R M A N Y I : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : S o i f y o u h a d b e e n m a k in g th e d e c i s io n s i n G C IS
w h e th e r t o p la c e a d v e r t i s e m e n ts i n t h e N e w A g e i n 2 0 11 w o u ld i t h a v e
c a u s e d y o u c o n c e rn th a t t h o s e c o m p i l i n g t h e s e re a d e rs h ip s ta t i s t i c s
i n d i c a te d th a t t h e y w e re u n s ta b le f o r T N A , t h a t l e s s th a n 4 0
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r e s p o n d e n ts h a v e c la im e d to re a d th e n e w s p a p e r a n d th a t i t s h o u ld b e
t r e a te d w i th c a u t i o n fo r d e c i s io n m a k in g ?
M R M A N Y I : N o I w o u ld n o t b e c o n c e rn e d C h a i r, b e c a u s e i t ’s a n e w
n e w s p a p e r. I t h in k i t s ta r te d i n 2 0 1 0 , t h i s i s c o m p a r in g a p p le s t o p e a rs
s o i f y o u u n d e rs ta n d h o w b u s in e s s d e v e lo p s y o u w o u ld k n o w th a t t h e
f i r s t t h re e y e a rs a re t h e m o s t d i f f i c u l t y e a rs b u t i f y o u w e re to t a k e a
v ie w th a t a l l t h o s e th a t a re i n t h e d e v e lo p m e n t p h a s e m u s t n o t b e
s u p p o r te d th e n th e y w i l l n e v e r h a v e c o m p e t i t i o n i n t h i s c o u n t r y, t h i s i s
w h y I h a v e g o t a l l t h e s e m o n o p o l i e s , i t i s b e c a u s e o f t h i s k in d o f
a t t i t u d e to w a rd s n e w e n t ra n ts a s i t w e re . 10
To g o fu r th e r C h a i r j u s t t o t a l k t o t h e i s s u e o f t a rg e t m a rk e t i n g
g o v e rn m e n t h a s g o t 3 4 d e p a r tm e n ts m o re o r l e s s , a t a h ig h l e v e l o r
n a t i o n a l l e v e l , i f I w a s a n a d v e r t i s e r a n d I k n e w th a t t h e re i s a
g o v e rn m e n t m a g a z in e th a t a l l t h e D G ’s re a d , i t ’ s o n l y 3 4 D G ’s , i f I k n e w
th a t t h i s p u b l i c s e c to r, t h e m a g a z in e th e y c a l l p u b l i c s e c to r i f I k n e w
th a t t h e re ’s a p u b l i c s e c to r m a g a z in e th a t e v e ry D G h a s g o t o n th e i r
t a b le , t h e y re a d th i s m a g a z in e , i t m ig h t h a v e a c i r c u la t i o n o f 1 0 0 0 th i s
p u b l i c s e c to r m a g a z in e .
Yo u m ig h t h a v e a n o th e r b ig m a g a z in e o n th e o th e r s id e , c a l l i t
K o f f i e h u i s o r Yo u o r w h a te v e r y o u c a l l i t , i t h a s j u s t g o t a p r i n t - r u n , 20
c i r c u la t i o n w h a te v e r o f 1 0 0 0 0 0 b u t i t ’ s g o in g to b e s o m e – i t i s g o in g to
b e re a d b y h o u s e w iv e s e t c e te ra , p e o p le t h a t a re a t a p a r t i c u la r s p a c e .
H e re I a m a b u s in e s s m a n a n d I a m in te re s te d i n t h e a t t e n t i o n o f t h e
D G ’s , h e re i s a n e w s p a p e r t h a t i s – o r a m a g a z in e , t h a t i s r e a d b y a
1 0 0 0 p e o p le b u t w i t h in t h o s e th o u s a n d p e o p le 3 4 o f t h e m a re th e
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p e o p le w e a re re a l l y t a rg e t i n g , w h e re d o y o u th in k I a m g o in g to g o ?
I a m n o t g o in g to g o to t h i s b ig c i r c u la t i o n o f h o u s e w iv e s
m a g a z in e , I a m g o in g to g o to t h i s o n e , s o th i s i s t h e u n d e r s ta n d in g
th a t m u s t b e b ro u g h t o n b o a rd a b o u t n i c h e n e w s p a p e rs , a b o u t t a rg e t
m a rk e t i n g th a t w h e n y o u a d v e r t i s e , w h e n y o u h a v e a re la t i o n s h ip w i th
t h e n e w s p a p e r y o u h a v e i t w i t h t h e m b e c a u s e th e y – b e c a u s e th e y c a n
re a c h th e ta rg e t m a rk e t t h a t y o u a re l o o k in g fo r, s o j a .
S o th i s i s n o t To p Te n d o e s n o t s u rp r i s e m e b e c a u s e w e ’ re
d e a l i n g w i th o ld h a n d s i n t h e b u s in e s s , t h e s e a re n e w e n t ra n ts , y o u
c a n ’ t e x p e c t a n e w e n t ra n t t o ru s h i t u p to a s e r io u s n u m b e r o n th e f i r s t 10
t h re e y e a rs , s o th i s w a s j u s t t o b e e x p e c te d .
A D V H O F M E Y R : M r M a n y i I a c c e p t t h a t i n t h e f i r s t . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
M R M A N Y I : A n d to b e s u p p o r te d .
A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s , M r M a n y i I w o u ld l i k e t o s e p a ra te tw o th in g s i n
y o u r a n s w e r.
M R M A N Y I : H ’m m .
A D V H O F M E Y R : Yo u h a v e g i v e n a n a n s w e r t h a t s a y s n e w e n t ra n ts
n e e d to b e s u p p o r te d .
M R M A N Y I : C o r re c t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a t ’s o n e m a t te r. T h e s e p a ra te m a t te r i s w h e n 20
G o v e rn m e n t s p e n d s p u b l i c m o n e y to a d v e r t i s e i n n e w s p a p e rs , w h e th e r
i t i s g o in g to re a c h i t s t a rg e t m a rk e t , d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t t h o s e a re tw o
d i f f e re n t t h in g s ?
M R M A N Y I : C a n y o u re p h ra s e th a t o r r e p e a t t h a t?
A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s s u re . T h e re m ig h t b e tw o re a s o n s w h y
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g o v e rn m e n t s p e n d s p u b l i c m o n e y o n a d v e r t i s i n g , t h e f i r s t m ig h t b e
e x c lu s i v e l y t o s u p p o r t n e w e n t ra n ts , n o m a t te r w h o i s r e a d in g th e
n e w s p a p e r b u t t o g i v e t h e m a fo o t -u p , d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s .
M S H O F M E Y R : T h e re ’s a n o th e r re a s o n w h y g o v e rn m e n t m ig h t s p e n d
p u b l i c f u n d s o n n e w s p a p e rs a n d th a t i s b e c a u s e th e y w a n t t o r e a c h a
p a r t i c u la r t a rg e t m a rk e t , d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s , y e s I d o .
A D V H O F M E Y R : L e t ’s f o c u s o n th e l a t t e r, i f w e m a y, b e c a u s e y o u r
c o n s i s te n t e v id e n c e b e fo re th i s C o m m is s io n i s t h a t r e a c h in g y o u r t a rg e t 10
m a rk e t i s a c r i t i c a l c o m p o n e n t o f a d e c i s io n to s p e n d o n a d v e r t i s i n g , i s
t h a t c o r re c t?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : I f y o u a re d e a l i n g a d m i t t e d l y w i th a n e w s p a p e r n o t i n
t h e To p Te n , b u t a n e w s p a p e r w h o th e s o u rc e o f i n fo rm a t io n o n i t s
r e a d e rs h ip i n d i c a te s l e s s th a n 4 0 re s p o n d e n ts h a v e re a d a n d th a t i t
s h o u ld b e t r e a te d w i th c a u t i o n fo r d e c i s io n m a k in g , h o w c a n y o u h a v e
a n y c o n f i d e n c e a s to t h e ta rg e t m a rk e t y o u w a n t t o re a c h ?
M R M A N Y I : N o y o u s e e , y o u s e e C h a i r i t d e p e n d s , t h e i n d u s t r y i s
m o n o p o l i s e d , t h i s i n d u s t r y i s m o n o p o l i s e d , s o i f y o u h a v e g o t t h e 20
o w n e rs o f t h e i n d u s t r y t h a t a re m a k in g a l l k i n d s o f c o m m e n ts th a t
u n d e rm in e n e w p la y e rs y o u e x p e c t t h a t a n d y o u h a v e to w o rk w i th in
t h a t , b u t t h e n u b o f t h e a n s w e r i s t h a t i f w e h a v e a s i t u a t i o n
C h a i rp e rs o n w h e re th e i r s p e n d o n th i s p a r t i c u la r n e w s p a p e r w a s s o o u t
o f p ro p o r t i o n w i th t h e o th e rs t h e n w e c a n h a v e a d i s c u s s io n a n d I h a v e
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f i g u re s h e re th a t w o u ld s h o w y o u C h a i rp e rs o n , i n f a c t I s u b m i t t e d th i s
i s i n m y l a s t s u b m is s io n , a n d I h a v e g o t t h e m h e re , j u s t t o s h o w th a t i n
f a c t t h e g o v e rn m e n t d id n o t s to p w o rk in g w i th t h e – t h e s e m o n o p o l i e s ,
d id n o t s to p w o rk in g w i th N a s p e rs , w o rk in g w i th a l l o f t h e m , d id n o t
s to p , s o w e a re n o t h a v in g a d i s c u s s io n h e re a b o u t a g o v e rn m e n t t h a t
d e c id e d a t s o m e p o in t t o s to p d o in g b u s in e s s w i th e v e ry b o d y b u t f o c u s
o n th i s o n e , t h e y w e re g e t t i n g i n c o n te x t , i t ’ s p ro b a b ly a b o u t 4 % o r s o ,
a b i t m o re th a n 4 % o f t h e to ta l s p e n t o f e v e ry th in g , s o w e c a n b u rn
e n e rg y, b u t w e a re b u rn in g e n e rg y o n 4 % a n d th i s a rg u m e n t i s t h a t
s p e n d z e ro a n d s o o n , s o . . . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) . 10
A D V H O F M E Y R : M r M a n y i I w o u ld l i k e t o f o c u s o n th e 4 % a n d th e
ra t i o n a l i t y o f g o v e rn m e n t d e p a r tm e n ts , i n c lu d in g G C IS , p la c in g
a d v e r t i s e m e n ts i n a n e w s p a p e r t h a t h a s l e s s t h a n 4 0 re s p o n d e n ts
re a d in g i t a n d i n re s p e c t o f w h ic h th e re i s a c a u t i o n fo r d e c i s io n
m a k in g .
I s i t y o u r e v id e n c e th a t i t i s r a t i o n a l t o p la c e a n a d v e r t i s e m e n t
a n d s p e n d p u b l i c f u n d s i n t h e T N A i f t h a t i s w h a t y o u k n o w a b o u t i t s
r e a d e rs h ip ?
M R M A N Y I : I d o n ’ t k n o w th e re l i a b i l i t y o f t h e s e n o te s h e re , I d o n ’ t
k n o w th e re l i a b i l i t y o f t h e s e n o te s h e re . 20
A D V H O F M E Y R : D o y o u h a v e a b a s i s t o d i s p u te t h e m ?
M R M A N Y I : T h a t ’s y o u r f a v o u r i t e q u e s t i o n .
C H A IR P E R S O N : W e l l m a y b e i f y o u d o n ’ t k n o w th e re l i a b i l i t y o f t h o s e
n o te s M r M a n y i m a y b e y o u c o u ld d e a l w i t h t h e q u e s t i o n o n – a n d s a y
a s s u m in g th a t t h e y a re re l i a b le w h a t w o u ld b e y o u r a t t i t u d e , i f t h e y
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w e re to b e re l i a b le o r i f t h e y w e re re l i a b le a t t h e t im e .
M R M A N Y I : O k a y h e re C h a i rp e rs o n w e a re d e a l i n g w i th a c o m p a r i s o n
o f v e te ra n n e w s p a p e rs , c o m p a r in g th e m to a n e w e n t ra n t . T h e n e w
e n t ra n t i s l a u n c h e d in 2 0 1 0 – D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 0 , s o w e c a n e v e n d i s c o u n t
2 0 1 0 , b u t a l r e a d y I t h in k t h i s c o m p a r i s o n i t s e l f i s m a l i c i o u s , i n 2 0 1 0
th i s n e w s p a p e r t h e a m o u n t o f t im e th e y h a d w a s p ro b a b ly a c o u p le o f
w e e k s b e fo re e n d o f t h e y e a r, i t l a u n c h e d s o m e w h e re e n d o f D e c e m b e r
– s o m e w h e re i n D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 0 , t h i s n e w s p a p e r, s o th e n 2 0 11 , 2 0 1 2
a re t h e te e th in g y e a rs f o r t h i s n e w s p a p e r, s o a n y th in g th a t w o u ld b e
w r i t t e n th a t i s n o t c o m p l im e n ta ry i s t o b e e x p e c te d , b u t i f y o u a re g o in g 10
t o t a k e th a t t o h e a r t t h e n C h a i rp e rs o n y o u w i l l n e v e r h a v e n e w e n t ra n ts
s o th e s e k in d s o f c o m m e n ts y o u c a n e x p e c t t h e m f ro m n e w e n t ra n ts . I f
t h i s w a s th e c a s e to a n e s ta b l i s h e d th a t h a s b e e n th e re f o r y e a rs a n d
s o o n I w o u ld th e n g e t v e ry w o r r i e d b u t i f i t i s s a id t o a n e w e n t ra n t I
w i l l s a y o k a y y o u a re n o t t e l l i n g m e a n y th in g th a t I d id n ’ t e x p e c t , s o I
n o te a n d w e p ro c e e d .
A D V H O F M E Y R : M r M a n y i d o y o u th e n a c c e p t t h a t y o u r d e c i s io n to
p la c e a d v e r t i s i n g s p e n d w i th t h a t n e w s p a p e r i s t o s u p p o r t a n e w e n t ra n t
a n d i s n ’ t l i n k e d to g e t t i n g y o u r m e s s a g e to a d e s i re d ta rg e t m a rk e t .
M R M A N Y I : N o i t ’ s b o th , i t ’ s b o th , b e c a u s e to g e t t o t h e ta rg e t m a rk e t 20
y o u h a v e a n e n t ra n t t h a t h a s g o t a n a p p ro p r ia te s t r a te g y fo r t h a t t a rg e t
m a rk e t , t h e fa c t t h a t t h e re s t o f t h e c a r te l h a s g o t a d i f f e re n t v ie w i s
n o te d .
A D V H O F M E Y R : M r M a n y i y o u k e e p g i v in g a n a n s w e r t h a t i n d i c a te s a
c o m p a r i s o n w i th w h a t y o u ’v e d e s c r ib e d a s th e c a r te l o r t h e m o n o p o ly.
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I p re fa c e m y q u e s t i o n s , I a m n o t f o r p re s e n t p u rp o s e s i n te re s te d i n t h e
9 6 % , I a m in i n te re s te d i n t h e ra t i o n a l i t y o f t h e s p e n d o f t h e 4 % , I d o n ’ t
w a n t t o t a k e th i s p o in t f u r th e r, I p u t i t t o y o u th a t i t i s i r r a t i o n a l f o r
g o v e rn m e n t i n t h e fo rm o f G C IS to s p e n d m o n e y o n th e T N A i f i t h a s
l e s s th a n 4 0 re s p o n d e n ts re a d in g th e n e w s p a p e r a n d th e re ’s a c a u t i o n
fo r d e c i s io n m a k in g , d o y o u w a n t t o c o m m e n t o n th a t?
M R M A N Y I : J a , I d i s a g re e w i th y o u , I t h in k y o u r s u m m a ry i s d e v o id o f
t h e d e v e lo p m e n ta l a g e n d a o f g o v e rn m e n t , y o u r s u m m a ry i s d e v o id o f
t h e e x p e r ie n c e o f t h e n e w e n t ra n ts i n t e rm s o f b a r r i e r s i n to t h e
i n d u s t r y, s o th a t k in d o f p o s tu re i s t h e k in d o f p o s tu re th a t i s c a u s in g 10
h u g e in e q u a l i t i e s i n t h i s c o u n t r y b e c a u s e e v e ry o n e w a n ts y o u o n d a y 1
t o b e 1 0 0 m e te rs s p r in te r, n o b o d y w a n ts t o i n v e s t i n y o u a n d g ro w w i th
y o u .
S o w h a t w o u ld b e u s e fu l b y th o s e th a t w e re d o in g th i s i s t o g o
to t h e f i r s t 1 0 y e a rs – f i r s t t h re e y e a rs o f t h e s e p u b l i c a t i o n s a n d
c o m p a re th e m w i th t h i s p u b l i c a t i o n , t h a t w o u ld h a v e b e e n a u s e fu l
c o m p a r i s o n . T h i s c o m p a r i s o n g i v e n h e re i s a t o ta l l y u s e le s s
c o m p a r i s o n b e c a u s e y o u a re ta k in g v e te ra n n e w s p a p e rs a n d c o m p a r in g
th e m w i th a n e w s p a p e r – t h i s c o m p a r i s o n o n i t s o w n i s t o ta l l y i r r a t i o n a l
a n d d e v o id o f a n y l o g i c . 20
A D V H O F M E Y R : M r M a n y i I w o u ld t h e n l i k e t o m o v e to t h e q u e s t i o n o f
s p e n d o f T N A , a n d C h a i r a n d M r M a n y i y o u w i l l p i c k u p th e i n fo rm a t io n
th a t w a s s u p p l i e d b y M s W i l l i a m s a n d G C IS ’s re c o rd s a t p a g e 3 5 3 in
t h a t s a m e E x h ib i t N N 6 .
C H A IR P E R S O N : 3 5 3 ?
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A D V H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
C H A IR P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s I s e e w e a re a t 1 3 :3 0 , h o w a re w e d o in g ?
A D V H O F M E Y R : I a m o p t im is t i c t h a t w e w i l l f i n i s h i n t im e fo r o u r
s u g g e s te d 1 4 :0 0 e n d .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s , I t h in k I w i l l n e e d th a t w e ta k e a s h o r t b re a k .
E a r l i e r o n M r M a n y i w h e n o u r f l i g h t w a s a t a n e a r l i e r t im e y o u s a id y o u
c o u ld m a k e i t i f y o u l e f t a t 1 2 :3 0 , w h ic h s e e m to g i v e m e th e im p re s s io n
th a t ’s o n e a n d a h a l f h o u rs b e fo re d e p a r tu re . I f w e g o b e y o n d 1 4 :0 0
b e c a u s e o f t h e b re a k th a t I a m p ro p o s in g y o u w i l l s t i l l b e m o re o r l e s s
o k a y. 10
M R M A N Y I : I w i l l b e m o re o r l e s s o k a y y e s C h a i r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : O k a y, c o u ld w e th e re fo re t a k e j u s t a 1 5 m in u te s b re a k
a n d c o m e b a c k a t q u a r te r t o tw o . I f w e d o th a t I t h in k w e w o u ld a im to
f i n i s h b y a t l e a s t n o t l a te r t h a n 1 4 :1 5 , w o u ld t h a t m o re o r l e s s b e f i n e
w i th y o u M s H o fm e y r?
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a t s e e m s f i n e to m e .
M R M A N Y I : T h a t ’s f i n e w i th m e C h a i r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : O k a y, a l r i g h t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : W e a re g ra te fu l f o r t h e b re a k C h a i r, t h a n k y o u .
C H A IR P E R S O N : J a , l e t ’s t a k e a b re a k n o w, s o i t i s h a l f p a s t , w e w i l l 20
r e s u m e a t 1 3 :4 5 . W e a d jo u rn .
R E G IS T R A R : A l l r i s e .
IN Q U IRY A D J O U R N S
IN Q U IRY R E S U M E S
R E G IS T R A R : A l l r i s e .
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C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s M s H o fm e y r.
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a i r. B e fo re t h e a d jo u rn m e n t w e w e re i n
E x h ib i t N N 6 a t p a g e 3 5 3 . C h a i r a n d M r M a n y i t h i s i s p a r t o f t h e
i n fo rm a t io n th a t w a s p ro d u c e d p u rs u a n t t o y o u r re q u e s t C h a i r t h a t t h e re
b e a b re a k d o w n p e r n e w s p a p e r o f t h e s p e n d o f G C IS o v e r t h e p e r io d .
A n d M r M a n y i I a c c e p t t h a t t h e p e r io d s p a n s t im e g re a te r t h a n th e t im e
th a t y o u w e re i n G C IS a n d s o I w o u ld l i k e t o f o c u s o n th e tw o y e a rs i n
w h ic h y o u w e re th e re . T h a t w o u ld c o v e r o n m y u n d e rs ta n d in g b o th t h e
2 0 11 /2 0 1 2 y e a r a s w e l l a s t h e 2 0 1 2 /2 0 1 3 y e a r b e c a u s e y o u e x i t e d G C IS
a f t e r t h e e n d o f t h e f i n a n c ia l y e a r i n 2 0 1 2 , i s t h a t r i g h t? O h i f y o u w i l l 10
j u s t p u t o n y o u r m ic ro p h o n e .
M R M A N Y I : I b e g y o u r p a rd o n . Ye s th a t i s c o r re c t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . S o i f w e s ta r t a t p a g e . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
M R M A N Y I : S o 11 /1 2 , 1 2 /1 3 ?
A D V H O F M E Y R : C o r re c t .
M R M A N Y I : J a .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h o s e a re th e tw o y e a rs w e w i l l f o c u s o n . A n d i f w e
s ta r t w i t h 2 0 11 to 2 0 1 2 i t i s a t p a g e 3 5 3 . Yo u w i l l s e e r i g h t a t t h e
b o t to m o f t h e p a g e th e re t h e i n d i c a te d s p e n d o n th e N e w A g e . D o y o u
s e e th a t? 20
M R M A N Y I : Ye s I d o .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d th a t i s i n t h e o rd e r o f R 6 .3 m i l l i o n , c o r re c t?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n w h a t y o u g e t t o c o m p a re th a t t o b e c a u s e
n o w I a m in te re s te d i n t h e c o m p a r i s o n i s t h e s p e n d o n o th e r
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n e w s p a p e rs . S o a m o n g s t t h e m y o u w i l l s e e i n t h e th i r d l i n e d o w n i s t h e
S u n d a y T im e s a n d th e S u n d a y T im e s re c e i v e d s p e n d f r o m G C IS in t h a t
p e r io d o f R 8 .4 m i l l i o n o r t h e re a b o u ts . D o y o u s e e th a t?
M R M A N Y I : O n th e s a m e 3 5 3 S u n d a y T im e s ?
A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s s o i f y o u l o o k d o w n o n Av u sa i t i s t h e th i r d l i n e i n
t h a t t o p b lo c k a n d y o u g o a c ro s s .
M R M A N Y I : O h y e s o k a y r i g h t a t t h e to p y e s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : Yo u h a v e g o t S u n d a y T im e s a t R 8 .4 m i l l i o n , c o r re c t?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s , y e s c o r re c t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a t i s a s I c a s t m y e y e d o w n th i s t a b le th e h ig h e s t 10
s p e n d in t h a t y e a r, i s t h a t a l s o y o u r u n d e rs ta n d in g o f t h e p a g e ?
M R M A N Y I : J a i n t h i s p a g e a s re f l e c te d h e re th a t i s c o r re c t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n e x t h ig h e s t i s t h e N e w A g e , i s t h a t c o r re c t?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s th a t i s c o r re c t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d th e D a i l y S u n w h ic h y o u i n d i c a te d e a r l i e r h a s th e
g re a te s t c i r c u la t i o n i n t h e c o u n t r y y o u w i l l s e e to w a rd s th e b o t to m o f
t h e l a s t b lo c k , s e c o n d l i n e f r o m th e b o t to m th e re . I t s a y s M e d ia 2 4
D a i l y S u n w a s R 2 .6 m i l l i o n th e re a b o u ts , d o y o u s e e th a t?
M R M A N Y I : H ’m m . I t i s c o r re c t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : W h a t c o n c e rn s – w h a t I n o t i c e a b o u t t h i s p a g e i s t h a t 20
t h e s p e n d o n th e N e w A g e i s s e c o n d o n l y t o t h e S u n d a y T im e s a n d
. . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : P le a s e h e lp m e w h e re i s t h e N e w A g e ? I a m t r y in g to
. . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g ie s C h a i r i t i s r i g h t a t t h e b o t to m o f t h e p a g e
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o u ts id e o f a b lo c k a t a l l . D o y o u s e e r i g h t a t t h e b o t to m o f 3 5 3 ?
C H A IR P E R S O N : I a m a t 3 5 3 a n d . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
A D V H O F M E Y R : Yo u h a v e g o t a b lo c k f o r Av u s a . Yo u h a v e g o t a b lo c k
fo r I n d e p e n d e n t N e w s p a p e rs . Yo u h a v e g o t a b lo c k f o r M e d ia2 4 a n d
th e n b e lo w th e b lo c k f o r M e d ia 2 4 th e l a s t l i n e o n th e p a g e re a d s th e
N e w A g e R 6 .3 m i l l i o n .
C H A IR P E R S O N : A t p a g e 3 5 3 ?
A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s C h a i r w e – y o u m a y b e i n t h e w ro n g f i l e .
C H A IR P E R S O N : I k n o w I h a v e ta k e n o f f m y s p e c s b u t . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
A D V H O F M E Y R : O h n o . A re y o u i n t h e E x h ib i t N N 6 ? 10
C H A IR P E R S O N : Yo u s e e m y – o n m y – th e l a s t – o h o u ts id e . S o I a m
lo o k in g i n s id e .
A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s i n d e e d I d o a p o lo g i s e .
C H A IR P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
A D V H O F M E Y R : I t i s o d d th a t y o u h a v e g o t t h re e b lo c k s a n d th e n
s o m e th in g l o c a te d b e y o n d th e m .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. O k a y, o k a y n o w I s e e i t . O k a y.
A D V H O F M E Y R : I t h i n k t h e re a s o n fo r t h a t i s t h a t t h e re w e re n o o th e r
p u b l i c a t i o n s . t h in k t h e re a s o n fo r t h a t i s t h a t t h e re w e re n o o th e r
p u b l i c a t i o n s . 20
C H A IR P E R S O N : J a .
M R M A N Y I : I n T h e N e w A g e .
C H A IR P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V H O F M E Y R : W h e re a s th e o th e rs h a v e to b e d i v id e d .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
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A D V H O F M E Y R : I n s o fa r a s Av u s a i s c o n c e rn e d b e tw e e n th e H e ra ld ,
Av u s a M e d ia , S u n d a y T im e s e t c e te ra .
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t I w a s s a y in g to M r M a n y i i s t h a t t h e h ig h e s t
s p e n d o n th i s p a g e i s R 8 .4 m i l l i o n a n d th a t i s t o t h e S u n d a y T im e s .
D a i l y S u n re c e i v e s i n t h e o rd e r o f R 2 .6 m i l l i o n b u t T h e N e w A g e
re c e i v e s R 3 – R 6 .3 m i l l i o n w h ic h i s t h e s e c o n d h ig h e s t s p e n d i n t h a t
y e a r. D o y o u re a d th e ta b le i n t h e s a m e w a y a s I d o M r M a n y i?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s i t i s c o r re c t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : N o w th a t s e e m s to m e to ra i s e a q u e s t i o n . W h y w o u ld 10
T h e N e w A g e in i t s f i r s t y e a r g i v e n th e c h a l l e n g e s th a t w e h a v e
t r a v e rs e d i n t h e e v id e n c e a l r e a d y a b o u t i t s c i r c u la t i o n a n d th e c o n c e rn s
ra i s e d b y th e p e rs o n s w h o d id re s e a rc h o n re a d e rs h ip s t i l l c o m m a n d
th e s e c o n d h ig h e s t s p e n d w i th in G C IS ?
M R M A N Y I : O k a y. T h a n k y o u C h a i r. I a m h a p p y th a t y o u p i c k e d u p
S u n d a y T im e s w h ic h i n f a c t i s a g o o d e x a m p le o f h o w p e o p le d i s to r t
c o m p a r i s o n s . S u n d a y T im e s i s a o n c e i n s e v e n d a y ’s n e w s p a p e r. N e w
A g e i s a f i v e d a y n e w s p a p e r. S o w h y o n e a r th w o u ld a n y o n e c o m p a re
w h a t y o u s p e n d o n th e o n c e i n s e v e n d a y s w i th a f i v e d a y n e w s p a p e r?
T h e c o m p a r i s o n i s a b s u rd , t o ta l l y a b s u rd . 20
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . P le a s e i d e n t i f y a n o th e r f i v e p a g e – f i v e
d a y n e w s p a p e r o n th i s p a g e ? I s D a i l y S u n n o t a f i v e d a y n e w s p a p e r?
M R M A N Y I : B u t I t h o u g h t w e h a v e d i s c u s s e d th e D a i l y S u n ?
A D V H O F M E Y R : N o i t i s . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
M R M A N Y I : I t i s b u t t h e s a m e c r i t i c i s m c a n b e m a d e a c ro s s m a n y
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p e o p le t h a t D a i l y S u n d o e s n o t a t t r a c t a s m u c h a d v e r t i s i n g s p e n d a s
o th e rs b e c a u s e e v e ry b o d y u n d e rs ta n d s th e i s s u e th a t w e – I s p o k e
a b o u t t h a t t a rg e t m a rk e t i n g .
A D V H O F M E Y R : B u t y o u h a d n o i d e a o f t h e ta rg e t m a rk e t o f t h e N e w
A g e ?
M R M A N Y I : N o w e l l w h e n I s a y ta rg e t m a rk e t I a m ta l k in g – I d o n o t
k n o w w h a t . . . ( i n d i s t i n c t ) s a y I d o n o t k n o w, I h a v e n o i d e a , I d o n o t
u n d e rs ta n d th e q u e s t i o n . M a y b e re p e a t – w h a t a re y o u s a y in g ?
M R M A N Y I : I w a s re fe r r i n g to t h e e v id e n c e e a r l i e r. T h e re w a s n o
i n fo rm a t io n b e fo re G C IS b a s e d o n w h a t w e h a v e s e e n i n t h e s e p a p e rs 10
t h a t g a v e i t a n y c o n f i rm e d in d i c a t i o n o f a re a d e rs h ip b e y o n d 4 0
re s p o n d e n ts , d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t?
M R M A N Y I : N o I d o n o t a c c e p t t h a t b e c a u s e a s I s a id e a r l i e r t h a t I d o
n o t k n o w w h o p u t t h a t t o g e th e r, w h a t i s t h e v o ra c i t y o f w h a t t h e y h a v e
p u t h e re t o g e th e r.
A D V H O F M E Y R : R ig h t . S o l e t u s a s th e C h a i r s u g g e s te d e a r l i e r l e t u s
a s s u m e th a t t h e s e fa c t s a re a c c u ra te .
M R M A N Y I : L e t u s a s s u m e th a t t h e s e fa c t s a re w ro n g ?
A D V H O F M E Y R : W e l l I c a n n o t h a v e a d e b a te w i th y o u M r M a n y i a n d
y e s I h a v e a l t e rn a t i v e fa c t s o n w h ic h to b a s e th e q u e s t i o n s . 20
C H A IR P E R S O N : M a y b e le t u s p u t i t t h i s w a y. I f t h e s e fa c t s w e re
c o r re c t w o u ld i t a f f e c t y o u r a n s w e r i n a n y w a y o r w h a te v e r t h e fa c t s a re
a ro u n d th a t i t w o u ld n o t a f f e c t y o u r a n s w e r a n d y o u r a p p ro a c h o r
a t t i t u d e to w a rd s s u p p o r t i n g th e N e w A g e ?
M R M A N Y I : C a n s h e re p e a t t h e q u e s t i o n t h e n C h a i r?
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C H A IR P E R S O N : O k a y m a y b e le t– o k a y c a n y o u re p e a t i t M s H o fm e y r
u s in g . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s I a m h a p p y to C h a i r I w a s j u s t w o r r i e d th a t i t w a s
y o u r q u e s t i o n a t t h i s p o in t b u t . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : J a u s in g m y fo rm u la t i o n m a y b e .
A D V H O F M E Y R : B u t l e t m e d o s o . M r M a n y i w e h a v e to t a k e th e
d e b a te o n th e b a s i s o f t h e fa c t s t h a t a re h e re . S o i f i t i s a c c e p te d fo r
t h e p u rp o s e s o f t h e q u e s t i o n th a t t h e T N A h a d o n l y 4 0 re s p o n d e n ts
i d e n t i f i e d i n t h e y e a r o f 2 0 11 th a t h a d re a d th e n e w s p a p e r. T h a t t a rg e t
m a rk e t i s e x t re m e ly s m a l l , i s i t n o t? 10
M R M A N Y I : B a s e d o n th o s e c i r c u la t i o n f i g u re s y e s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . T h o s e a re re a d e rs h ip f i g u re s j u s t f o r t h e
re c o rd . T h e n w e m o v e to y o u r e v id e n c e a m o m e n t a g o . Yo u f i r s t
d i s p u te d th e c o m p a r i s o n I d re w b e tw e e n th e S u n d a y T im e s a n d th e N e w
A g e o n th e b a s i s t h a t t h e S u n d a y T im e s c i r c u la te o n c e a w e e k a n d th e
N e w A g e c i r c u la te s f i v e t im e s a w e e k w h ic h I u n d e rs ta n d . T h a t i s w h y I
m o v e d th e q u e s t i o n to w e l l l e t u s f i n d a n o th e r f i v e d a y c i r c u la t i n g
n e w s p a p e r.
M R M A N Y I : C h a i r.
A D V H O F M E Y R : I i d e n t i f i e d th e D a i l y S u n . 20
M R M A N Y I : C a n I?
C H A IR P E R S O N : M r M a n y i .
M R M A N Y I : C a n I m a k e th i s p o in t? T h e d a y – l e t u s c o m p a re th e D a i l y
S u n w i th a n u n p a ra l l e le d c i r c u la t i o n w i th t h e S o w e ta n a n d i n t h i s t a b le
h e re t h e S o w e ta n i n 2 0 11 /1 2 a c c o rd in g to t h i s t a b le g o t R 4 m i l l i o n . A n d
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i f w e g o to t h a t p a g e s o th a t w e ju s t s t i c k w i t h t h e fa c t s w e d o n o t h a v e
a l t e rn a t i v e f a c t s t h e p a g e th a t w e w e re p o in te d to i n i t i a l l y w i t h t h a t
c i r c u la t i o n n u m b e rs o r r e a d e rs h ip n u m b e rs . C h a i r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : M s H o fm e y r w i l l b e t r y in g to h e lp y o u w i th
. . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
M R M A N Y I : Ye s c a n s h e p le a s e h e lp u s w i th t h a t?
A D V H O F M E Y R : I t i s p a g e 3 1 6 .
C H A IR P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R M A N Y I : N o w C h a i rp e rs o n l o o k a t t h i s . Yo u c a n ta k e a n y c o lu m n .
L e t u s t a k e th e f i r s t c o lu m n . D a i l y S u n h a s g o t R 5 m i l l i o n i n t e rm s o f 10
t h e c i r c u la t i o n f i g u re . A n d S o w e ta n h a s g o t o n l y R 1 .5 . B u t h e re i n
t h e s e f i g u re s h e re S o w e ta n w i th R 1 .5 . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Yo u n o w g o in g b a c k to 3 5 3 ?
M R M A N Y I : O h s o r r y y e s .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A N Y I : Ye s . S o w e ta n w i th – i n f a c t j u s t s o th a t w e c a n c o m p a re
l i k e w i th l i k e l e t u s g o to 2 0 1 2 C h a i r o n th e re a d e rs h ip o f 2 0 1 2 o n th a t
3 1 6 th a t w e . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A N Y I : J a . N o w y o u h a v e g o t D a i l y S u n a t 5 .5 m i l l i o n re a d e rs h ip . 20
A n d th e n y o u h a v e g o t S o w e ta n a t 1 .6 m i l l i o n . B u t o n th e D a i l y S u n
h o w m u c h w e s p e n d . O n th e D a i l y S u n w e h a v e s p e n t
A D V H O F M E Y R : R 2 .6 m i l l i o n .
M R M A N Y I : R 2 .6 h e re i t i s a R 5 m i l l i o n . S o w h a t i s t h e ra t i o n a le ?
W h y i s – j u s t c o m p a re v e te ra n to v e te ra n ? W h y s p e n d R 2 .6 m i l l i o n o n
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a R 5 .6 m i l l i o n c i r c u la t i o n a n d s p e n d a lm o s t d o u b le th e a m o u n t o n
s o m e th in g th a t i s 1 .5 ? A n d I c a n g i v e y o u th e a n s w e r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : I – m y m in d i s s t i l l s t u c k o n th e p o in t t h a t y o u a n d M s
H o fm e y r w e re d e a l i n g w i th m u c h e a r l i e r a n d i t m a y b e th a t t h e p o in t
t h a t y o u a re ra i s in g i s a n o th e r p o in t . Yo u ra i s e d th e c r i t i c i s m th a t y o u
c a n n o t c o m p a re a f i v e d a y n e w s p a p e r w i th a o n e d a y a w e e k
n e w s p a p e r.
M R M A N Y I : Ye s .
C H A IR P E R S O N : W h ic h I u n d e rs ta n d . T h e n s h e s a id l e t u s l o o k a t
a n o th e r f i v e d a y n e w s p a p e r. 10
M R M A N Y I : Ye s .
C H A IR P E R S O N : N o w I w a s w a i t i n g th a t w e g o th e re a n d c o m p a re a n d
th e n s e e w h a t w e – w h a t e m e rg e s . B u t y o u h a v e d ra w n m y a t te n t i o n to
I t h in k t h e S o w e ta n .
M R M A N Y I : Ye s th e S o w e ta n v e rs u s th e D a i l y S u n .
C H A IR P E R S O N : A n d w h a t I b e l i e v e to b e a o n e d a y a w e e k n e w s p a p e r
o r a m I w ro n g ? T h e o th e r n e w s p a p e rs . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
M R M A N Y I : N o th e D a i l y S u n i s e v e ry d a y.
C H A IR P E R S O N : O h th e D a i l y S u n i s . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
M R M A N Y I : I t i s t h e s a m e a s S o w e ta n . 20
C H A IR P E R S O N : T h e o th e r o n e th a t h a s g o t a l o t o f t h a t y o u w e re
s a y in g e a r l i e r o n i s a l o t o f . . . ( i n d i s t i n c t ) .
M R M A N Y I : I t i s D a i l y S u n C h a i r. T h e o n e th a t h a s – t h a t i s t o p p in g
e v e ry o n e .
C H A IR P E R S O N : O h I t h o u g h t i t w a s th e S u n d a y p a p e r.
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M R M A N Y I : N o .
C H A IR P E R S O N : O h i t i s t h e D a i l y S u n .
M R M A N Y I : I t i s t h e D a i l y S u n .
C H A IR P E R S O N : O k a y a l r i g h t . O k a y j u s t r e p e a t t h e p o in t y o u a re
m a k in g b e c a u s e w h e n y o u w e re m a k in g . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
M R M A N Y I : O k a y th e p o in t I a m m a k in g C h a i r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : W h e n y o u w e re m a k in g th e p o in t I t h o u g h t y o u – i t i s
a S u n d a y o n c e – o n e d a y a w e e k p a p e r?
M R M A N Y I : T h e p o in t I a m m a k in g C h a i r a n d I a m c h o o s in g a s a m p le
th a t i s a f f e c te d s o th a t w e c a n p o in t o u t t h a t y o u c a n n o t o p e ra te 10
m e c h a n ic a l l y o n a s t r a ig h t l i n e . L i k e w e a r e m a d e to d o i n t h i s s e s s io n .
S o I a m p o in t i n g o u t h e re C h a i r t h a t I n o te th a t t h e N e w A g e i s – t h e re
i s m o re s p e n d o n th e N e w A g e c o m p a re d to a n y o th e r s o to s p e a k – f i v e
d a y. B u t I a m s a y in g I c a n s a y th e s a m e th in g a b o u t t h e c o m p a r i s o n o f
S o w e ta n a n d D a i l y S u n w h ic h a re b o th f i v e d a y n e w s p a p e rs a n d th e
c o m p a r i s o n i n t e rm s o f r e a d e rs h ip b e tw e e n D a i l y S u n a n d S o w e ta n i s
c h a l k a n d c h e e s e . D a i l y S u n i s s i t t i n g a t 5 .5 m i l l i o n re a d e rs h ip a n d y e t
w e s p e n d in g o n l y 2 .6 m i l l i o n . Ye t o n th e S o w e ta n th a t h a s g o t 1 .5 w e
s p e n d in g 4 .1 m i l l i o n o n i t .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s . 20
M R M A N Y I : W h ic h i s a lm o s t d o u b le .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A N Y I : T h e o th e r n u m b e rs . S o th e p o in t i s y o u m u s t a l s o h a v e a
p ro b le m w i th t h a t i f y o u a re g o in g to h a v e a p ro b le m w i th t h i s . S o a l l I
a m a s k in g fo r j u s t b e c o n s i s te n t w h e n y o u d o th e s e n u m b e rs . J u s t n o t
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c h e r r y p i c k b e c a u s e th e i s s u e h e re i s t h a t t h i s i s s u e C h a i r i s n o t a
m e c h a n ic a l i s s u e . T h e re a re j u s t t o o m a n y n u a n c e s i n b e tw e e n a s to
w h y y o u w o u ld d o b u s in e s s w i th a p a r t i c u la r p u b l i c a t i o n .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s n o I t h in k t h e p o in t y o u a re m a k in g h a s b e e n
u n d e rs to o d M r H o fm e y r?
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a i r. M r M a n y i I d o w a n t t o m a k e th e
c o m p a r i s o n b e tw e e n th e N e w A g e a n d a n y o th e r f i v e d a y n e w s p a p e r o n
th i s p a g e b e c a u s e I w o u ld l i k e y o u r e v id e n c e o n th a t a s p e c t . S o i f w e
g o to t h e p a g e y o u h a v e d ra w n o u r a t t e n t i o n to w h ic h i s 3 1 6 w h ic h s e ts
o u t t h e c o m p a ra t i v e re a d e rs h ip d u r in g th e p e r io d . M y q u e s t i o n i s t h e 10
f o l l o w in g : W h a t b a s i s c o u ld j u s t i f y s p e n d in g R 6 .3 m i l l i o n o n l e t u s t a k e
y o u r 2 0 1 2 f i g u re s a n e w s p a p e r w i t h 1 0 7 0 0 0 in d i c a te d re a d e rs h ip w h e re
th e n e x t c l o s e s t s p e n d o f a f i v e d a y n e w s p a p e r i s l e s s th a n R 6 .3
m i l l i o n . I t i s R 4 .1 m i l l i o n a n d th e c i r c u la t i o n – t h e re a d e rs h ip t h e re i s
5 .5 m i l l i o n . D o e s th a t n o t o n i t s f a c e se e m to y o u to c a l l f o r a n
e x p la n a t i o n a t l e a s t?
M R M A N Y I : I c a n g i v e th e e x p la n a t i o n .
A D V H O F M E Y R : H ’m m .
M R M A N Y I : C h a i r y o u s e e o n e o f t h e – j u s t b y w a y o f e x a m p le j u s t t o
u n d e rs ta n d th e b u s in e s s m o d e ls o f t h e s e d i f f e re n t n e w s p a p e rs . N e w 20
A g e in i t s a p p ro a c h w o u ld g e n e ra l l y h a v e a l o t o f c a m p a ig n s th a t a re 2 ,
3 , 4 p a g e s . C a m p a ig n s th e y w o u ld h a v e v e ry c o m p e t i t i v e p r i c i n g
b e c a u s e th e y w o u ld s a y to y o u , I m e a n o n e o f t h e e v id e n c e th a t M s
W i l l i a m s h a s b ro u g h t t o t h e a t t e n t i o n h e re i t i s i n h e r a f f i d a v i t . J u s t t o
p ig g y b a c k o n th a t e x a m p le j u s t t o i l l u s t ra te t h e p o in t w h e re s h e g o t t h e
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l e t t e r f r o m T N A a n d T N A w a s s a y in g th e y w a n t t o d o a n e ig h t p a g e r a n d
s o o n . S o w h a t w e h a v e w i th t h e c re a t i v i t y o f T N A i s p e o p le th a t
u n d e rs ta n d h o w to g e t t h e s to r y t o b e e x c i t i n g , m ix in g g ra p h ic s w i th
t e x t s a n d a l l o f t h a t a n d p i c tu re s a n d a l l o f t h i s s o th a t t h i s t h in g i s
r e a d a b le .
S o w h a t w e th e n d o i s l e t u s s a y y o u h a v e a p a r t i c u la r b r i e f i n g
b y a P re s id e n t o r S ta te o f t h e N a t io n a n d th e n the y s a y o k a y l e t u s d o
a n e ig h t p a g e r j u s t f o r – b y w a y o f a n e x a m p le . T h e n th e f i r s t p a g e w i l l
c o v e r m a y b e th e fa c e o f t h e P re s id e n t . T h e n th e n e x t p a g e m a y b e w i l l
c o v e r p a r l i a m e n t o r w h a te v e r e l s e a n d a s p a r t o f t h e s to r y s o th a t a s 10
y o u re a d th e s to r y b e c a u s e p e o p le u n d e rs ta n d th e p s y c h o lo g y o f t h e
re a d e r t h a t a s y o u re a d th e s to r y i f y o u h a v e g o t p i c tu re s i n b e tw e e n i t
m a k e s th e s to r y m u c h m o re e a s y to c o n s u m e .
S o b e c a u s e th e N e w A g e h a d a l o t o f t h o s e t y p e s o f c a m p a ig n s
th e y w o u ld b e th e p re fe r r e d m e d iu m . B y th e w a y C h a i rp e rs o n l e t m e
m a k e th i s p o in t t h a t G C IS i s n o t t h e a c tu a l d e c i s io n m a k e r o n th e s e
th in g s . T h e v a r io u s d e p a r tm e n ts t h a t c o m e to G C IS y o u g e t a D G o f
t h a t d e p a r tm e n t w h ic h y o u c a n n o t o v e r r i d e a s G C IS D G . D e s p i te t h e
e m p i r i c s y o u h a v e . D e s p i te t h e T E L M A y o u h a v e .
I f a D G o f a p a r t i c u la r d e p a r tm e n t s a y s , I w a n t t h i s c a m p a ig n 20
r u n o n S o w e ta n h e h a s g o t t h e f i n a l s a y b e c a u s e h e i s t h e A c c o u n t in g
O f f i c e r f o r t h a t m o n e y i n h i s d e p a r tm e n t . Yo u c a n a d v i s e th a t d o n o t d o
th i s , d o n o t d o th a t b u t t h e f i n a l p o s i t i o n s i t s w i t h t h a t p e rs o n C h a i r.
Yo u c a n n o t o v e r ru le t h e m .
O n e o f t h e p o w e rs I h a d w a n te d w a s to b e a b le t o o v e r ru le
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t h e m o n th i s m a t te r s o I l e f t t h e D e p a r tm e n t w i th o u t h a v in g w o n th a t
b a t t l e . B u t a s t h in g s s ta n d l e t n o im p re s s io n b e c re a te d th a t G C IS w a s
m a k in g th e s e d e c i s io n s . G C IS w a s a n e n a b le r. T h e p e o p le t h a t m a k e
th e d e c i s io n s w h e re th e E x c o a re t h e l i n e d e p a r tm e n ts .
S o i f a n y o n e i s t o b la m e h e re i t i s n o t G C IS i t i s t h e l i n e
d e p a r tm e n ts . T h e s e a re t h e p e o p le t h a t o w n th e b u d g e t . B y th e G C IS
o n i t s o w n d o e s n o t e v e n h a v e a m e d ia b u d g e t i n m y t im e . D id n o t h a v e
m u c h b y w a y o f t h a t . I t w o u ld b e s a v in g s h e re a n d th e re th a t w e d o
s o m e th in g b u t i t d id n o t h a v e a s u b s ta n t i a l m i l l i o n s a n d m i l l i o n s re a d y
to a d v e r t i s e . N o . W e w e re j u s t t h e e n a b le r d e p a r tm e n t . 10
C H A IR P E R S O N : W o u ld t h e l i n e d e p a r tm e n ts s e n d s o m e th in g i n w r i t i n g
w h e n th e y s a y p le a s e a r ra n g e fo r t h i s t o b e a d v e r t i s e d i n a p a r t i c u la r
n e w s p a p e r? I n o th e r w o rd s c o u ld o n e p ro b a b ly g o s o m e w h e re a n d f i n d
th a t t h i s i s w h e re y o u w o u ld h a v e a l l t h e d o c u m e n ta t i o n to s a y y o u
k n o w th i s i s w h a t h a p p e n e d ? O r w a s th i s s o m e t im e s j u s t t e le p h o n ic o r
i n v e rb a l?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s .
C H A IR P E R S O N : O r a lw a y s v e rb a l o r t e le p h o n ic ?
M R M A N Y I : N o C h a i r I t h in k i t i s d o c u m e n te d a c tu a l l y. J a .
C H A IR P E R S O N : i t i s d o c u m e n te d ? 20
M R M A N Y I : J a i t i s d o c u m e n te d a s p a r t o f w h a t t h e y w o u ld re q u i re .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A N Y I : A s th e p e o p le th a t – b e c a u s e th e n i f y o u d o n o t d o th a t .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A N Y I : T h e n y o u h a v e a d i s p u te w i th t h a t p a r t i c u la r d e p a r tm e n t .
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C H A IR P E R S O N : J a .
M R M A N Y I : A n d s o o n . S o y o u w o u ld h a v e to – y o u c a n p e rs u a d e
th e m to d o th i s o r t h a t b u t t h e y a c tu a l l y h a v e th e f i n a l s a y.
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A N Y I : T h a t t h e G C IS d o e s n o t h a v e th e k in d o f – o r l e t m e p u t i t
t h i s w a y. I n m y t im e G C IS d id n o t h a v e th e k in d o f p o w e r t h a t N a t i o n a l
Tre a s u ry h a s . N a t i o n a l Tre a s u ry i s t h e ru le r o f g o v e rn m e n t . T h e y
d e c id e – g i v e y o u a re g u la t i o n a n d th a t i s t h e l i n e .
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
M R M A N Y I : T h e re w a s n o s u c h i n m y t im e a t G C IS . 10
C H A IR P E R S O N : S o i n e f f e c t w h a t y o u a re s a y in g i s t o t h e e x te n t t h a t
i t m a y s e e m th a t d u r in g a p a r t i c u la r t im e in c lu d in g y o u r t im e th e re
m ig h t h a v e b e e n a d ra s t i c i n c re a s e o r a n i n c re a s e i n b u s in e s s b e in g
g i v e n to t h e N e w A g e . Yo u a re s a y in g th o s e w o u ld n o t h a v e b e e n y o u r
d e c i s io n s o r t h e d e c i s io n s o f y o u r d e p a r tm e n t o f G C IS p e o p le . I t w o u ld
h a v e b e e n d e c i s io n s o f t h e D e p a r tm e n ts t o w h ic h th o s e a d v e r t s re la te d
a n d w h a te v e r y o u o r a n y b o d y i n G C IS m a y h a v e s a id t o s a y w h a t a b o u t
a d v e r t i s i n g i n t h a t n e w s p a p e r t h a t w o u ld h a v e b e e n a d v i s e w h ic h w o u ld
h a v e b e e n re je c te d i f i t w a s n o t s o m e w h a t . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
M R M A N Y I : I t i s n o t b la c k a n d w h i te C h a i r. 20
C H A IR P E R S O N : S o r r y ?
M R M A N Y I : I t i s n o t b la c k a n d w h i te .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A N Y I : S o – b u t I w o u ld s a y ro u g h ly 8 0 % o f w h a t w o u ld h a p p e n .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
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M R M A N Y I : W o u ld b e f r o m l i n e d e p a r tm e n ts .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A N Y I : J a . S o th e p e rs u a s io n .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A N Y I : T h e s u c c e s s o f t h e p e rs u a s io n .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A N Y I : I w i l l p ro b a b ly h a d a 2 0 % s u c c e s s ra te . J a b u t m a in l y
. . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : J a .
M R M A N Y I : I m e a n th e re a re p e o p le t h a t y o u w i l l n o t s h a k e . 10
C H A IR P E R S O N : J a .
M R M A N Y I : T h a t s a y th i s t h in g m u s t g o to t h e S u n d a y T im e s .
C H A IR P E R S O N : J a .
M R M A N Y I : T h e re i s a b s o lu te l y n o th in g y o u c a n d o .
C H A IR P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R M A N Y I : I f y o u m u s t j u s t g o to t h e S u n d a y T im e s .
C H A IR P E R S O N : O k a y th a n k y o u .
A D V H O F M E Y R : C h a i r I a m v e ry c o n s c io u s o f t h e t im e . W e m a y n e e d
to . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : O h y e s , y e s . 20
A D V H O F M E Y R : To g o to h a l f p a s t i f w e c a n . T h a t s t i l l l e a v e s a n h o u r
a n d a h a l f s o I a m o p t im is t i c M r M a n y i .
C H A IR P E R S O N : L e t u s c o n f i rm th a t w o u ld s t i l l b e f i n e M r M a n y i i f w e
g o u p to h a l f p a s t?
M R M A N Y I : H a l f p a s t y e s i t i s f i n e .
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C H A IR P E R S O N : J a o k a y.
A D V H O F M E Y R : I w o u ld l i k e t o t r y a n d w ra p th i s u p q u i c k l y. Yo u r
u n d e rs ta n d in g o f t h e d e c i s io n m a k in g i n G C IS i s s l i g h t l y d i f f e re n t t o m y
u n d e rs ta n d in g . C e r ta in l y G C IS i s p ro c u r in g fo u r d e p a r tm e n ts I a c c e p t
t h a t . B u t a s I u n d e rs ta n d i t o f t e n w h a t h a p p e n s i s t h e b r i e f c o m e s to
G C IS a n d th e b r i e f i s , w e h a v e a p a r t i c u la r c o m m u n ic a t i o n s t r a te g y.
W e w a n t t o g e t i t t o t h i s t a rg e t m a rk e t . G C IS p le a s e u s e a l l o f y o u r
e x p e r t i s e t o a s s e s s th e m a rk e t , l o o k a t r e a d e rs h ip , l o o k a t c i r c u la t i o n
e t c e te ra a n d m a k e a p ro p o s a l b a c k to u s a s t o w h o w e u s e . H a v e I
u n d e rs to o d i t i n c o r re c t l y ? 10
M R M A N Y I : Ye s y o u h a v e u n d e rs to o d i t i n c o r re c t l y.
A D V H O F M E Y R : O h .
M R M A N Y I : W h a t t y p i c a l l y h a p p e n s C h a i r. T h e – p e o p le a p p ro a c h
a n y b o d y. T h e y c a n a p p ro a c h a G C IS b u t t h e n th e y – i t d e p e n d s
b e c a u s e i t d e p e n d s w h a t c a m p a ig n y o u w a n t t o ru n . T h e m o s t
c a m p a ig n s th a t w o u ld g e n e ra l l y b e fu n d e d f r o m G C IS w o u ld b e th e
P re s id e n c y C a m p a ig n . I t w i l l b e m a y b e v e ry s m a l l b u d g e t a ro u n d th a t
b e c a u s e i t i s t h e o n l y l i n e d e p a r tm e n t s o to s p e a k fo r G C IS a t t h e t im e .
B u t i f s o m e b o d y e l s e c o m e s to G C IS a n d th e y s a y th e y h a v e g o t t h i s
b r i l l i a n t w a y o f a d v e r t i s i n g e n e rg y fo r a rg u m e n t s a k e . I c a n te l l y o u 20
t h i s n o w C h a i r t h e re i s n o w a y th a t G C IS w i l l s p e n d o n e c e n t o n th a t
c a m p a ig n . T h e y w o u ld d i r e c t t h a t p e rs o n to t h e E n e rg y D e p a r tm e n t a n d
th e n th e y w i l l h a v e th a t d i s c u s s io n th e n th e y w o u ld . . . ( i n d i s t i n c t ) a
c a m p a ig n b e tw e e n th a t d e p a r tm e n t a n d th a t p a r t i c u la r n e w s p a p e r.
T h e n w h e n i t c o m e s to G C IS , G C IS w o u ld a s s e s s i f t h e c h o s e n m e d ia
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b y th a t d e p a r tm e n t i s c o r re c t o r n o t c o r re c t d e p e n d in g o n w h a t a re t h e
ta rg e t m a rk e t r e q u i re m e n ts a n d a l l o f t h a t . T h e n G C IS w i l l s a y to t h e
D e p a r tm e n t I k n o w th a t y o u w a n t A b u t a c tu a l l y f o r y o u r t a rg e t m a rk e t i t
i s B . B u t t h e G C IS h a s n o t g o t t h e f i n a l s a y o n th a t m a t te r.
A D V H O F M E Y R : S o i s i t y o u r e v id e n c e th a t w e m u s t r e g a rd a l l G C IS
s p e n d a s n o t h a v in g i n v o l v e d a d e c i s io n o f G C IS b u t t h e d e c i s io n o f t h e
l i n e d e p a r tm e n t?
M R M A N Y I : I d i d s a y C h a i r i t i s n o t b la c k a n d w h i te . I d id m a k e a – I
d id m a k e a n e s t im a te o f 8 0 /2 0 . W h a t I a m s a y in g i s t h a t 8 0 % o f w h a t
y o u s e e h e re i s t h e w is h o f t h e D e p a r tm e n ts . 10
A D V H O F M E Y R : S o l e t u s . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : W e l l I a m s o r r y. I f y o u r s ta te m e n t t h a t t h e p e o p le
w h o h a v e th e f i n a l d e c i s io n a re th e l i n e d e p a r tm e n ts t h e n I a m n o t s u re
w h e th e r y o u s h o u ld b e m a k in g th e d i s t i n c t i o n y o u m a k e a b o u t 8 0 % a n d
2 0 % b e c a u s e i t w o u ld m e a n th a t w h a t y o u re g a rd a s 2 0 % i s w h e re
G C IS m a k e s u g g e s t i o n s o r g i v e s a d v i c e to l i n e d e p a r tm e n ts . A n d i f l i n e
d e p a r tm e n ts a re n o t b o u n d b y th a t t h e y w o u ld s t i l l b e m a k in g th e
d e c i s io n to – t h a t t h e a d v e r t s h o u ld g o to a p a r t i c u la r n e w s p a p e r. O f
c o u rs e o n e c a n a lw a y s s a y i n re g a rd to c e r ta in – a c e r ta in p e rc e n ta g e
m a y b e th e c h o ic e o f t h e n e w s p a p e r w a s i n f l u e n c e d b y G C IS . B u t 20
m a y b e in t h e e n d i t i s t h e D e p a r tm e n ts w h ic h d e c id e w h e th e r t o a c c e p t
t h e a d v i c e o r n o t?
M R M A N Y I : J a . T h e re a re tw o th in g s C h a i r. O n e G C IS i s t h e p o in t o f
i n te r fa c e . S o G C IS i s t h e o n e th a t w o u ld i n te r fa c e w i th t h e v a r i o u s
p u b l i c a t i o n s o n b e h a l f o f g o v e rn m e n t a s a w h o le .
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C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
M R M A N Y I : S o to s p e a k . S o a t o n e p o in t w h e n v a r io u s d e p a r tm e n ts
c o m e to G C IS .
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
M R M A N Y I : T h e y c o m e w i th t h e i r o w n p ro p o s a ls a n d s o I w a n t t o s a y
a c tu a l l y I w a n t t h i s i n t h e S o w e ta n , I w a n t t h i s i n t h i s p a r t i c u la r
n e w s p a p e r. Yo u c a n p e rs u a d e – s o I a m t r y in g to u n d e rs ta n d w h a t y o u
m e a n b y d e c i s io n C h a i r b e c a u s e i t i s j u s t t h e m e c h a n is m o f p la c in g a
p a p e r. I t m ig h t b e d o n e b y G C IS i t i s j u s t a m e c h a n is m b u t t h e
e x e c u t i v e d e c i s io n o n w h ic h n e w s p a p e r i s w i th t h e l i n e d e p a r tm e n t i f 10
y o u h a v e n o t p e rs u a d e d th e m o th e rw ise .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s . B u t p re c i s e l y t h e l a s t p o in t y o u m a k e i s t h e
p o in t t h a t I w a s t r y i n g to f i n d o u t w h e th e r t h a t i s n o t t h e p o s i t i o n .
B e c a u s e i f y o u s a y g o v e rn m e n t d e p a r tm e n t – l i n e d e p a r tm e n ts h a v e g o t
f i n a l d e c i s io n b u t y o u s a y G C IS h a s th e o p p o r tu n i t y t o a d v i s e a n d
p e rs u a d e ? O k a y. B u t t h e y c a n a d v i s e , t h e y c a n p e rs u a d e i f t h e l i n e
d e p a r tm e n ts d o n o t a c c e p t t h e a d v i c e o r a re n o t p e rs u a d e d th e d e c i s io n
s t i l l l i e s w i th t h e m .
M R M A N Y I : Ye s .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Yo u k n o w. B u t I t h in k m a y b e i t i s f a i r – m a y b e I 20
s h o u ld n o t h a v e b e e n k in o f c r i t i c a l o f t h e d i s t i n c t i o n y o u w e re m a k in g
b e c a u s e m a y b e w h a t y o u a re s e e k in g to d o i s t o m a k e s u re th a t n o b o d y
u n d e rs ta n d s th a t y o u a re s a y in g G C IS h a d n o i n f l u e n c e i n t h e c h o ic e o f
n e w s p a p e rs i n t e rm s o f w h e re th e a d v e r t s w o u ld b e p la c e d . B u t w h a t
y o u a re s a y in g i s t h e y h a d s o m e in f l u e n c e b u t t h e f i n a l d e c i s io n m a k e rs
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w e re th e l i n e d e p a r tm e n ts a n d m a y b e w h a t y o u w e re s e e k in g to s a y i s
i f y o u h a d to g i v e a p e rc e n ta g e o f w h a t t h a t i n f l u e n c e w a s l i k e y o u
w o u ld s a y m o re o r l e s s 2 0 % o f t h e c h o ic e o f n e w s p a p e rs fo r a d v e r t s
t h a t i s w h e re th e y a re – G C IS in f l u e n c e w a s .
M R M A N Y I : Ye s th a t i s c o r re c t C h a i r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : I s t h a t c o r re c t?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s C h a i r. A n d i n a d d i t i o n C h a i r – i n a d d i t i o n n o th in g
s to p p e d a d e p a r tm e n t f r o m g o in g d i r e c t l y a n d n o t e v e n c o m in g to G C IS .
S o w e h a d n o t a t 2 0 11 /2 0 1 2 w h e n I w a s th e re w e h a d n o t c o m e to a
re g u la to r y f r a m e w o rk th a t w o u ld c o m p e l e v e ry b o d y to c o m e v ia G C IS . 10
S o s o m e o f t h e s e f i g u re s a re G C IS f i g u re s , b u t i t w o u ld b e i n te re s t i n g
to s e e c a n y o u l o o k a t t h e l i n e d e p a r tm e n ts b y th e m s e lv e s , b e c a u s e
th e y d o h a v e a d i r e c t l i n e a n d w h e n th e y h a v e d o n e th a t .
T h e y h a v e s t i l l - b ro k e n - n o t b ro k e n a n y l a w. T h e y h a v e j u s t
d id n o t h a v e a c t w i t h t h e re q u i re d u n d e rs ta n d in g , b u t t h e re i s n o
p a r t i c u la r r e g u la t i o n th a t t h e y h a v e b ro k e n . S o l i n e d e p a r tm e n ts d o
m a k e th e i r o w n a r ra n g e m e n ts i n p a ra l l e l .
C H A IR P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V H O F M E Y R : M r M a n y i I d o n o t t h in k i t i s p ro f i t a b le t o g e t i n to a
d e b a te o u r u n d e rs ta n d in g . M y u n d e rs ta n d in g w a s b a s e d o n th e 20
e v id e n c e o f M s W i l l i a m s w h o in d i c a te d th a t p ro c e s s a s I h a v e d e s c r ib e d
i t t o y o u a n d th e e v id e n c e w h ic h y o u s a y i s n o t t h e p ro c e s s . I w o u ld
l i k e fo r t h e p u rp o s e s o f t o d a y ’s e v id e n c e s im p ly t o a s k yo u th e n to t h e
e x te n t t h a t G C IS w a s e v e r i n v o l v e d i n t h e d e c i s io n m a k in g to p la c e
a d v e r t i s i n g s p e n d w i th T N A .
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W o u ld i t b e c a u s e fo r c o n c e rn fo r y o u to l e a rn t h a t t h e
d e c i s io n s i n t h e re le v a n t p e r io d th a t y o u w e re th e re re s u l t e d i n g re a te r
s p e n d w i th T N A th a n a n y o th e r c o m p a ra t i v e f i v e -d a y n e w s p a p e r?
M R M A N Y I : I t – n o . I t w o u ld b e a m a t te r t h a t o n e m u s t l o o k a t c l o s e l y
a s t o w h a t a re t h e re a s o n s fo r t h a t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . L e t u s m o v e th e n to o n e o r tw o a s p e c ts
o f y o u r r e s p o n s e to M s W i l l i a m s a n d I w i l l e n d e a v o u r t o b e b r i e f h e re
C h a i r, b u t t h e re a re a f e w p o in t s I w a n te d to p i c k u p . A l a rg e p o r t i o n o f
y o u r a f f i d a v i t i n r e s p o n s e to M s W i l l i a m s c r i t i c i s e . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Yo u c a n p u t a w a y th e o th e r b u n d le t h a t w e h a v e b e e n 10
u s in g … ( in te r v e n e s ) .
A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s . S o C h a i r, w e – I a m h o p in g i n t h e i n te re s t o f
t im e n o t t o h a v e to g o a c tu a l l y i n to t h e a f f i d a v i t .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
A D V H O F M E Y R : I f t h e re i s a n i s s u e w e w i l l d o s o .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. A l r i g h t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : C e r ta in l y I h a v e th e re fe re n c e s , b u t i f w e c a n d o i t
. . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : I n i t i a l l y a t t h e l e v e l o f M r M a n y i ’s r e c o l l e c t i o n o f h e r 20
a f f i d a v i t . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t h e s a id .
C H A IR P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V H O F M E Y R : Yo u c r i t i c i s e w h a t y o u d e s c r ib e d a s a n u n la w fu l t r i a l
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p h a s e th a t w a s o p e ra t i n g u n d e r M s W i l l i a m s ’ w a tc h a t G C IS .
M R M A N Y I : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : I s t h a t c o r re c t?
M R M A N Y I : C o r re c t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u h ig h l i g h t t h e fa c t t h a t i n t h e N a t io n a l
Tre a s u ry R e p o r t o n th e L ig h t F u s e ’s c o n t ra c t a m o n g s t o th e rs t h a t i t h a d
fo u n d th a t t h e re w a s n o re q u e s t f o r a d i s p e n s a t io n fo r t h i s i n -h o u s e
m e d ia b u y in g n o t t o f o l l o w a c o m p e t i t i v e p ro c e s s .
M R M A N Y I : Ye s . C o r re c t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : D o y o u re c a l l h ig h l i g h t i n g t h a t? 10
M R M A N Y I : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : M y q u e s t i o n to y o u i s w h e th e r y o u a c c e p t t h a t t h a t
u n la w fu l t r i a l p h a s e p e rs i s te d w h i l e y o u w e re th e A c c o u n t in g O f f i c e r o f
G C IS ?
M R M A N Y I : 2 0 % o f t h e t im e . C h a i r t h e t r i a l p h a s e s ta r te d i n 2 0 1 0 in
S e p te m b e r a n d i t w a s a p p a re n t l y a s i x -m o n th th in g . S o 8 0 % o f t h i s
t r i a l p h a s e h a p p e n e d n o t i n m y e ra a n d th i s – a l l t h e s e s h e n a n ig a n s
p a y m e n ts a n d s tu f f h a p p e n e d in t h a t p e r io d . I n m y e ra i t w a s j u s t t h e
ta i l e n d o f t h in g s th a t h a p p e n e d , b u t t h e b u l k o f t h e b re a k in g d o w n o f –
b u l k o r I m e a n a l l t h e s p l i t i n v o i c e s . 20
A l l t h e i r r e g u la r t h in g s th a t h a p p e n e d la rg e l y i n J a n u a ry 2 0 11
b e fo re I a r r i v e d . S o th e t r i a l p h a s e I g o t 2 0 % o f i t . I t w a s s i x m o n th s
a n d s o i f y o u c o u n t f r o m S e p te m b e r. I p ro b a b ly g o t t h e ta i l e n d o f t h e
tw o m o n th s . T h e b u l k o f i t h a p p e n e d b e fo re m y t im e .
A D V H O F M E Y R : M r M a n y i w e d o n e e d to d i s t i n g u is h tw o th in g s . I
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u n d e rs ta n d th e p ro c u re m e n t t h a t o c c u r re d i n J a n u a ry 2 0 11 b e fo re y o u
a r r i v e d th e re . T h a t w a s th e s u b je c t m a t te r o f t h e N a t io n a l Tre a s u ry
R e p o r t . I a b s o lu te l y a c c e p t t h a t t h o s e p a y m e n t d e c i s io n s th e
a u th o r i s a t i o n o c c u r re d b e fo re y o u g o t t h e re . S o ta k e th a t a s g i v e n .
W h a t I a m a s k in g a b o u t i s y o u r c r i t i c i s m o f M s W i l l i a m s a n d
th e fa c t t h a t t h e re w a s a n u n la w fu l t r i a l p h a s e th a t d id n o t r e c e i v e
N a t i o n a l Tre a s u ry a p p ro v a l t o m o v e m e d ia b u y in g i n -h o u s e in to G C IS .
Yo u c r i t i c i s e h e r r e p e a te d l y f o r h a v in g a n o p e ra t i o n i n p la c e w h ic h
a l l o w e d in -h o u s e m e d ia b u y in g to t a k e p la c e w i th o u t N a t io n a l Tre a s u ry
a p p ro v a l a n d m y q u e s t i o n to y o u i s i t n o t t h e c a s e th a t t h a t v e ry 10
s i t u a t i o n p e rs i s te d n o t f o r tw o m o n th s , b u t f o r t h e e n t i r e t im e th a t y o u
w e re D G o f G C IS ?
M R M A N Y I : C h a i rp e rs o n I t h in k t h e – i f y o u g o to t h e re le v a n t
p a ra g ra p h s o f M s W i l l i a m s p a r t o f t h e n u b o f t h e i s s u e h e re i s w h e re
m o n e y g o t l o s t i n m y v ie w b y G C I – b y G C IS w h e re s h e w a s s ig n in g
th e s e c o m m i tm e n t o f p a y m e n ts a n d s o o n w h ic h w e re i r r e g u la r a n d a l l
o f t h a t . T h e s p l i t t i n g o f i n v o i c e s .
T h a t h a p p e n e d . S o th e l o s s th a t h a d h a p p e n e d h e re w h ic h i s
t h e re a l r e a s o n fo r t h i s r e p o r t i s t h a t m a in s e v e n m i l l i o n t h a t w e n t
m is s in g b e c a u s e o f t h i s – n o t w e n t m is s in g w a s p a id i r r e g u la r l y a n d s o 20
o n . T h a t i s t h e th in g . I n m y – w h e n I c a m e to t h e p i c tu re .
W e d id n o t h a v e th i s c o m m i tm e n t t o p a y h a p p e n in g a g a in ,
b e c a u s e th e n i t g o t s to p p e d a s s o o n a s w e s a w th i s . W e – i t d id n o t
h a p p e n a g a in .
A D V H O F M E Y R : M r M a n y i t h a t i s n o t a n a n s w e r t o m y q u e s t i o n . I w i l l
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a s k i t a g a in . B y th e t im e y o u l e f t G C IS h a d y o u re c e i v e d N a t io n a l
Tre a s u ry d i s p e n s a t i o n fo r i n -h o u s e m e d ia b u y in g w i th in G C IS ?
M R M A N Y I : T h a t i s s o m e th in g I w i l l h a v e to c h e c k C h a i r.
A D V H O F M E Y R : Yo u c a n d o s o a t l e a s t o n th e b a s i s o f a l e t t e r t h a t
y o u w ro te s h o r t l y b e fo re y o u l e f t G C IS . I t i s o n e o f t h e a t t a c h m e n ts t o
M s W i l l i a m s ’ a f f i d a v i t . Yo u w i l l f i n d i t i n N N 6 a t p a g e 4 6 . A g a in i f y o u
n e e d to g o th e re y o u c a n , b u t I c a n te l l y o u i t i s a l e t t e r t h a t y o u s ig n e d
o n th e 2 8 t h o f M a y 2 0 1 2 . J u s t r e m in d u s w h e n d id y o u l e a v e G C IS ?
M R M A N Y I : J a . I t h i n k C h a i r l e t u s j u s t s e t t h e c o n te x t . T h a t t h e –
t h a t m e m o th a t s h e i s t a l k in g a b o u t w a s a c o m p le te o v e rh a u l o f h o w 10
t h i n g s s h o u ld w o rk t o m a k e s u re th a t m e d ia b u y in g g e ts t h e m a x im u m .
T h a t w a s a R o l l s R o y c e re q u e s t t h a t o n e h a d p u t t h e re .
T h a t d o e s n o t n e c e s s a r i l y m e a n in b e tw e e n th a t t h e re w e re
n o o th e r l e g i t im a te w o rd s o f d o in g th in g s . T h a t i s j u s t o f t h e d e ta i l ,
b e c a u s e a s I s a y th i s w a s – t h i s w a s h a p p e n in g . A p e rs o n th a t r e a l l y
s h o u ld b e a s k e d h e re a n d I w i l l s a y th i s a g a in s h o u ld b e a s k e d to c o m e
a n d ta l k t o t h i s a t o p e ra t i o n a l l e v e l i s D o n a ld D ip h o k o .
I t h in k t h i s C o m m is s io n w o u ld b e a s e r i o u s i n ju s t i c e i f t h e y d o
n o t a s k h im to c o m e h e re . H e c a n e x p la in t h i s a t a l e v e l o f d e ta i l s a s
t o w h a t w a s h a p p e n in g a t t h a t p o in t i n t h e re , b u t I j u s t k n o w th a t t h e re 20
w a s s o m e w a y i n w h ic h th i s w a s d o n e in a m a n n e r t h a t w o u ld n o t
d i s a d v a n ta g e th e ta x p a y e r, b u t t h e d e ta i l I d o n o t h a v e .
C H A IR P E R S O N : W h a t w a s th e n a m e a g a in o f t h e p e rs o n ?
M R M A N Y I : D o n a ld D ip h o k o , b u t . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
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M R M A N Y I : D ip h o k o i s s p e l t D - I . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : D - I , I r e m e m b e r . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
M R M A N Y I : Ye s . Ye s . J a . D ip h o k o .
C H A IR P E R S O N : J a . J a .
M R M A N Y I : T h a t p e rs o n . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A N Y I : C h a i r w i l l – h e w a s h e a d in g m e d ia b u y in g .
C H A IR P E R S O N : W e l l … ( in te r v e n e s ) .
M R M A N Y I : S o a l l – m o s t o f t h e s e d e ta i l v i a h i s . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : H i s n a m e i s . . . ( i n te r v e n e s )? 10
M R M A N Y I : D o n a ld .
C H A IR P E R S O N : W o u ld a p p e a r i n a l i s t t h a t - i n a l i s t o f n a m e s th a t I
h a v e p re v io u s l y s a id - o f p e o p le th a t I h a v e s a id s h o u ld b e c a l l e d .
A D V H O F M E Y R : H ’m m .
C H A IR P E R S O N : O r s h o u ld b e i n te r v ie w e d . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
M R M A N Y I : J a .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Q u i t e s o m e t im e b a c k . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
A D V H O F M E Y R : H ’m m .
C H A IR P E R S O N : S o I a m s u re h e i s g o in g to b e i n te r v ie w e d i f h e h a s
n o t a l r e a d y b e e n in te r v ie w e d a n d w o u ld b e c a l l e d . 20
M R M A N Y I : H e i s t h e s a m e b u y C h a i r – I k n o w w e a re ru n n in g o u t o f
t im e . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
M R M A N Y I : A n d I d o n o t w a n t t o d i s ru p t M s H o fm e y r ’s i n p u t h e re . H e
i s t h e s a m e g u y C h a i r o n N N 2 th a t h a s s u b m i t t e d a n a f f i d a v i t .
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C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
M R M A N Y I : P a g e 9 7 .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t t h a t i s f i n e . L e t u s n o t s p e n d m o re t im e .
M R M A N Y I : O k a y.
C H A IR P E R S O N : I h a d – h e i s o n e o f t h e p e o p le th a t I h a d i d e n t i f i e d
m a n y m o n th s a g o a s p e o p le w h o s h o u ld b e i n te r v ie w e d . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
M R M A N Y I : J a .
C H A IR P E R S O N : A n d p o s s ib l y b e c a l l e d . S o th e re a re m a n y w h o h a v e
n o t b e e n c a l l e d w h o s h o u ld b e c a l l e d a n d w i l l b e c a l l e d .
M R M A N Y I : O k a y. 10
C H A IR P E R S O N : S o I a m s u re h e w i l l b e c a l l e d a t s o m e s ta g e .
M R M A N Y I : O k a y.
C H A IR P E R S O N : M s H o fm e y r y o u r t im e i s l im i te d . S o . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
A D V H O F M E Y R : H ’m m .
C H A IR P E R S O N : B o th M r M a n y i a n d I a re t r y in g to g i v e y o u t im e to
c o n t i n u e .
A D V H O F M E Y R : C h a i r, w e re a l l y o n l y h a v e a b o u t tw o m in u te s l e f t . I
. . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : F i v e o n m y w a tc h .
A D V H O F M E Y R : F i v e . O h . T h a t i s b e t te r t h a n m in e . 20
C H A IR P E R S O N : M r M a n y i o n y o u r w a tc h ?
M R M A N Y I : F i v e o n m in e .
C H A IR P E R S O N : F i v e o n h i s w a tc h . S o f i v e a t l e a s t . L e t u s s e e .
A D V H O F M E Y R : M r M a n y i t o c lo s e o f f o n th i s p o in t j u s t f o r t h e
p u rp o s e s o f t h e re c o rd . T h e l e t t e r t h a t I d re w y o u r a t t e n t i o n to I r e a d
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t h a t l e t t e r t o b e a re q u e s t f o r t h e v e ry d i s p e n s a t io n th a t y o u c r i t i c i s e d
M s W i l l i a m s fo r n o t h a v in g o b ta in e d fo r t h e i n -h o u s e m e d ia b u y in g . D o
y o u d i s p u te th a t?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s a n d n o . I d i s p u te – I – t h i s i s a t h in g o f t h i s y e s a n d
n o a n s w e rs C h a i rp e rs o n . T h e i s s u e i s t h a t t h a t d i s p e n s a t io n i f i t w a s i n
p la c e w e w o u ld n o t b e h a v in g th i s p ro b le m , b u t t h e fa c t t h a t t h a t
d i s p e n s a t i o n w a s n o t y e t i n p la c e . D id n o t m e a n w e d id t h e
i r r e g u la r i t i e s t h a t M s W i l l i a m s a n d h e r t e a m c o m m i t t e d – s p l i t t i n g
i n v o i c e s .
T h e re i s a w h o le l i s t o f t h in g s th a t t h ey h a v e d o n e w h ic h e v e n 10
w i th o u t t h e re g u la t i o n y o u s h o u ld n o t b e d o in g . S o m o s t o f w h a t w a s
d o n e w a s re a l l y t h e i l l e g a l s tu f f . T h a t i t – y o u d id n o t n e e d a n y
re g u la t i o n . Yo u d id n o t n e e d a n y d i s p e n s a t i o n . B e g y o u r p a rd o n . Yo u
d id n o t n e e d – y o u d o n o t n e e d a d i s p e n s a t io n to s a y d o n o t s p l i t
i n v o i c e s .
T h e re i s a re g u la t i o n a l r e a d y o n th a t . D o n o t d o th a t , b u t
t h e y w e re d o in g i t a n d i n f a c t t h e y w e re s a y in g th i s i s h o w G C IS d o e s
i t s b u s in e s s . O n e o f t h e re c o m m e n d a t io n s I h a d s a id h e re i n t h a t - i n
m y s u b m is s io n i s t h a t w h a t t h i s C o m m is s io n s h o u ld d o i s t o i n v e s t i g a te
t h e s p l i t t i n g o f i n v o i c in g b y G C IS b e fo re , b e c a u s e th i s i s o n e o f t h e s e 20
p e o p le i n te r v ie w e d h e re w a s s a y in g n o o n e – s o m e b o d y I t h in k a t a
d i r e c to r l e v e l w a s s a y in g i t w a s n e v e r b ro u g h t i n a s a n i r r e g u la r i t y f o r
m e , b u t t h i s i s g e n e ra l l y h o w w e d o th in g s h e re . Yo u k n o w.
S o th a t y o u d o n o t n e e d a d i s p e n s a t io n fo r a n d th i s w a s m y
c e n t re o f t h e c r i t i c i s m . A l o t o f t h e th in g s th a t w e re d o n e th a t w e re j u s t
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n o t f o l l o w in g a n y p re s c r ip t . T h a t d o n o t r e q u i re a p a r t i c u la r
d i s p e n s a t io n .
A D V H O F M E Y R : M r M a n y i d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t t h e re w a s a n e x te n s i v e
i n v e s t i g a t i o n c o n d u c te d o n th i s m a t te r b y N a t io n a l Tre a s u ry ?
M R M A N Y I : O n w h ic h m a t te r?
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h e m a t te r t h a t y o u h a v e j u s t r e fe r re d to . T h e R 7
m i l l i o n . T h e s p l i t t i n g o f i n v o i c e s . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
M R M A N Y I : J a .
A D V H O F M E Y R : L i k e t h e s e .
M R M A N Y I : C h a i rp e rs o n th e re a re tw o i s s u e s w h ic h w e m u s t n o t 10
c o n fu s e . T h e o n e i s s u e i s c e n t ra l i s a t i o n o f t h e m e d ia b u l k b u y in g . T h e
i s s u e a t h a n d h e re w e a re n o t d e a l i n g w i th – t h e i s s u e a t h a n d h e re
w a s a p a r t i c u la r s e rv i c e p ro v id e r w h o h im s e l f i s n o t a m e d ia h o u s e a s i t
w e re . T h e n a m e i s t h e re .
T h e y a re n o t a m e d ia h o u s e a n d th e i r r e g u la r a p p o in tm e n t o f
t h a t s e rv i c e p ro v id e r w o u ld o b v io u s l y h a v e g o n e to – g o a n d g e t m e d ia
s o m e w h e re . H e w a s h im s e l f n o t a s e rv i c e p ro v id e r. S o w e m u s t n o t
c o n fu s e i s s u e s . T h e N a t io n a l Tre a s u ry i n v e s t i g a t i o n w a s n o t a b o u t
m e d ia b u l k b u y in g .
I t w a s a b o u t t h e i r r e g u la r a p p o in tm e n t o f t h a t p a r t i c u la r 20
s e rv i c e p ro v id e r a n d th e re s t o f w h a t h a p p e n e d a s a re s u l t o f t h a t
i r r e g u la r a p p o in tm e n t . S o m y c r i t i c i s m w a s a ro u n d th e a p p o in tm e n t o f
t h a t s e rv i c e p ro v id e r a n d th e i r r e g u la r i t i e s t h a t f l e w f r o m th a t . T h e
m e d ia b u y in g i s s u e i s n o t e v e n a f f e c te d b y th i s t h in g .
I t i s a s e p a ra te m a t te r o f t r y i n g to c o n s o l i d a te re s o u rc e s . I t
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i s a p o s i t i v e p ro c e s s o f m a k in g s u re t h a t w e g e t e c o n o m ie s o f s c a le ,
b u t t h e re i s n o th in g i n m e d ia b u y in g th a t r e q u i re s t h e s h o r t c u ts t h a t t h e
p e o p le w e re d o in g a n d p a y m e n t c o m m i tm e n ts , s p l i t t i n g o f i n v o i c e s a n d
a l l o f t h a t . S o l e t u s n o t c o n fu s e i s s u e s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : M r M a n y i i t m a y b e l a te i n t h e d a y, b u t w e a re
c o m p le te l y a t c ro s s p u rp o s e s . I w a s m o v in g to t h e v e ry t h in g th a t y o u
s a y th i s C o m m is s io n m u s t i n v e s t i g a te . Yo u s a y th i s C o m m is s io n m u s t
i n v e s t i g a te th i s i r r e g u la r e x p e n d i tu re t h a t o c c u r re d p r i o r t o y o u j o in in g
G C IS . I s t h a t c o r re c t?
M R M A N Y I : N o . I s a id t h e y m u s t i n v e s t i g a te – t h e re i s t o o b ro a d a 10
t e rm . I w a s v e ry s p e c i f i c a n d n a r ro w. T h e s p l i t t i n g o f i n v o i c e s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . M r M a n y i i s t h a t a m a t te r th a t w a s
i n v e s t i g a te d e x te n s i v e l y b y t h e N a t i o n a l Tre a s u ry ?
M R M A N Y I : T h a t – w e l l t h a t w a s o n e o f t h e th in g s . N o t . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
M R M A N Y I : I t i s n o t s p e c i f i c a l l y t h a t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : N o , b u t t h e o n e t h a t y o u s a y y o u a re i n te re s te d i n t h e
s p l i t t i n g o f t h e i n v o i c e s th a t a m o n g s t o th e r t h in g s . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
M R M A N Y I : J a .
A D V H O F M E Y R : Wa s fu l l y i n v e s t i g a te d . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) . 20
M R M A N Y I : H ’m m .
A D V H O F M E Y R : B y th e N a t io n a l Tre a s u ry. I s t h a t c o r re c t?
M R M A N Y I : J a . T h a t – t h e re w a s a n – t h a t w a s a n i n c id e n t
i n v e s t i g a t i o n . Ye s C h a i r. T h e re w a s a n i n c id e n t t h a t s a id t h a t a n d m y
re q u e s t w a s to d o a m u c h b ro a d e r i n v e s t i g a t i o n . T h a t w a s j u s t a n
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i n c id e n t o f o n e c o m p a n y o r tw o c o m p a n ie s t h a t w e re i n v o l v e d i n t h i s .
S o th a t i s w h a t t h e i s s u e w a s .
I t i s n o t o n l y t h e s p l i t t i n g o f i n v o i c e s th a t w a s i n v e s t i g a te d .
I t w a s a l s o th e i r r e g u la r a p p o in tm e n t a n d a l o t o f o th e r t h in g s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A re y o u a w a re th a t t h e m a t te r r e la t i n g to t h e s p e c i f i c
s p l i t t i n g o n i n v o i c e s o n th e S ta t s S A c o n t ra c t f o r C e n s u s 2 0 11 b e c a m e
th e s u b je c t m a t te r o f c o u r t p ro c e e d in g s ?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s . I a m a w a re .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d th a t t h e c la im m a d e b y th e s e rv i c e p ro v id e r t o
G C IS L ig h t F u s e w a s d i s m is s e d ? 10
M R M A N Y I : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : Yo u a re a w a re o f t h a t?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . T h e – o n e o f t h e l a s t p o in t s t h a t I w a n t t o
d e a l w i t h a n d C h a i r m y s u g g e s t i o n i s i f t h e fo l l o w -o n m a t te r s
p a r t i c u la r l y g i v e n th a t w e a re g o in g to b e d e l v in g i n to t h e s a la r y i s s u e .
W e m a y in i t i a l l y e n g a g e o n a f f i d a v i t w i t h M r M a n y i . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A b o u t t h a t . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s . 20
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n ta k e i t f o rw a rd . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A IR P E R S O N : J a .
A D V H O F M E Y R : B u t I w o u ld j u s t l i k e o n th e q u e s t i o n o f d i s c ip l i n in g o f
s ta f f – M r M a n y i M s W i l l i a m s s a y s i n h e r a f f i d a v i t t h a t t h e re w a s th i s
e x te n s i v e i n v e s t i g a t i o n . T h e re w e re d i s c ip l i n a ry p ro c e s s e s th a t
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f o l l o w e d i t w i t h in G C IS a n d a t n o p o in t i n t h e d i s c ip l i n a ry p ro c e s s w a s
s h e e v e r d i s c ip l i n e d . D o y o u a c c e p t t h a t?
M R M A N Y I : T h i s i s t h e d i s p u te o f t h e i s s u e C h a i r. T h e i s s u e w a s th a t
t h e p e o p le t h a t w e re p r im a fa c i f i n g e re d w e re th e j u n io r s ta f f . S o th e
D D G ’s w e re th e p e o p le th a t d id t h e i n v e s t i g a t i o n s to t h e j u n io r s ta f f a n d
a l o t h a p p e n e d th e re . N o th in g h a p p e n e d to a n y o f t h e D D G ’s i n c lu d in g
M s W i l l i a m s . T h a t i s t h e fa c tu a l p o s i t i o n .
A D V H O F M E Y R : D id y o u h o ld t h e v ie w a t t h e t im e th a t M s W i l l i a m s
s h o u ld b e d i s c ip l i n e d ?
M R M A N Y I : I d i d n o t h o ld a n y v ie w a g a in s t a n y b o d y. I w a n te d a n 10
i n v e s t i g a t i o n . I w a n te d a n in v e s t i g a t i o n . S o th e f i r s t p h a s e i n m y m in d
w a s to s ta r t a t t h e l o w e r l e v e l s w h e re a l o t o f a c t i o n i s h a p p e n in g . T h e
s e n io r s ta f f t h e y a re a b i t m o re s o p h is t i c a te d . S o I w a s h o p in g th a t t h e
N a t i o n a l Tre a s u ry R e p o r t b e c a u s e i t w a s g o in g to d o th a t , b e c a u s e
w h a t t h e y d id .
T h e y w e n t t h ro u g h e v e ry b o d y i n c lu d in g D D G ’s . T h e y to o k
l a p to p s a n d a l l o f t h i s . T h e y d id t h e i n v e s t i g a t i o n N a t io n a l Tre a s u ry
i n c lu d in g e v e ry o n e . I d id n o t d o a n y th in g . B a s i c a l l y – p e rs o n a l l y n o t
o n a n y o n e . N o t e v e n o n j u n io r s ta f f . J u n io r s ta f f w a s p ro c e s s e d b y
th e i r l i n e m a n a g e rs a t a p a r t i c u la r l e v e l . 20
A D V H O F M E Y R : D o y o u a c c e p t t h a t i t i s y o u r r e s p o n s ib i l i t y a s t h e
A c c o u n t in g O f f i c e r o f G C IS to h a v e e n s u re d th a t a n y p e rs o n s w h o
e n g a g e in i r r e g u la r e x p e n d i tu re s h o u ld h a v e b e e n d i s c ip l i n e d ?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s . C o r re c t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : S o I h a v e y o u r e v id e n c e to b e a t t h e t im e th a t y o u
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w e re G C IS y o u d id n o t f o r t h e v ie w th a t M s W i l l i a m s h a d e n g a g e d in
i r r e g u la r e x p e n d i tu re ?
M R M A N Y I : I d i d n o t h a v e e v id e n c e C h a i r a n d I w a s n o t g o in g to
a c c u s e d h e r, b u t I w a s h o p in g th a t b e c a u s e w e h a v e g o t a Tre a s u ry
R e p o r t t h a t s h e i s a l s o p a r t o f i t . I w i l l b e i n fo rm e d b y th e o u tc o m e o f
t h a t r e p o r t . U n fo r tu n a te l y w h e n i t c a m e o u t I w a s a l r e a d y g o n e .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a i r. I j u s t s u g g e s t w e ta k e u p th e
re m a in d e r p o in t s i n a n e x c h a n g e w i th M r M a n y i o n a f f i d a v i t .
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s . N o . T h a t i s f i n e . S o th a t m e a n s M r M a n y i y o u
m a y b e re q u e s te d to d e a l w i t h c e r ta in q u e s t i o n s b y w a y o f a f f i d a v i t , b u t 10
f o r n o w w e w i l l s to p h e re b e c a u s e w e a l s o d o n o t w a n t y o u to m is s y o u r
f l i g h t , b u t t h a n k y o u v e ry m u c h fo r t a k in g p a r t a n d fo r g i v i n g y o u r
e v id e n c e . S o I w i l l t h e n n o w a d jo u rn t h e p ro c e e d in g s , b u t t h a n k y o u
v e ry m u c h .
M R M A N Y I : T h a n k y o u C h a i r, b u t a s I g o C h a i r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A N Y I : F o r t h e re c o rd .
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
M R M A N Y I : N o t i n g th a t t h e C h a i r h a s a d jo u rn e d , b u t f o r t h e re c o rd
w h e n I s a id a n d I w a n t t o j u s t i n m y p a r t i n g s h o t w h e re I s a y 20
M s W i l l i a m s l i e s . S h e l i e s b e c a u s e s h e s a y s m in e i n v e s t i g a t i o n
b a s i c a l l y I r e s o l v e d h e r. I h a v e n o f i n d in g s o n h e r a n d th e fa c t o f t h e
m a t te r i s t h a t I n e v e r i n v e s t i g a te d h e r.
S o I c a n n o t h a v e f i n d in g s w i th o u t h a v in g i n v e s t i g a te d y o u .
T h a t i s t h e o n e p o in t . T h e s e c o n d po in t , s h e s a y s th e N a t io n a l
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Tre a s u ry R e p o r t d id n o t h a v e a n y f i n d in g s a g a in s t h e r. I w a n t t o c lo s e
b y s a y in g th e C o m m is s io n s h o u ld l o o k a t t h e Tre a s u ry R e p o r t o n
C la u s e 8 .1 .1 .8 a n d C la u s e 8 .1 .2 .11 .
T h o s e c la u s e s a re v e ry s p e c i f i c t h a t s h e d id n o t h a v e
d e le g a te d a u th o r i t y t o m a k e th e c o m m i tm e n ts t o t h o s e – c o m m i tm e n t o f
p a y n o t i c e s . I t i s w r i t t e n th e re . S o a s – i n t h e l i s t o f f i n d in g s . S o y o u
c a n n o t t h e n s a y th e re a re n o f i n d in g s a g a in s t y o u . T h a n k y o u C h a i r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u v e ry m u c h . I t h in k M r M a n y i I m u s t e x c u s e
y o u b e c a u s e y o u m ig h t h a v e to ru n . S o y o u a re e x c u s e d . Ye s .
M s H o fm e y r y o u p ro b a b ly n e e d to s a y s o m e th in g a b o u t M s O l ip h a n t , 10
b e c a u s e w e s p o k e y e s te rd a y o n th e b a s i s t h a t s h e w o u ld a p p e a r t o d a y
. . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
C H A IR P E R S O N : A n d th e p u b l i c m a y b e w o n d e r in g .
A D V H O F M E Y R : H ’m m . I n d e e d C h a i r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : Yo u w a n t t o p la c e s o m e th in g o n re c o rd ?
A D V H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . J u s t t o c la r i f y.
C H A IR P E R S O N : H ’m m .
A D V H O F M E Y R : W h e n I r e fe r re d y e s te rd a y to t h e fa c t t h a t s h e w o u ld
b e g i v in g e v id e n c e a n d I t h in k I i n d i c a te d to d a y th a t w a s b a s e d o n a n 20
a s s u m p t io n th a t I h e ld a t t h e t im e . T h a t t h e n e c e s s a ry a r ra n g e m e n ts
h a d b e e n m a d e w i th M s O l ip h a n t f o r h e r t o a p p e a r t o d a y. A t t h e
c o n c lu s io n o f y e s te rd a y ’s h e a r in g I w a s i n fo rm e d th a t t h a t h a d n o t i n
f a c t t a k e n p la c e .
T h e re h a v e b e e n re g u la r e n g a g e m e n ts o r a t t e m p ts a t
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e n g a g in g w i th M s O l ip h a n t . T h e l a s t o f t h o s e I a m – I u n d e rs ta n d h a v e
n o t b e e n re s p o n d e d to b y M s O l ip h a n t a n d th a t i s w h y w e f i n d
o u rs e l v e s i n t h e p o s i t i o n w h e re I h a d a s s u m e d th e re h a d b e e n c o n ta c t .
A s a m a t te r o f f a c t I u n d e rs ta n d th a t d e s p i te re p e a te d a t t e m p ts t o m a k e
c o n ta c t w i th h e r t h e re h a s n o t b e e n c o n ta c t .
T h e c o n s e q u e n c e o f t h a t i s t h a t s h e i s n o t h e re to d a y to g i v e
e v id e n c e , b u t c e r ta in l y m y p ro p o s a l i s t h a t s te p s b e ta k e n to e n s u re
th a t s h e d o e s g i v e e v id e n c e o n th e im p o r ta n t m a t te r s w e h a v e b e e n
a d d re s s in g y e s te rd a y a n d to d a y.
C H A IR P E R S O N : N o . T h a t i s f i n e . S o th e m a t te r m u s t r e c e i v e fu r th e r 10
c o n s id e ra t i o n . A l l o b v io u s l y a l s o t a k in g i n to a c c o u n t y e s te rd a y ’s
e v id e n c e a n d to d a y ’s e v id e n c e i n s o fa r a s i t m a y b e re le v a n t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a i r.
C H A IR P E R S O N : W e a re g o in g to a d jo u rn . A t t h i s s ta g e w e c e r ta in l y
a re n o t s i t t i n g t o m o r ro w a n d a t t h i s s ta g e w e a re n o t s i t t i n g n e x t w e e k ,
b e c a u s e n e x t w e e k w a s s e t a s id e fo r t h e fu r th e r a p p e a ra n c e o f t h e
fo rm e r P re s id e n t w h o w i l l n o t b e a p p e a r in g fo r h i s r e a s o n s th a t h a v e
b e e n g i v e n p u b l i c a l l y, b u t s h o u ld t h e re b e s o m e d a y s n e x t w e e k th a t
w i l l b e u s e d fo r t h e h e a r in g . T h e p u b l i c w i l l b e i n fo rm e d .
W e a d jo u rn . 20
R E G IS T R A R : A l l r i s e .
IN Q U IRY A D J O U R N S S IN E D IE
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TRANSCRIBER’S CERTIFICATE FOR COMMISSION OF INQUIRY INTO STATE CAPTURE HELD AT
BRAAMFONTEIN, JOHANNESBURG
DATE HELD : 2019-11-07
DAY: : 188
TRANSCRIBERS : B KLINE; M NETTA; D STANIFORTH
Audio’s are typed verbatim, as far as audible/possible